Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Shroomisaur]

Oh. 114 post. How I miss these.

Mega Venusaur would've only been A under an opportunity cost presented against it taking a Mega slot. Beyond that the discussion is finalized.

Also Aegislash to A is kind of a joke. Mixed Aegislash really ramps up the threatening aspect and isn't as one - dimensional as Swords Dance.

I'll address more later but I'm sure I will be flamed hard for this - but I can buy Talonflame in S.

Actually... you won't get talonflamed for that (hilarious). In fact, I'm going to throw in my support for Talonflame for S rank.

Let's face it, Talon is a monster. At this point everyone knows how devastating a 180 BP Priority move is, I don't really have to go into detail. It does so much work. Completely shutting down anything weak to Flying (RIP Breloom D:) and it has great neutral coverage as well, so with CB it can revenge many sweepers/scarfers, including Greninja, Latios, and the like. Priority BB really is the ultimate "emergency button" and is an amazing late-game cleaning tool as well. Talonflame is pretty much the biggest factor behind the popularity of bulky offense (and the fall of HO).

However, there's plenty more it can do than just a simple CB set. At the beginning of the XY meta its SD set was far more common than CB, and it's still perfectly viable. It can easily run a Bulk Up set as well and set up on would-be counters like Heatran. While it's not as flexible as say, Aegislash, it really doesn't have to be. Brave Bird. Yeah. It's that good.

I don't get people saying that it requires more support than Pinsir or Charizard. Yes it requires Spin/Defog support, but how is that "more" support? If anything I'd say it requires less simply because BB means it will always be able to pick up kills (unlike the others which need to boost or outspeed their targets to be useful).

Obviously Talonflame's residual damage woes are a big hindrance, and that's the biggest stumbling block. I get that, it's awful... however, I don't mind if Talonflame dies quickly. If it did, it still did its job - it took out that boosting sweeper / revenged that scarfer / broke down the opponent's team. I know it's a tough sell, but I think it's deserving of an S-ranking.

EDIT: Aegis is still S-rank material, anything lower is just silly. Also Hippo still needs that A- rank :(

 

[Salemance]

.......What do they have against Hippowdon? I would love some clarification on this......

Update time:

Sharpedo: Unranked ---> B-
Gardevoir: B ---> C+
Gardevoir (Mega): B ---> B+
Cloyster: Unranked ---> C-
Deoxys-D: Stays in A
Manaphy: Stays in A+
Thundurus: Stays in A+
Ampharos (Mega): Unranked ---> C+
Tangrowth: Stays in C+
Diggersby: B- ---> B
Jirachi: Unranked ---> B
Aggron (Mega): Unranked ---> B-
Pinsir (Mega): Stays in S
Infernape: C+ ---> C
Magnezone: C+ ---> C
Salamence: Stays in C+
Shaymin: Unranked ---> C-
Nidoking: Unranked ---> C-
Mega Tyranitar: Stays in A
Hippowdon: B ---> B+
Rhyperior: Unranked ---> C
Zygarde: B- ---> B
Froslass: Unranked ---> C-
Azelf: Unranked ---> C
Meloetta: Unranked ---> C-
Rotom-C: Unranked ---> C-
Chesnaught: Stays in B-
Landorus-T: A ---> A+
Slowking: Unranked ---> C-
Houndoom (Mega): Unranked ---> C
Krookodile: B ---> C+
Crobat: C- ---> C
Escavalier: Unranked ---> C
Banette (Mega): Unranked ---> D

Those Pokemon have reached their ideal ranking conclusively, so unless the metagame changes (something gets banned or released), there is nothing more to be said about them, simple as that. And blacklisted Pokemon just attract bad posters like magnets and fuck up the thread, while also being very insignificant Pokemon, so they are locked permanently, unless the metagame changes.

Tangrowth stays the same too (I sense a pattern forming with these walls here) and Houndoom is C? Color me confused......

