XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[T-Bolt]

I suppose my intention was to show that through careful team building and playing Genesect can be easy to manage. Sometimes keep it in to confirm may be the best option; sometimes switch in to a Genesect check is. It depends on how much one values the Pokemon Genesect is attacking in a given situation, and it is a rather tactical decision.

Well, Scizor can be centralizing too but it wasn't banned. Tell if running a Blissey, Gengar, Mamoswine, and Tyranitar on the same team would be a good idea in Gen 5.

Scizor wasn't really centralizing since it had multiple hard counters, wasn't fast and could could grab momentum only a against a select few Pokemon. Pretty much everything fears Genesect's download boosted Coverage moves, plus Genesect packs a relatively fast U-turn to get out of sticky situations, making it difficult to counter and easier to grab momentum with it.

Of course running a team weak to Scizor in a gen where Scizor was the most used Pokemon would be a bad idea :/

I suppose one could switch "Genesect" for "Greninja" and replace "Fire" with "Dark", not to mention Greninja usually has the luxury of switching moves. Having a fire weakness is also bad against Heatran, not mention being burned for a Physical attacker. Gen 6 Physically Defensive Rotom-W is also "centralizing" since it punishes non-fire physical attackers.

Except that Dark doesn't have the same super effective coverage that fire has, Greninja has poor defences and can be revenge killed pretty easily, and doesn't really hit as hard as Gene does. Greninja isn't centralizing at all. And heatran is pretty much the only Pokemon that can reliably deal with Genesect.

I'm not sure you understand what centralizing means. A Pokemon is centralizing when you have to resort to using several methods, sometimes obscure or non-viable, just to deal with it (what your post seemed to imply about genesect). Centralizing Pokemon may render some normally viable mons less viable (Genesect's prevalence is one of the factors why Lati@s are used less often IMO). Rotom-W doesn't really fit that description.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I feel deo-s ppl are underrating a lot, it may not be used nearly as much as the other 2 but it can sweep teams just as easily with a nasty plot boost and can be gamechanging with basically 2 guaranteed layers of spikes along with other moves to support the team with like stealth rocks.

But yeah i feel genesect+mega lucario are basically guaranteed uber since its basically impossible to switch in a guaranteed counter when u see lucario or genesect come in since they can both run multiple sets like nasty plot/swords dance for lucario or a band for genesect. Its also pretty hard to counter since talonflame which can be considered the best revenge killer can be dealt with using e-speed

 

[Magnegun]

Genesect i'm still on the fence about, more than likely an uber but he's not off the handle broken. Lucarionite surprises me in how it wasn't quick-banned. 145/140/112 offensive stats backed by adaptability speaks for itself that can easily create free turns to setup and nuke everything. Deo-S, Same boat as Genesect, only I think he's more likely to be OU. (Seriously people, if you fuck this up and fail to ban lucarionite...)

 

[LaiKash]

Lucarionite must be banned because when lucario boost two times it is impossible to stop it, as knowing the moveset lucario is running is impossible as well... Deoxys-s in my opinion should be banned, as the only thing that can stop him in the first turn for not putting the rocks is Speon, but it is also true that Gengar and many other pokemon can kill him after that (Galvantula can outspeed it with sticky web and he is a really good counter). Talking about Genesect... Despite his hability and great moves that could ends up with half of a team, a flamethrower kill him. In this way Mega Charizard (X & Y) need also to be banned but stealth rock make a lot of damage to them (as well as you can easely kill Genesect when you know what moveset he is using). Lucariorite should and will be banned, and the other two ones, it is enough to know how to deal with them. If genesect does not have Download, in my oppinion should not be banned.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Except that Dark doesn't have the same super effective coverage that fire has, Greninja has poor defences and can be revenge killed pretty easily, and doesn't really hit as hard as Gene does. Greninja isn't centralizing at all. And heatran is pretty much the only Pokemon that can reliably deal with Genesect.

