XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[TooMuchSugar]

Those are perfectly good reasons. His outlier speed means he's kryptonite to hyper offense. He destroys HO almost as well as mega Luc destroys stall.

The fact that his huge speed is a killer for HO is a valid argument, as it provides a reason why his speed makes him broken. Just "He's way too fast" is not.
Anyway HO doesn't have all that much trouble with offensive Deoxys-S because HO tends to carry lots of priority. The only thing Deoxys can do against HO is revenge kill and then get forced out (which admittedly it does very well).

 

[Jps101]

YOUR personal experience =/= everyone's experience

YOUR team =/= everyone's team

Gene's attacks are also far weaker than Luke Skywalker's. It is also far easier to check. For example, Mega Charizard Y and Scarf Terrakion both check it extremely well, and both are very, very good in the current meta.

Yeah, but that's the issue I see. Most people claiming checks for Genesect and such, can probably also deal with Lucario. And also, those checks run risk of being outsped by Genesect, which can quite clearly happen, being eliminated, thus giving way for Genesect to sweep.

I know my team is not equal to everyone elses team, and same for my experience. Trust me, I have had issues with both, but Genesect more.

 

[Always!]

Wut? Deo-S is one of the biggest ASSETS to HO right now. If your running HO without Deo-S your probably doing it wrong.

You don't have to run Deo-S on HO.

But you are missing the fact that HO gets cleaved in half by it. You need a Talonflame and a shitton of priority if you don't want to lose.

Edit: Shedinja'd by TooMuchSugar ;-;

 

[JackTheGordie]

using the Core is another bad example. mainly because whos the problem there, Deo-S or Bisharp? its Bisharp, he's the one sweeping teams with the boost, not Deoxys, Deo-D and Garchomp (To a lesser extent) would take its place. and although the core is good i also feel its not broken, Its still quad weak to fighting and Conkeldurr is a thing and he takes Sharp to town on the revenge, along with anything that can live a +2 sucker punch and retaliate with a fighting move, which is a bit. the core is not busted and if thats the best argument for Deo-s than its not busted either.




Red is where i should have stopped reading. BellyJet Azu is mediocre at best, its best set is still band, it just has that beautiful typing now. Also your dismissal of Slowbro and Tangrowth because of Assault Vest is appalling. its the same concept as Conk, they still heal off with the Vest Equipped and patch up their weaker defence. Slowbro especially makes good use of it. Celebi is also surprisingly good in a meta ran by flying and ghost. its not as good but its still OU viable. Jirachi makes for an excellent scarfer, its still has 100 stats all around, although it is worse now. These pokemon have valuable niches in OU right now (Ironically the ones you bashed most are most viable)

you also seem to assume Deo-S will guess right on the switch, although it can deal with everything in the meta, most well built teams have 3-4 checks and a bunch of priority its pathetic Espeed can't kill. i compare it to Hydreigon last gen. its got something for everything but its more than manageable.

While true it is bisharp doing the sweeping, who layed down those hazards that allowed bisharp to get it's sweep rolling? And true Mach punch and dark resists with SE moves can stop sharp, bulky resists who can hit hard back are checks to anything. And i thought revenge kill possibility shouldn't affect the pokemon's impact on how good it is? And it's not just his role helping bisharp, but also his other dedicated attacking sets and the pressure his mix sets can easily apply. Like i said i'm pretty neutral on deo, but the pro ban arguements just hit home better with me than the con-ban arguements. I see the points they make as to how he's not broken. Tbh, the selfish part of me wants him to stay so i can use him more, but the intelligent part sees how it's probably for a healthier meta if he gets the boot. If he stays, fine by me i don't mind. If he goes, that's cool too. Just as long as i never see mega lucario ever again, i'm a happy man.

 

[TheMohZone]

You don't have to run Deo-S on HO.

But you are missing the fact that HO gets cleaved in half by it. You need a Talonflame and a shitton of priority if you don't want to lose.

