XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Hibiki]

Jukain

Noone runs mixed Luke.

Hi. Mixed Luke user here. I won every game straight from like 1300 to 1700 with a team that incorporated mixed luke as a cleaner. People expect special after a flash cannon and get mauled by CC. It greatly upsets me that nothing fits the mixed M-luke role (even a less superior version) other than the base 91-speed regular luke. :(

 

[Impy]

Hi. Mixed Luke user here. I won every game straight from like 1300 to 1700 with a team that incorporated mixed luke as a cleaner. People expect special after a flash cannon and get mauled by CC. It greatly upsets me that nothing fits the mixed M-luke role (even a less superior version) other than the base 91-speed regular luke. :(

Same here. +1 Flash Cannon off of Adaptability isn't something to be underestimated, and High Jump Kick, with 10 more base power, does what Close Combat does on the physical set. People really shouldn't underestimate it.

 

[Clone]

70/88/70 defense is not that frail. It's not great, but those defensive stats aren't too shabby. Obviously, M-Lucario can't tank SE hits, but he can definitely take a hit and be okay. Combined with his great defensive typing, M-Lucario is NOT frail. Close Combat makes him more frail, yes, but that's after he's smacked something hard and CC is not applicable to his specially offensive sets. Vacuum wave may be his only special priority attack, but many pokemon don't get priority at all. M-Lucario not only has the luxury of STAB priority, but that STAB is further strengthened from his ability and he can pick from THREE different types of priority attacks, Bullet Punch, Extremespeed, and Vacuum wave. How many pokemon can claim that they have three different forms of priority? Two of which are STAB. Since he has 3 different types of priority, it makes him harder to revenge kill than your run-of-the-mill sweeper.

Your "cons" for M-Lucario aren't really cons.


I doubt something like Scarfed Terrakion can take on a +2 Bullet Punch/Vacuum wave. For the other scarfed pokemon, a +2 hit from M-Lucario would hurt like heck and they're unlikely to survive if they're not completely healthy.


You're basically making the slippery slope argument. "If we ban A, we might continue and ban B later!" The slippery slope argument is not only weak, but it misses the point of balancing. We balance the game to prevent over-centralizing Pokemon from dominating the metagame. You sway no one when you argue that some other Mega pokemon might get banned after M-Lucario.

I specifically said that I wasnt trying to sway anyones opinions. And most Physical variants of Luke run Extreme Speed over Bullet Punch anyways

 

[Doctor Swagmoar]

Long time lurker here.

Just thought I'd pop in and raise the question (in case it hadn't already been raised before) that Deoxy-s and Deoxy-d are both currently sitting in the UU tier. The question of banning them from OU should not ever arise before at least giving them conditional OU status, otherwise the tiering procedure is circumvented, not based around the system itself, but based on how everyone is "feeling" at the moment. This very practice of giving special treatment to Pokemon every once and awhile undermines the integrity of the tiering procedure altogether since it raises a very important question about adherence to tiering protocol. If something is indeed worthy of a ban from OU, people would be actually using it in OU, and it would literally be OU. Simple logic.

Stealth Rocks are nothing new at all. They are expected on every higher team and they've been around for years. Not only that, but we have now an additional rapid spin in the form of Defog. If the argument over banning Deoxy-s truly surrounds it's capacity to set up residuals, or taunt, only to die, and then get finished off with priority and defog or rapid spinned anyway, then I completely fail to see how that could ever define a Pokemon Uber. Residual is overrated, and you the future of the meta-game should not be based around the usage of Spikes.

 

[Hibiki]

The set I run on Luke is:

strong furry (BAN ME PLEASE) (Lucario) @ Lucarionite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Vacuum Wave

I feel like I can share this because Luke's getting the boot soon, but anything you had to boost for is usually hit hard by the other side. Come in on something you can threaten, aggressively predict the switch and 2HKO it. I chose this set because I felt the NP set had to choose between a strong fighting STAB (part of the strategy my team was built around), priority (which I really wanted for the team) and coverage. The SD set had all of this as a luxury but my team really needed the fighting priority, so after attempting a non-boosting special set (did not hit nearly hard enough, being checked by heatran and ttar of all things) I switched to this. CC mauls everything even without investment, and everything else hits hard on what it needs to.

This set was the most unpredictable of them all. When facing Luke, you already have a 50/50 on guessing physical/special, so no one expected both. I could reveal part of my set as I saw fit and then catch them off guard (no one ever expected it. ever. 100% success rate) with the other side, while still enjoying the luxury of OHKOing other lukes with Vacuum wave and everything else that came with it.