Greninja often has U-Turn and if it doesn't it can switch-out. Choiced Locked Genesect can be "revenged killed" too by a strong attacker that can tank its choiced move, but Genesect can just manually switch out. Steel isn't as hard to crack as last Gen.

I'm not sure you understand what centralizing means. A Pokemon is centralizing when you have to resort to using several methods, sometimes obscure or non-viable, just to deal with it (what your post seemed to imply about genesect). Centralizing Pokemon may render some normally viable mons less viable (Genesect's prevalence is one of the factors why Lati@s are used less often IMO). Rotom-W doesn't really fit that description.

All OU Pokemon do exert a presence on the metagame. One can also argue that Talonflame is a main reason why Keldeo is no longer OU. Is Talonflame centralizing?

To the contrary, one can also argue that Rotom-W's Will-O-Wisp has rendered Scizor less viable this Gen, despite Steel's increased offensive utility in dealing with noisome Fairies. This also applies to other slower physical attackers too. Talonflame laughs at is STABs as Talonflame in turn can resist chip damage from Bullet Punch by Roosting or using its Flying Stab before it attacks. Same for Talonflame's Flare Blitz to Ferrothorn decreased usage as a Stealth Rock setter.

Empirically, based on the actual data, Genesect and Rotom-W have few OU checks.

| Venusaur 91.209 (92.19±0.25) |
| (16.5% KOed / 75.7% switched out)|
| Roserade 90.853 (92.81±0.49) |
| (18.2% KOed / 74.6% switched out)|
| Virizion 88.342 (93.31±1.24) |
| (20.1% KOed / 73.2% switched out)|
| Sceptile 87.896 (92.96±1.27) |
| (23.1% KOed / 69.9% switched out)|
| Lilligant 87.699 (93.85±1.54) |
| (25.9% KOed / 67.9% switched out)|
| Ludicolo 86.937 (91.51±1.14) |
| (24.2% KOed / 67.3% switched out)|
| Breloom 86.079 (87.49±0.35) |
| (29.7% KOed / 57.8% switched out)|
| Trevenant 85.917 (87.30±0.35) |
| (7.9% KOed / 79.4% switched out) |
| Shaymin 85.798 (89.92±1.03) |
| (20.8% KOed / 69.1% switched out)|
| Abomasnow 85.680 (89.06±0.85) |
| (23.9% KOed / 65.1% switched out)|
| Gogoat 85.047 (91.07±1.50) |
| (12.7% KOed / 78.4% switched out)|
| Haxorus 84.918 (87.81±0.72) |
| (50.6% KOed / 37.2% switched out)

| Heatran 89.918 (90.78±0.22) |
| (15.4% KOed / 75.4% switched out)|
| Volcarona 78.441 (80.76±0.58) |
| (26.6% KOed / 54.2% switched out)|
| Chandelure 75.476 (78.95±0.87) |
| (19.9% KOed / 59.1% switched out)|
| Entei 74.948 (80.55±1.40) |
| (19.5% KOed / 61.0% switched out)|
| Delphox 74.624 (81.42±1.70) |
| (24.7% KOed / 56.8% switched out)|
| Typhlosion 73.213 (83.89±2.67) |
| (26.9% KOed / 57.0% switched out)|
| Ninetales 73.135 (78.39±1.31) |
| (17.1% KOed / 61.3% switched out)|
| Arcanine 72.338 (76.46±1.03) |
| (12.2% KOed / 64.3% switched out)|
| Kangaskhan 72.183 (74.55±0.59) |
| (41.7% KOed / 32.8% switched out)|
| Infernape 71.583 (74.05±0.62) |
| (20.3% KOed / 53.8% switched out)|
| Pyroar 70.345 (81.06±2.68) |
| (14.3% KOed / 66.8% switched out)|
| Conkeldurr 70.171 (72.44±0.57) |
| (28.6% KOed / 43.9% switched out

Indeed, this can corroborate your point, since Mold Breaker Excadrill, Assault Vest Conkeldurr, and Mega Gyarados are also OU Rotom-W checks that aren't listed because a litany of grass types that aren't heavily used obscure the other checks.
Thundurus-I and Klefki (the latter two can sponge a neutral special attack and use STAB Foul Play) also don't show up against Genesect.

