XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

The fact that EB can take advantage of Scarf's qualities so well without even having the item is definitely a sign of its brokeness. No other Pokemon gets to do this because no other non-broken Pokemon threatens such a big portion of the metagame with a single set, while also having its main STAB move to be U-turn.

Didn't Expert Belt Keldeo do that last gen? It too was in a high speed tier, arguable better than Genesect. Perhaps the Keldeo is less likely to get surprise kills last gen since there are many Pokemon that do well against it (almost to the point of hard countering) in that meta (depending on its Hidden Power), no matter what item or set it runs.

If one say they simply dislike the play style of Genesect than I would more or less agree with him, but I hate how people allege something overpowered and ban worthy when it is simply a matter of fact that it is out of their comfort zone.

Would be largely agree with my posts that argued that Genesect was a tactical Pokemon? It can force really quick games on the right team and playing style.

 

[OrdA]

Hey there,

this is my first suspect test, so take it easy on me :) mods: if i made any mistakes in this posting, please let me know via pm.

reqs for both ladders in one screenshot, using the /rank command in chat on the right: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9207945/pkladder/gen6oususpect_reqs.png

I haven't included my calcs to avoid making this spammy, but if there's any you would like to see just ask for them.

--

My opinions may be biased, looking at things from the perspective of stall, because that's what i mainly play. Not sure if for any threat, there has to exist a way to deal with it inside stall.

no ban Deoxys-S: has an effectively bigger movepool than its brother, deoxys-d. Its higher attack stats mean that it is harder to switch into and stop its hazard setup fast. But it is also frail, meaning that it is extremely important to correctly predict when to use taunt/magic coat and when not to.

ban Lucario-mega: Let us talk about counters, that is if Luce-m is given a free switch in on something that is complete setup bait and i have to switch, what can i switch into it and force it out with 100% of the time. Basically what i've heared mentioned is Assault Vest Slowbro, Expert Belt Zapdos, bulky Gyarados, Aegislash, physically defensive Volcarona and Assault Vest Tangrowth.

Please consider calc'ing focus blast as well for +2 special lucario. It loses some of its reliability, but does 50% more damage than aura sphere and can break some things we consider for switch ins far more easily.

It feels like the better something switches into luce-m, the weaker it grows to stealth rock. The exceptions being regenerator users Slowbro and Tangrowth.
Assault Vest Slowbro: baring a flinch on dark pulse, this is the only counter i would call solid, but it needs a very specialized ev spread and i feel like it doesn't add a lot besides beating mega lucario (lando-i maybe?).
Expert Belt Zapdos, bulky Gyarados: They can counter both the physical and special set at the same time, but i would like to call them shaky coutners because they die to a double switch on rocks: if i bring in lucario and then immediately switch again, i can force them out without letting them use any recovery. The next time they come in, they will have taken 50% damage already (minus one lefties tick, mayhaps).
Aegislash: lives a +2 dark pulse from special luce-m and has leftovers to recover stealth rock damage, but if it takes a dark pulse on the first switch in it can't take a +2 dark pulse next time.
physically defensive Volcarona: is more like an illustration of how stealth rock ruins luce-m switch ins: This is probably the best switch in and otherwise useful team member without rocks up.
Assault Vest Tangrowth: dies to focus blast.

Overall, Luce-m counters are far too constrained by dealing with it and don't do much else outside (much unlike volcarona, which is great even without luce). Some need to carry assault vests and very carefully chosen ev spreads, are weak to stealth rock, etc.

ban Genesect: Not only is it hard enough to switch into repeatedly, it is not enough to counter Genesect. Forcing it to keep switching does not accomplish a lot, that is what it does anyway. Because it forces a lot of switches and can capitalize on them with u-turn, it provides its team with too much free Momentum.
The only solution i have found to this is running a rocky helmet user that can switch into Genesect if they have rocks. And the only such pokémon is specially defensive Heatran.

I have found no way to tax u-turn momentum vs hp ground Genesect or the Genesect + Dugtrio combination. There are counters that force it out, but there is no counterplay to its use as a pivot that forces switches from a large part of the metagame.

Another solution i've heard recommended is to run at least 4 pokés that don't allow Genesect to come in for free. Needless to say, this is much too constraining, you would be considering Genesect when making 4 of your rooster choices.



with regards,
Daniel

 

[mertyville]

Didn't Expert Belt Keldeo do that last gen? It too was in a high speed tier, arguable better than Genesect. Perhaps the Keldeo is less likely to get surprise kills last gen since there are many Pokemon that do well against it (almost to the point of hard countering) in that meta (depending on its Hidden Power), no matter what item or set it runs.

All Keldeo sets have one in common, being walled by Jellycent. Now without perma rain, hidden power nerf and the addition of Fairy makes it any offensive set barely usable. Genesect seems to be designed to be played with scarf (even the shiny event-genesect was given away with Choice Scarf), that it is easier to bluff and win with Expert Belt on it than on Hydreigon, Terrakion or many other good attacker who are being really good with scarf and expert belt. Those have even Coverage and Hydreigon has U-Turn. Though 2 pokemon I mentioned have good coverage, they are checked much easier than Genesect, just because most of Genesect's "counters" are weak to SR or not really relevant in OU. Checks are rarely relevant since Genesect fights what it wants to fight.