 

[alexwolf]

Guys, something with 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and a great deal of checks and counters can't be in S rank by definition:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support

Anti-SR support plus ways to deal with Talonflame's checks and counters is not little support, at least not as little as the other offensive monsters in S rank need. Mega Pinsir has much less checks and counters and can sweep late-game even with SR up, so it can even function with no support at all. Both Mega Zard formes can lead to somewhat mitigate the SR weakness, have way less checks and counters, and can do serious work even with their checks alive, thanks to their unpredictability and lack of hard counters. I only talked about the S rank Pokemon that had an SR weakness, as Talonflame does, as the other S rank offensive Pokemon obviously require almost zero support to function and are hard as fuck to wall/check, so they are obvious S ranks (Mega Lucario, Aegislash, Genesect). Talonflame doesn't fit to S rank by definition.

 

[Salt]

Alright, here's another annoyed post about these rankings. No mention of Thundurus-T at all? C+ doesn't make sense for it. It actually does a lot of things better than Thundurus-I, who is its main competition. Also hopping on the bandwagon for A rank Hippo and moving Tangrowth up. Actually, most of what these rankings turn out to be are lower than anything that is discussed. Mega Houdoom in C, Mega Aggron in B-, Tangrowth staying in C+.... maybe some posts from OU mods besides alexwolf to shed some light on the reasons of some of the more controversial would be nice. Also, wouldn't it have made more sense to update this tomorrow, seeing as how the suspect votes will be tallied and Mega Lucario will be banned the metagame will change? That would actually change the viability of some of these Pokemon.

 

[Blinkythechicken]

The point is that the main reason Aegislash's counters are so common is because it's so good it has warped the metagame around itself. That's solid S-rank.

Again, before the metagame shifted, Aegislash was easy S rank. But read your statement. "

The point is that the main reason Aegislash's counters are so common is because it's so good it has warped the metagame around itself. That's solid S-rank.

"It's counters are so common"

That, right there, is why Aegi should be A or A+, not S.

Other:
Please move Hippowdon up :P
What does anyone else think of Wobbo moving up to B/B+?

 

[TooMuchSugar]

I don't mean to be a bother, but could you also explain Banette's ranking? It's very similar to Sableye, with a couple major and minor differences:

Major +:
• It has an offensive presence. 165 base attack with one of the best offensive typings as STAB is scary.
• It gets destiny bond. This means it is guaranteed to get rid of a troublesome pokemon on the opposing team, as long as they aren't sweeping with priority.

Minor +:
• It has more bulk than Sableye.

----------

Major -:
• On the first turn, you don't have prankster

Minor -:
• No recovery
• Cannot be used with other megas.

Obviously as a team player Sableye will 9 times out of 10 be better, but as a focus of a team Banette certainly has a niche. To be D rank, you have to, "[be]
simply not very effective in the current metagame," while to be C ranked, you have to be effective but have crippling flaws, which, in my opinion completely describes Banette. So, by definition, and by comparison to Sableye, I'd recommend Banette (Mega) to C- rank. But I'd like to hear what the OU mods have to say.

It's the recovery that does it. Banette is very easy to wear down, as opposed to Sableye who can potentially last forever with Prankster Recover. The offensive presence is a decent bonus, but given that Sableye doesn't care how hard it hits, it's not really that important a plus over Sableye (anyway, Banette's best STAB is only 70 BP). The only plus really worth mentioning about Mega Banete is Prankster Destiny Bond, which is a helpful emergency revenge kill, but requires Banette to have already Mega-Evolved (unless it's using Protect).

To recap, Prankster Destiny bond is the only good reason to use Banette and it's not a particularly convincing one, hence the "not very effective in the metagame" classification.