I chose -Def over -SpD because the only relevant differences between the two were uninvested Gliscor (not common), Conkuldurr (probably still fails to OHKO) and Scarf Gene (who fails to OHKO at +0 with flamethrower).

I'm not sure how much of that is relevant to luke getting the boot but this set was better than his overpowering ones, at least for me.

This is the last I will comment on Luke. He should get banned, I will vote for his ban and he will get banned.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Long time lurker here.

Just thought I'd pop in and raise the question (in case it hadn't already been raised before) that Deoxy-s and Deoxy-d are both currently sitting in the UU tier. The question of banning them from OU should not ever arise before at least giving them conditional OU status, otherwise the tiering procedure is circumvented, not based around the system itself, but based on how everyone is "feeling" at the moment. This very practice of giving special treatment to Pokemon every once and awhile undermines the integrity of the tiering procedure altogether since it raises a very important question about adherence to tiering protocol. If something is indeed worthy of a ban from OU, people would be actually using it in OU, and it would literally be OU. Simple logic.

That is false logic. If a pokemon is overpowered it is overpowered, it doesn't HAVE to be used by the masses to be so. A pokemon could be overpowered but have a high skill-cap to use correctly, and so a lot of players would then avoid using it. Also just going to point out that many viable and amazing pokemon are currently in UU. People still have new toy syndrome as well. There is a lot of factors that go into usage. Usage doesn't mean=powerful. It means people use it. Now people tend to use what is powerful, but that is not always the case. Deoxys-S is one of those cases.

 

[Always!]

PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS ONLY COVERS LUKE

Im gonna start out with my experience as a competitive player. I play Showdown for fun, and lately Ive been getting into competitive discussions on Serebii forums. I consider myself fairly decent, but nowhere near the best. If I run into a good player, then I will get demolished. While I dont have the expertise of many of the vets, I still think what I have to say should be considered. On to my main point.

Mega Luke. Many people say that he should be banned. Do I agree? Maybe. Is he good? Yes. Is he OP? Debatable. Lets consider the facts:

Pros:
Adaptability
Base 112 Speed
base 145/140 offenses
High Powered STAB moves
Somewhat unpredictable

Cons:
Frail. Very frail, especially after Close Combat
Vaccuum Wave is the only Priority for the special set, which isnt the best move in the game.
Easily revenge killed

Lets go on to revenge killing. It has been a staple part of competitive play that you need a revenge killer. Some examples include Scarfed Terrakion, ScarfChomp, Special Scarf Genesect, Ditto, and Talonflame. With mega Lucario, anything faster than him that holds a scarf is usually enough to eat up a priority move and KO with a strong STAB move.

Yes, Mega Lucario can sweep teams. Hes a sweeper. Its his job. Most teams, unless theyre stall, should always pack a revenge killer. Scarfers have been part of the Metagame since Gen 4, when the item was released. Most scarfers, like I said before, can usually eat up a Bullet Punch/Extreme Speed/Vaccum Wave, even at +2.

With that out of the way, theres no real counters other than Aegislash, which is 3HKOd from either side and KOs with Sacred Sword, and Mega Venusaur. That in itself is a reason for him to be banned, since he has only a few hard counters, only checks. So theres the arguements against him, lets look at what happens next.

Next, lets say he IS banned. Whos next? Megas such as Mawile, Charizard (both) Venusaur, and Pinsir will come up to the stage. All of these Pokemon are very good megas that are under the shadows of Luke, just like Luke was under the shadows of Kanga and Gengar when they were still allowed.

Mawile has an attack stat of over 600 when fully invested in attack. What walls that? Nothing really. The only hard counter that can really be found is a ghost relinquished to UU last gen.. Cofagrigus (who also walls Luke). His Mummy ability allows him to for Mawile out, since she loses Huge Power on contact. Since noone uses Cofagrigus, hes considered an obscure counter. Sucker punch is also given to Mawile, bypassing her terrible speed. this allows her to hit would be checks and kill them before they can kill her. Now that Ive said this, Ill get to the point.

Why bring up other megas, when Luke is the one at large? The answer is simple. Once Hes gone, others will take his place, untill most of the viable Megas are banned for eternity. Luke was under the shadows of Kanga and Gengar, and there are very good megas that are in his shadow.