 

[Photofluid]

The discussion is starting to get really weird =.=

I am so surprised to see that something will be banned with expert belt being a possible reason, while not being a good player myself, I have been always expecting that the element of surprise should not be considered a factor at the highest level of play, where, well, people are expected to know the meta sufficiently well.

The trick of Ebelt is easily uncovered as soon as the opponent player decides to take some risk and don't switch out, just to find themselves outspeeding Genesect.

I still think that Genesect is deemed so powerful simply because people don't play against it correctly and switch out against it way more often than they should.

Anyway, from what I have observed in SPL and various speculations, it seems the pokemon community really likes the risk-proof game

Last words, let us inspect some of the relevant qualities of bans

1. Anti-competitive: Is the paper,rock and scissor game anti-competitive? Probably yes, but more likely not

2. Centralizing the Meta: This is rather funny, because we simply don't have any major counters, even those gimmick sets, to counter Genesect what so ever. (Heatran is a self justifying pokemon)

3. Giving away free turns: So, when do we have our Genesect being switched in? I argue that slow switches and revenge killing is the majority of the occassion, one have already generated the momentum before before Genesect switches in.

4. Sheer power: I don't think unSTABed 90BP moves from 120 BST can by any mean justify itself even with a possible download boost.

To conclude, wanting to ban Genesect is more of an emotional consequence over a result of logical proof

 

[Iodic Acid]

The discussion is starting to get really weird =.=

I am so surprised to see that something will be banned with expert belt being a possible reason, while not being a good player myself, I have been always expecting that the element of surprise should not be considered a factor at the highest level of play, where, well, people are expected to know the meta sufficiently well.

The trick of Ebelt is easily uncovered as soon as the opponent player decides to take some risk and don't switch out, just to find themselves outspeeding Genesect.

I still think that Genesect is deemed so powerful simply because people don't play against it correctly and switch out against it way more often than they should.

Anyway, from what I have observed in SPL and various speculations, it seems the pokemon community really likes the risk-proof game

Last words, let us inspect some of the relevant qualities of bans

1. Anti-competitive: Is the paper,rock and scissor game anti-competitive? Probably yes, but more likely not

2. Centralizing the Meta: This is rather funny, because we simply don't have any major counters, even those gimmick sets, to counter Genesect what so ever. (Heatran is a self justifying pokemon)

3. Giving away free turns: So, when do we have our Genesect being switched in? I argue that slow switches and revenge killing is the majority of the occassion, one have already generated the momentum before before Genesect switches in.

To conclude, wanting to ban Genesect is more of an emotional consequence over a result of logical proof

It seems to me that your not wanting to ban Genesect is more of an emotional consequence over a result of a logical proof, because said "logic" has been debunked over and over but you still either repeat the same argument (there's prediction on both sides therefore it is not overpowered), erect completely irrelevant strawmen (special attack calcs against Blissey), resort to pointless ad hominem (you're just being emotional/ you don't know how to play against it), or suggest things that simply aren't true (Genesect can't switch into any of its 9 resistances).

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

It seems to me that your not wanting to ban Genesect is more of an emotional consequence over a result of a logical proof, because said "logic" has been debunked over and over but you still either repeat the same argument (there's prediction on both sides therefore it is not overpowered), erect completely irrelevant strawmen (special attack calcs against Blissey), resort to pointless ad hominem (you're just being emotional/ you don't know how to play against it), or suggest things that simply aren't true (Genesect can't switch into any of its 9 resistances).

You are indeed correct; his point is rather symmetrical. It is certainly is not an ad hominem as it was his observation. Just pretend you do not have some objective reason why Genesect should be banned; ultimately, it all comes down how the Pokemon arouses your passions and how you perceive their effect on the metagame compares with your perception of an "ideal" metagame.

Perhaps my desire not to win with Mega Lucario may be a manifestation of some mild Karenism (however derisive that term may be).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is–ought_problem
http://www.earlymoderntexts.com/pdfs/hume1740book3_1.pdf

Certainly, the question of whether Genesect should be banned is not a "moral" question, but it concerns issues of "ought", like how the metagame "ought" to be.

 

[sidakarya]

The problem with invoking the is-ought argument as applied here is that suspect tests, by their very nature, are meant to create that, what "ought" to be an ideal metagame. It is only natural, that much of the arguments here concern, what ought to be.

Obviously are moral concerns (whatever they're supposed to be) not playing much into whether it should be banned. But if what you have in mind is uncompetitiveness, or what people perceive to violate the ideal of a skill-based metagame, then yes, things have been banned as a result of this. As it stands, there is basically no forethought as to using Genesect, you just threaten something and U-Turn out. All the opportunity is yanked out of your hands every time that happens, and that is quite understandable, that people would become frustrated with this.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

The problem with invoking the is-ought argument as applied here is that suspect tests, by their very nature, are meant to create that, what "ought" to be an ideal metagame. It is only natural, that much of the arguments here concern, what ought to be.