Edit: Shedinja'd by TooMuchSugar ;-;

And you can avoid running a shit ton of priority in this meta? Jeez when people suggest running ESpeed on this thing and we don't bat an eye that says it all. Deo-S cannot deal with Dual bird very well and that's the most effective HO style,minus Deo-Sharp which it can and can't run through, depending on how it deals with Bisharp. If it's just a thrown together HO team it probably sucks anyway, especially if you don't have a shitton of priority to prevent Azu, Aegis and Talon running over you.

 

[dcae]

>HO
>cleaved in half by Deo-s
>forgetting aegislash exists

ignoring all this crap, HO, hyper offense, is in no way shape of form "prevented" by Deoxys S. Deoxys Speed is like Greninja, an absolutely stellar quick hitting Pokemon that weaves in and out of battle, while offering nothing defensively. It does outspeed Scarfers; however, the amount of priority in this gen has rendered the Scarfer arguably redundant. Just because your Scarf Genesect gets outsped and KOed by Deo S doesn't make it broken. It dies to priority, which every true offensive team carries, often in multiples. It gets p much walled to hell and back by one of the absolutely most common Pokemon, Aegislash, and its most powerful move, Psycho Boost, renders it p much ineffective after one usage since it already has very average attacking stats. Deo S' best set is the LO 4 attacks set, which is a great set, but this Pokemon isn't near worth a ban in any way shape of form.

Let's try to be real here.

 

[effyouzion]

Wut? Deo-S is one of the biggest ASSETS to HO right now. If your running HO without Deo-S your probably doing it wrong.

The Deoxys-S that HO teams would use is the hazard set. The one that HO struggles with is the offensive set. Regardless, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

The fact that his huge speed is a killer for HO is a valid argument, as it provides a reason why his speed makes him broken. Just "He's way too fast" is not.
Anyway HO doesn't have all that much trouble with offensive Deoxys-S because HO tends to carry lots of priority. The only thing Deoxys can do against HO is revenge kill and then get forced out (which admittedly it does very well).

He is killer to HO because of that outlier speed which makes him faster than all common scarfers and +1 mons, which is what I said in my first post.

 

[Jukain]

Okay you guys have convinced me on Deoxys-S. I've seen where my assessment was flawed.

?_________?

I was just posting another set that's deadly, too. Between Flash Cannon and CC, you break through the specially bulky and physically bulky Pokemon that each common Mega Luke variant is walled by, which is nice.

And ESpeed is a good priority that stops Talonflame in its tracks, and is nice in general (I don't think I need to argue that, it's used enough).

It's also not my set >_<. It just works well, breaking down physical and special set checks, so I figured it was worth mentioning. I didn't mean to imply it was a common set, but it (and Mix Luke in general) is really scary.

---

Anyways...Deoxys-S is not really a killer to HO when those teams always have priority. Talonflame's Brave Bird, Aegislash's Shadow Sneak, Mamoswine's Ice Shard...such teams are just packed with priority. There's also typically a sweeper or hard hitter that can take advantage of the free switch-in after the Psycho Boost use.

 

[TheMohZone]

While true it is bisharp doing the sweeping, who layed down those hazards that allowed bisharp to get it's sweep rolling? And true Mach punch and dark resists with SE moves can stop sharp, bulky resists who can hit hard back are checks to anything. And i thought revenge kill possibility shouldn't affect the pokemon's impact on how good it is? And it's not just his role helping bisharp, but also his other dedicated attacking sets and the pressure his mix sets can easily apply. Like i said i'm pretty neutral on deo, but the pro ban arguements just hit home better with me than the con-ban arguements. I see the points they make as to how he's not broken. Tbh, the selfish part of me wants him to stay so i can use him more, but the intelligent part sees how it's probably for a healthier meta if he gets the boot. If he stays, fine by me i don't mind. If he goes, that's cool too. Just as long as i never see mega lucario ever again, i'm a happy man.