---
Checking Genesect is a primarily matter of team construction. Just watch one's Fire, Ice, and Bug weaknesses so you do not become susceptible to a single commonly used attack from the Scarf set.

I think arguments for banning this thing ultimately lie in the question of whether the metagame would be "better" if one can run more Pokemon on a team that are weak to the aforementioned types. More concretely, would the metagame be better if one has one fewer deterrent to use Latios, Alakazam, Celebi, Starmie, Greninja, Dragonite, Lando-I/T, Gliscor, and Ferrothorn?

 

[TheWyvernKing]

i feel that ppl think genesect is walled/revenged killed by fires+scarfs but 1 thing ppl tend to forget is that scarfed fires can be dealt with using extreme speed(except chandelure ) and in the end its a 2hko on the majority of fires even with 4 attack (and a life orb) which means that fire types wont be able to switch in.

 

[preserve]

From my experiences playing against and using mega lucario, it's actually not that bad. Even with the defense increase it's still pretty frail and it really needs to set up in order to sweep and in that case it risks getting killed trying to set up. Also, even with its increase speed it won't get its increase when it mega evolves so the chances it gets to mega evolve is limited. Another thing is that in order to to use priority on its special set, it must give up a coverage move, leaving you walled by certain pokes. Basically lucario suffers from 4 move slot syndrome.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

From my experiences playing against and using mega lucario, it's actually not that bad. Even with the defense increase it's still pretty frail and it really needs to set up in order to sweep and in that case it risks getting killed trying to set up. Also, even with its increase speed it won't get its increase when it mega evolves so the chances it gets to mega evolve is limited. Another thing is that in order to to use priority on its special set, it must give up a coverage move, leaving you walled by certain pokes. Basically lucario suffers from 4 move slot syndrome.

- Sweeps through majority of OU with STAB + coverage move
- Has room to spare for setup move and priority

"4 move slot syndrome"

I don't see it.

 

[T-Bolt]

Greninja often has U-Turn and if it doesn't it can switch-out. Choiced Locked Genesect can be "revenged killed" too by a strong attacker that can tank its choiced move, but Genesect can just manually switch out. Steel isn't as hard to crack as last Gen.

I meant priority revenge killing, which is much more common this gen. And that argument can be applied to pretty much every choiced Pokemon.

All OU Pokemon do exert a presence on the metagame. One can also argue that Talonflame is a main reason why Keldeo is no longer OU. Is Talonflame centralizing?

Of course every OU Pokemon exerts pressure on the Pokemon they can defeat, but Genesect turns U-Turn weak Pokemon into a liability, which is why it's unhealthy IMO.

Talonflame certainly is centralizing, with it's main counter, Rotom-W rising rapidly in usage, and sweepers weak to flying (Keldeo, Volcarona etc) dropping. But then this isn't a Talonflame suspect thread so yeah....

To the contrary, one can also argue that Rotom-W's Will-O-Wisp has rendered Scizor less viable this Gen, despite Steel's increased offensive utility in dealing with noisome Fairies. This also applies to other slower physical attackers too. Talonflame laughs at is STABs as Talonflame in turn can resist chip damage from Bullet Punch by Roosting or using its Flying Stab before it attacks. Same for Talonflame's Flare Blitz to Ferrothorn decreased usage as a Stealth Rock setter.

I would say that Genesect has a greater effect on Scizor's usage than Rotom-W :]. Genesect eclipses some of Scizor's main roles, but anyway this is off topic.....

Empirically, based on the actual data, Genesect and Rotom-W have few OU checks.

Indeed, this can corroborate your point, since Mold Breaker Excadrill, Assault Vest Conkeldurr, and Mega Gyarados are also OU Rotom-W checks that aren't listed because a litany of grass types that aren't heavily used obscure the other checks.
Thundurus-I and Klefki (the latter two can sponge a neutral special attack and use STAB Foul Play) also don't show up against Genesect.