Obviously are moral concerns (whatever they're supposed to be) not playing much into whether it should be banned. But if what you have in mind is uncompetitiveness, or what people perceive to violate the ideal of a skill-based metagame, then yes, things have been banned as a result of this. As it stands, there is basically no forethought as to using Genesect, you just threaten something and U-Turn out. All the opportunity is yanked out of your hands every time that happens, and that is quite understandable, that people would become frustrated with this.

I currently lack the intellectual energy to construct a detailed argument as many of my and Photofluid's earlier posts have, but the risk-reward profile highly depends on the situation. Playing with or against Genesect requires the mastery of the rudiments of risk-reward profiles of numerous situations, and the Expert Belt set requires creating a false sense of security and taking advantage of information asymmetry. Indeed, these are certainly elements of a skill-based metagame. The Genesect user has initiative and advantage to create those risk-reward profiles, and present them to her opponent, who can then respond.

Genesect can be used as a "momentum generator" and be out in the open. Or it can be in the back ranks and be used to revenge kill something when its King (or the hub of Skynet) is threatened. It can indeed take about one or two resisted STAB hits or non-STAB hit later in the game as it satisfactory bulk and typing allows if it needs to switch in and protect another one of its teammates, but this can only happen if it hasn't been worn down by entry hazards and hit back. That is indeed one of its assets.

--

To illustrate:

http://paste.ubuntu.com/6859249/

Pinsir's checks and counters.

| Talonflame 72.201 (74.06±0.47) |
| (36.0% KOed / 38.1% switched out)|
| Skarmory 71.201 (74.00±0.70) |
| (21.5% KOed / 52.5% switched out)|
| Aerodactyl 69.208 (76.28±1.77) |
| (43.3% KOed / 32.9% switched out)|
| Rhyperior 64.014 (72.42±2.10) |
| (37.7% KOed / 34.7% switched out)|
| Thundurus 63.869 (68.37±1.13) |
| (34.0% KOed / 34.3% switched out)
| | Zapdos 62.538 (68.14±1.40) |
| (28.2% KOed / 40.0% switched out)|
| Avalugg 62.134 (71.60±2.37) |
| (35.3% KOed / 36.3% switched out)|
| Ditto 56.800 (61.19±1.10) |
| (35.0% KOed / 26.1% switched out)|
| Manectric 56.669 (61.66±1.25) |
| (38.1% KOed / 23.5% switched out)|
| Genesect 56.647 (58.83±0.55) |
| (39.0% KOed / 19.8% switched out)|
| Thundurus-Therian 55.142 (62.96±1.95) |
| (36.0% KOed / 27.0% switched out)|
| Aggron 53.469 (60.32±1.71) |
| (38.1% KOed / 22.2% switched out

Actually, this is the only Pokemon that shows up as something that Genesect "checks", and it is rather dubious one as we will soon see.

Now... what happens if your Heatran, Excadrill or something low on health becomes Moxie bait:

+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 169-199 (59.7 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Do you think using it imprudently to generate momentum would be a good idea? Genesect utility gets worn down if it switches into entry hazards. Hazard control is a symmetrical peripheral game of strategic positioning. Genesect certainly does have carte blanche to U-Turn as much as it pleases (assuming no Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs or Rough Skin) if there are no entry hazards. But it costs a turn (a tempo or momentum) to control hazards, a Pokemon and moveslot to use that a hazard control support move. If you do not use hazard control, as I do not, Genesect has to be played very conservatively.

 

[Photofluid]

It seems to me that your not wanting to ban Genesect is more of an emotional consequence over a result of a logical proof, because said "logic" has been debunked over and over but you still either repeat the same argument (there's prediction on both sides therefore it is not overpowered), erect completely irrelevant strawmen (special attack calcs against Blissey), resort to pointless ad hominem (you're just being emotional/ you don't know how to play against it), or suggest things that simply aren't true (Genesect can't switch into any of its 9 resistances).

Gosh, the Blissey calculation was to compare it with Tornadus-T in last gen, which was arouse in some previous argument, my intention was completely distorted.

Also, no one have ever provided any solid argument against the prediction issue except various statements sharing the identical information of "because I hate statistics", I repeat my stands again and again because I saw posts which repeatedly denying the former analysis and I know those guys won't read through the previous posts.

And I did left rooms for counter argument, draft the statistical analysis against Genesect and other top tier pokemon and the result may possibly violates the theories I proposed before. Anyway, I know no one will do so, and I don't necessarily process the knowledge required to understand them either lolz, but I may try if there are someone working on stats posting calculations.

Also, the "pointless ad hominem" I have drawn can be backed up with evidences.

Being emotional: This is quite difficult, because so many people don't even bother to read through the previous posts are not participating in the debate at all.