And the point is it's not only Deo-S who can do that, a lot of Hazard users can team with sharp too, Deo-S does it better. But not "broken" better. If you lay hazards and they have defog, it's going to happen no matter what. When guranteed rocks become broken Deo-S can go but in this Metra thats all It gets.

Having an offensive set and defensive set isn't rare. Chomp and Excadrill for example.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

The Deoxys-S that HO teams would use is the hazard set. The one that HO struggles with is the offensive set. Regardless, the two aren't mutually exclusive.



He is killer to HO because of that outlier speed which makes him faster than all common scarfers and +1 mons, which is what I said in my first post.

And I said that HO doesn't care all that much because it carries lots of priority to beat him with regardless of his speed, restricting him to revenge killing (and when he's forced out by your priority user, something else has to take the attack). Deoxys-S can revenge kill a lot of HO staples, but it should never be able to sweep a well-made HO team unless most of its priority users have been taken out.

 

[TheMohZone]

The Deoxys-S that HO teams would use is the hazard set. The one that HO struggles with is the offensive set. Regardless, the two aren't mutually exclusive.



He is killer to HO because of that outlier speed which makes him faster than all common scarfers and +1 mons, which is what I said in my first post.

Any offensive team worth jack carries priority in bucketloads, especially HO. Read dcae s post.

 

[effyouzion]

Any offensive team worth jack carries priority in bucketloads, especially HO. Read dcae s post.

It doesn't matter. Deoxys-S is all but guaranteed to revenge kill something every time it comes in against HO as long as it's not coming in on banded Talonflame or Aegislash.

And I said that HO doesn't care all that much because it carries lots of priority to beat him with regardless of his speed, restricting him to revenge killing (and when he's forced out by your priority user, something else has to take the attack). Deoxys-S can revenge kill a lot of HO staples, but it should never be able to sweep a well-made HO team unless most of its priority users have been taken out.

Now you're just creating arguments out of thin air. No one ever said Deoxys-S is going to sweep teams.

 

[Always!]

What makes Deo-S deadly is its speed. You aren't supposed to sweep with Deo-S, it fails miserably. Revenge Killing? HO staples that don't have priority are mauled by its coverage, and its counters also fear certain moves switching in. Relegate Deo-S to RKing, and it is one of the best out there.

 

[alexwolf]

Let's not pretent that HO doesn't have the tools it needs to deal with attacking Deo-S. Aegislash and Mega Mawile are two great Pokemon that HO can use and shut down attacking Deo-S. Also, just keeping SR up and forcing it into a scenario where it must use Psycho Boost works, as it's forced out after. Not only this, but HO teams already use a fuckton of priority users, such as T-Wave Thundurus, Mega Mawile, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Azumarill, and Bisharp, or some Pokemon which can take one hit from Deo-S and OHKO back, such as Azumarill, Lati@s, and Heatran. So, Deo-S can't switch into anything, it will only KO one Pokemon at best every time it comes in, and will only manage to come in after something is KOed, meaning that the Deo-S player is already behind on the score.

So, HO teams can counter attacking Deo-S if they want (Aegislash and Mega Mawile), can check it (Pokemon that can take its strongest attacks or one hit and OHKO back), and can revenge kill it easily (priority), while giving it almost zero switch-in room. HO teams have all the tools to deal with Deo-S, it's simply a matter of teambuilding if you choose to be weak to it or not.

Finally, even if we assume that the Deo-S kills HO thing is true (which isn't), since when did we ban Pokemon for greatly limiting a playstyle? We only banned Pokemon that had a singificnalty negative presence in the whole metagame (whole metagame, not just one playstyle), Pokemon / elements that made the metagame too luck based, or Pokemon that were obviously overpowered, but never banned Pokemon that greatly hindered a playstyle and forced it to adapt or become way rarer, otherwise we would have banned Kyu-B for fucking up stall in 5th gen, as well as Reuniclus in early BW.

