Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Sergeant Spooky]

In fact, looking through the A, A+, and S ranks, I can't see a single thing that Mega-Mawile can set up on except maybe Tyranitar lacking Fire Blast. Mega-Mawile might be better suited to A- rank

Yeah Mega Mawile is totally has the same threat level as Clefable.

It's fine in A rank. Lucario can hardly set-up on anything in those tiers but it's still S-rank.

Totally agree with this assessment... Somewhere in one of these pages, I read the pros and cons of M-Mawile and found it laughable that the person in question didn't include that M-Mawile takes a mega slot.

Not to mention the he listed like 5 cons... which to me... made my argument for leaving M-Mawile at A or even A- Rank. Even though Mawile takes a Mega Space the fact that it get crushed by Fire significantly hinders it as Talonflame and Heatran probably consitute nearly 90% or more of the current ladders fire Pokémon.

Can't make a mon that suspectible to these two PROLIFIC COUNTERS as A+rank. Just can't.

+2 Sucker Punch OHKOs Talonflame (Flare Blitz does not get priority) and Mawile's SubPunch set demolishes Heatran.

 

[Srn]

Band on Mamoswine is a good set, but hardly the only one. Mamo OHKO's Zygarde without band anyway though, so I'm not sure how Band is relevant to the arguments.
From the last few pages, I'd say the best place for Zygarde would be C+. It has some use but is largely outclassed, and while it's bulky it cannot escape various OHKO's, doesn't have much of a support movepool, and can do little to threaten an enemy without extensive boosting. As such it should be moved down from B to C or C+.

EDIT: Rephrasing

While I'm dissapointed how some people are defending zygarde so far, it does certainly not belongin C+. It's sub-coil set has the dangerous niche of taking advantage of Rotom-w pretty well, and is in general a fairly good set. Sub-coil specifically excels against defensive teams, where most of the times its a one-sided massacre. However, he fails to do too much to offensive teams, he's pretty fine where he is at B

DD is not the set for people to be running, Coil is. DD zygarde is certainly C+ material, but the sub-coil set pretty much bumps it back up.

In fact, looking through the A, A+, and S ranks, I can't see a single thing that Mega-Mawile can set up on except maybe Tyranitar lacking Fire Blast. Mega-Mawile might be better suited to A- rank

What about lati@s? Sadly, those're the only things I can find too....

Yeah Mega Mawile is totally has the same threat level as Clefable.

It's fine in A rank. Lucario can hardly set-up on anything in those tiers but it's still S-rank.

Cosmic Power clefable is annoying. It has two fantastic abilities, a great typing, a fantastic movepool, only held back by its sub-par stats and low speed. It is certainly A- material.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Also, Mr. Mime and regular Mawile should both be in D rank, for their significant niche in full Baton Pass teams.

I understand Mr. Mime, but what niche has Mawile, which only has 385 Base Stat totals and no ability or stats that stand out? What reason do you really need for use a non-Mega Mawile with has better defenses, way better Attack, etc Unless (continuous) Intimidate is too important for a Baton Passer I don't understand to use Mawile when his Mega is superior in every way.

 

[Rafael J. Feliciano]

Yeah Mega Mawile is totally has the same threat level as Clefable.

It's fine in A rank. Lucario can hardly set-up on anything in those tiers but it's still S-rank.



+2 Sucker Punch OHKOs Talonflame (Flare Blitz does not get priority) and Mawile's SubPunch set demolishes Heatran.

If someone allows M-Mawile to set up a +2 Sucker Punch and/or SubPunch then ANY MON is going to take a pounding.

However, I do believe I can articulate my point by highlighting the following:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Thus, why M-Mawile is an A (which is still a very high rank considering that Mawile was NU before this Gen) and M-Lucario is an S; his sweeping abilities with little support is why he's a suspect.

P.S. Why did we agree on a letter system. I feel like were talking about demon power system from Yu Yu Hakusho.

 

[sidakarya]

In fact, looking through the A, A+, and S ranks, I can't see a single thing that Mega-Mawile can set up on except maybe Tyranitar lacking Fire Blast. Mega-Mawile might be better suited to A- rank

I'm looking at the A-rank, and I can see all of Latias, Latios, Conkeldurr, and Mandibuzz as perfect set-up opportunities. Even Clefable is more inclined to switch out, because Mawile usually has more speed and is absolutely going to take a pounding from Play Rough. That's not counting choiced attacks, which are common to many in the A-rank (Latios, Azumarill, Terrakion etc.).

