XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

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They are exactly the same power, ESpeed and BP. BPs power is doubled by Adaptability STAB. which = 80BP....the same as Espeed. Espeed is more common the higher up the ladder you go to beat Talonflame

also

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 183-216 (51.6 - 61%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
wallled my ass
Then Gliscor OHKOs back with Earthquake...? You're switching into a Swords Dance or a +0 Close Combat, no way Gliscor's coming in a +2 Close Combat. Ice Punch, however, is a completely different story.
 
No-one really runs extremespeed on lucario cause bullet punch is alot stronger. not to mention gliscor walls any non ice punch lucario
Gliscor is a shaky counter at best, as it can wall only the physical sets without ice punch and completely falls to nasty plot Lucario. Basically, the only pokemon that can resist all of lucario's sets (volcorona, moltres) are really weak to stealth rock.
 
Then Gliscor OHKOs back with Earthquake...? You're switching into a Swords Dance or a +0 Close Combat, no way Gliscor's coming in a +2 Close Combat. Ice Punch, however, is a completely different story.
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 230-272 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gliscor doesn't OHKO.

Which means Luke can Nasty Plot up with impunity and then...

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 466-550 (131.6 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You already know that the physical set 2HKOs

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 183-216 (51.6 - 61%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
Of course, Gliscor can win with Protect, so it's an OK check for physical megaluke. Dies real fast if Luke has Ice Punch or is Special or Mixed though.
 
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 230-272 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gliscor doesn't OHKO.

Which means Luke can Nasty Plot up with impunity and then...

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 466-550 (131.6 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You already know that the physical set 2HKOs

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 183-216 (51.6 - 61%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
Of course, Gliscor can win with Protect, so it's an OK check for physical megaluke. Dies real fast if Luke has Ice Punch or is Special or Mixed though.
dude noone uses nasty plot lucario when lucario has a better physical movepool and has better priority on his physical side
 
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 230-272 (81.8 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Gliscor doesn't OHKO.
Close Combat drops your defenses, man. Make sure to take that into account after a CC calculation.

Of course, Ice Punch variantes win, and so do Nasty Plot variants. I'm by no means saying that Gliscor is a complete counter to every single Lucario out there, because such a thing does not exist. I'm saying it counters Swords Dance, Ice Punch-less Mega Lucario.

Mega Lucario is an obvious uber, I'm with you on that one.
 
Gliscor is a shaky counter at best, as it can wall only the physical sets without ice punch and completely falls to nasty plot Lucario. Basically, the only pokemon that can resist all of lucario's sets (volcorona, moltres) are really weak to stealth rock.
well ice punch is illegal on lucario cause its a BW2 tutor move and noone runs nasty plot lucario seeing how it's so outclassed to phsy lucario
 
So... your first argument against MLuke being uber is the exact same one that's been thrown out multiple times and been countered multiple times. Scarfer and Revenge killing... an argument that requires one of your pokemon to die and which applies to every pokemon in the game. Jesus Christ how many times has this been said? I've even done CAPS LOCK SHOUTING to get the point across, which made me look like even more of an idiot than I already look like and this is still said again and again. Scarfers are not relevant to Luke getting banned or not! Any pokemon can be revenge killed! Mewtwo can be revenge killed too, shall we let him into OU as well? What about Kyogre? Or Rayquaza?

Focus sash, lol. So you have to sacrifice one mon to get in the sasher in safe, pray to Arceus rocks aren't up, and then let the sasher get down to 1HP to deal with luke and you call it a good way of dealing with him. I would assume your opponent would say the same thing, a 2 for 1 trade is a great deal.