Don't know how to play against it: Everyone simply switch out against Gensect and switch in Heatran/Conk, etc. without a second thought. These are all admitted by the posters themselves. And I think I have already proven why this is not the correct way you play against Genesect.

Difficult switch in: At least from my personal experiences(disprove me if I am wrong), the majority of its switch in comes from revenge killing and slow-switch (Rotom/Forretress, etc.). It should also be note that assume you want Gensect to switch in 5 times in one game(a reasonable number for a pivot), than for each switch in it has to take an average of less than 56.6 damage with EH taken into account. If present, SR alone does 35/36 depending on the round up or round down which I have forgotten. Yup, prove me you want it to take attacks.



However, I should agree that the reason I am arguing for Genesect to stay OU is solely because I subjectively like its play style, or else I won't even bother spending more than an hour on this thread because I am not a council member or anything else, and am not obligated to do so. (disclaimer: and also that I can argue for it without distorting facts = =)



Anyway, one correction to my previous posts, energy ball IS a viable option on Genesect as a replacement of thunderbolt, as the reason of using thunderbolt is to get pass water types anyway, by doing so you can get pass electrics and earths, notably Rotom-W and Gastrondon, though I doubt if you are having much problems against them to begin with.

However, the opportunity cost here is that you now miss out quite some others from your coverage, most notably Talonflame, Charizard Y (and X before Mevo) and pre Mevo Gayarodos. You also lose out neutral coverage, most notably your last resort against Heatran (Tbolt does some 30-40%). Last but not least, energy ball is also the least possible option for you to clean up weakened pokemons.

All and all, a sub-optimal choice, but still usable and hence should not be completely denied.

However, Giga drain is probably not very acceptable I may say.

252 SpA Genesect Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 186-220 (46 - 54.4%) -- 55.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Genesect Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 220-260 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Sturdynips]

The discussion is starting to get really weird =.=

I am so surprised to see that something will be banned with expert belt being a possible reason, while not being a good player myself, I have been always expecting that the element of surprise should not be considered a factor at the highest level of play, where, well, people are expected to know the meta sufficiently well.

The trick of Ebelt is easily uncovered as soon as the opponent player decides to take some risk and don't switch out, just to find themselves outspeeding Genesect.

I still think that Genesect is deemed so powerful simply because people don't play against it correctly and switch out against it way more often than they should.

Anyway, from what I have observed in SPL and various speculations, it seems the pokemon community really likes the risk-proof game

Last words, let us inspect some of the relevant qualities of bans

1. Anti-competitive: Is the paper,rock and scissor game anti-competitive? Probably yes, but more likely not

2. Centralizing the Meta: This is rather funny, because we simply don't have any major counters, even those gimmick sets, to counter Genesect what so ever. (Heatran is a self justifying pokemon)

3. Giving away free turns: So, when do we have our Genesect being switched in? I argue that slow switches and revenge killing is the majority of the occassion, one have already generated the momentum before before Genesect switches in.

4. Sheer power: I don't think unSTABed 90BP moves from 120 BST can by any mean justify itself even with a possible download boost.

To conclude, wanting to ban Genesect is more of an emotional consequence over a result of logical proof

Your argument about the element of surprise not being very effective in high level play is not true; tournaments and other high level matches actually facilitate unexpected moves, items, etc. If you don't believe me, head over to the SPL forum and watch a few replays.

The trick of Ebelt is easily uncovered as soon as the opponent player decides to take some risk and don't switch out, just to find themselves outspeeding Genesect.

This is fundamentally wrong, and is in fact the very reason why Genesect is being tested. No other Pokemon epitomizes the concept of risk vs reward the way Genesect does. You say the opponent decides to take a risk; well consider this: Which is less risky, leaving your Landorus-T in on a Genesect in the hope of easily taking a U turn, or switching to something that can take an Ice Beam? The answer is to switch out, because if you stay in you risk losing your Landorus-T. It is this coverage and power of Scarf Genesect that, in turn, makes Ebelt so dangerous.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Anyway, one correction to my previous posts, energy ball IS a viable option on Genesect as a replacement of thunderbolt, as the reason of using thunderbolt is to get pass water types anyway, by doing so you can get pass electrics and earths, notably Rotom-W and Gastrondon, though I doubt if you are having much problems against them to begin with.

Minor note:

Not necessarily... Thunderbolt allows you skewer a Water and Flying type while Grass has worse coverage in general but it can at least skewer a Water and a Ground type without of secondary typing that resists Grass on the switch in. Picking coverage moves is much more than what they can threaten individually. If one is using Energy Ball to directly attack Rotom-W, one should remember that it has only a third of the power of Bug Buzz (and it has the somewhat nifty ability to go through Subs, but most sub users have a resistance to Bug). Rotom-W is often worn down and the extra power Energy Ball may not be needed over the general neutral power of Bug Bug in other situations.

However, I should agree that the reason I am arguing for Genesect to stay OU is solely because I subjectively like its play style, or else I won't even bother spending more than an hour on this thread because I am not a council member or anything else, and am not obligated to do so.

This is what it all boils down to.

