I know Raseri decided that Charizard won't be voted on at this time, but I wanted to mention really quickly that I do believe that both Scolipede and Jynx leaving the tier would make Charizard infinitely easier to check. First off, without insanely fast Spikes everywhere, it becomes far more easy to switch in potential checks without just straight up getting 2HKOed. And without Jynx in the tier, running bulky Water-types is much less of a liability because you can much more safely spam Water-type attacks without the fear of Jynx coming in for free.
But I digress because it's really not that relevant to the subject at hand. :)
Hot N Cold mentioned that a well played Scolipede can get up at least two layers of Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes against a variety of threats, and this is something that I outlined in my original post which really make it clear to me that Scolipede is too hard on NU. He specifically mentioned Gurdurr, Alomomola, Metang, Vileplume, Skuntank, and other Scolipede, which are all very true. In fact, a lot of my games with offensive Scolipede led to Scolipede vs. Scolipede setting up Spikes on one another eventually, whether it was at the very beginning or later on in the match. What makes it especially difficult is that it's rarely as easy as leading with your Rock Blast Golem and praying for the best. Scolipede can almost always just switch out and come back later against pretty much every that isn't Musharna or the rare Brave Bird Mandibuzz or a bulky Rock-type and set up again.
I also totally agree with Django. Even bulkier Scolipede sets still hit relatively hard. Having a 120 BP STAB is going to do that for you. The Pokemon that noobcubed listed are also generally subpar in this metagame, with exceptions going out to Misdreavus, Braviary, and to an extent Klang. But even then, any Klang barring CroKlang is going to despise coming in to try to take advantage of the free turns because it relies heavily on its bulk and not its power in order to set up, so as long as you've still got something to smash through Klang (which you should that early on into the match), the Klang user isn't going to be at an advantage because they'll likely be forced to switch.
Jynx is still a really difficult one for me. People bring up good points on both sides, and in my practical experience against it and when preparing for it, I rarely thought, "wow, this thing is clearly too problematic." One of the biggest issues I've had with Jynx is that Choice Scarf sets can cripple its checks in two different ways: both with Trick and with Lovely Kiss. This is also what makes Jynx so effective against so many playstyles. Against more defensive and bulky teams, it can Trick its Choice Scarf onto its best checks, which never enjoy losing their item and especially despise gaining a Choice Scarf. Then against more offensive teams, it doesn't need to worry about Tricking its Choice Scarf and can instead just go balls to the wall offensively. Life Orb sets have no reliable counters, but this alone won't convince me that Jynx is banworthy. It's the combination of the power of all of its sets that really makes me reconsider my stance on it. It isn't even about Jynx's unpredictability, because I honestly don't find this to be an issue when handling it. The only things you really need to scout for while you're checking Jynx is whether or not it has Focus Blast. If it doesn't, you can check it with Probopass and Klang, and if it does, you can't. It's really that simple because everything that checks Jynx otherwise can do so against all of its sets, just that some can obviously do it better than others. Choice Scarf or just generally fast Pursuit users can also handle Jynx to an extent, but I've never liked using Choiced Pursuit because it completely forfeits any momentum you had and opens up a switch for the opponent to set up.
scorpdestroyer said:
It's not like any of those Pokemon are difficult to find on most teams. Sure, they can't switch in safely all the time, but other Pokemon like Electabuzz, Swanna, and Floatzel have similar coverage, power, and Speed and are hard to switch into, but aren't broken for that reason. Lovely Kiss does bring Jynx to a higher up level, but most of the arguments here treat it like Lovely Kiss is a skillless move that can be used any time, but that usually isn't the case because Jynx relies on it a lot to check its opponents and most good teams carry at least 2 checks to Jynx, so the Jynx user must actually consider when the appropriate time to use Lovely Kiss is. And it's not like having to carry more than 1 check to something makes it broken; a lot of teams without Musharna or Misdreavus are able to handle Sawk well by carrying 2 things that check it.