---
Checking Genesect is a primarily matter of team construction. Just watch one's Fire, Ice, and Bug weaknesses so you do not become susceptible to a single commonly used attack from the Scarf set.

I think arguments for banning this thing ultimately lie in the question of whether the metagame would be "better" if one can run more Pokemon on a team that are weak to the aforementioned types. More concretely, would the metagame be better if one has one fewer deterrent to use Latios, Alakazam, Celebi, Starmie, Greninja, Dragonite, Lando-I/T, Gliscor, and Ferrothorn?

Thundurus and Klefki are only checks to the choiced sets, if you count the other sets as well that checks list is pretty accurate.

Also, that's a pretty big list already, and I bet there are more Pokemon that can be added. If that many Pokemon become more viable on banning one Pokemon, the increase in diversity would make the metagame better IMO.

 

[Impy]

From my experiences playing against and using mega lucario, it's actually not that bad. Even with the defense increase it's still pretty frail and it really needs to set up in order to sweep and in that case it risks getting killed trying to set up. Also, even with its increase speed it won't get its increase when it mega evolves so the chances it gets to mega evolve is limited. Another thing is that in order to to use priority on its special set, it must give up a coverage move, leaving you walled by certain pokes. Basically lucario suffers from 4 move slot syndrome.

Lucario doesn't have 4MSS. Its STAB is ridiculous off of adaptability and you have your pick of coverage moves to go with your boosting move. Dark Pulse or Crunch is usually the safest bet. His coverage is great.

 

[PKMNtrainerXtreme]

Mega lucario is good but not Uber good.idont get why people want him banned. i never have troule dealing with mega lucario like its mega evolution dosen't help him sponge special attacks and is raped by talonflame,scarfed fire types etc. genesect is a bit OP but with mega evolutions,drizzle no longer being perma and it no longer resisting ghost and dark it's not what it used to be. deoxys-s is not really that broken being stopped by t-wave thundurus,talonflame etc

 

[ATH]

Alright. After reading uo I gathered this.
Mega Lucario is broken because it centralizes the game just as much as fire/flying types do. 3 weaknesses, frail as all hell, and is easily beaten by my favorite type of team. One meant to narrow the opponents mons into counters by using bulky attackers. He can hit hard if he sets up, but is easy to prevent setting up. But I'd rather not touch that argument. It'simmune to toxic and toxic spikes, giving it a nice free switch on some predictions, but can easily be outpredicted and one can switch into a scarfmon or priomon. It takes up your mega evolution slot, but doesn't have the similar bulk and has shitty typing. I mean, if you really think that being weak to 3 of the most common moves out there is a good thing? I don't know what to say. And for the people who have trouble preventing a mon from setting up, here's a friendly tip: Focus Sash. Aerodactyl, Noivern, Heatran, Gourgeist, Garchomp, and anything else with a decent fire move, ground move, or ghost typing, suddenly seems like a nice counter. Bulky Scarfmons stop it as well. Also, the argument of "It's unstoppable when it sets up!" Is hilarious to me. As that applies to almost anythink with a decent offensive stat. Give Mega Garchomp good speed by pairing it with Scolipede or Jolteon. It'll plow through teams with the only problem being Abomasnow and Mamoswine. You can't even use that with Luc, he has to set his frail self up on his own. As literally, the only good passer for him is Drifblim?? Abd that inly works in VGC. I really want to see newer arguments than just the one's I've stated here.
Now. I'll give quick opinions on the other two.
Genesect has 1 weakness, can use 3 roles, both spectrums of offense, and has a great movepool. It almost always takes at least 1 neutral hit, immune to toxic and toxic spikes, and ohkos a LOT of dedicated leads with little exceptions, like the rotoms.
In othef words, I understand why this thing is under speculation.
DeoS can be seen as pretty broken, and I see that too. I use one or setting up, but it can be used as well as a beastly fast-attacker. I used to think it got pretty walled by dark types, then I tried it out, and realized the power it has. Simple 2 weaknesses, fastest think out there, and doesn't have many counters other than possibly Mandibuzz. I don't have much to say on this guy, I haven't used him enough to understand fully about him. So I won't act like I do.