It's not Mega Kangaskhan, which you could set up on absolutely everything, but there is plenty of opportunity to set up or just pose a threat just by switching in (and seeing as you have more attack than CB Azumarill, sometimes you don't even have to set up)

I understand Mr. Mime, but what niche has Mawile, which only has 385 Base Stat totals and no ability or stats that stand out? What reason do you really need for use a non-Mega Mawile with has better defenses, way better Attack, etc Unless (continuous) Intimidate is too important for a Baton Passer I don't understand to use Mawile when his Mega is superior in every way.

It has Intimidate for Baton Pass chains and is immune to Dragon Tail. I don't really like it, but it has that one niche.

 

[alexwolf]

I understand Mr. Mime, but what niche has Mawile, which only has 385 Base Stat totals and no ability or stats that stand out? What reason do you really need for use a non-Mega Mawile with has better defenses, way better Attack, etc Unless (continuous) Intimidate is too important for a Baton Passer I don't understand to use Mawile when his Mega is superior in every way.

Taunt + Fairy typing + Intimidate is regular Mawile's niche on Baton Pass teams over the other commonly used Steel-type, Scizor. Taunt is great to prevent phazing, Taunt, Perish Song, boosting, and Encore, Fairy-typing allows it to block Dragon-Tail and deal much better against Dark-types, and Intimidate offers significant team support. Also, regular Mawile > Mega Mawile on Baton Pass teams because you need Leftovers recovery and Intimdiate, and all that extra Atk goes to waste anyway. Here is the set btw:

Mawile @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Nature: Bold
- Iron Defense
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Baton Pass

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Can we stop with unanimous statements like this about past arguments that aren't even remotely true? And that goes double for people who keep feeling the need to be the ones to provide some kind of "updated" list of the past 10 pages or whatever (which is usually chock full of complete inaccuracies)

Mega Mawile is slow and weak to the two most common attacks of the meta. It's suspectible to burns (moreso than others due to its super low speed), uses the mega slot, has an annoying 90% accuracy for a relatively weak base power move, and it has unreliable un-STAB priority. Look at how good the stuff in A+ is and then look at Mega-Mawile. It's fine where it is at A rank.

Yeah, stop making generalized statements that aren't true. Mega Mawile is good but not one of the best Pokemon in OU, as are the Pokemon in S and A+ rank. It has several downsides, such as being too fucking slow and weak to two of the most common attacking types (Fire and Ground). Also, while it's definitely strong, it's in no way unwallable or as immediately threatening as monsters such as Mega Char Y and Mega Lucario. It has some great popular checks, such as Landorus-T, Mega Venusaur, BU Talonflame, and Heatran, all of which are very popular Pokemon. Finally, it has the opportunity cost of occupying your Mega Slot, which is not a small thing when you have competition with beasts such as Mega Char Y, X, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Lucario. Mega Mawile is fine in A rank.

Also, Mr. Mime and regular Mawile should both be in D rank, for their significant niche in full Baton Pass teams.

Sorry about that, I could swear that happened but now I can't find it. I have no problem with it staying A rank otherwise.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

In fact, looking through the A, A+, and S ranks, I can't see a single thing that Mega-Mawile can set up on except maybe Tyranitar lacking Fire Blast. Mega-Mawile might be better suited to A- rank

Mega-Mawile doesn't really need to set up to do real damage. I mean, an effective base 259 Attack? Feeling the need to boost that is just a bit overkill. Having Swords Dance is nice, but really an all-out-attacker Mega-Mawile can be just as effective; so I don't think having trouble getting SD boosts is a good reason to justify a drop.

 

[TheDuckChris]

I'd like to start a discussion on Ninetails.
While XY gave us a great new sun setter in Mega Charizard Y, Ninetails is still the easiest way to bring sun support for your team if it needs it. The Sleep Talk set catches people off guard and spreads burns nicely, especially against Aegislash, and can absorb a sleep powder from mega venusaur if need be. Granted, its problems from last gen are still present, albeit less problematic in some ways.
Stealth rocks are still a thing, and sun suffers from them more than most team styles. Mega Charizard shares this hatred of pebbles, and stacking fire types on a team is never easy. Venusaur also gained a new role this gen, while its growth set lost a bit due to the weather nerf and the introduction of Flying type priority.

One thing Ninetails gained in the gen switch is the decrease in popularity of other weathers. Ninetails no longer needs dugtrio to take out other weather starters, as weather in general is less common. Ninetails also gained some nice partners to support, such as CB Entei, which hits like a monster in the sun with sacred fire while retaining good bulk. Charizard is a great partner to ninetails, either as supplementary sun support and wallbreaking, or as a fearsome sweeper with a powerful flare blitz. The fact that both mega charizards benefit from sun makes Zard X a great lure for special walls.