Your other points are odd as well. Unlike the pokemon you listed, Megaluke doesn't need baton pass support to set up, which puts him far ahead of Megachomp. And why does Luke "have" to set up on his own? Luke can catch a baton just like any other pokemon, he just doesn't need it, he can run the relay solo if he has to. His typing is by no means shitty, Heatran is weak to common types too. So is Aegislash. Don't see anyone saying their typings bad, do you? In fact, everything has weaknesses so that's another argument that isn't exclusive to Luke. Lucario has lots of resistances (8, in fact, meaning he has more than twice as many resistances as weaknesses) and can therefore come in on many pokemon if they don't have something that hits him super-effectively, and set up on those. Ghosts, a counter? When Luke usually carries Dark Pulse/Crunch/Shadow Ball? The only ghost that can somewhat deal with Luke is Aegislash. All other ghosts get OHKO'd.
I like how you're admitting how much of an idiot you are. You make it sound like any con Luc has is irellevant. Why don't scarfers count? Why isn't revenge killing in play? It was whe we were talking about m-Khan, why not Luc? Scolioede has similar weaknesses that Luc has, attracting a mon to ohko it on Pass. Same with Jolteon. Go ahead and keep thinking Scarf Landorus doesn't help. And that Sash doesn't help. And sticky web. And priority. But keep in mind, you called yourself out on being and idiot. Not me.
 
well ice punch is illegal on lucario cause its a BW2 tutor move and noone runs nasty plot lucario seeing how it's so outclassed to phsy lucario
What are you talking about? Ice punch is legal, as you can learn it in gen 5, and transfer it using pokebank. Nasty plot mega-lucario is actually really good and in no way outclassed by physical mega-lucario. Because swords dance is more common, many switch in their dedicated physical wall into mega lucario at first sight of it. This gives Lucario basically a free turn and +2 SpA. Your argument against NP really only applies to regular lucario.

I like how you're admitting how much of an idiot you are. You make it sound like any con Luc has is irellevant. Why don't scarfers count? Why isn't revenge killing in play? It was whe we were talking about m-Khan, why not Luc? Scolioede has similar weaknesses that Luc has, attracting a mon to ohko it on Pass. Same with Jolteon. Go ahead and keep thinking Scarf Landorus doesn't help. And that Sash doesn't help. And sticky web. And priority. But keep in mind, you called yourself out on being and idiot. Not me.
Colonial was right. A strong offensive mon being somewhat susceptible to revenge killers and scarfers means absolutely nothing. Lucario actually has less problems than most offensive pokemon in this regard as it has an amazing speed tier and great priority moves, both physical and special. Also something with sash being able to surprise an sweepers is essentially a non-argument, as your sacrificing a pokemon and a valuable itemslot just to deal with an incredibly specific threat. Not to mention that any sand and any hazards prevents it from doing its job. The fact that you have to revenge kill it means that you cant reliably switch anything into it anyways.
 
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I like how you're admitting how much of an idiot you are. You make it sound like any con Luc has is irellevant. Why don't scarfers count? Why isn't revenge killing in play? It was whe we were talking about m-Khan, why not Luc? Scolioede has similar weaknesses that Luc has, attracting a mon to ohko it on Pass. Same with Jolteon. Go ahead and keep thinking Scarf Landorus doesn't help. And that Sash doesn't help. And sticky web. And priority. But keep in mind, you called yourself out on being and idiot. Not me.
Good job with the personal attacks. Feel proud. The scarfer argument is irrelevant because... god damn, this is bordering on parody. IT. APPLIES. TO. EVERY. OFFENSIVE. POKEMON. It cannot be used against luke because then we could apply it to Ubers pokemon that have no place in OU. Also, revenge killing should not be the only reliable way of dealing with something, if it can only be revenge killed with much reliability then it's overpowered.

All those revenging tactics help of course, but again, how can they be used against Luke in particular when they're blanket modifiers that effect tons of things? How do they stop Luke from being Uber? Those points aren't exclusive to Luke, nor are they particular enough to be used as an argument. Sticky web, sash, all those are downsides for pretty much everything. You're arguing not against Luke but against every sweeper in the game by using them. Might as well say every pokemon in Ubers should be OU because, lol, scarf and sashes, amirite?!