Now. My final verdict is this:
Genesect should be placed in Ubers.
Deoxys-S should be placed in Ubers.
Lucarionite should be placed in Ubers.

Before someone calls me a hypocrite, this is me saying that although I don't believe Lucarionite is broken, I am willing to accept the majority believes it is. And that it would be healthy for the scene's sake, to simply ban it.

Can't wait to see the next one be Mawilite. 2 Weaknesses, higher attack, better bulk, better typing, and if a Gorebyss passes into it can be devestating with speed+priority? Just pointing it out. And when that happens I'll give my opinion again. Then probably Aegislash, and Excadrill. Oh, can't wait.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

I must disagree with the majority of people who wrote before this message. Lucario CAN deal with talonflame using e-speed and due to adaptability very few pokemon can wall it. This may not be as true for special luke which does have trouble with talonflame but sp luke is alot harder to wall. Overall i think Mega luc is fine in ubers but im not sure about genesect/deo-s

 

[Salt]

Mega lucario is good but not Uber good.idont get why people want him banned. i never have troule dealing with mega lucario like its mega evolution dosen't help him sponge special attacks and is raped by talonflame,scarfed fire types etc. genesect is a bit OP but with mega evolutions,drizzle no longer being perma and it no longer resisting ghost and dark it's not what it used to be. deoxys-s is not really that broken being stopped by t-wave thundurus,talonflame etc

Deoxys-A also doesn't take hits and is wrecked by priority, so by your logic we should unban Deoxys-A right? The thing you people (as in EVERYONE who think Mega Luke should stay just because it is frail) need to get through your heads is that Lucario isn't supposed to be taking hits. It comes in, sets up, and at least 2HKOs pretty much the entire relevant metagame with its sheer power. Besides, 70/88/70 bulk isn't that bad for a sweeper.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 133-157 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 103-121 (36.6 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 168-200 (59.7 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'm going to add this to the OP but: "Mega Pokemon are supposed to be stronger" is not an argument and will not be tolerated. If you see a post that says that-- please link me and I'll delete it. Thanks.

 

[chimpact]

Please don't use weaknesses for an argument lol. You have to consider the moves that are going to be effective against that pokemon. For Deoxys Shadow sneak and pursuit come to mind, but Aegislash is pretty much the only pokemon capable of using both those moves against Deoxys. There are a lot of neutral hits that are capable of ohko'g deoxys. if it's super effective it's just going to be guaranteed to kill it. it's very frail.

Lucario being weak to fighting/fire/ground is irrelevant when its killing off those pokemon that are attempting to use those supereffective moves on it. The only relevant attack it has to deal with is probably mach punch from conkeldurr and it actually lives it.
Lucario is really strong. The only thing that an opposing player can really take advantage of is it's lackluster initial speed before its mega evo. stuff like landorus, manaphy, garchomp can beat it before it mega evolves, so you can build your team to not allow it to mega evolve, but that's kinda... centralizing.

 

[Lord Ghetsis]

Deoxys-A also doesn't take hits and is wrecked by priority, so by your logic we should unban Deoxys-A right? The thing you people (as in EVERYONE who think Mega Luke should stay just because it is frail) need to get through your heads is that Lucario isn't supposed to be taking hits. It comes in, sets up, and at least 2HKOs pretty much the entire relevant metagame with its sheer power. Besides, 70/88/70 bulk isn't that bad for a sweeper.