Just remember that Luke cant do shit to something that can eat up an extreme speed and KO it back that holds a Scarf. The metagame can adapt. It has before, and it can do it again. Scarf= GG Luke

Im not trying to sway anyones opinions, but please consider that all this trash talk will happen again once round two comes in and the other megas are put into the spotlight.

Final verdict on Luke: My vote says no.

Sadly enough, that won't happen. There is no such thing as a non-viable Mega, each has at least one single advantage to the normal version, and that sets it apart. They won't ban Mawile. Why? Too slow, and Sucker punch doesn't get around burns. Pinsir? A great Mega, but rocks weakness that gets bigger puts on pressure on you're side of the field to keep them off. Both Charizards are mauled by rocks, same as Pinsir.

You can't ban something just because it seems to be the best at the moment, no, fuck that. We wouldn't have any actual pokemon then, or consider everything overpowered. Mega Lucario is manageable to certain styles, such as HO, which many still run. Tell me, if Lucario doesn't have that Base 112 speed, It won't threaten much, and on HO, it won't get that critical chance. Stall? Stall gets demolished by Luke, yeah. That is how it sets up, and why you can consider a ban.

What Clonebalzer12 said, you need to adapt to it, Mega Lucario has an extreme strength in its power, but people still adapt. Mega Luke isn't aways going to sweep teams, but if you don't pack a revenge killer, you will get wrecked, same as anything. My personal opinon is that it shouldn't be banned, simply because the meta will adapt to it (and already is), and that it isn't like Mega Kangashkhan, that had 3 Counters, which got demolished if the user feels frisky, and decides to run a move that completely destroys that counter E.g. Facade, which was insane.

I'm fine with it getting banned, but it won't work out the way you say it will, that all "viable megas" will be banned.

Same here. +1 Flash Cannon off of Adaptability isn't something to be underestimated, and High Jump Kick, with 10 more base power, does what Close Combat does on the physical set. People really shouldn't underestimate it.

Also, I forgot to address this important fact. As most can see here, people do run mixed luke. I also am apart of the people who used Mix Mega Luke. It is insane how that it can clean extremely efficiently, and the set demolishes stuff like Goodra/Blissey, that attempts to full stop it, only to get #rekt.

Edit: Whoever modded this, sorry, and thanks. Gonna try not to double post again :P

 

[sidakarya]

Noone runs mixed Luke. And you completely missed the point. Revenge killing is always necessary. Otherwise, what stops a SD Jolly Garchomp from sweeping a team? The first thing that comes to mind is Mamoswine. I know youre too adamant to have your opinion swayed, but at least consider the facts.

The metagame adapted to the so called OP rain. People complained, but they adapted. Its really not that hard to adapt to something once you know how to beat it.

I run mixed Luke. It's great for playing mindgames with potential counters. It's hilarious to see an AV Goodra eat a CC, when they send it out seeing NP or Flash Cannon expecting a pure special set.

And as for the rain in Gen 5, that is a really bad example. By the end of Gen 5 were there a lot of ill feelings about Drizzle in general, and that it should have been suspect-tested in general, instead of keeping Aldaron's proposal.

Mega Luke. Many people say that he should be banned. Do I agree? Maybe. Is he good? Yes. Is he OP? Debatable. Lets consider the facts:

Pros:
Adaptability
Base 112 Speed
base 145/140 offenses
High Powered STAB moves
Somewhat unpredictable

Cons:
Frail. Very frail, especially after Close Combat
Vaccuum Wave is the only Priority for the special set, which isnt the best move in the game.
Easily revenge killed

Those cons aren't really very honest imo. Lucario doesn't have the best defences in the world, but it has enough to, for example, survive uninvested Zapdos' Heat Wave and Gliscor's Earthquake. You say, that it's easily revenge-killed, but the problem with saying that is that same priority, along with its godlike speed, that you mentioned keeps things from revenging it. Physical Lucario even gets Extremespeed, meaning that not even Talonflame can safely kill it. As for Scarfers with enough speed to outrun 112 base speed... I really doubt, there are many, who can take priority at +2 (which by and by, you have to assume as a matter of course seeing as how easy it is to boost)

Next, lets say he IS banned. Whos next? Megas such as Mawile, Charizard (both) Venusaur, and Pinsir will come up to the stage. All of these Pokemon are very good megas that are under the shadows of Luke, just like Luke was under the shadows of Kanga and Gengar when they were still allowed.