EDIT: I noticed you failed to answer any of my other points. I'm not sure if that's a strawman or not, but it's certainly bad debating.
 
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nasty plot luc is considered to be the deadlier set when it has less counters
lmao not really. close combat is stronger
What are you talking about? Ice punch is legal, as you can learn it in gen 5, and transfer it using pokebank. Nasty plot mega-lucario is actually really good and in no way outclassed by physical mega-lucario. Because swords dance is more common, many switch in their dedicated physical wall into mega lucario at first sight of it. This gives Lucario basically a free turn and +2 SpA. Your argument against NP really only applies to regular lucario.
well for starters not only is his attack higher then his special attack but close combat is stronger then aura sphere and not many people have or can get ice punch on lucario cause pokebank hasn't been released in the us yet. so really your gonna have to iv breed his ass in gen 5 then have a japanese 3ds and transfer him to pokebank/wait for the us to get pokebank
 
power of moves doesn't automatically make one set better than the other, special mega luc has less counters than physical mega luc, on top of not having to run a "weird" coverage move

special luc only needs to choose between flash cannon/aura sphere/dark pulse to be effective (as NP and vacuum wave are musts), physical luc has to pick between crunch/iron head/ice punch/thunderpunch and then between bullet punch/extreme speed to get by some of its checks

let alone, if you read some of these pages, a lot of people have already backed up "my" claim of special luc being the more threatening set
 
lmao not really. close combat is stronger

well for starters not only is his attack higher then his special attack but close combat is stronger then aura sphere and not many people have or can get ice punch on lucario cause pokebank hasn't been released in the us yet. so really your gonna have to iv breed his ass in gen 5 then have a japanese 3ds and transfer him to pokebank/wait for the us to get pokebank
Availability to people in-game is completely irrelevant, Smogon doesn't care if something is hard to get as long as it's available. Also, Showdown is Smogon's main method of battling, where availability in-game means nothing.

His attack is higher... by 5 points. For all intents and purposes they're the same, 5 means nothing when both stats are above 140 anyway. Close Combat is stronger but M-Luke is going to OHKO most stuff at +2 with either CC or Aura Sphere. Both special and physical sets are seen, both are common, both are very, very good.
 
Really? I'm not even sure if you're trolling or not. It seems like you clearly do not have enough experience with Mega Lucario to say that.
Lmfao well close combat has always been the stronger move over aura sphere and gen 6 weakened aura sphere's power to 80 opposed to the original 90 and NP lucario's only special prority move is vacumn wave while SD lucario has BP and ES
 
Availability to people in-game is completely irrelevant, Smogon doesn't care if something is hard to get as long as it's available. Also, Showdown is Smogon's main method of battling, where availability in-game means nothing.

His attack is higher... by 5 points. For all intents and purposes they're the same, 5 means nothing when both stats are above 140 anyway. Close Combat is stronger but M-Luke is going to OHKO most stuff at +2 with either CC or Aura Sphere. Both special and physical sets are seen, both are common, both are very, very good.
Well i agree that both NP and CC are good sets but it's just his SD set is alot better
 
Lmfao well close combat has always been the stronger move over aura sphere and gen 6 weakened aura sphere's power to 80 opposed to the original 90 and NP lucario's only special prority move is vacumn wave while SD lucario has BP and ES
Not relevant how many priority moves it has, as long as it has priority.

Special megaluke is immune to Burn as well, which makes him much harder to scare out. Adaptability fixes that 80 BP right up, and when most pokemon set to counter him are running physical defense instead of special defense, he's going to have a much easier time of getting through "counters", even with a weaker attack.
Well i agree that both NP and CC are good sets but it's just his SD set is alot better
Your opinion. In my opinion, the special sets are better because they have fewer counters. Both are good, and his ability to run both is a large part of what makes him suspect-worthy. You can't have one pokemon to deal with both sets, both have very different counters. making him overcentralizing as you have to have 2 pokemon on your team, one for each set.
 