Overall Ninetails is a little less viable then it was last gen, but still potent. I'd say it deserves a solid B rank. Thoughts?

 

[Schpoonman]

There's a discrepancy in the A definition that needs addressing. The way it's worded right now is ambiguous to the point where you could interpret them as inconsistent, period. I think it needs to be reworded to say that they can be inconsistent if left to themselves, and then make the qualification that they DO get the job done the majority of the time with proper support. Like Dragonite and Talonflame, they will be inconsistent as long as they are trying to operate without any sort of hazard control. They might do work, they might not. Now, WITH hazard control they are almost guaranteed to be absolute terrors in battle. Differentiate that with Genesect who almost doesn't care if hazards are up or not on either side of the field, he's GOING to ruin someone's day frequently.

 

[Ruffles]

You basically said it all in the end: why would I ever want to use Cofagrigus over Trevenant or Sableye?
I'm sure there's a reason, but you need to convince me.

Both. We rate a pokemon based on all its viable sets. (LO is the best one though).

Ultimate physical counter/check, Mummy, WoW, Trapping with Infestation, Hex damage. Trevenant is good when using Specially defensive set + WoW, Sableye is also nice, but Cofagrigus can trap, and when you trap a burned physical sweeper, especially with his ability lost, that's a free kill. Cofagrigus can almost check every physical sweeper except Tyranitar.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I'd like to start a discussion on Ninetails.
While XY gave us a great new sun setter in Mega Charizard Y, Ninetails is still the easiest way to bring sun support for your team if it needs it. The Sleep Talk set catches people off guard and spreads burns nicely, especially against Aegislash, and can absorb a sleep powder from mega venusaur if need be. Granted, its problems from last gen are still present, albeit less problematic in some ways.
Stealth rocks are still a thing, and sun suffers from them more than most team styles. Mega Charizard shares this hatred of pebbles, and stacking fire types on a team is never easy. Venusaur also gained a new role this gen, while its growth set lost a bit due to the weather nerf and the introduction of Flying type priority.

One thing Ninetails gained in the gen switch is the decrease in popularity of other weathers. Ninetails no longer needs dugtrio to take out other weather starters, as weather in general is less common. Ninetails also gained some nice partners to support, such as CB Entei, which hits like a monster in the sun with sacred fire while retaining good bulk. Charizard is a great partner to ninetails, either as supplementary sun support and wallbreaking, or as a fearsome sweeper with a powerful flare blitz. The fact that both mega charizards benefit from sun makes Zard X a great lure for special walls.

Overall Ninetails is a little less viable then it was last gen, but still potent. I'd say it deserves a solid B rank. Thoughts?

I've used Sun rather extensively since XY first came out and tbh I don't see any reason to run Ninetales, even on Sun. Mega Charizard-Y is the only Drought pokemon you should ever be using aside from Groudon. You can't argue that Ninetales has anything whatsoever over MegaZard-Y, also it doesn't hit particularly hard even with the Sun boost. It has to use Heat Rock just to be of use, and even then it's often dead weight outside of that. SR weakness is impractical when there's not much positive standing against it, especially when MegaZard-Y exists. One of the most fearsome wallbreakers of OU, and it even has reliable recovery in Roost. Trust me, if you need extra Sun-turns use something like Whimsicott instead, who is extremely reliable thanks to Prankster and provides some good synergy with MegaZard-Y who doesnt't perform well against Dragons. It also provides Encore + U-turn support, or even Memento to give Venusaur the maximum amount of Sun turns to sweep and a free setup turn. Much more effective than a mediocre pokemon like Ninetales. Not only is Ninetales completely eclipsed by MegaZard-Y, it's just not a good pokemon in the current metagame. Lastly, Sun isn't even all that great this generation. Venusaur sweeps are much more difficult to achieve with new threats like Talonflame, Goodra, Aegislash as well as Tyranitar and Heatran still being popular as usual.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

There's a discrepancy in the A definition that needs addressing. The way it's worded right now is ambiguous to the point where you could interpret them as inconsistent, period. I think it needs to be reworded to say that they can be inconsistent if left to themselves, and then make the qualification that they DO get the job done the majority of the time with proper support. Like Dragonite and Talonflame, they will be inconsistent as long as they are trying to operate without any sort of hazard control. They might do work, they might not. Now, WITH hazard control they are almost guaranteed to be absolute terrors in battle. Differentiate that with Genesect who almost doesn't care if hazards are up or not on either side of the field, he's GOING to ruin someone's day frequently.

I think that hazard control comes under the "requires some support" section. Dragonite and Talonflame require stealth rock removal but are otherwise amazing, hence A rank. Genesect does not require support at all, which is why he's not A but S.