Agreed. The fact that Luke is frail means nothing, as it is intended to sweep. Also about Talonflame: Extreme Speed.
As far as Gene, I'm not entirely sure yet. Download-boosted U-turn into a better check is a real pain though.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Mega lucario is good but not Uber good.idont get why people want him banned. i never have troule dealing with mega lucario like its mega evolution dosen't help him sponge special attacks and is raped by talonflame,scarfed fire types etc. genesect is a bit OP but with mega evolutions,drizzle no longer being perma and it no longer resisting ghost and dark it's not what it used to be. deoxys-s is not really that broken being stopped by t-wave thundurus,talonflame etc

Mega luc is going uber cause at +2 basically nothing can stop it. Also, scarfs+talonflame rant as big a threat as you may think. Here is a quick calc:

+2 252+ Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 273-322 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

[PKMNtrainerXtreme]

Mega luc is going uber cause at +2 basically nothing can stop it. Also, scarfs+talonflame rant as big a threat as you may think. Here is a quick calc:

+2 252+ Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 273-322 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

No-one really runs extremespeed on lucario cause bullet punch is alot stronger. not to mention gliscor walls any non ice punch lucario

 

[TheWyvernKing]

No-one really runs extremespeed on lucario cause bullet punch is alot stronger. not to mention gliscor walls any non ice punch lucario

extreme speed & bullet punch do the exact same amount even with adaptability, also luc isnt completely ruined by gliscor.
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 32+ Def Gliscor: 227-268 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

i think i mightve messed up the evs a bit but gliscor cant switch in and cant ohio

 

[Jack Meister]

No-one really runs extremespeed on lucario cause bullet punch is alot stronger. not to mention gliscor walls any non ice punch lucario

Wrong. Extreme Speed and Bullet Punch are both 80 BP for Mega Lucario, considering Adaptability. The choice between the two priority moves only boils down to coverage preference.

 

[Colonial]

Alright. After reading uo I gathered this.
Mega Lucario is broken because it centralizes the game just as much as fire/flying types do. 3 weaknesses, frail as all hell, and is easily beaten by my favorite type of team. One meant to narrow the opponents mons into counters by using bulky attackers. He can hit hard if he sets up, but is easy to prevent setting up. But I'd rather not touch that argument. It'simmune to toxic and toxic spikes, giving it a nice free switch on some predictions, but can easily be outpredicted and one can switch into a scarfmon or priomon. It takes up your mega evolution slot, but doesn't have the similar bulk and has shitty typing. I mean, if you really think that being weak to 3 of the most common moves out there is a good thing? I don't know what to say. And for the people who have trouble preventing a mon from setting up, here's a friendly tip: Focus Sash. Aerodactyl, Noivern, Heatran, Gourgeist, Garchomp, and anything else with a decent fire move, ground move, or ghost typing, suddenly seems like a nice counter. Bulky Scarfmons stop it as well. Also, the argument of "It's unstoppable when it sets up!" Is hilarious to me. As that applies to almost anythink with a decent offensive stat. Give Mega Garchomp good speed by pairing it with Scolipede or Jolteon. It'll plow through teams with the only problem being Abomasnow and Mamoswine. You can't even use that with Luc, he has to set his frail self up on his own. As literally, the only good passer for him is Drifblim?? Abd that inly works in VGC. I really want to see newer arguments than just the one's I've stated here.
Now. I'll give quick opinions on the other two.
Genesect has 1 weakness, can use 3 roles, both spectrums of offense, and has a great movepool. It almost always takes at least 1 neutral hit, immune to toxic and toxic spikes, and ohkos a LOT of dedicated leads with little exceptions, like the rotoms.
In othef words, I understand why this thing is under speculation.
DeoS can be seen as pretty broken, and I see that too. I use one or setting up, but it can be used as well as a beastly fast-attacker. I used to think it got pretty walled by dark types, then I tried it out, and realized the power it has. Simple 2 weaknesses, fastest think out there, and doesn't have many counters other than possibly Mandibuzz. I don't have much to say on this guy, I haven't used him enough to understand fully about him. So I won't act like I do.

Now. My final verdict is this:
Genesect should be placed in Ubers.
Deoxys-S should be placed in Ubers.
Lucarionite should be placed in Ubers.