 

[rachet67]

I've seen a lot of posts on how genesect is a great pokemon and can fulfill its roles really well. Which is true. However, I have seen barely any posts showing how this potentially hurts otherwise viable playstyles or forces the opponent to use obscure or multiple checks. Gensect isn't that hard to play around, and while its good at doing what it does (which is why its S rank) its not nearly threatening enough (immediately or even through bringing in counters) or hindering to team building that it should be banned. Most arguments I've seen are pretty much summarizing that volt-turn is broken (which isn't true), though admittedly genesect is one of the best users. If anything the obscenely broken things genesect can help to switch in such as mega-lucario are the mons that should truly be banned.

I've also seen in the deoxys-s argument that its impossible to defog against an HO team that has set up hazards without giving up momentum. Thats not true. Even against HO teams, defoggers will always have pokemon they can switch in on and defog. Defensive defoggers such as skarmory or mandibuzz don't lose to much momentum after defogging due to whirlwind. Offensive defoggers have already been mentioned in previous arguments.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

It doesn't matter. Deoxys-S is all but guaranteed to revenge kill something every time it comes in against HO as long as it's not coming in on banded Talonflame or Aegislash.



Now you're just creating arguments out of thin air. No one ever said Deoxys-S is going to sweep teams.

Okay, I thought by "rip HO apart" you meant sweep it. Apparently your definition of ripping it apart is reliably revenge killing a large part of it, which makes your arguments make a lot more sense. It can indeed revenge kill a lot of HO, but so can a lot of other stuff (talonflame in particular). Basically, I don't see it being banned just because it's a great revenge killer.

EDIT: I just wanted to add Mega Lucario to Alexwolf's list of things on HO that carry priority.

 

[dcae]

effyouzion do u even know what revenge killing is? its whrn a mon comes in after a ko. if u say deo s is revenge killing the entire team ur clearly gonna lose eventually (doe s user). dont use phrases u dont kno and ignoring the arguments of the no ban side. thanks.

 

[JackTheGordie]

And the point is it's not only Deo-S who can do that, a lot of Hazard users can team with sharp too, Deo-S does it better. But not "broken" better. If you lay hazards and they have defog, it's going to happen no matter what. When guranteed rocks become broken Deo-S can go but in this Metra thats all It gets.

Having an offensive set and defensive set isn't rare. Chomp and Excadrill for example.

It's not just his hazards sets. He also has the all out attacker LO set. And i'm pretty sure there's some mixed set he can also utilize. He too can be offensive or defensive. Actually, supportive may be a better term for the hazards set. I'd say more but what i would say has probably been repeated multiple times over by people with way more interest than i'll ever have for it to be banned. My opinion isn't that strong on anything up for reasonable debate(deo-s and genesect) so i'll let the mods and 1700+ people sort them out.

 

[TheMohZone]

It's not just his hazards sets. He also has the all out attacker LO set. And i'm pretty sure there's some mixed set he can also utilize. He too can be offensive or defensive. Actually, supportive may be a better term for the hazards set. I'd say more but what i would say has probably been repeated multiple times over by people with way more interest than i'll ever have for it to be banned. My opinion isn't that strong on anything up for reasonable debate(deo-s and genesect) so i'll let the mods and 1700+ people sort them out.

Yes it can run All Out attacker. Like all Deo-S sets it's good but. Not busted as you can see above. It's a great revenge killer but it's checked and countered by too many common threats with priorities and bulk everywhere. Even the frail HO deals with it. It's great but not broken.

 

[Fireburn]

Aegislash, Slowbro, Mega Mawile, BU Talonflame, SpD Skarmory, Goodra, AV Tangrowth, AV Azumarill, Jirachi, and SpD Celebi

Deoxys-S learns Knock Off which is great against all of those mons save Mawile (for obvious reasons). It's not as immediately useful as say Fire Punch or Ice Beam but it goes a long way towards reducing their efficacy as checks since like a third of those take SE damage, walls don't like losing Leftovers, and it screws over Pokemon that rely on Assault Vest to check it, plus it gives Deo-S yet another method of team disruption and supportive capabilities.