Ultimate physical counter/check, Mummy, WoW, Trapping with Infestation, Hex damage. Trevenant is good when using Specially defensive set + WoW, Sableye is also nice, but Cofagrigus can trap, and when you trap a burned physical sweeper, especially with his ability lost, that's a free kill. Cofagrigus can almost check every physical sweeper except Tyranitar.

I'm doubting that an infestation set would be the most effective way to use Cofagrigus - if you switch it in on something it walls, it will just switch out instead of staying in to throw around pointless attacks. If anything does stay in while you use infestation, then it probably has a way to hit Cofagrigus very hard. Hex is not a good move on anything ever, so that's not a good argument. And both Trevenant and Sableye use WoW, Sableye with priority.

 

[alexwolf]

I've used Sun rather extensively since XY first came out and tbh I don't see any reason to run Ninetales, even on Sun. Mega Charizard-Y is the only Drought pokemon you should ever be using aside from Groudon. You can't argue that Ninetales has anything whatsoever over MegaZard-Y, also it doesn't hit particularly hard even with the Sun boost. It has to use Heat Rock just to be of use, and even then it's often dead weight outside of that. SR weakness is impractical when there's not much positive standing against it, especially when MegaZard-Y exists. One of the most fearsome wallbreakers of OU, and it even has reliable recovery in Roost. Trust me, if you need extra Sun-turns use something like Whimsicott instead, who is extremely reliable thanks to Prankster and provides some good synergy with MegaZard-Y who doesnt't perform well against Dragons. It also provides Encore + U-turn support, or even Memento to give Venusaur the maximum amount of Sun turns to sweep and a free setup turn. Much more effective than a mediocre pokemon like Ninetales. Not only is Ninetales completely eclipsed by MegaZard-Y, it's just not a good pokemon in the current metagame. Lastly, Sun isn't even all that great this generation. Venusaur sweeps are much more difficult to achieve with new threats like Talonflame, Goodra, Aegislash as well as Tyranitar and Heatran still being popular as usual.

This is 100% wrong. You can't make a real sun abusing team without Heat Rock Ninetales or Heat Rock + Sunny Day users. Sun offense can't work with just Mega Charizard Y as your sun source while it can work with just Heat Rock Ninetales as your sun source. You can have one or two Pokemon in your team that indirectly benefit from the sun that Mega Charizard Y brings, but if you want to use Chlorophyll Pokemon and Scarf Fire-types, such as Darmanitan and Victini, you need Ninetales, otherwise you won't manage to bring in those Pokemon fast enough to take advantage of the sun.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

The problem with ninetales is that all it can do is setup the sun then sack itself later to keep the sun up. While the fact that it doesnt need to spend a turn to set it up is a nice thing it has over sunny day users, ninetales literally does nothing else. Something like uxie, deoxys-s, klefki or whimsicott could do things like setup stealth rock, use memento/u-turn to give a teammate a free turm, setup dual screens, use priority taunt and encore to disrupt the opponent's team etc. There are so many possibilities for these mons that ninetales just feels out of place. At least politoed has a decent typing and access to perish song/encore and as such is a justifiable choice for rain teams but it is really hard to justify ninetales for sun.

 

[epicdrill]

Suicune is not yet ranked, and I would be interested in seeing discussion on it. I do not think I have enough skill with OU to come up with an intelligent ranking, so I'm not going to even try. I will, however, provide some damage calcs for thought that show a picture of both it's bulk and it's power, both before and after boosts:
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 255-300 (63.1 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Suicune is not OHKOed by the strongest unboosted hit, quite literally, in the entire game, bar Specs Deo-A Psycho Boost (Adamant is just to make this calc more impressive). As for one of the strongest SE unboosted hits allowed in OU, here it is:
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That is a STAB SE LO-boosted hit from a positive natured base 145 SpA. And it is barely an OHKO.
Now let's try the same calc after just one CM:
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 268-320 (66.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You survive now. Keep in mind that this is one of the strongest unboosted SE attacks allowed in OU and a pokemon that you should never try to set up or stay in on. Now let's try against the two most common electric attacks in OU.
+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 248-292 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 140-168 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So, Rotom-W's Volt Switch isn't a risk, as one can just Rest off the damage easily. Also, you can set up on Genesect, assuming it is not locked into Thunderbolt with a +1 SpA from Download.
These calcs show Suicune's impressive bulk and amazing ability to set up on almost anything, as they are mostly strong SE hits against it's lower unboosted Special Defense on the CroCune set. Now let's look at it's attack power, which is considerably less impressive.
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (type has been changed to be neutral to Water): 105-124 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (type has been changed to be neutral to Water): 262-309 (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+4 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (type has been changed to be neutral to Water): 313-370 (109.4 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It needs to be at +4 to OHKO something with 72/71 base Special bulk with a neutral hit. Obviously, there is no way this thing is getting past dedicated special walls or things that resist Water. Here's some calcs against something frail that is weak to water (76/71)
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 210-248 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 314-372 (107.1 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yes. It needs a boost to OHKO Infernape.
So, overall, while Suicune has impressive bulk and is extremely able to set up repeatedly, it's power is, as a whole, very unimpressive. What ranking does it deserve? Like I said, I don't think I have enough skill at OU to come up with a good rating, so I'll leave that up to you.

