Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[LoDart210]

I might be wrong here so take this with caution, but the way I understand the rankings C is the Rank for things that are outclassed by other things in the ranks above. To get B rank Thundorus-T would need a niche to differentiate itself.

B ranks can be outclassed by a ranks as well. (Hence why I think it is outclassed by incarnate)


Also therian can function as wall breaker better than incarnate.

 

[Seiterman]

Aaaaaaa Thundurus T Tangrowth whyyyyy

Those 10 points in Speed make all of the difference, as does his loss of Prankster, so Incarnate being placed higher makes sense. I will, however, agree that Thundy-T should be placed higher than C-Rank, though I don't know how much higher. Its Agility set (and arguably its Double Boosting set,) is better than Incarnate's, so I don't really think its outclassed in that role. The support needed to get that sweep going is important, though. Thundy-T's got pretty bad defenses, which is where that extra 10 points in Speed would be appreciated. There are some important threats between 101 and 111 base Speed that can really hurt Thundy-T, including Garchomp, Espeon, Gengar, Lati@s, Infernape, Keldeo and Terrakion. Add in a susceptibility to SR, priority and potential Life Orb recoil and you have yourself one frail sweeper.

I'd like to talk about Tangrowth too, but I'm not as well versed with that guy. Also I'm way too hungry right now to keep typing. So yeah.

 

[LoDart210]

Those 10 points in Speed make all of the difference, as does his loss of Prankster, so Incarnate being placed higher makes sense. I will, however, agree that Thundy-T should be placed higher than C-Rank, though I don't know how much higher. Its Agility set (and arguably its Double Boosting set,) is better than Incarnate's, so I don't really think its outclassed in that role. The support needed to get that sweep going is important, though. Thundy-T's got pretty bad defenses, which is where that extra 10 points in Speed would be appreciated. There are some important threats between 101 and 111 base Speed that can really hurt Thundy-T, including Garchomp, Espeon, Gengar, Lati@s, Infernape, Keldeo and Terrakion. Add in a susceptibility to SR, priority and potential Life Orb recoil and you have yourself one frail sweeper.

I'd like to talk about Tangrowth too, but I'm not as well versed with that guy. Also I'm way too hungry right now to keep typing. So yeah.

You could have just tagged me.

Regardless I agree with you, don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware incarnate is waaaaay better. I just find it hilarious that thundurus t is considered not as good a sweeper as base lucario....

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

crobat is way too good for c-. 130 speed+inflitrator+great support moves such as taunt, haze, defog, perfect accuracy toxic, super fang is insanely good. being able to not be set up bait with usable 90 attack+brave bird is good aswell. c+

 

[ColtCababa]

Chansey for A- rank. Chansey has so much hp and Sp.def that Special Attacks just barely tickle it, and with the eviolite item, it can also take unboosted physical attacks. It has so many options for support moves like wish and aromatherapy. It can also dish out an okay amount of damage with seismic toss.

Chansey does, however, face great competition from Blissey, who benefits from Leftovers recovery, and thus isn't as hindered from passive damage, as well as special tanks like Tyranitar and Goodra. As a Wish passer, Sylveon also competes with it, having an arguably better defensive typing and much better offensive presence. Eviolite users have also fallen out of grace somewhat with the buff to Knock Off, and Chansey could potentially become setup bait for dangerous threats. I personally think it's B.

 

[Colonial]

now your bringing prediction into this. Say my togekiss is out on your donphan. He's going to spin unless he PREDICTS

You missed my point. I'm saying that Chendelure cannot be called a good spinblocker unless he can actually switch in safely on an enemy. It's not prediction in this case, it's probability. When discussing the ability of a pokemon, we are supposed to discuss it in the worst case scenario- that is, if the opponent predicts correctly. Chandelure is OHKO'd by every offensive spinner in OU (and UU come to think of it), and as such is not a good spinblocker.