Your argument about the element of surprise not being very effective in high level play is not true; tournaments and other high level matches actually facilitate unexpected moves, items, etc. If you don't believe me, head over to the SPL forum and watch a few replays.


This is fundamentally wrong, and is in fact the very reason why Genesect is being tested. No other Pokemon epitomizes the concept of risk vs reward the way Genesect does. You say the opponent decides to take a risk; well consider this: Which is less risky, leaving your Landorus-T in on a Genesect in the hope of easily taking a U turn, or switching to something that can take an Ice Beam? The answer is to switch out, because if you stay in you risk losing your Landorus-T. It is this coverage and power of Scarf Genesect that, in turn, makes Ebelt so dangerous.

EBelt Genesect is dangerous against stall teams if played correct. For instance, if you have a Rotom-W and you use it to switch into the U-turn, and he uses Ice Beam. Would your opponent want to use U-turn again against Genesect or just manually switch-out. In that situation, one can essentially treat it as a Scarf Genesect, but still you have to wary of Expert Belt.

Also, one does have the weight the probability it has Expert Belt. A play can indeed let it die and send in something that isn't threatened by Genesect (although not weak to any of its moves) such as a Rotom-W with a slow Volt Switch that can again momentum as Genesect switches out. Or send it something that would be damaged if it switches moves, but this is a calculated risk that the player assumes and has to be a judgment based on how Genesect was used during the course of the battle, the composition of your opponent's team, and the overall prevalence of Expert Belt Genesect in the metagame. This decision would depend on whether the Lando-T is useful to the player, a rather situational and contextual consideration that cannot be easily quantified. Genesect could return and threaten it again.

The difference arises when the E-belt set faces faster Pokemon. Sometimes the opposing player may call the bluff and attack. Genesect would be endangered from the attack and then exposed. If your opponent has faster Pokemon, Genesect is likely dead and as it cannot strike first.

 

[Photofluid]

Your argument about the element of surprise not being very effective in high level play is not true; tournaments and other high level matches actually facilitate unexpected moves, items, etc. If you don't believe me, head over to the SPL forum and watch a few replays.


This is fundamentally wrong, and is in fact the very reason why Genesect is being tested. No other Pokemon epitomizes the concept of risk vs reward the way Genesect does. You say the opponent decides to take a risk; well consider this: Which is less risky, leaving your Landorus-T in on a Genesect in the hope of easily taking a U turn, or switching to something that can take an Ice Beam? The answer is to switch out, because if you stay in you risk losing your Landorus-T. It is this coverage and power of Scarf Genesect that, in turn, makes Ebelt so dangerous.

The reason that the element of surprise should not be considered effective is because each pokemon has a fixed movepool and limited options of item choice, the better you are, the more you are expected to be aware of those gimmick strategies, and because things can be expected, it effectiveness decreases.

Also, you are probably misunderstanding the definition of "risk". To calculate the expected value we not only includes individual values but also their respective probability. In the case of Land-T, while you risk being OHKO by ice beam, it simply does not matter if the Genesect is not firing it off anyway. And given that you have no information about the personality of your opponent (note that this can be scouted, especially in the tournament cases when you know who your opponent is), statistically you know the Genesect is more likely to just U-turn away, which means that the gambit of staying in is at least an viable option.

If we are to deny the probability completely, we should participate in every single lucky draw because the award of thousands is always beyond the cost several dollars.

Anyway, for the wall breaking potential, Ebelt Genesect don't do the thing any better than Kyu-B when your opponent is anticipated. Plus if it is a strategy that may risk Genesect a ban, than everyone should be aware of it.

 

[alexwolf]

Didn't Expert Belt Keldeo do that last gen? It too was in a high speed tier, arguable better than Genesect. Perhaps the Keldeo is less likely to get surprise kills last gen since there are many Pokemon that do well against it (almost to the point of hard countering) in that meta (depending on its Hidden Power), no matter what item or set it runs.

Keldeo couldn't force out more than half of the metagame while gaining momentum at the same time, and this makes all the difference. At least against Keldeo you could pack some of its checks / counters and be safe from it (Pokemon that were safe even against CB Tyranitar existed yeah), but with Genesect you don't only have to worry about him, but about his common Volt-turn teammates, which is a ridiculously high number of Pokemon.

 

[LoDart210]

I was anti-ban previously, concerning genesect, mostly because I was glad to run my rock polish special set again (I'm a total scrub, I don't run u turn, I use it as a late game sweeper)

However after playing a little while longer I have to say the pro ban side has the right idea.

Earlier in the thread I argued that banning a Pokemon due to one move is far fetched. However after playing quite a few matches against this slippery for, I have to agree, it is a terror on the battlefield.

The only time I could beat it was using my AV entei, or when I baited a attack download boosted genesect to use thunderbolt against my char Y. I make particular note of the download boost because, well:

+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 248-292 (83.2 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Not a lot of room for error.


He's good. I love genesect, but that u turn.... 100 bp, free escape AND momentum button?