 

[Srn]

Suicune is not yet ranked, and I would be interested in seeing discussion on it. I do not think I have enough skill with OU to come up with an intelligent ranking, so I'm not going to even try. I will, however, provide some damage calcs for thought that show a picture of both it's bulk and it's power, both before and after boosts:
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 255-300 (63.1 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Suicune is not OHKOed by the strongest unboosted hit, quite literally, in the entire game, bar Specs Deo-A Psycho Boost (Adamant is just to make this calc more impressive). As for one of the strongest SE unboosted hits allowed in OU, here it is:
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That is a STAB SE LO-boosted hit from a positive natured base 145 SpA. And it is barely an OHKO.
Now let's try the same calc after just one CM:
252+ SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 268-320 (66.3 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You survive now. Keep in mind that this is one of the strongest unboosted SE attacks allowed in OU and a pokemon that you should never try to set up or stay in on. Now let's try against the two most common electric attacks in OU.
+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 248-292 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 140-168 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
So, Rotom-W's Volt Switch isn't a risk, as one can just Rest off the damage easily. Also, you can set up on Genesect, assuming it is not locked into Thunderbolt with a +1 SpA from Download.
These calcs show Suicune's impressive bulk and amazing ability to set up on almost anything, as they are mostly strong SE hits against it's lower unboosted Special Defense on the CroCune set. Now let's look at it's attack power, which is considerably less impressive.
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (type has been changed to be neutral to Water): 105-124 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (type has been changed to be neutral to Water): 262-309 (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+4 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja (type has been changed to be neutral to Water): 313-370 (109.4 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It needs to be at +4 to OHKO something with 72/71 base Special bulk with a neutral hit. Obviously, there is no way this thing is getting past dedicated special walls or things that resist Water. Here's some calcs against something frail that is weak to water (76/71)
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 210-248 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 314-372 (107.1 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yes. It needs a boost to OHKO Infernape.
So, overall, while Suicune has impressive bulk and is extremely able to set up repeatedly, it's power is, as a whole, very unimpressive. What ranking does it deserve? Like I said, I don't think I have enough skill at OU to come up with a good rating, so I'll leave that up to you.

While it's all nice and dandy that suicune can take these hits, now what? Let's assume that you're running Crocune, because that is arguably what suicune does best. So you've taken these big hits and now you're crippled because you're not fast enough to get a rest off or keep calm minding or throw out a scald. It's worth noting that even at +1 scald is still pathetically weak, only at +3 will it really start to sting. The thing is, with crocune, is that whenever something is faster and can 2hko it and take a scald, it loses. And you literally just listed out all the pokemon it loses to. So....

 

[DiscoDucky]

Just from a quick look at the list, some stuff really needs to be moved around:

Moved down:

Goodra C+ Rank
Mega-Aerodactyl C Rank
Dragonite B+ Rank
Tentacruel C Rank
Infernape C+ Rank
Celebi C+ Rank
Liepard D Rank, preferably E Rank for "don't ever use"

Moved up:
Galvantula B+ or A- Rank
Mega-Medicham A- Rank
Mega-Manectric A- Rank

Because reading this circular argument about Zygarde is just ridiculous. Can we just put it under "Conclusion reached"?

Anyway, I really think you're undermining Goodra's qualities. Don't get me wrong, Goodra is still not as Latias in terms of team utility, but he does have a few things that he boasts over Latias. Unlike Latias, Goodra has a very wide range of coverage moves that Latias doesn't have access to, most notably the Flamethrower/Fire Blast lines, and with Base 110 Sp. Att., it can force a couple of switches. I do agree that Latias does resist Fighting and Ground, it does also have pretty bad weaknesses to Dark, Ghost, and Bug-type moves, all of which are very relevant offensive typings in OU right now; thus it is forced out pretty hard by the likes of Aegislash and other notable Special attackers. Goodra has the added benefit of not only taking very little from Special moves (especially with AssVest), but its sheer coverage forces those said Special Attackers out. Every single one of them are at most 2HKOed by some form of coverage Goodra packs, and the fact that Goodra has that big of an offensive movepool makes staying in with any Special Attacker a gamble, whereas Latias has limited coverage with its current popular set. I most definitely acknowledge the flaws that Goodra has, but it is definitely not struggling that hard to compete with Latias, so he's definitely B/B- material.