Mawile has an attack stat of over 600 when fully invested in attack. What walls that? Nothing really. The only hard counter that can really be found is a ghost relinquished to UU last gen.. Cofagrigus (who also walls Luke). His Mummy ability allows him to for Mawile out, since she loses Huge Power on contact. Since noone uses Cofagrigus, hes considered an obscure counter. Sucker punch is also given to Mawile, bypassing her terrible speed. this allows her to hit would be checks and kill them before they can kill her. Now that Ive said this, Ill get to the point.

Why bring up other megas, when Luke is the one at large? The answer is simple. Once Hes gone, others will take his place, untill most of the viable Megas are banned for eternity. Luke was under the shadows of Kanga and Gengar, and there are very good megas that are in his shadow.

As an avid Mawile user, I have to really disagree with Mawile being as unstoppable as you make it seem. It is ridiculously powerful, but without Substitute, it is very vulnerable to burn and is fairly reliant on Sucker Punch. Sub sets are more flexible and don't have the burn problem (and beats Heatran), but without the power afforded by SD, you get walled by more things like M-Venusaur. There are always a few things, that can stop either version (Gliscor, Landorus-T, Bulky Garchomp, even Rotom-W). All this means, Mawile is extremely threatening, but balanced. This cannot be said for M-Lucario, who has wildly different checks for physical and special versions and their sub-variants with different coverage moves. And then there are the mixed versions, which you pretty much can't answer with anything but Zapdos (it really loves those Dark Pulse flinches...)

You can make similar points about most other powerful megas. Pinsir has very defined counters and checks and is behindered by Stealth Rock. Charizard is harder to guess, but it is possible with telling clues as what it switches into, and it also is kept back by Stealth Rock. And so on. And really, all the megas are not going to be banned. This came up during the Khan discussion and it gets really tiring. M-Lucario is a long way away from M-Gardevoir.

 

[alexwolf]

So, just to clarify, do the people that find Deoxys-S broken, find its Lead, Attacker, or the combo of both broken? Because each single set is not broken on its own. Laurel said that offensive Deo-S is impossible to switch into, which simply isn't true. Aegislash, Slowbro, Mega Mawile, BU Talonflame, SpD Skarmory, Goodra, AV Tangrowth, AV Azumarill, Jirachi, and SpD Celebi are just some of its solid checks/counters. And even if you can't fit one of those for some reason, no worries. Deo-S is very easy to revenge kill with Talonflame, CB Dragonite, CB Azumarill, Bisharp, and other strong priority users, as its mediocre bulk, lack of resistances, and vulnerability to all kinds of passive damage make it very easy to wear down and pick off with priority. Not to mention that two of its moves, inlcuding its only STAB move, have severe drawbacks, which make it very prediction reliant and very easy to revenge kill or force out. If it kills something with Superpower it dies horribly to priority. If it kills something with Psycho Boost, it is forced out. And that's in the best case scenarion, assuming the Deo-S player predicts correctly and doesn't drop its Atk / SpA before it KOes the Pokemon it needs them for. And it's not like Deo-S gets many switch-in chances, due to its mediocre bulk and lack of resistances, so it usually only gets 1-2 switch in chances to do its job.

So, between its plethora of checks and counters, vulnerability to priority, lack of switch-in chances, and reliance on moves with drawbacks, Deo-S is not broken at all as an all out attacker. It's just a great revenge killer and a good cleaner, that definitely needs a lot of support in order to clean up.

As for the lead set, i really don't get how someone can find it broken. Most of the time it's job is to set up SR while preventing you from setting up SR. So, guaranteed SR is now broken? There are many other good leads that can consistenly set up SR, prevent the opponent from doing so, and even fare better against Rapid Spiners. Sash Aerodactyl gets outsped only by Deo-S, has both Taunt + SR, and can even beat the most common spinner, Excadrill with either Earthquake or Fire Blast (depending on if it has Air Balloon or not), while not getting fucked up by Tyranitar, which limits Deo-S to only SR (while it can set up SR after Deo-S dies, thanks to its own Sash). Taunt + SR Terrakion is in a similar boat, being an excellent SR setter than can prevent every single spinner / Defog user from getting rid of SR, which can actually check dangerous offensive threats (Mega Char Y, Genesect, Volcarona, and Heatran), unlike Deo-S. Yeah, Deo-S doesn't always have to lead, but if the opponent sets up SR before Deo-S comes in, then your Sash is useless and you can get OHKOed by plenty of offensive Pokemon. And it's not like Pokemon such as Lati@s and Excadrill can't find time to get rid of SR against offensive teams, as both check a multitude of offensive Pokemon. Yeah, Lati@s can possibly give to Bisharp a +2 boost, but Latias can as easily use Healing Wish after it gets rid of SR to bring in a faster Pokemon than Bisharp which resists Sucker Punch, such as Greninja, Choice Scarf Tyranitar, Terrakion, Keldeo, or Infernape. Or the Lati@s user could just pack a Bisharp counter. Or predict the Bisharp switch and use Hidden Power Fire. So all in all, the battle of getting rid of SR is really not that hard, not to mention that even if you don't manage to get rid of SR, it's not that big of a deal, and as i already said, other Pokemon can already do this.