 

[Salemance]

Chansey does, however, face great competition from Blissey, who benefits from Leftovers recovery, and thus isn't as hindered from passive damage, as well as special tanks like Tyranitar and Goodra. As a Wish passer, Sylveon also competes with it, having an arguably better defensive typing and much better offensive presence. Eviolite users have also fallen out of grace somewhat with the buff to Knock Off, and Chansey could potentially become setup bait for dangerous threats. I personally think it's B.

*twitches slightly*
I would advise not bringing Blissey v. Chansey up in this thread. Been done to death and was... Getting no where fast. A horrible stalemate really.

Rest of the post is good though. Although I do think it deserves A- (Along with Hippowdon!) due to just being able to physical hits better than the others and having the option to.

crobat is way too good for c-. 130 speed+inflitrator+great support moves such as taunt, haze, defog, perfect accuracy toxic, super fang is insanely good. being able to not be set up bait with usable 90 attack+brave bird is good aswell. c+

I think even higher really as he is able to do so damn much (posted his assets once already, might again) and C+ or B- really imo.

 

[alexwolf]

They're slashed, its the same thing.

For now, we are treating MEvos and regular formes as separate Pokemon. Although some MEvos are much more similar to their regular forme, such as Tyranitar and Scizor, we are treating all the MEvos in the same way to keep things clear, otherwise people could get confused why some MEvos are treated as separate Pokemon and some aren't. After all, the goal of this thread is to show to people how good each Pokemon is in the metagame and for the community to have a good list of reference based on viability. Seeing as MEvos have a significant opportunity cost in that you are allowed to use only one in each team, it is fair to rank them separately from their base formes so that the readers can know the potential of each individual MEvo, so that they know if they are worth spending the Mega Slot.

For example, if we treat Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar as the same Pokemon, some readers won't be able to tell if Tyranitar's MEvo is worth of this ranking, or the sum of Tyranitar's sets is worth of this ranking, and thus will be unable to understand Mega Tyranitar's net competitive worth in the OU metagame.

So, for now, argue whether you think that Mega Tyranitar and Tyranitar separately should be A+ rank. Of course the fact that you can't know immediately if the Tyranitar you see on team preview is Mega or not is a pro that adds to Mega Tyranitar's versatility, so it can be used as an argument in favor of Mega Tyranitar.

Imo, Mega Tyranitar should be A+ and regular Tyranitar A.

 

[Colonial]

*twitches slightly*
I would advise not bringing Blissey v. Chansey up in this thread. Been done to death and was... Getting no where fast. A horrible stalemate really.

Heh, just like a real match between Chansey and Blissey would be.

I'm not sure about Crobat. It's good; really fast, good typing, able to shift between defogger and great revenge killer. But it has competition from Lati@s as a defogger, Talonflame as a revenge killer, and Thundurus or Deoxys as an anti-lead with Taunt. He can do all that at once though and has Infiltrator for stuff behind subs, but his lack of defensive capability may hold him back. Hmm... not sure.

 

[DestinyGallade]

You missed my point. I'm saying that Chendelure cannot be called a good spinblocker unless he can actually switch in safely on an enemy. It's not prediction in this case, it's probability. When discussing the ability of a pokemon, we are supposed to discuss it in the worst case scenario- that is, if the opponent predicts correctly. Chandelure is OHKO'd by every offensive spinner in OU (and UU come to think of it), and as such is not a good spinblocker.

Not all of them. But my point is he can switch into every defensive spinner except donphan if it EQs which it probably won't. Also, i believe both the pink hp monster blobs should be at least A- even in a mainly physical meta

 

[Salemance]

Heh, just like a real match between Chansey and Blissey would be.

I'm not sure about Crobat. It's good; really fast, good typing, able to shift between defogger and great revenge killer. But it has competition from Lati@s as a defogger, Talonflame as a revenge killer, and Thundurus or Deoxys as an anti-lead with Taunt. He can do all that at once though and has Infiltrator for stuff behind subs, but his lack of defensive capability may hold him back. Hmm... not sure.

I will admit, he is a weird beast. He has arguably great typing (two x4 resistances makes his defenses great in some respect and usually little HP investment (usually mandatory for BB) allow him to live many a coverage move while unstabed) yet his biggest weakness may be that he can be....a tad redundant sometimes.