I would actually vouch to move MAerodactyl down to C-. To be completely honest, MAerodactyl is really just wasted potential. Outside of Tough Claws boosting Ice Fang, Aerial Ace, or Crunch, MAerodactyl's role as a Revenge Killer or Fast attacker is completely usurped by Pokemon like Deo-S. Furthermore, MAerodactyl is weak or neutral to a majority of relevant OU priority moves (Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, Sucker Punch, Mach Punch, Vaccuum Wave, Aqua Jet, Shadow Sneak), and considering how chock-full of priority OU has become, the environment is even more hostile to MAerodactyl.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

While it's all nice and dandy that suicune can take these hits, now what? Let's assume that you're running Crocune, because that is arguably what suicune does best. So you've taken these big hits and now you're crippled because you're not fast enough to get a rest off or keep calm minding or throw out a scald. It's worth noting that even at +1 scald is still pathetically weak, only at +3 will it really start to sting. The thing is, with crocune, is that whenever something is faster and can 2hko it and take a scald, it loses. And you literally just listed out all the pokemon it loses to. So....

Crocune is a monster, once it gets at least one calm mind boost its a nightmare to stop, dont underestimate it. It absolutely needs to be ranked in this list now that the sleep mechanics have returned to pre-BW. Most of its counters have fallen in usage like jellicent, psong politoed/celebi and gastrodon meaning most teams lack a reliable way to beat it, often forcing them to lose and/or severly cripple at least two pokemon.

 

[Exclaimer]

I recently played against a Crocune, and I lost because of it:

+4 252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 285-336 (70.5 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

^What happened

+6 252 Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 381-448 (94.3 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

^The best situation I could have been in

You have to run Adamant/3 swords dances to guarantee a kill from Absol. That's absolutely insane considering how much firepower Absol can bring. Also, considering how frail Absol is, a Suicune can come in and win against it almost always, as long as it isn't already set-up and you didn't switch into something nasty.

 

[Srn]

Crocune is a monster, once it gets at least one calm mind boost its a nightmare to stop, dont underestimate it. It absolutely needs to be ranked in this list now that the sleep mechanics have returned to pre-BW. Most of its counters have fallen in usage like jellicent, psong politoed/celebi and gastrodon meaning most teams lack a reliable way to beat it, often forcing them to lose and/or severly cripple at least two pokemon.

I most certainly don't underestimate it, it is definitely a threat to face if you don't have the raw firepower to bring it down early on. The calcs that were mentioned were just irrelevant because suicune couldn't set up on them anyway.

 

[doughboy]

Giometry eaglehawk --- Concerning Goodra's and Mega-Aero's ranking

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First giometry, consider that Adamant Mega Aerodactyl is only slightly stronger than Life Orb Aerodactyl when using its primary STAB: Stone Edge. Also consider the "only-average" increase in power when using supereffective moves with the Hone Claws boost against you counters. I chose Chansey and Skarmory for the ease of demonstrating calcs:

252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 246-289 (34.9 - 41%)
252 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 242-286 (34.3 - 40.6%)

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 120-142 (35.9 - 42.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 105-125 (31.4 - 37.4%)

That slight increase in power on your Aerodactyl is totally not worth using your Mega-slot. The only other thing you gain is a guaranteed speed win vs opposing base 130's, which is a really small advantage because they are nearly absent from the metagame. If you used Jolly, you are now weaker and get good speed. But is that role better served with Deoxys-S? It absolutely is because it is stronger, has better coverage to revenge kill a wider array of Pokemon, doesn't have an SR weakness, and it doesn't take your mega-slot that could be used for something really fearsome like Mega-Lucario. Echoing eaglehawk's sentiments about Mega-Aerodactyl being wasted potential.

Now on Goodra. Not having reliable recovery's has a significant impact on its raw bulk with Assault Vest and its lack of speed really hurts it sometimes vs offensive teams. Let's say Goodra is put into a typical situation: checking Rotom-W with SR in play. If Rotom-W burns you, you are now taking 25% damage every time you come in to check a threat (same with Latias) but with no opportunity to get that health back. I can't deny Goodra can check a lot of special threats better than Latias, but it can not do it throughout a long match, leaving very little room for error in wasting Goodra's health. Latias let's you make a few mistakes here and there because of its recovery, so it is a safer option going into most battles.