I really don't agree with this line of thinking that much. The problem here is that Jynx has so many more benefits over Pokemon such as Electabuzz, Swanna, and Floatzel. The most obvious one is its amazing STAB coverage. In NU, the only things that resist it are Steel-types, which are hit by Focus Blast, Grumpig, Shedinja, Sneasel, which is hit by Focus Blast, and opposing Jynx. Outside of that, you can run insane gimmicks such as Houndour (miss you
shnen) or Carvanha, but that's pretty much all you've got. Aside from its amazing STAB, Jynx obviously also has Lovely Kiss, which has been explained at length already. I do agree with you that it cannot just be spammed because of how crucial Lovely Kiss is in handling Jynx, but consider this: you can swap in your best Jynx check. If your opponent decides to put that to sleep, it has done its job. If they attack, you could obviously double switch out into something for sleep fodder, but at that point, you're put into an uncomfortable position. What do you want to do? Go back to your main Jynx check and, in doing so, forfeit momentum while your opponent may (and should) double switch, as it's completely safe for them to do so, or risk Jynx staying in and losing your sleep fodder, only to allow it to put something else to sleep? This is the kind of effect Jynx can have on a battle. It forces nasty mind-games where, if you make a mistake, you'll probably lose a Pokemon or at least have one severely crippled, while the Jynx user loses absolutely nothing at all. Also, in terms of raw stats, Jynx still has the edge over the ones you listed in terms of attacking prowess. The comparison to Sawk is also a poor one for the reason I just stated about the mind-games Jynx plays. Sure, you'll have some mind-games with Sawk (which move will they lock into?), but these are nothing compared to the ones that Jynx forces. Sawk is also notably slower than Jynx, which opens up the number of checks to it.
scorpdestroyer said:
Another point that was surprisingly not brought up at all was that Jynx is extremely frail and has very few opportunities to actually do work. This was the main reason why Jynx wasn't banned the last time and I believe not much has changed. I think we can all agree that Jynx has lots of trouble switching into the battlefield because a lot of neutral hits can either harm it severely or even outright KO it.
I actually have some problems with this line of thinking as well. What you fail to consider is that there are more ways to get Jynx into play than simply just switching it in. Probably the best partner for Jynx, Probopass, provides Jynx with a slow Volt Switch so that it can get in and threaten the opponent. There are also other slow Volt Switch, U-turn, and Baton Pass users that can assist Jynx in getting onto the field. It can also of course come in on a revenge kill, and sacrificing something to get Jynx in isn't always such a bad thing when it has the potential to put something to sleep and kill something else in its time on the field. There are plenty of other Pokemon that are similar to Jynx in this regard. Probably the most notable one is Zangoose, which really needs to find that free switch in order to activate its Toxic Orb. You rarely if ever see a Zangoose come in any other way than on a double switch or on a slow U-turn or Volt Switch, and while it does hamper its effectiveness, it doesn't stop it from being such an incredible force in the metagame because slow pivots are really common in this tier.
I agree with most of the rest of your post, but I think it's important to consider what's going to happen in an actual game vs. what appears to be the case on paper.
noobcubed said:
Maybe, having come late to the tier and having never experienced an NU without Jynx, I don't fully appreciate how much she has warped the metagame. But I can certainly see that, for example, it's a metagame where 90 base speed is way slower than 100, where seemingly powerful Ice-types like Regice and Rotom-F are generally passed over because there is not much reason to use them over Jynx, where, even disregarding the gimmicks mentioned above, Skuntank runs Lum Berry, Metang runs Bullet Punch, Samurott often runs Megahorn even on its special-attacking sets, etc, specifically for her.
To be fair, those were always standard sets. Skuntank's Lum Berry allows it to more reliably handle Misdreavus, which can Will-O-Wisp it, and Musharna, which can Thunder Wave or Yawn it. Priority is priority, and even moderately weak Steel priority is still nice to have to finish off weakened opponents. Samurott's Megahorn is also notable for 2HKOing offensive Ludicolo, even with a -SpA nature. Probably important to mention these things because they won't just disappear without Jynx in the tier.
I think that's about everything I've got to say. I know I said a lot, but I'd like to think that most of what I said wasn't just repeated information.