Most don't carry his secondary STAB on his wall breaking and support sets for good reason. Low BP and getting walled by Steel types isn't fun. He gets Heatwave...but that's special based...he gets Super Fang...but you better make sure you u-turn to something that can take that thing or at the least make sure it can't heal...

Hence why C+ seems more fitting as he is a little tricky to use but when used for what he is needed, he does damn good, thus why B- is the highest he could go.

 

[Colonial]

Not all of them. But my point is he can switch into every defensive spinner except donphan if it EQs which it probably won't. Also, i believe both the pink hp monster blobs should be at least A- even in a mainly physical meta

He CAN'T switch into every spinner! How can he switch into every spinner (aside from Forretress) when he's weak to their STABs?! And in this hypothetical situation devoid of prediction, we have to instead take to probability: A spinner is just as likely to anticipate the switch-in as try to spin, 50/50. Putting the life of one of your mons on a coin flip in which the opponent stands to lose little but momentum if they play wrong is NOT a sign of a good spinblocker.

 

[Baharoth]

Not all of them. But my point is he can switch into every defensive spinner except donphan if it EQs which it probably won't. Also, i believe both the pink hp monster blobs should be at least A- even in a mainly physical meta

Chandalure cant switch into any common spinner, exept maybe for forretress. Against Exca and Donphan it risks dying to EQ and against Starmie and Tentacruel it will take lots of dmg from some water attack. And Colonial said it already, a good spin blocker MUST be able to switch into the common spinners no matter what they do. Saying "it probably wont use EQ" simply isnt a valid argument.

/edit 2 slow -.-

 

[Colonial]

i am smart enough to do so.



so what ? it still loses to almost every pokemon in the tier , dont get me wrong but offensive pokemon are supposed to kill right ? this guy is unable to do so , people will just keep using it for a little mostly because of the rocks until it end ups low OU , maybe UU



rotom-water is everywhere , not that it means anything , just becuase it has good natural coverage doesn't mean he is great , and that there is not a crapload of pokemon that can sponge both of his attacks or destroy him before he gets a chance to move





and guess what ? thats something nice to post in the PO forums , i only the read the official smogon stats (much more better and representative), and those stats say that its 71% they skyrocketed from 31% in the BW to 71% in XY reviling exactly what i am saying the offensive niche of Mamo has dropped significantly people mostly use it for the rocks and even that wont last much believe me.



its 71%





nice let me see





ok it beats that , thanks to its 4x weaknaness


18% is 18% it still loses most of the time even after rocks it survives most of the time ,plus many Mgarchomps run bulk, the returning blow from garry kills most of the time.



focus miss kills next , most of the time



struggles to get a 2hko , pinsir always returns a ko , great check indeed


its 50-50



but what happens when it crosses the most common tyranitar set out there the mega one ? it still loses most of the time , superpower kills stone edge kills some times but the old scarf ans sash sets of the normal ttar one beat it as well



standard dragonite set can bypass it , it can hit with dragon claw first turn and then hit with xspeed after one lo recoil mamo is down, even in one to one this guy is unable to stop one of the most dominant dragons in the game, pathetic



none would be talking about dragonite if it wasn't for its multiscale




same with lando I




his average damage output is 65% that means mandibuzz can perform about 4 roosts before it gets into the ko zone as it recovers 56% every round , 4 rounds mean 4 life orb recoils , the last turn mandibuzz can hit foul play (51.8 - 61.4%) and get to die but take mamo with it at worst but there still that one chance that foul play damage roll hits for above 60% so it can use be used at the 3rd turn so it can beat that loser without dying

and i am not even going to calculate what happens if mandibuzz uses knock off knocking its lo away







the same with gliskor , although it can u turn on it face in case its offensive, rare super power also gets the job done





guess what happens next ?




lati@s return KOs





calcs speak by them self ,

*Ahem*
No, people use it for it's offensive ability. If people wanted "just rocks"- a stupid idea and a waste of a mon, just to get up rocks- then they would use Smeargle, Deoxys, or Ferrothorn. Stealth rock is no more important to Mamoswine then it is for Garchomp or Gliscor: they CAN run SR and they sometimes do, but it's far from a major part of their viability.