I don't feel terribly strongly about this but I felt it needed to be pointed out. Deo-S learns like a billion moves so shoehorning it into one of two possible sets is kind of hard.

 

[effyouzion]

effyouzion do u even know what revenge killing is? its whrn a mon comes in after a ko. if u say deo s is revenge killing the entire team ur clearly gonna lose eventually (doe s user). dont use phrases u dont kno and ignoring the arguments of the no ban side. thanks.

Obviously you're not going to revenge kill the entire team, but having the potential to revenge kill 4-5 mons on a team can make it very hard for you to lose.

Btw if you wanna call someone out, don't be afraid to quote them.

 

[Meru]

How is Aegislash good on HO? Aegislash appreciates being on a team that lets it switch out by having pivots for its weaknesses, aka BO. Unless it's the Autotomotize + Weakness Policy set, Aegislash isn't going to be ran on HO.

 

[TheMohZone]

Deoxys-S learns Knock Off which is great against all of those mons save Mawile (for obvious reasons). It's not as immediately useful as say Fire Punch or Ice Beam but it goes a long way towards reducing their efficacy as checks since like a third of those take SE damage, walls don't like losing Leftovers, and it screws over Pokemon that rely on Assault Vest to check it, plus it gives Deo-S yet another method of team disruption and supportive capabilities.

I don't feel terribly strongly about this but I felt it needed to be pointed out. Deo-S learns like a billion moves so shoehorning it into one of two possible sets is kind of hard.

And if it goes for knockoff and doesn't kill it dies. It put in work with a probable kill and a knock off but again not broken at all. It's really good but definitely not busted. Good points though.

Obviously you're not going to revenge kill the entire team, but having the potential to revenge kill 4-5 mons on a team can make it very hard for you to lose.

Btw if you wanna call someone out, don't be afraid to quote them.

You will only kill that many on a bad HO team. A really bad one. Most HO mons have priority and use it. So Not only do they sometimes run a bit of bulk (bulk on ho oh this gen) but they bypass deo-s best stat.


EDIT: Whoops double post, getting a butt carried away. On phone can a mod merge?

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Deoxys-S learns Knock Off which is great against all of those mons save Mawile (for obvious reasons). It's not as immediately useful as say Fire Punch or Ice Beam but it goes a long way towards reducing their efficacy as checks since like a third of those take SE damage, walls don't like losing Leftovers, and it screws over Pokemon that rely on Assault Vest to check it, plus it gives Deo-S yet another method of team disruption and supportive capabilities.

I don't feel terribly strongly about this but I felt it needed to be pointed out. Deo-S learns like a billion moves so shoehorning it into one of two possible sets is kind of hard.

I honestly don't see Deoxys-S giving up coverage on his offensive set to beat his own counters. The offensive set is much more worried about having the coverage to revenge kill stuff than about wallbreaking. That said though, it certainly does have a ton of other viable options (dual screens anyone?).

 

[JackTheGordie]

Yes it can run All Out attacker. Like all Deo-S sets it's good but. Not busted as you can see above. It's a great revenge killer but it's checked and countered by too many common threats with priorities and bulk everywhere. Even the frail HO deals with it. It's great but not broken.

True but...wait a second(flame shield activated). Sorry about that. Anyway since this was brought up earlier about luke multiple times(and shot down over and over), i thought it being easily revenge killed shouldn't deem it not broken. Bulky mons can take hits from it true, i just don't think it being revenged easily is a valid point to use against it. Hell, mega lucario probably already has bags packed and while he could take away huge chunks of HP bars with his prioriy before getting taken out, he's shouldn't be staying around.