Actually, yes, because Memento is Tauntable [Smeargle is Taunt bait, and an easy lead to predict due to it nearly always leading], and you can't stop an Explosion iirc, even if you're a ghost type, as Explosion will still go through, but the Ghost will take no damage. Personally, I'd probably prefer Memento for more overall utility, but Explosion's definitely useful.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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So after all this, I"m still seeing Smeargle in C - it can be effective given the right support (a team of Sticky Web abusers) and can't consistently execute its strategy (taunt, magic bounce, hazard removal). I'm assuming that the scarf set would require less team support but would also support its team less, while being relatively easy to stop from executing its strategy (set up as it destiny bonds).
Yeah, but with if they trick you scarf and then you're locked into a set-up move?
Parting Shot is also a ridiculously good move, the only problem is that it's only given to a less-than-stellar pokemon.
So do those make Smeargle consistent enough to get past C? (This is a serious question, I"m not trying to be sarcastic).
Missed this post. Medicham also gets Baton Pass, so it can act as offensive pivot. You don't need no stinking Fire Punch when you can just pursuit trap Aegislash (Treecko is a genius by the way.)
The ridiculous power of Medicham's HJK should not be understated. Being able to 2HKO Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Hippowdon, and pretty much everything that doesn't resist HJK is crazy. If the opponent dare have something under base 100 speed (like, uh, Rotom-W) I know I'm pretty much guaranteed to KO something with Medicham. You just can't wall it unless you're using Cresselia or something. It also demolishes VenuTran or whatever it's called, which is otherwise a very solid core. The extent to which Medicham can plow through defensive teams is crazy, there's no good answer to it besides Aegislash and Sableye.
Being able to give something a free of set-up with almost a 100% success rate is really useful IMO. Parting Shot is just so good. Lunar Dance too, and Destiny Bond if the opponent mis-predicts.
And of course that's only one of many, many possible sets it can run. I don't know exactly where I'd but it but it's certainly useful.
S and A ranks sounds accurate, except for Politoed being A- rank is terrible in my opinion, rain teams are not very good, just inconsistent and risky teams, other common mons which actually delete their Drizzle makes this style not solid especially now with the new mega mecanics (ttar, zard and abomasnow), also finally politoed is a bad pokemon itself.
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Rain was actually one of the weathers hit least by the rain nerf, since most rain abusers use it passively anyway - for example, Keldeo is going to be a great pokemon either way but would love the practically free extra 50% power. Drizzle + Swift Swim is pretty good, just as Rain Dance teams were in gen 4 but with a way better rain setter. Manaphy is good too, although it should run rain dance itself in addition if it wants to abuse rest + hydration. Basically, rain teams have a lot of good options and don't fall apart if Politoed dies, but it's hands down the best rain setter there is.
>garchomp
>bulky
Zygarde can take most ice beams with an assault vest since he does not need to set up to be dangerous, whilst garchomp needs a dragon dance to outspeed and hope to live any super effective attack.
Zygarde also gets priority, unlike garchomp
These are 2 pokemon with 2 different play styles.
You should never use extremespeed on zygarde. A +2 adamant nature fails to even secure an OHKO on frail shit like greninja; that's just pathetic.
They are 2 different pokemon, but you should know that garchomp is not frail. In fact, it has more bulk than swampert, if you wanna talk BST.
Also, nobody uses AV zygarde, 100 base attack with a crappy movepool doesn't get you anywhere, AV is in general a bad idea. Zygarde does need to set up to pose any sort of threat, again, a 100 base attack with crappy movepool will not get you far. Garchomp, on the other hand, has a beautiful movepool and fabulous attack stat that can even act as an offensive hazard setter.
Garchomp also has a great speed stat, putting him above 100s, while zygarde is the one who has to dragon dance to hope he won't die to some random ic punch from mega medicham or something.
I love zygarde to death, but garchomp>>>zygarde
Zygarde is bulkier then Garchomp, but Chomper's still no pushover- 108/95/85 is very good. And what are you talking about with setup, did you mix up the names? Zygarde has pathetic offensive ability without setup, Garchomp's the one who should be considering Assault Vest. And Garchomp doesn't even GET Dragon Dance!
>using the memearrows outside of 4chan
Also, Zygarde is immediately threatening but Garchomp needs to set up to be threatening? Is this opposite day? Zygarde doesn't scare anything with that "meh" 100 base attack and absolutely needs a couple Dragon Dances/Coils to start putting in work while Garchomp (who doesn't even get Dragon Dance btw) automatically scares things with its 130 base attack and 102 speed.