Before someone calls me a hypocrite, this is me saying that although I don't believe Lucarionite is broken, I am willing to accept the majority believes it is. And that it would be healthy for the scene's sake, to simply ban it.

Can't wait to see the next one be Mawilite. 2 Weaknesses, higher attack, better bulk, better typing, and if a Gorebyss passes into it can be devestating with speed+priority? Just pointing it out. And when that happens I'll give my opinion again. Then probably Aegislash, and Excadrill. Oh, can't wait.

So... your first argument against MLuke being uber is the exact same one that's been thrown out multiple times and been countered multiple times. Scarfer and Revenge killing... an argument that requires one of your pokemon to die and which applies to every pokemon in the game. Jesus Christ how many times has this been said? I've even done CAPS LOCK SHOUTING to get the point across, which made me look like even more of an idiot than I already look like and this is still said again and again. Scarfers are not relevant to Luke getting banned or not! Any pokemon can be revenge killed! Mewtwo can be revenge killed too, shall we let him into OU as well? What about Kyogre? Or Rayquaza?

Focus sash, lol. So you have to sacrifice one mon to get in the sasher in safe, pray to Arceus rocks aren't up, and then let the sasher get down to 1HP to deal with luke and you call it a good way of dealing with him. I would assume your opponent would say the same thing, a 2 for 1 trade is a great deal.

Your other points are odd as well. Unlike the pokemon you listed, Megaluke doesn't need baton pass support to set up, which puts him far ahead of Megachomp. And why does Luke "have" to set up on his own? Luke can catch a baton just like any other pokemon, he just doesn't need it, he can run the relay solo if he has to. His typing is by no means shitty, Heatran is weak to common types too. So is Aegislash. Don't see anyone saying their typings bad, do you? In fact, everything has weaknesses so that's another argument that isn't exclusive to Luke. Lucario has lots of resistances (8, in fact, meaning he has more than twice as many resistances as weaknesses) and can therefore come in on many pokemon if they don't have something that hits him super-effectively, and set up on those. Ghosts, a counter? When Luke usually carries Dark Pulse/Crunch/Shadow Ball? The only ghost that can somewhat deal with Luke is Aegislash. All other ghosts get OHKO'd.

 

[TheMohZone]

No-one really runs extremespeed on lucario cause bullet punch is alot stronger. not to mention gliscor walls any non ice punch lucario

They are exactly the same power, ESpeed and BP. BPs power is doubled by Adaptability STAB. which = 80BP....the same as Espeed. Espeed is more common the higher up the ladder you go to beat Talonflame

also

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 183-216 (51.6 - 61%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
wallled my ass

also the far more dangerous special set

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 466-550 (131.6 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 233-275 (65.8 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Meanwhile at the Gliscave

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 230-272 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It fails to OHKO without prior damage. get your facts straight.

 

[PKMNtrainerXtreme]

Wrong. Extreme Speed and Bullet Punch are both 80 BP for Mega Lucario, considering Adaptability. The choice between the two priority moves only boils down to coverage preference.

well bp hits the fairy types that resist it's stab so in a way it's a bit stronger just extremespeed hits scarf rotom wash and talon

extreme speed & bullet punch do the exact same amount even with adaptability, also luc isnt completely ruined by gliscor.
+2 252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 32+ Def Gliscor: 227-268 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

i think i mightve messed up the evs a bit but gliscor cant switch in and cant ohio

lmao 32 def evs? dmg calc 252 hp 184 def gliscor

 

[TheWyvernKing]

lmao 32 def evs? dmg calc 252 hp 184 def gliscor

Still a 2hko after stealth rocks.

well bp hits the fairy types that resist it's stab so in a way it's a bit stronger just extremespeed hits scarf rotom wash and talon

It seems to me that beating a talonflame would be more useful and at +2 not much can survive a luc anyways.

Also in ou the majority of fairies can be beaten without bp or cant be beaten with bp (azumarill, klefki, mawile can take a bullet punch & togekiss losses to ice punch)

loses* watevr