Your Mandibuzz argument is flawed. You're assuming Mamoswine gets the minimum damage role every single attack? Nonsense.

You arguments for 4x weak mons is also nonsensical: Yes, it KO'es because of the 4x weakness. The thing is, that 4x weakness is there, it's why Mamoswine is good: So many pokemon are weak to it. It's often called the Anti-Metagame pokemon for a reason.

There are not a good amount of pokemon that can sponge his attacks: He has the best offensive typing in the game, aside from Rotom and Skarmory, very little can effectively wall Mamoswine.

And stop saying that people are just "wrong" without providing any evidence to properly disprove their claims. We're providing facts, you're providing assertions without reason or explanation.

Finally, an expansion on the Dragonite calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 377-447 (116.3 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Ropeburn]

Mamoswine is an excellent pokemon. It has priority, good bulk, a great ability, and a solid movepool. It serves as a great check to Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus, Lati@s, and Dragonite. All of whom are in A ranking. That's not even half of what he checks.

 

[DestinyGallade]

He CAN'T switch into every spinner! How can he switch into every spinner (aside from Forretress) when he's weak to their STABs?! And in this hypothetical situation devoid of prediction, we have to instead take to probability: A spinner is just as likely to anticipate the switch-in as try to spin, 50/50. Putting the life of one of your mons on a coin flip in which the opponent stands to lose little but momentum if they play wrong is NOT a sign of a good spinblocker.

name a defensive spinner he can't switch into. Take the togekiss-donphan situation again. If he EQs predicting chandy and I nasty plot, he's going to have to sac something

 

[DestinyGallade]

Chandalure cant switch into any common spinner, exept maybe for forretress. Against Exca and Donphan it risks dying to EQ and against Starmie and Tentacruel it will take lots of dmg from some water attack. And Colonial said it already, a good spin blocker MUST be able to switch into the common spinners no matter what they do. Saying "it probably wont use EQ" simply isnt a valid argument.

/edit 2 slow -.-

note i said defensive spinner, you have a point about tentacruel though. (sorry about double post, mobile devices suck) also i never said that its a good spinner, i just said it double ups as one (now i look like a jackass, anyway, GALLADE FOR S RANK!!!

 

[Colonial]

name a defensive spinner he can't switch into. Take the togekiss-donphan situation again. If he EQs predicting chandy and I nasty plot, he's going to have to sac something

Once again, prediction is not a good argument. I bring up EQ because when theorymonning one is supposed to assume the worst case scenario. Since Chandelure is at a considerable risk every time it switches into a spinner, it is not a very good spinblocker.

Defensive spinners are a very rare breed in OU. In fact, the only truly defensive spinner I can think of is Forretress. Donphan has base 120 Attack and frequently invests in that. However, we have veered very much off course, what other arguments do you have for Chandy leaving C Rank?

 

[Wobbyble]

The only spinners you see are Starmie and Excadrill, rarely even Donphan. Chandelure as a spin blocker shouldn't even be a discussion.

 

[DestinyGallade]

Once again, prediction is not a good argument. I bring up EQ because when theorymonning one is supposed to assume the worst case scenario. Since Chandelure is at a considerable risk every time it switches into a spinner, it is not a very good spinblocker.

Defensive spinners are a very rare breed in OU. In fact, the only truly defensive spinner I can think of is Forretress. Donphan has base 120 Attack and frequently invests in that. However, we have veered very much off course, what other arguments do you have for Chandy leaving C Rank?

my argument for chandy leaving c wasn't it being a spinblocker in the first place. I could go on a rant about you making no sense but I won't because it would be pointless and your right we're getting off track. Chandelure is a scarfer that has a great sp.atk, a great offensive typing and a coverage move that everything (not literally) that its stab doesn't its a good late game scarfer as a strong flamethrower kills even resists at low yellow. Also its fun to lead with and kill the greninja lead, Bonus!