Finally, i don't believe that the versatility granted by having two great and very different sets makes Deo-S broken. The lead set is fairly easy to spot, as it usually leads, and its team often lacks another SR user, which makes it incredibly obvious it's the lead set. And even if the opponent somehow manages to surprise you with their Deo-S, it's not like you will pay a big price. If you confused a lead set for an attacking set, then the opponent will simply set up one more layer of hazards, which is not hard at all to get rid of later, and if you confused the attacking set for a lead set, at worse you will lose a Pokemon, assuming you didn't first scout Deo-S's set with your check/counter, which is always an option. So, no matter what, you have the option of finding out Deo-S set with minor losses.

For those reasons, my opinion is that Deoxys-S is not broken.

Oh, and Jukain, the GtG vs idiotfrommars game is really not a good example to showcase Deo-S's brokeness, as the team who lost had no way at all to deal with hazards and no solid answer to Mega Lucario.

 

[Always!]

Snip

Generally, most people tend to see Deo-S as broken as an direct consequence of its high speed.

High Speed = Revenge kill about anything - Nightmare for HO teams

High Speed = Guaranteed layer of Hazards/Screens, and can Taunt defoggers and other leads.

This is the simplified version of it, as Deo-S is the best Hazard/Screen Setter for HO, and Offensive variants do amazingly against other HO teams. Deo-S fails against Bulky Offense and Stall, but it still has its niche of being arguably the best Hazard Setter in the game.

 

[JackTheGordie]

Long time lurker here.

Just thought I'd pop in and raise the question (in case it hadn't already been raised before) that Deoxy-s and Deoxy-d are both currently sitting in the UU tier. The question of banning them from OU should not ever arise before at least giving them conditional OU status, otherwise the tiering procedure is circumvented, not based around the system itself, but based on how everyone is "feeling" at the moment. This very practice of giving special treatment to Pokemon every once and awhile undermines the integrity of the tiering procedure altogether since it raises a very important question about adherence to tiering protocol. If something is indeed worthy of a ban from OU, people would be actually using it in OU, and it would literally be OU. Simple logic.

Stealth Rocks are nothing new at all. They are expected on every higher team and they've been around for years. Not only that, but we have now an additional rapid spin in the form of Defog. If the argument over banning Deoxy-s truly surrounds it's capacity to set up residuals, or taunt, only to die, and then get finished off with priority and defog or rapid spinned anyway, then I completely fail to see how that could ever define a Pokemon Uber. Residual is overrated, and you the future of the meta-game should not be based around the usage of Spikes.

Another point, deoxys-s isn't even UU now. It got quickbanned to BL some time ago. And his testing isn't just about his semi guarnteed 2 layers of hazards. It has to do alot with his offensive pressure aswell.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

I specifically said that I wasnt trying to sway anyones opinions. And most Physical variants of Luke run Extreme Speed over Bullet Punch anyways

Just the fact that you don't want to change other peoples' opinions doesn't mean that they can't argue with yours.
And Mega Lucario almost always runs Bullet Punch over Extremespeed (I've never been clear on exactly why).

 

[sidakarya]

Just the fact that you don't want to change other peoples' opinions doesn't mean that they can't argue with yours.
And Mega Lucario almost always runs Bullet Punch over Extremespeed (I've never been clear on exactly why).

I actually see a lot of M-Lukes with Extremespeed. I would say, it's better, because it keeps Talonflame from revenge-killing it.

 

[effyouzion]

I don't really think Gene should be banned. He's a staple of the meta game, but he's never the most dangerous threat on a team. I think he fits well in OU.