Garchomp with Dragon Dance would have been broken insane in Generation 5, but people forget that 102 Base speed is nothing to laugh at, aspecially since Chomp has access to Swords Dance.
But I don't think that Zygarde is comparable to Chomp, because Zygarde has a complete different role.
Zygarde gets Glare as well (in addition to Dragon Dance) to make up for its "bad" speed and can outspeed with Espeed, if it wishes to.
It needs to set up for sweep, unlike Garchomp, but has more options for being used defensively. Sure, Chomp might be bulky enough to be called "defensive" but has not much to use for it. (Toxic Staller Chomp ftw lol)
But I don't think that Zygarde is comparable to Chomp, because Zygarde has a complete different role.
Zygarde gets Glare as well (in addition to Dragon Dance) to make up for its "bad" speed and can outspeed with Espeed, if it wishes to.
It needs to set up for sweep, unlike Garchomp, but has more options for being used defensively. Sure, Chomp might be bulky enough to be called "defensive" but has not much to use for it. (Toxic Staller Chomp ftw lol)
>bst
Garchomps defenses are 105/95 85
Zygardes are 108/121/95 (boosted to 132.5 after av!)
Offenses are:
Garchomp:130/80
Zygarde: 100/81 (zygarde gets dragon dance!)
Zygarde can take every unboosted hit, most boosted, and a few +3/+4 moves, with AV, And can outspeed quite a few things if instead of AV you use DD.
Oh, Also, "meh" Attack?
>jirachi
>victini
>tangrowth (i still say to this day this is underrated af as a chlorophyll sweeper)
>giratina
Below Zygarde are:
>cloyster
>nidoking
>lugia
>crobat
>heatran (iron head)
Slightly above it are:
>infernape
>aerodactyl
>not mega lucario/normal lucario
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The problem here is, Garchomp can right off sweep with its speed, Zygarde can not.
Btw, 100 atk is well, simply below the average, and any boosting moves, as long as it is not some tail growth or the like, simply does not make up for the liability.
garchomp's problem is
ice shard
lots of ice shard
and ice beam too
zygarde can live most ice beams and ice shards, garchomp cant
and im amused seeing how two of some of the most hard hitting things (shell smash skill link icicle spear and victini v-create) all come from the same attack or lower
you can go out and say that zygarde is outclassed by garchomp, but thats like saying jolteon is better than rotom-w or toxicroak is better than breloom
they have the same play styles but what makes them different is their stats
Will you please stop typing like that? It's hard to read, or tell what exactly you're talking about. Ice Shard is found on exactly 4 Pokémon: Mamoswine, Weavile, Cloyster, and Donphan. Donphan's Shard is weak, as is Cloyster's until it Shell Smashes. Weavile is barely OU relevant, and Mamoswine can't switch in on many of Chomp's moves.
Cloyster and Victini, 2 of the hardest hitting things. For reasons that are irrelevant to Zygarde. Zygarde has Outrage, 120 BP, Victini has V-Create at 180 BP while having the exact same attack stat. Victini hits MUCH harder then Zygarde. Cloyster has low initial Attack but Shell Smash helps that, as does the 125 BP (still higher then Outrage) of Icicle Spear. Zygarde is offensively outclassed by Garchomp in every way, ESpeed is too weak on Garde to be notable.
Also, on Zygarde living "most" Ice moves:
Greninja, the most prominant Ice Beamer in OU:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 686-811 (191.6 - 226.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 686-811 (163.3 - 193%) -- guaranteed OHKO
How about Mamoswine and it's Icicle Crash?
252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 520-616 (123.8 - 146.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Or Kyurem-B?
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 640-756 (152.3 - 180%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Those are all very strong Ice attacks, but you see my point: Zygarde is not going to be living "most" Ice attacks, not unless it's running full defensive- and even then it'll probably be taking a ton of damage, and it would be unable to answer back in any way.
You could bring up Assault Vest, but that's a bad item on Zygarde because it's too weak to damage without boosting and it can't boost with the vest.
Make your mind up bro.
Also can we rank Granbull somewhere. I was using it before and it was pulling its weight decently enough. I had Play Rough/Heal Bell/Roar/Thunder Wave. Thanks to Intimidate it was deceptively bulky physically and pulled its weight enough. I think C or C+ would be about right for it personally.