No move should do that many things.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

This discussion seems to be over...all the relevant points have been made, and just about everyone has made up their mind by now. I cant tell if some people are trolling or not anymore because some of the previous points are obvious malarchy. From what ive seen, id say lucarionite is banned, genesect is banned, and maybe deo-s(probably not).

There have been so many good points in this thread and i feel like it could just get worse from this point on...

That being said though, Im a touch concerned about deo-s, while i dont think he should be banned now, I think he might need to be banned later. If that makes sense. Can a poke be suspected twice? Sorry for my ignorance

btw I say this because i havent seen people using deo-s' most dangerous set that often. He is usually just a suicide lead, but once the LO set gets around more that could be trouble, but maybe not i mean aegislash and tflame are so popular and could stop him....so idk lol

just wondering

 

[LoDart210]

This discussion seems to be over...all the relevant points have been made, and just about everyone has made up their mind by now. I cant tell if some people are trolling or not anymore because some of the previous points are obvious malarchy. From what ive seen, id say lucarionite is banned, genesect is banned, and maybe deo-s(probably not).

There have been so many good points in this thread and i feel like it could just get worse from this point on...

That being said though, Im a touch concerned about deo-s, while i dont think he should be banned now, I think he might need to be banned later. If that makes sense. Can a poke be suspected twice? Sorry for my ignorance

btw I say this because i havent seen people using deo-s' most dangerous set that often. He is usually just a suicide lead, but once the LO set gets around more that could be trouble, but maybe not i mean aegislash and tflame are so popular and could stop him....so idk lol

just wondering

Yes a Pokemon can be suspected as many times as necessary, although I'm interested in your reasoning for a possible future ban.

 

[Serrak]

Shall this be applied to Rotom-W and Heatran as well, playing multiple roles and solving many teambuilding issues is not a reason for a ban.

Also, I was comparing Megachomp and Kyu-B with EBelt Genesect(or more realistically life orb Genesect because EBelt is gimmick at best), so don't make it wrong, it does sacrifices speed

Plus, I thought I have shown way ago that Genesect do not Wall Break, not with a scarf set at least.

Also, if the player predicts well is another unfair statement, the burden of prediction lies on both side

On the other hand, Genesect differs from Tornadus-T in the sense that it does not have a spammable STAB with 120 BP, the damage level of the two is simply unmatched.

252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 72-85 (10 - 11.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever
+1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 107-127 (14.9 - 17.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 161-191 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery\

And keep in mind that is a post-nerfed Hurricane.



I think I have said before Genesect generally has a difficult time switching in?

Also, the user of Genesect does not necessarily predicts better than their opponent, if prediction is by any mean accepted as a kind of skill, being out-predicted should deserve a lost I guess?

Anyway, most of the theorycrafting job is done so hopefully no more text wall analysis is needed.

If one say they simply dislike the play style of Genesect than I would more or less agree with him, but I hate how people allege something overpowered and ban worthy when it is simply a matter of fact that it is out of their comfort zone.

Red Cat's points may also apply to Heatran and Rotom-W, but these two are clearly OU because they have common counters. Half of OU learned Earthquake last generation, and anything with as much attack as uninvested neutral natured Life Orb Latios has a chance to OHKO SpDef Tran from full health (and a large chance to KO after rocks). Heatran is also weak to water and fighting, two of the most common attacking types in OU. Rotom-W is incapable of doing real damage to Grass types, special walls and Dragon types. Who (unlike Fire types) are quite common. Things like Celebi, Venusaur, poison heal Breloom, Ferrothorn, Chansey, Blissey, the Latis, Gastrodon and Hydreigon can come in with near impunity knowing they counter Rotom-W. Both, in addition, are depressingly far under the base 100 OU standard speed, while Genesect is just one point short. As a result it gets the jump on most things not running a positive speed nature even if it forgoes the scarf.

The lack of a high BP spammable STAB is mitigated somewhat by it's ability to hit from either side. You neglect to mention that standard 252/252+ defense blissey takes 160-189, or 22.4%-26.5% from unboosed, uninvested, neutral natured U-Turn, functionally the same amount of damage as Tornadus-Ts "spammable STAB move". You could argue that a bug resistant physical wall would come in, but the fact remains that Genesect can hit most of them super effectively on their weaker special defense. Genesect lacks a spammable STAB option, but doesn't really need one to do it's job. I'm not going to focus on to wallbreak/not to wallbreak, but the fact remains Genesect's coverage means it can one or two-shot a lot of OU physical walls and dent common special walls with U-Turn.

I would like to ask you to please stop using the "prediction goes both ways", argument. I've proved that VoltTurn (and by extension Genesect) has an advantage in prediction using numbers, and unless you can disprove me with numbers you shouldn't be using this argument. I've had enough experience in arguments like this to know that I must reiterate VoltTurn is not broken, but the prediction advantage combined with Genesect's lack of counters is broken. I'll also reiterate that I admit those numbers are simplified. They are not supposed to be completely accurate, but represent in broad outline the advantage in prediction Genesect/VoltTurn has.