Mega Luc should probably be banned just because he makes it near impossible to cover your team defensively. He just destroys stall.

Deoxys-S is weird in that there's really no other mon even close to his speed. Even scarfers and certain +1 mons can't outrun him. I think he could be banned because he's such an outlier, but if he stays it's not really a big deal either since few people use him.

 

[Django]

Lucario @ Lucarionite
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Close Combat
- Flash Cannon
- Extreme Speed
- Work Up

Like outside of Aegislash (which isn't too hard to wear down) what actually beats this set ?_?

?_________?

 

[Always!]

?_________?

That set is actually interesting. Problem is, +2 is preferred, but I think that set could possibly define "lategame".

 

[TooMuchSugar]

I actually see a lot of M-Lukes with Extremespeed. I would say, it's better, because it keeps Talonflame from revenge-killing it.

Fair enough, I checked the usage stats and they're pretty close (53% BP and 44% ESpeed). So I guess it's a lot more significant than I thought, which makes sense because I've never been able to figure out why bullet punch is better.

I don't really think Gene should be banned. He's a staple of the meta game, but he's never the most dangerous threat on a team. I think he fits well in OU.

Mega Luc should probably be banned just because he makes it near impossible to cover your team defensively. He just destroys stall.

Deoxys-S is weird in that there's really no other mon even close to his speed. Even scarfers and certain +1 mons can't outrun him. I think he could be banned because he's such an outlier, but if he stays it's not really a big deal either since few people use him.

Deoxys-S's outlier speed is not a reason to ban it outright unless that speed is shown to make it broken. On the other hand, the fact that he is (criminally) underused is not a good reason to keep him in OU. Please come up with some more interesting arguments.

 

[TheMohZone]

Fair enough, I checked the usage stats and they're pretty close (53% BP and 44% ESpeed). So I guess it's a lot more significant than I thought, which makes sense because I've never been able to figure out why bullet punch is better.



Deoxys-S's outlier speed is not a reason to ban it outright unless that speed is shown to make it broken. On the other hand, the fact that he is (criminally) underused is not a good reason to keep him in OU. Please come up with some more interesting arguments.

Alexwolfs post sums it up nicely so read that,

 

[JackTheGordie]

snip

Even though i personally could go either way in terms of thinking deo-s is broken or not, i can totally understand why people think, as they tend to have the better arguements, he is broken. His unrivaled speed letting him do anything from setting up 1st turn or mid game hazards, having the fastest non priority taunt possible, and the seemingly deadly LO attacker set, make him pretty dangerous. And you can't talk about him w/o mentioning deoSharp. Just the presence of a +2 bisharp with a free turn to knock off or get +4 after is extremely scary. So to your answer your question, it's quite possibly the fear of either set and it's consequences of getting cleaned up without any priority alive or staring down a +2 bisharp with another free turn. And to all people asking why deo-s isn't OU, i'm just as curious.

Edit: lol messed up with the quoting. But everything under snip is what i said and think.

 

[Laurel]

So, just to clarify, do the people that find Deoxys-S broken, find its Lead, Attacker, or the combo of both broken? Because each single set is not broken on its own. Laurel said that offensive Deo-S is impossible to switch into, which simply isn't true. Aegislash, Slowbro, Mega Mawile, BU Talonflame, SpD Skarmory, Goodra, AV Tangrowth, AV Azumarill, Jirachi, and SpD Celebi are just some of its solid checks/counters.

You definitely make a great argument, but I waned to point out that half the pokemon you listed should not be considered on most OU teams. Jirachi in this gen is mediocre, same with Celebi, Slowbro isn't great, Goodra is built for UU but is stuck in OU for now, i've never seen an AV Azumarill, w/ that it becomes weak and cant Belly Drum which is the main reason to use it.

Truthfully, you can slap on an assault vest to anything not taking super effective from Psycho Boost, and it can check it, but isn't that you going out of your way to check one pokemon? Also, now that I think about it AV Tangrowth is sad to imagine... no leech seed or sleep powder?

Mega Mawile and Aegislash I believe are the most legitimate checks. Talon can't take a LO Psycho Boost after rocks and it can't take PB + Extreme Speed w.o rocks. SpDef Skarmory I think is a waste this gen because if you're running Skarmory you probably need it to check like Mega Heracross, Pinsir, or Gyarados, and the SpDef sets are destroyed by a boosted attack by any of those.

