Being easily revenge killed doesn't make it instantly not broken, but it's not broken ahead of time because, as has been said before, 90% of the time Deoxys-S is itself restricted to revenge killing. So basically it can usually only come in on a revenge kill, and then it's easy to force it out right away after it gets the kill. Lucario can switch in on a lot of stuff and will sweep you if you fail to revenge kill it (Deoxys almost never gets more than two kills in a row even if it isn't revenged because of the stat drops caused by its best moves). So while revenge killing didn't save Lucario, it is a major factor in keeping Deoxys-S unbroken.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)
- Thread starter Aldaron
- Start date
- Status
It's not even just revenge killing,a lot of mons can switch into Deo-s, take it's hits (coverage depending, lets assume fire punch and ice beam) and scare it out. Read through the last few pages to get an idea.
Landorus, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Dragonite, Salamence, Tyranitar, most Genesect, Keldeo, most Terrakion, Gengar, Excadrill are all on HO teams and are basically free kills. Then there's mons like CharX and CharY which die with some prior damage. Oh, and even +1 CharX/Dragonite/Salamence and scarf Garchomp are out ran by Deo-S.
Other stuff like Thundurus and mega Luc can do some damage themselves but are going to die in the process.
You're overestimating the power of revenge killing. Revenging those things is great, but not broken when you can be forced out again by some of the most common stuff in the meta.
(also landorus wins if it's used rock polish, which is pretty standard)
You are correct that Deo-S has some versatility on its attacking set, but no more than the typical OU offensive Pokemon. Basically, on offensive Deo-S, only the last slot can be changed, as Psycho Boost, Ice Beam, and Superpower are all musts in order for Deo-S to do its revenge killing job. Yeah, it can use HP Fire, Fire Punch, Knock Off, Extremespeed, Rock Slide, or Thunderbolt, but the general answers, such as Aegislash, Mega Mawile, and Slowbro, don't really care about most of its moves, and even if they do, they can still take one super effective move from it and OHKO back, or scout the move it has on the last slot so they can go to something that walls it without a Fire move, such as Scizor or Genesect.
And Aegislash is perfectly viable on HO teams. Checks a ton of stuff, has set up potential with SD + Autotmize + Weakness Policy, is almost unwallable, and has strong priority.
I actually am going to have to agree that Effyouzion's argument is pretty solid-- being able to take out that diversity of opponents no-contest regardless of what sets they run is pretty incredible (aside from really random non-mainstream sets). If defending a style of play is a legitimate argument for banning something (and community opinion seems to agree that "protecting stall" is a priority for tiering), than banning deo-s due to its effect on HO is a sound argument--
Especially because let's face it; Hazard Deo-S pretty much sucks, and isn't doing HO any favors. Anything you can do with hazard setting Deo-S for an HO team could probably be done just as well if not better by Deo-D, who doesn't destroy the top frail offensive mons no-contest.
Especially because let's face it; Hazard Deo-S pretty much sucks, and isn't doing HO any favors. Anything you can do with hazard setting Deo-S for an HO team could probably be done just as well if not better by Deo-D, who doesn't destroy the top frail offensive mons no-contest.
I've been reading through the whole thread actually. And i did say "bulky mons can take hits from it". Just making sure the logic isn't revengeable=OU. Which your arguements have proven there's more than that. That's all i got to say. I'll let people with more concern(which is probably ~80% of those with an opinion at all) over deo-s give their thoughts before i chirp in again.
For my money, Genesect is completely and utterly broken. It has almost no negative points.
Mega-Lucario, in my opinion, suffers a bit from not having an item (besides Lucarionite, obviously), so it loses out on Focus Sash, which would make it infinitely better, as it's very frail.
I'm pretty split on Deoxys-S. If I could vote now, I'd say ban, because it's just a bit too fast and has a perfect movepool to pull off hazard setting.
Mega-Lucario, in my opinion, suffers a bit from not having an item (besides Lucarionite, obviously), so it loses out on Focus Sash, which would make it infinitely better, as it's very frail.
I'm pretty split on Deoxys-S. If I could vote now, I'd say ban, because it's just a bit too fast and has a perfect movepool to pull off hazard setting.
It doesn't always have to be a revenge kill. A slow u-turn or volt switch can get Deo-S in, and so can bluffing a hazards lead to get a match up against, say, Tyranitar. You lack creativity if you only get him in on revenge kills.
First of all deoxys-s is actually a pretty big asset for HO. Also, since when should we be protecting HO? If there's something out there that can make HO slightly less viable (not that I'm saying deoxys-s is that mon), I would think thats a great thing. The thing about HO is that its viability is pretty much inversely proportional to all other play styles (bar trickroom). There are already so many pokemon that make stall's life miserable (kyrum-b for example), why should we be up in arms if something shift the balance slightly back? Anyways, I really think LO deoxys is being overestimated, as although it can revenge kill frail threats, its really dead weight against somewhat bulky offensive mons and stall. Maybe its just a sign that HO needs to adapt.