You have said Genesect has a difficult time switching in, but that doesn't make it true. It resists half of all attacking types, is weak to only one and has 71/95/95 bulk, which isn't exactly frail. Even if it had Infernape's 76/71/71 bulk, it wouldn't change the fact that it doesn't need to switch in when it's voltturn buddies can get it in on a switch/against something that doesn't threaten it.

In truth, I don't have too many issues with Genesect. That's because my preferred win condition is a Sand Rush Excadrill, who outspeeds Genesect, laughs at E-Speed and smashes it with a very strong Earthquake. The rest of my team doesn't care too much because their principle job is weakening to opponent enough for Excadrill to clean house. I don't care if Genesect kills them, because what it's killing has probably done it's job in the process. Genesect is not out of my comfort zone. My problem with it is that it has only four hard counters alongside VoltTurn's inherent prediction advantage. The only counter with reliable healing is Megazard-x, who learns roost but is unlikely to use it, so these "reliable" counters can be worn down over the course of a match, especially if they keep getting U-Turned into things that check or counter them.

 

[Salemance]

This discussion seems to be over...all the relevant points have been made, and just about everyone has made up their mind by now. I cant tell if some people are trolling or not anymore because some of the previous points are obvious malarchy. From what ive seen, id say lucarionite is banned, genesect is banned, and maybe deo-s(probably not).

There have been so many good points in this thread and i feel like it could just get worse from this point on...

That being said though, Im a touch concerned about deo-s, while i dont think he should be banned now, I think he might need to be banned later. If that makes sense. Can a poke be suspected twice? Sorry for my ignorance

btw I say this because i havent seen people using deo-s' most dangerous set that often. He is usually just a suicide lead, but once the LO set gets around more that could be trouble, but maybe not i mean aegislash and tflame are so popular and could stop him....so idk lol

just wondering

I'm sorry bud, but if something is deserving of a ban later (like the Deoxsys forms had last gen) would it not be smart to get rid of them sooner rather than later?

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

Yes a Pokemon can be suspected as many times as necessary, although I'm interested in your reasoning for a possible future ban.

Im just thinking that if these other two guys get band i really think it will have an impact on the meta game as whole, I mean as it stands right now most teams on the OU ladder are based around lucario, while utilizing gensect. So I just mean that we will have to see what effects it really has, because when deo-s is put next to gensect and lucario it really doesnt look uber. I know thats not how ubers are judged....but still.

I'm sorry bud, but if something is deserving of a ban later (like the Deoxsys forms had last gen) would it not be smart to get rid of them sooner rather than later?

Yes, to answer your question. But like I said above, I just dont really know how the metagame will be affected by these bans. But this whole thing is really from my lack of ability to convey my thoughts accurately lol. I dont think deo-s will need a ban ever, im just saying it feels like it has some uber qualities, and I could see it staying or leaving.

 

[Salemance]

Yes, to answer your question. But like I said above, I just dont really know how the metagame will be affected by these bans. But this whole thing is really from my lack of ability to convey my thoughts accurately lol. I dont think deo-s will need a ban ever, im just saying it feels like it has some uber qualities, and I could see it staying or leaving.

I see your point, but from what I've read from this thread, many agree with your opinion quite a bit, but I just wouldn't understand why prolong a ban when it might come up again when we could have solved it earlier and suspected something else.

 

[Iodic Acid]

Also, no one have ever provided any solid argument against the prediction issue except various statements sharing the identical information of "because I hate statistics", I repeat my stands again and again because I saw posts which repeatedly denying the former analysis and I know those guys won't read through the previous posts.

There has been no statistics done here by anyone, so lay off the pseudo-intellectualism, please. We'd need overly specific data to construct arguments based on statistics, and so far I haven't seen any from either side, so it's not a matter of innumeracy. What has been going on is casual game theory, and the sharing of what ultimately boils down to opinion, not fact. I wish I could make a table to make it clearer to you why both players needing to guess does not make for an even game in this situation, but I don't really see an easy way to do that on these forums, so I'll just put it in standard English syntax. Again.

If you stay in and win the prediction war, you take STAB, Download-boosted U-turn damage off of 120 attack, and then get a free hit on one of Genesect's teammates. Like all VoltTurners, you don't know which one you're going to hit, but generally it's going to be the one that's best suited to take the majority of your attacks. Unlike all VoltTurners, Genesect's U-turn does way more damage, and before you say "oh so the only difference is the amount of damage", no, there's also the typing, movepool, sweeping potential, ability to hit on both sides, etc etc, and even if it was, damage is the difference between, say, Mega Lucario and, I don't know, Mienshao but no one ever thought that was a good argument against banning Mega Lucario.

If you stay in and lose the prediction war, you die. Do you understand this? Genesect will KILL you. There is no trading damage, no momentum shenanigans, you just straight up die, while accomplishing nothing unless Genesect switched into something with priority and even then you might still die to ExtremeSpeed anyway. Dying SUCKS. It's much, much worse than any payoff you might get from staying in. This is why people generally don't stay in, and why Genesect can U-turn way more than it actually uses its coverage moves, and given full information of the ladder's habits, this is still the optimal strategy for both sides.