Mega Mawile and Aegislash both do not want to switch into a fire punch, but I will acknowledge that overall they are fantastic checks. My problem is you just listed a ton of checks to Deoxys-S, but none of them besides Mawile and Aegislash are actually that viable (Please do not source the viability rankings, please no).

I'm just going to source the cresselia argument for checking Landoris-I last gen. If you are running Cress in OU (which was just recked by CB ttar) is it really worth saying it's a check because it disadvantages the rest of your team.

Again I say, Ban. :]

 

[JackTheGordie]

Jukain
I'd run calcs but i'm on mobile, but wouldn't standard defensive slowbro be a decent counter to your WU 3 Attacks set, even at+1?

 

[TheMohZone]

Even though i personally could go either way in terms of thinking deo-s is broken or mot, i can totally understand why people think, as they tend to have the better arguments, he is broken. His unrivaled speed letting him do anything from setting up 1st turn or mid game hazards, having the fastest non priority taunt possible, and the seemingly deadly LO attacker set, make him pretty dangerous. And you can't talk about him w/o mentioning deoSharp. Just the presence of a +2 bisharp with a free turn to knock off or get +4 after is extremely scary. So to your answer your question, it's quite possibly the fear of either set and it's consequences of getting cleaned up without any priority alive or staring down a +2 bisharp with another free turn. And to all people asking why deo-s isn't OU, i'm just as curious.

using the Core is another bad example. mainly because whos the problem there, Deo-S or Bisharp? its Bisharp, he's the one sweeping teams with the boost, not Deoxys, Deo-D and Garchomp (To a lesser extent) would take its place. and although the core is good i also feel its not broken, Its still quad weak to fighting and Conkeldurr is a thing and he takes Sharp to town on the revenge, along with anything that can live a +2 sucker punch and retaliate with a fighting move, which is a bit. the core is not busted and if thats the best argument for Deo-s than its not busted either.

You definitely make a great argument, but I waned to point out that half the pokemon you listed should not be considered on most OU teams. Jirachi in this gen is mediocre, same with Celebi, Slowbro isn't great, Goodra is built for UU but is stuck in OU for now, i've never seen an AV Azumarill, w/ that it becomes weak and cant Belly Drum which is the main reason to use it.

Truthfully, you can slap on an assault vest to anything not taking super effective from Psycho Boost, and it can check it, but isn't that you going out of your way to check one pokemon? Also, now that I think about it AV Tangrowth is sad to imagine... no leech seed or sleep powder?

Mega Mawile and Aegislash I believe are the most legitimate checks. Talon can't take a LO Psycho Boost after rocks and it can't take PB + Extreme Speed w.o rocks. SpDef Skarmory I think is a waste this gen because if you're running Skarmory you probably need it to check like Mega Heracross, Pinsir, or Gyarados, and the SpDef sets are destroyed by a boosted attack by any of those.

Mega Mawile and Aegislash both do not want to switch into a fire punch, but I will acknowledge that overall they are fantastic checks. My problem is you just listed a ton of checks to Deoxys-S, but none of them besides Mawile and Aegislash are actually that viable (Please do not source the viability rankings, please no).

I'm just going to source the cresselia argument for checking Landoris-I last gen. If you are running Cress in OU (which was just recked by CB ttar) is it really worth saying it's a check because it disadvantages the rest of your team.

Again I say, Ban. :]

Red is where i should have stopped reading. BellyJet Azu is mediocre at best, its best set is still band, it just has that beautiful typing now. Also your dismissal of Slowbro and Tangrowth because of Assault Vest is appalling. its the same concept as Conk, they still heal off with the Vest Equipped and patch up their weaker defence. Slowbro especially makes good use of it. Celebi is also surprisingly good in a meta ran by flying and ghost. its not as good but its still OU viable. Jirachi makes for an excellent scarfer, its still has 100 stats all around, although it is worse now. These pokemon have valuable niches in OU right now (Ironically the ones you bashed most are most viable)

you also seem to assume Deo-S will guess right on the switch, although it can deal with everything in the meta, most well built teams have 3-4 checks and a bunch of priority its pathetic Espeed can't kill. i compare it to Hydreigon last gen. its got something for everything but its more than manageable.

 

[alexwolf]

You definitely make a great argument, but I waned to point out that half the pokemon you listed should not be considered on most OU teams. Jirachi in this gen is mediocre, same with Celebi, Slowbro isn't great, Goodra is built for UU but is stuck in OU for now, i've never seen an AV Azumarill, w/ that it becomes weak and cant Belly Drum which is the main reason to use it.