Frail HO is almost as unviable as stall, so I don't think there's any legitimacy to your point there. If anything, I would rather run "XY Stall" than frail HO. Deo-S is undoubtedly a part of that.
While I personally think using banning to protect ANY style (including stall-- ridiculous...) if people believe that it is a legitimate argument (which apparently they do based on community survey data), than I'd have to say banning Deo-S to protect frail HO is just as legitimate an argument as protecting stall by banning ---.
While I personally think using banning to protect ANY style (including stall-- ridiculous...) if people believe that it is a legitimate argument (which apparently they do based on community survey data), than I'd have to say banning Deo-S to protect frail HO is just as legitimate an argument as protecting stall by banning ---.
It's not necessarily that I want to protect HO (or stall either), but it's frustrating to build a team when something like Deoxys-S is around. You think you have your bases covered with an offensive team using scarf Garchomp as your insurance against boosting sweepers, then all of a sudden you play someone with a Deo-S that takes out half your team. There's nothing you can do to prepare for that except run priority on every mon, which isn't really viable.
I just feel like he doesn't fit the meta game. Greninja feels like the OU version of the fast life orb sweeper. Deoxys-S feels like the uber version.
Or use one of the dozen Pokemon that can fit on any non-HO team (which i already have mentioned) that check/counter attacking Deo-S. I already have talked about the ways that HO has to deal with Deo-S so i won't talk about that.
As for Greninja, Water STAB, STAB U-turn, and STAB Dark Pulse make it a very different kind of monster that struggles against very different Pokemon. Deo-S is better against offensive teams due to its better Speed, but Greninja is better against balanced and stall teams due to its better coverage, better and more reliable STABs, and STAB U-turn.
Why not unban Arceus normal? People can just use Skarmory and Bronzong
Genesect gets a lot of solid non-scarf checks. Lucario gets very few non-scarf checks, and your last sentence brings me back to
YOUR EXPERIENCE =/= EVERYONE ELSES
arc has overheat, neither of these pokemon are anywhere close to counters. COnventionally ekiller ust plows through zong with shadow force lol.
...I wasn't being serious
Please correct me if I am wrong, but what do you need Ice Beam for aside from Dragonite, Mandibuzz, SpD Hippowdon (all of which don't appreciate losing their item)? Psycho Boost wrecks Thundy/offensive Lando/Gliscor, does like 76% min to Garchomp, is stronger vs Mega Zard, and Salamence kind of sucks now so lol at that. Knock Off also covers several things you would use Ice Beam for:
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 216-255 (71.5 - 84.4%)
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 195-231 (64.5 - 76.4%)
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 177-211 (44.6 - 53.2%)
Yeah it's not as effective against Celebi (still knocks off its item), but it actually outdamages Ice Beam against the Latis which are more common/threatening targets:
248 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 190-226 (62.9 - 74.8%)
248 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 164-195 (54.3 - 64.5%)
Knock Off also has the bonus of hitting enemy Psychics like Espy/Starmie/other Deo which is also worth noting...
Granted having Ice Beam is very important for Dragonite and Mandibuzz (not that Buzz is too hard to check but its worth mentioning I suppose), but you don't necessarily need it. Arguably you only need Psycho Boost and Superpower, leaving two slots available to use for HP Fire, Knock Off, Dark Pulse (it does 40% min to Aegis and is consistent damage while covering Gengar and Psychics which is neat) Rock Slide, TBolt, Ice Beam, even SR and/or Taunt if you wanted a hybrid hazard/offensive set. Deo-S has a lot of flexibility so that it can conform to what the team needs.
I guess my point here is that Deo-S is a lot more flexible than what it may seem which is a legitimate problem considering it literally has moves running out of where its nose would be if it had one and you never know what it has or can have until it makes a move. I'm not really arguing one way or another for Deo-S's ban, but it is more menacing than you seem to think it is.
Lol I don't doubt that. Still, a "hard counter" getting Knocked Off for 40% damage minimum and its item being evaporated is a tough price to pay for something that is needed to check a lot of stuff.
EDIT - Oh my bad @ below.
Last edited:
@Pharohcalvin
You haven't shown me how Deoxy-s/d are broken with that reply, only stated your opinion.
Unfortunately for your conventional wisdom, this does not apply to Deoxy-s/d. The majority of which run residual spam sets that renders them predictable. There is nothing "high-skill" about the residual spamming strat as it is very straightforward. By that same token, there is nothing necessarily earth-shattering about setting a layer or two of spikes either. Especially not when there are new counters to it in the form of defog. Not to mention Deoxy-s relatively short life expectancy on the field (if it's a lead, it's usually the very first thing to go). It can excel at it's supportive role, but power-bans are usually reserved for things with actual raw power (i.e., Kanga-Gengar-Blaziken) and are historically not recommended for Supportive or Defensive Pokemon. So to ban Deoxy irregardless of hard usage statistics suggests a form of power-ban.
You also ignored the (main) point I made about the tiering system. Why adhere to it at all if it can be bypassed like this?