Dragonite should not move down, its still the thing with an automatic dual screen support that can easily turn the outcome of a match just by the fact that it can setup on almost anything and its a pain to revenge kill. Its ability to completely ignore talonflame puts it in a whole new level when compared to other setup sweepers. I dont know why people are insisting in not using outrage, its still the best stab to use. Fairies need to be removed for a sweep regardless and dragons did just fine with outrage even in the steel infested metas from last gen. Choice band sets are also very good, punching holes with outrage early, and picking things up with extremespeed late game. If anything it should move up to A+.
A direct comparison of Garchomp and Zygarde is probably unfair, but if Zygarde is to run a DD set(which is what you have proposed), than the competition is there. For a sweeper, tankiness does not really matter when your attack stats are 100/95.
And ice type is not an issue either, I have never heard any dragons having their tier dropped due to 4* ice weakness.
Btw, Earth/Dragon is never the greatest typing with out the Dragon/Earth combo on action, and your attacks stats are the thing to be looked at before your coverage.
Also, why are you keep listing its advantage over Garchomp when you don't want the two to be compared to begin with? Oh and please stop that DD set argument because that functions virtually the same as the current role of Garchomp, which Garchomp is arguably superior.
@ zygarde not being an attacker
Then how does toxicroak deal damage with a base 95 attack and is still considered an attacker?
Those 2 pokemon (mamoswine and kyurem) are a: moves mamoswine can only normally pull off on a slower pokemon (would it go for that or ice shard on a staraptor?) or b: Special KyuB. (who does that anyways)
and dont forget Multi weakness policy
So what you're telling me is 108 / 95 / 85 isn't bulky? Hello? I'm not sure what more you want in terms of bulk in an offensive Pokemon.
Assault Vest Zygarde? lol really? Colonial already posted calcs against the common Ice moves in the tier. Even with an Assault Vest you still lose to Greninja, Keldeo, Genesect, Manaphy, Mamoswine, Kyurem-B. Most of these you need to be 252 HP / 252 SpD to even stand a chance of winning 1v1 meaning it has no attack investment and hits like more of a wet noodle than it already does. You can't even Dragon Dance to boost your attack with and Assault Vest, so I don't understand how this is proving anything.
lol.
Zygarde has Extreme Speed which is weak, unstabbed and coming from base 100 Atk. If you really wanted to use a Dragon with Extreme Speed, Dragonite is the best option there. Okay, fine Garchomp doesn't have priority but that hasn't held it back in the past and its definitely not doing so now.
You contradicted yourself with that last point. So I don't even know where you stand on that.
Lastly, can you stop posting with meme arrows? This isn't 4chan, if you want to be taken seriously post with actually sentences.
Edit: Special Kyurem-B is a standard thing, btw.
Oh great here we go.
Umm where to start how about Goodra. While it doesn't have reliable recovery it has more special bulk than Deoxys D and has assault vest allowing it to run max SpA with modest and still shrug off every special hit in the game. The only reason it's not A is its lack of recovery but its power coverage and bulk warrant no less than B rank.
MegAero is still a potent attacker and can afford to run Adamant as well as having the fantastic tough claws.
Dragonite for B+ is a travesty it is incredibly versatile, has one of the best abilities in the game, has one of the best setup moves in game , the best priority move in the game, amazing coverage, and is by far the best weakness policy user in the game A at the very least and is borderline A+
Manectric is B at most it is outclassed by thundurus and is simply lackluster.
A side note about toxicroak, that thing is used as an anti-meta thing because it wraps up rain teams fairly well, as cited from its OU analysis last gen. And one obvious advantage it has over Zygarde is its infinite heal.
Special/Mixed Kyub is the best and most popular set, because Cube has exactly 3 physical moves: Dragon Claw, Outrage, and Fusion Bolt. However, he has a very nice special movepool and 120 special attack- in fact, mixed Kyub has some of the best coverage in the game with Earth Power, Fusion Bolt, and Ice Beam. Kyub NEEDS to run special to be effective, physical has terrible coverage when compared to mixed.
Toxicroak was never a good pokemon individually, it was effective in Gen V because of permarain+dry skin and the meta shaping up to be beneficial for it. And Toxicroak has 106 Attack, not 95. Still not much but could be worked around as Toxicroak has Swords Dance.
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