Truthfully, you can slap on an assault vest to anything not taking super effective from Psycho Boost, and it can check it, but isn't that you going out of your way to check one pokemon? Also, now that I think about it AV Tangrowth is sad to imagine... no leech seed or sleep powder?

Mega Mawile and Aegislash I believe are the most legitimate checks. Talon can't take a LO Psycho Boost after rocks and it can't take PB + Extreme Speed w.o rocks. SpDef Skarmory I think is a waste this gen because if you're running Skarmory you probably need it to check like Mega Heracross, Pinsir, or Gyarados, and the SpDef sets are destroyed by a boosted attack by any of those.

Mega Mawile and Aegislash both do not want to switch into a fire punch, but I will acknowledge that overall they are fantastic checks. My problem is you just listed a ton of checks to Deoxys-S, but none of them besides Mawile and Aegislash are actually that viable (Please do not source the viability rankings, please no).

I'm just going to source the cresselia argument for checking Landoris-I last gen. If you are running Cress in OU (which was just recked by CB ttar) is it really worth saying it's a check because it disadvantages the rest of your team.

Again I say, Ban. :]

You don't put Assault Vest on Tangrowth or Azumarill specifically to deal with Deo-S, you do it to deal with a multitude of offensive threats. For example, did you know that max HP / max SpD+ AV Tangrowth takes ~72% damage on average from +2 Mega Lucarios's Aura Shpere, 31.5% from 252 SpA+ Aegislash's Shadow Ball, and always survives a +3 Ice Beam by Timid Lefties Manaphy after SR and OHKOes back with Leaf Storm? Also, even without Sleep Powder or Leech Seed, Tangrowth is fairly difficult to switch in due to its plethora of attacking options (Leaf Storm, EQ, Focus Blast, Rock Slide, Hidden Power), great attacking stats, and Knock Off.

SpD Talonflame can take a Psycho Boost and use priority Roost to heal before it takes the second hit (i rarely see ES on offensive Deo-S, and imo it's not worth it as you sacrifice invaluable coverage), though it's true that it dies if SR is up. This is half a check i guess, as SR will sometimes be up and some others not.

Also, both Mega Mawile and Aegislash avoid the 2HKO from Fire Punch, and Mega Mawile also has Sucker Punch to OHKO, so they can counter Deo-S at least once.

Celebi is not a great Pokemon true, but it's definitely an option for some teams. It still checks a lot of Pokemon, sand and rain teams, is a good pivot with U-turn, a great SR setter, and fits nicely on some volt-turn teams so you shouldn't dismiss him.

Slowbro is a great Pokemon in this metagame, as it checks a ton of physical sweepers, including both Mega Lucario sets (with Assault Vest), can keep momentum easily with Regenerator, and has decent firepower with 100 SpA and some high powered moves, such as Ice Beam and Fire Blast. Slowbro is definitely a viable option to deal with Deo-S.

Finally, you may not like SpD Skarmory, but it's certainly a viable set, as it still handles many physical threats while also walling most Mega Venusaur, Tornadus-S, Lati@s, CM Clefable, Alakazam, and Deo-S, and a few other special attackers.

So, if you take into account some of those Pokemon which you know are viable (otherwise you have too strict criteria, as those Pokemon are generally accepted as very viable choices), such as Slowbro and Celebi, and some others which you may not have tried or seen used against you by a decent opponent but which are also viable (AV Azumarill and AV Tangrowth), you will see that offensive Deo-S has sufficient checks and counters.

 

[effyouzion]

Fair enough, I checked the usage stats and they're pretty close (53% BP and 44% ESpeed). So I guess it's a lot more significant than I thought, which makes sense because I've never been able to figure out why bullet punch is better.



Deoxys-S's outlier speed is not a reason to ban it outright unless that speed is shown to make it broken. On the other hand, the fact that he is (criminally) underused is not a good reason to keep him in OU. Please come up with some more interesting arguments.

Those are perfectly good reasons. His outlier speed means he's kryptonite to hyper offense. He destroys HO almost as well as mega Luc destroys stall.

 

[TheMohZone]

Those are perfectly good reasons. His outlier speed means he's kryptonite to hyper offense. He destroys HO almost as well as mega Luc destroys stall.

Wut? Deo-S is one of the biggest ASSETS to HO right now. If your running HO without Deo-S your probably doing it wrong.