It wouldn't make sense to ban any NU Pokemon straight into BL1, so likewise, it doesn't make sense to me to ban any UU Pokemon straight into Uber. Which is what bypassing the tiering structure to even suspect Deoxy-e/d in this case is. It's unheard of. It is not being suspected because it is so powerful that it's a staple on 1 in every 3-4 teams, it is being suspected because it has the potential to provide excellent support. It's not even guaranteed it will preform it's entire function as well as it would like against the hyper-offense strats of today, and in my experience it typically never does.
It's safe to say that nothing in OU is under-powered and everything in OU deserves to be there. Maybe if the OU roster were widened, the Deoxy's would find themselves there.
You haven't shown me how Deoxy-s/d are broken with that reply, only stated your opinion.
Unfortunately for your conventional wisdom, this does not apply to Deoxy-s/d. The majority of which run residual spam sets that renders them predictable. There is nothing "high-skill" about the residual spamming strat as it is very straightforward. By that same token, there is nothing necessarily earth-shattering about setting a layer or two of spikes either. Especially not when there are new counters to it in the form of defog. Not to mention Deoxy-s relatively short life expectancy on the field (if it's a lead, it's usually the very first thing to go). It can excel at it's supportive role, but power-bans are usually reserved for things with actual raw power (i.e., Kanga-Gengar-Blaziken) and are historically not recommended for Supportive or Defensive Pokemon. So to ban Deoxy irregardless of hard usage statistics suggests a form of power-ban.
You also ignored the (main) point I made about the tiering system. Why adhere to it at all if it can be bypassed like this?
It wouldn't make sense to ban any NU Pokemon straight into BL1, so likewise, it doesn't make sense to me to ban any UU Pokemon straight into Uber. Which is what bypassing the tiering structure to even suspect Deoxy-e/d in this case is. It's unheard of. It is not being suspected because it is so powerful that it's a staple on 1 in every 3-4 teams, it is being suspected because it has the potential to provide excellent support. It's not even guaranteed it will preform it's entire function as well as it would like against the hyper-offense strats of today, and in my experience it typically never does.
It's safe to say that nothing in OU is under-powered and everything in OU deserves to be there. Maybe if the OU roster were widened, the Deoxy's would find themselves there.
Deoxys-s is bl and theres already prescedence of mons being banned from a tier they are not part of for supportive capabilities such as gothitelle.
I agree with the majority of this thread. Mega Luke and possibly genesect are a problem. Mega Luke is both powerful, and slightly unpredictable because it can go either special or physical, and genesect is very unpredictable. Without a specific poke that is good against them, you can often be screwed. I especially think Mega Luke should be banned, because It always screwed with me, and people shouldn't have to have a check to it.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 256-303 (106.2 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 398-471 (165.1 - 195.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 360-424 (149.3 - 175.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 136-160 (56.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 192-228 (79.6 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 106-126 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 130-154 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
there's a lot of really strong priority in the tier, and its one of the reasons why offensive Deo-S, who is forced to run life orb, can be checked without much issue imo. 95 offenses with life orb doesnt make it stronger than most scarf users, it's a great revenge killer, but it really cant sweep at all considering its best moves confer stat drops, and strong priority users prevent it from always moving first. Even with fantastic coverage it can't really wall break either, on top of being weaker than a lot of wall breakers seen in OU it has to hit shit super effectively to get past it, and with four moveslots its just not possible for it to beat enough, and even then it still has hard walls. Mega Aggron isnt that great, but Deo can't beat it that's for sure.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 398-471 (165.1 - 195.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 360-424 (149.3 - 175.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 136-160 (56.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Spooky Plate Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 192-228 (79.6 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 106-126 (43.9 - 52.2%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 130-154 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
there's a lot of really strong priority in the tier, and its one of the reasons why offensive Deo-S, who is forced to run life orb, can be checked without much issue imo. 95 offenses with life orb doesnt make it stronger than most scarf users, it's a great revenge killer, but it really cant sweep at all considering its best moves confer stat drops, and strong priority users prevent it from always moving first. Even with fantastic coverage it can't really wall break either, on top of being weaker than a lot of wall breakers seen in OU it has to hit shit super effectively to get past it, and with four moveslots its just not possible for it to beat enough, and even then it still has hard walls. Mega Aggron isnt that great, but Deo can't beat it that's for sure.
Who said the point of my post was to prove Deoxys-S was broken? I was simply was stating that Usage has very little to do with being broken or not. Yes, it can have a correlation, but that is not always the case. How is the system being bypassed? Because it really is not. There was no rule stating a pokemon not pulling OU level usage can not be banned from OU. Maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you still feel that everything that is good gets high level of usage. That is simply not the case. Also, don't act like every Deoxys-S set is a hazard layer. For a lot of players this would not be just a support or power ban. It would be a mixture of both, because Deoxys-S is great at both revenge killing and laying hazards. (Not to mention screening as well, which still surprises me that it has not came up yet in this thread) Some people feel it does too many things too well.
BTW Goth was in NU and was banned all the way to BL1 in 5th gen.
- Status