 

[ColtCababa]

name a defensive spinner he can't switch into. Take the togekiss-donphan situation again. If he EQs predicting chandy and I nasty plot, he's going to have to sac something

You were just asserting that Chandelure could switch into common spinners, and now you're asserting a scenario in which Chandelure doesn't even switch in to a non-spinner. What?

 

[DestinyGallade]

You were just asserting that Chandelure could switch into common spinners, and now you're asserting a scenario in which Chandelure doesn't even switch in to a non-spinner. What?

I was arguing two separate points. I'll skip a line next time if you found that hard to understand, anyway GALLADE FOR S RANK!!!!!

 

[114]

Holy shit. Magenzone in C+ rank?

I call immediate proposal for A- rank.

Y'all are talking about how mamoswine... rotom-w are antimeta.... no. Choice scarf magnezone is anti-meta. The top of the ladder is becoming more and more littered with these things. The natural bulk is incredible, and 135 base attack is strong af.
Flash cannon can 2HKO garchomp switch ins, and outspeed as well. Tbolt hits Rotoms for around 40-50%. Volt switch and hp fire for obvious reasons.

The reason why it's so good this gen is because of scizor/genesect's choiced steel moves, as well as the whole "bird craze". Outspeeds and can volt switch out of pinsir, providing ultimate insurance. Same goes for the zards. Additionally, the choice scarf puts it at one of the most anti-meta speed tiers, allowing it to outspeed base 112 pokemon. Skarmory's can't hide for long, and even outside of steels, this thing can pull off late game sweeps.

It's easy to pair with team members because the obvious way of killing it is too "standard" .. fighting and ground attacks can be fended off by just about every physical wall (hippo, landy, venu, tangrowth, celebi, mandi).
And extremely easy to pair offensively (pinsir, talon, excadrill, terrakion) cause it eliminates some nasty steels.

 

[Colonial]

my argument for chandy leaving c wasn't it being a spinblocker in the first place. I could go on a rant about you making no sense but I won't because it would be pointless and your right we're getting off track. Chandelure is a scarfer that has a great sp.atk, a great offensive typing and a coverage move that everything (not literally) that its stab doesn't its a good late game scarfer as a strong flamethrower kills even resists at low yellow. Also its fun to lead with and kill the greninja lead, Bonus!

While all that is true, what does Chandelure do that other scarfers don't? Remember, it isn't only stats that matter in OU Viability- it's the ability to stand out from the pack. Take Salamence for example- it's still a good pokemon and if it didn't have such strong competition it would probably be high OU. However, it has nothing that allows it to be better then Dragonite, CharX, or Kyurem, and that kills it. Chandy faces very strong competition from Genesect, Landorus, and Garchomp as scarfers. It failed to make OU last generation, and while the shift has helped it (no more permarain to ruin that Fire STAB, Ghost STAB improved), has that improvement really allowed it to outpace the power creep?

 

[DestinyGallade]

While all that is true, what does Chandelure do that other scarfers don't? Remember, it isn't only stats that matter in OU Viability- it's the ability to stand out from the pack. Take Salamence for example- it's still a good pokemon and if it didn't have such strong competition it would probably be high OU. However, it has nothing that allows it to be better then Dragonite, CharX, or Kyurem, and that kills it. Chandy faces very strong competition from Genesect, Landorus, and Garchomp as scarfers. It failed to make OU last generation, and while the shift has helped it (no more permarain to ruin that Fire STAB, Ghost STAB improved), has that improvement really allowed it to outpace the power creep?

even though special attacks aren't as good as last Gen with almost every fairy being amazingly specially bulky, its the only special scarfer that's actually good (feel free to correct me) apart from genesect. That puts chandy in a sort of opposite situation to salamence, the pickings are slim so its one of the best at its job, spamming powerful attacks late game. Its countered by alot of things but it checks a hell of alot of things. It makes a great place in a bulky offensive team with SR. Wear them down with constant switching, then finish up with chandy and something to help you switch. Chandy is by no means the best mon in ou, but I feel its certantly more than C. I've never used scarfchomp so I can't say anything about that but I think its along the same level of power as lanforus or more, but it can't bluff since it has to run scarf