Well i agree that both NP and CC are good sets but it's just his SD set is alot better
If you're looking at this purely in a vacuum based on Luc's stats, you would be right. However, in the actual metagame in which we play, there are more counters and checks to the physical set, making the special one more threatening overall. We play in reality, not in fantasy theorymon land where the only thing that determines a set's power is base power and stats.
 
It doesn't really matter which set is better really, but the fact that you have to guess which one it is when sending in your counter is part of what makes mega-Lucario so broken. Its really low risk just to set up on mons that can't do anything to it, and really extremely bad for the opponent when they guess wrong.
 
No it's not. They're almost equally just as good. In fact, NP is considered by most as the better set.
lmfao yeah by who? how is NP better then SD when close combat is stronger then aura sphere. besides with vacumm wave and nasty plot you have to run flash cannon (shit coverage move except for florges) and aura sphere. bullet punch is good for fairies and scarf pokemon while e speed is good for talonflame and rotom wash. as for lucario's sd set you can run swords dance, close combat its most powerful move, earthquake or ice punch depending on what u want to hit harder between aegislash and gliscor and their's bp or extremespeed you can run
 
If you're looking at this purely in a vacuum based on Luc's stats, you would be right. However, in the actual metagame in which we play, there are more counters and checks to the physical set, making the special one more threatening overall. We play in reality, not in fantasy theorymon land where the only thing that determines a set's power is base power and stats.
Name all the checks to SD and NP lucario then
 
lmfao yeah by who? how is NP better then SD when close combat is stronger then aura sphere. besides with vacumm wave and nasty plot you have to run flash cannon (shit coverage move except for florges) and aura sphere. bullet punch is good for fairies and scarf pokemon while e speed is good for talonflame and rotom wash. as for lucario's sd set you can run swords dance, close combat its most powerful move, earthquake or ice punch depending on what u want to hit harder between aegislash and gliscor and their's bp or extremespeed you can run
Wait... so you call one Steel move terrible and then call another one good? For the exact same reason? What? NP Luke can use Aura Sphere and Shadow ball for perfect coverage and most people are more prepared for the SD set, giving NP an element of surprise. See my earlier post, and Ratchet's.

Name all the checks to SD and NP lucario then
Moltres, Bulky Gyarados, and Zapdos. The only counters to both sets. Very few counters to Special Megaluke because of the aforementioned element of surprise, and because most pokemon run physical defense. It has either better coverage with Shadow Ball or better spread-out damage output with Flash cannon- NP Luke is the only set to make good use of Luke's Steel STAB as an offensive option apart from priority, allowing him to hit neutral targets harder.
 
Good job with the personal attacks. Feel proud. The scarfer argument is irrelevant because... god damn, this is bordering on parody. IT. APPLIES. TO. EVERY. OFFENSIVE. POKEMON. It cannot be used against luke because then we could apply it to Ubers pokemon that have no place in OU. Also, revenge killing should not be the only reliable way of dealing with something, if it can only be revenge killed with much reliability then it's overpowered.

All those revenging tactics help of course, but again, how can they be used against Luke in particular when they're blanket modifiers that effect tons of things? How do they stop Luke from being Uber? Those points aren't exclusive to Luke, nor are they particular enough to be used as an argument. Sticky web, sash, all those are downsides for pretty much everything. You're arguing not against Luke but against every sweeper in the game by using them. Might as well say every pokemon in Ubers should be OU because, lol, scarf and sashes, amirite?!

EDIT: I noticed you failed to answer any of my other points. I'm not sure if that's a strawman or not, but it's certainly bad debating.
I said I think it should be banned. Has huge pros and huge cons. Some believe the cons are more powerful, some the opposite. I appologize for attacking personally, but I do agree it should be banned for the. community's sake.
 
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