Now if Rotom-W Volt Switches, it is an entirely different situation with Goodra and Latias. Rotom-W's Volt Switch holds a lot more momentum against Goodra. Since the majority of offensive threats outspeed Goodra, you will find that Goodra will be forced out giving an opponent a free turn. With Latias' high speed, the opponent has to be a lot more careful of what to send out because not many offensive threats can stomach Life Orb Draco Meteor's or one of its coverage moves. Overall, Latias has an expanded list of threats it can check because it can immediately force out pokemon with high-powered Draco Meteors (ex. Charizard X, Terrakion, Garchomp, physical Landorus, etc). Goodra can not do the same.

Although I don't really mind if it is sent to B-. I'm not going to split hairs between +1 or -1 rankings.

TooMuchSugar Rafael J. Feliciano--- Concerning Infernape's ranking

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Infernape doesn't have the raw power compared to a lot of the other OU wallbreakers / mixed attackers out there. Without that raw power, it struggles to get through pokemon that are common on defensive teams, the types of teams that Infernape is thrown on to your team to take down. These include Mega-Venasaur, Clefable, Slowbro, and Latias. It faces competition in the form of Keldeo in a "mixed" fighting type that can take down Aegislash. In exchange for the ability to get around certain Grass types, Keldeo gets a much better neutral / cleaning STAB in water. I've tried Infernape out seeing as how rain went away, and I found while it has great coverage, it can get robbed of 2HKO's if it doesn't predict correctly. A poke with more raw power behind it (e.g. keldeo) can still find itself getting 2HKO's even when a Pokemon switches in on a resisted hit.

Honestly either B- or C+.

SmashBrosBrawl --- Concerning Dragonite's ranking

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I don't disagree with you about Extreme Speed's awesomeness on Dragonite. I put that as Dragonite's redeeming quality in my post. But since it runs Extremespeed, Dragonite's coverage is much more limited vs defensive threats, moreso than any other Pokemon in A-rank. Outrage is still good too, Fairy-types aren't so prominently used in the tier that it will put Dragonite's sweep to a deadend against the vast majority of teams. The key is that it locks you in and then confuses you. Offensive steel-type != just Scizor, but three of the S-ranked offensive threats in the metagame. Most offensive teams can find a little wiggle room to break up your sweep or to counter sweep themselves.

It might now make much sense, but to me at least, Dragonite is one of the sweepers that gives you the most "breathing room" before you face it. It isn't particularly fast, it doesn't run Life Orb / plates to boost its immediate power, nor does it retain the best momentum in its sweep by locking itself into Outrage. That gives you time to respond and time to regain some ground after the damage has been done. For this reason, I liked using Choice Band a lot more than DD than last gen and this gen. No setup for power = less time for opponent to respond. Also forcing the keep my multiscale or break it then die was a tough trade to put the opponent in too. Anyway, given that that offensive teams now have a wider selection of offensive steel-types and can even use fairy-types, I think it isn't as an immediatly threatening than other Pokemon in a A-Rank. Honestly, it is the poke I am least concerned about being moved.

edit: also i find lando-t's popularity extremely annoying to it

edit: alexwolf alright you got me on the power but I would still say it is a pretty bad use of a mega slot for offensive teams. b-

 

[alexwolf]

Doughboy, you are really downplaying the Tough Claws boost on Mega Aero, which makes Aqua Tail, Ice Fang, Fire Fang, and Aerial Ace strong enough to OHKO a lot of offensive Pokemon and 2HKO most defensive Pokemon. Just some examples of OHKO/2HKOes that regular Aerodactly can't get:

• 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 252-298 (83.4 - 98.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 228-270 (75.4 - 89.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 314-372 (97.2 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 316-372 (97.8 - 115.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 186-220 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
• 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 122-144 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- some chance to 2HKO after two SR rounds

And all those are either major offensive or defensive threats. And on top of that, Mega Aero doesn't take LO recoil and has better bulk, allowing it to act as a check to dangerous offensive Pokemon, such as Talonflame, which regular Aerodactyl is much less effective at doing. Finally, Mega Aero doesn't even need to always use its Rock STAB, as Tough Claws Aqua Tail is actually stronger than STAB Rock Slide and has great neutral coverage, while Ice Fang, Fire Fang, and Aerial Ace are enough to OHKO most offensive Pokemon. So yeah, Mega Aero is a huge improvement to Aerodactly and absolutely deserves to be in B rank. B- rank is the worse it should be, only because of competition with other MEvos.