Suppose you're given the option to play a game where you and I both pick a number between one and ten, and if we end up picking different numbers then you win five dollars but if we pick the same number I take out a gun and shoot you in the head. Yes, you will usually win the game but nobody is going to play it, for the same reason that people switch out when Genesect is threatening you with a Download-boosted coverage move, of which it has plenty. That's an extreme example that is way out of line with the stakes of a match on Pokemon Showdown, but it's an illustration of why intelligent people pick the seemingly bad move (switch against Genesect) most of the time, and why prediction being on both sides does not in any way imply balance. From there, it's just a matter of degree, just like everything else in suspect testing. It is NOT a solvable math problem which is why no one but yourself is treating it as such.

 

[Red Cat]

I think the logical, philosophical, and ethical arguments for and against banning stuff have been beaten to death on this thread. So, I will just say that having played extensively on the main ladder and somewhat less extensively on the suspect ladder, I personally just find the suspect ladder to be more fun to play on. If I were to describe what Mega Lucario and Genesect do in simple terms it would be that they speed up the game. They make decisions made very early in the game have excessive weight on the outcome of a game; they do not allow you to recover from a misplay early in the game. I think of prediction not as reading your opponent's mind, but as your style of play leading your opponent to make a certain decision which you then can take advantage of. Generally, longer battles give you more opportunities to win or lose these mind games against your opponent which makes the game more dynamic and fun. What Mega Lucario and Genesect do is that they force you to make very risky decisions early in the game when prediction really is glorified guessing. It just makes the outcome of each game seem meaningless. I have also used Genesect and have run into situations multiple times where the speed tie against opposing Genesect has decided the outcome of the game. That also makes the outcome of the game seem meaningless. The game just isn't as fun and the outcome just seems more pointless in a metagame with Mega Lucario and Genesect than without, and that is why many other players and I want to see them gone. (And judging by its usage, you would think Deoxys-S has already been banned. It is extremely hard to determine whether it should be banned or not when it is on the witness protection program.)

 

[LoDart210]

Im just thinking that if these other two guys get band i really think it will have an impact on the meta game as whole, I mean as it stands right now most teams on the OU ladder are based around lucario, while utilizing gensect. So I just mean that we will have to see what effects it really has, because when deo-s is put next to gensect and lucario it really doesnt look uber. I know thats not how ubers are judged....but still.




Yes, to answer your question. But like I said above, I just dont really know how the metagame will be affected by these bans. But this whole thing is really from my lack of ability to convey my thoughts accurately lol. I dont think deo-s will need a ban ever, im just saying it feels like it has some uber qualities, and I could see it staying or leaving.

Are you saying the right now deoxys is merely overshadowed?

I think that's the case for genesect right now actually. It's ban is a turbulent subject because people are more concerned with getting lucarionite banned.

Right now if anything is to be kept a watchful eye on for deoxys, it's the revenge killing capabilities/late game cleaning.

I find then when a team is sufficiently weakened, deoxys can really clean up.

 

[Major Blitz]

Hey guys don't mind me but I'm just gonna sound like a noob fuck for awhile. Alright first we had the almighty blaziken banned in both forms for good reasons. Then mega gengar and khangskhan. And now lucario. Which by the looks of it is definitely getting the ban hammer. But... After these mega pokemon. We only have good ones like pinsir and Mawile in ou while the rest are lower tier megas. Are megas going to be banned until only the shitty ones are left? (I hate mega aggron honestly it's not that bulky as it looks... Taking 30%+ from Rotom volt switch for a supposed unbreakable wall is pretty bad). Though I'm not saying this because my favourite mega is lucario. I'm just wondering how all this banning of mega pokemon is going. Like after awhile we realise nothing can safely switch into Mawile 's attacks. Even Talonflame and Volcarona are gonna be raped by rocks upon entry so they aren't really that good counters. Just my two cents feel free to give me your reasons and opinions.

 

[alexwolf]

Hey guys don't mind me but I'm just gonna sound like a noob fuck for awhile. Alright first we had the almighty blaziken banned in both forms for good reasons. Then mega gengar and khangskhan. And now lucario. Which by the looks of it is definitely getting the ban hammer. But... After these mega pokemon. We only have good ones like pinsir and Mawile in ou while the rest are lower tier megas. Are megas going to be banned until only the shitty ones are left? (I hate mega aggron honestly it's not that bulky as it looks... Taking 30%+ from Rotom volt switch for a supposed unbreakable wall is pretty bad). Though I'm not saying this because my favourite mega is lucario. I'm just wondering how all this banning of mega pokemon is going. Like after awhile we realise nothing can safely switch into Mawile 's attacks. Even Talonflame and Volcarona are gonna be raped by rocks upon entry so they aren't really that good counters. Just my two cents feel free to give me your reasons and opinions.

We ban whatever is broken in the meta, simple as that. We don't care whether it's a MEvo or a regular forme, only if it's broken.