 

[Hot N Cold]

Rain was actually one of the weathers hit least by the rain nerf, since most rain abusers use it passively anyway - for example, Keldeo is going to be a great pokemon either way but would love the practically free extra 50% power. Drizzle + Swift Swim is pretty good, just as Rain Dance teams were in gen 4 but with a way better rain setter. Manaphy is good too, although it should run rain dance itself in addition if it wants to abuse rest + hydration. Basically, rain teams have a lot of good options and don't fall apart if Politoed dies, but it's hands down the best rain setter there is.

A lot of options can handle Rain Dance teams, rain offensive teams with a Specs Kingdra or something like this, you cant abuse too about swift swimmers mons because otherwise you'll get some several weakness. Running another simple weather mon destroy this style, not comment a lot of checks or mons which does decent against Rain Teams like Talonflame, CB genesect, Keldeo, Manaphy, Mega-Venusaur, Rotom-W, Aegislash etc

Rain Dance teams are meh in OU gen 4, top players rarely uses this playstyle, only they uses a Rain Dance team when are pretty sure that this matchup will be good against their opponents.

Just saying Rain Teams are very inconsistent and not reliable without perma Drizzle.

/late

 

[Punchshroom]

Good god, I didn't think I'd have to defend Zygarde after most of us agreed it is an underrated threat. Let me just start with this: sorry Uore , but Assault Vest Zygarde is kind of a dud idea; Zygarde does not have the raw (unboosted) power to do much with its boosted bulk, I mean it can take an Ice Beam so what....oh wait the most common Ice Beamer in the tier is Life Orb Protean Greninja which OHKOes 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Zygarde anyway (252 HP / 0 SpD takes more), and if you're telling me you're running more special bulk than that I can officially consider AV Zygarde as both a lackluster offensive threat and poor defensive response to almost anything due to its lack of recovery (it can't even Glare shit).

Edit: I forgot about Genesect and Deoxys-S, both of which still 2HKO you with Ice Beam. How is Assault Vest Zygarde working for you again?

To put it nicely, Zygarde is simply outclassed to the other Dragon-types out there.

Let's see Zygarde for what it is: it is a Ground / Dragon. Are there any other Ground / Dragons? Yes, there is Garchomp and Flygon, but who uses Flygon (<-now this is outclassed)? Garchomp has better offensive stats (well suited for Choice items), has Swords Dance and even a Mega Form, so that's several pluses for the land shark. But wait, Zygarde has Dragon Dance and Coil! We never had a Ground-type that could Dragon Dance before, so that opens new doors for sweeping potential! Nor did we have a Dragon-type that knows Coil, aka a Bulk Up that just happens to make its Stone Edge / Dragon Tail perfectly accurate, which again isn't something any other Dragon can replicate. And it even has Glare + good bulk, which pretty much means parashuffler Dragonite just got overshadowed since Glare > Thunder Wave. Not 1, but 3 niches other Dragons (or Pokemon in general) cannot occupy, yet you say it is outclassed? Even if it's not the cream of the crop, Zygarde is still a very viable Dragon.

You should never use extremespeed on zygarde. A +2 adamant nature fails to even secure an OHKO on frail shit like greninja; that's just pathetic.

For the record, yes Dragonite is still the go to Dragon if you want an Extreme Speeding Dragon. However, it's not like it's completely useless on Zygarde, as it is still a useful move to have for priority, or against weakened opponents if Zygarde is unboosted.

DD is not the set for people to be running, Coil is. DD zygarde is certainly C+ material, but the sub-coil set pretty much bumps it back up.

I'm gonna reply to this with my "unquothed" quote.

Zygarde still has its advantages over both Dragonite and XZard, mainly its SR resistance and Ground STAB (plus Extreme Speed). Zygarde is a very viable option for teams who want a Dragon Dancer but aren't bothered to get rid of SR. For the record, DD Zygarde is not very weak at all: it may be weaker in comparison to Nite, but alternate STAB in Earthquake means it doesn't have to spam Outrage against any remotely bulky opponent it sees, and unlike XZard (if not running Roost) it has little to fear from priority. That, and the SubCoil set is the absolute tits to play against defensive teams since damn near nothing short of an Ice / Fairy move can break the Sub.

Zygarde definitely has its niches to fill: Dragon Dance Zygarde arguably needs less maintenance than Dragonite to pose a threat to offensive teams, Coil sets can setup on weaker physical attackers, and SubCoil sets can make most defensive teams cry. And of course Glare sets can dick around with paralysis on everything bar Electrics and shuffle in unparalyzed foes with Dragon Tail. This is actually pretty damn versatile for a supposed 'outclassed' Dragon, whose only real flaw compared to its brethren is that it needs to boost to be an offensive threat, but the many ways it can do so is not to be underestimated. I still prefer to see it in B+ for that matter.