Guys, something with 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and a great deal of checks and counters can't be in S rank by definition:
Anti-SR support plus ways to deal with Talonflame's checks and counters is not little support, at least not as little as the other offensive monsters in S rank need. Mega Pinsir has much less checks and counters and can sweep late-game even with SR up, so it can even function with no support at all. Both Mega Zard formes can lead to somewhat mitigate the SR weakness, have way less checks and counters, and can do serious work even with their checks alive, thanks to their unpredictability and lack of hard counters. I only talked about the S rank Pokemon that had an SR weakness, as Talonflame does, as the other S rank offensive Pokemon obviously require almost zero support to function and are hard as fuck to wall/check, so they are obvious S ranks (Mega Lucario, Aegislash, Genesect). Talonflame doesn't fit to S rank by definition.

Talonflame can function perfectly well with its checks alive, because it's a revenge killer (if a boosted sweeper switches out to a Talon counter, then Talonflame has essentially done its job). Talon is one of the most effective stops to any offensive pokemon, since it can KO most of them with little or no prior damage and priority. It does require that Stealth Rocks be removed to do this job effectively, but it doesn't need its counters gone because it's primarily a revenge killer, not a sweeper. That said, I'm not sure if being an incredible revenge killer is enough to get it to S.

Again, before the metagame shifted, Aegislash was easy S rank. But read your statement. "


"It's counters are so common"

That, right there, is why Aegi should be A or A+, not S.

Other:
Please move Hippowdon up :P
What does anyone else think of Wobbo moving up to B/B+?

Did you read the second half of the sentence? Where I said that Aegislash's counters are common because it's absolutely amazing, and the fact that it has changed the metagame by being so good makes it S-rank?

 

[SuperWumbology]

Again, before the metagame shifted, Aegislash was easy S rank. But read your statement. "


"It's counters are so common"

That, right there, is why Aegi should be A or A+, not S.

Other:
Please move Hippowdon up :P
What does anyone else think of Wobbo moving up to B/B+?

The reason why Aegislash's counters are so common is because without them, it can and will usually run over your team without effort whatsoever. Having those counters everywhere doesn't mean at all that Aegislash has lost some of its effectiveness, you can run 5 other Pokemon to deal with them. That's why Aegislash still fits the criteria of S rank after all this time: it runs over most of the metagame with little to no support, even if its counters are everywhere.

 

[Blinkythechicken]

It runs over most of the metagame with little to no support, even if its counters are everywhere.

How can it run over most of the metagame if it's counters are everywhere?

Did you read the second half of the sentence? Where I said that Aegislash's counters are common because it's absolutely amazing, and the fact that it has changed the metagame by being so good makes it S-rank?

For the last time, I 100% agree. It is absolutely amazing.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support.

But because it's counters are everywhere, it no longer can sweep significant portions of the metagame, meaning it is no longer S-rank. I feel it was S-rank, before the meta prepared for it. Now, A/A+.

 

[alexwolf]

Talonflame can function perfectly well with its checks alive, because it's a revenge killer (if a boosted sweeper switches out to a Talon counter, then Talonflame has essentially done its job). Talon is one of the most effective stops to any offensive pokemon, since it can KO most of them with little or no prior damage and priority. It does require that Stealth Rocks be removed to do this job effectively, but it doesn't need its counters gone because it's primarily a revenge killer, not a sweeper. That said, I'm not sure if being an incredible revenge killer is enough to get it to S.

While this would be true for most Pokemon, it's not on a Pokemon with a 4x weakness to SR. Talonflame has usually more difficulty getting into the field than the sweeper / offensive Pokemon that Talon wants to revenge kill does, which is why it is often needed to wear down its checks and counters in order for Talonflame to do its job properly.

Also, here is one hint: Don't suggest Aegislash to drop from S rank, it won't.

 

[SuperWumbology]

How can it run over most of the metagame if it's counters are everywhere?



For the last time, I 100% agree. It is absolutely amazing.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support.

But because it's counters are everywhere, it no longer can sweep significant portions of the metagame, meaning it is no longer S-rank. I feel it was S-rank, before the meta prepared for it. Now, A/A+.

I believe that Pokemon are ranked not based on how many things can keep it in check or deal with it, but the actual flaws of the Pokemon itself that prevent it from sweeping/walling. Aegislash has....relatively none of these. Good typing, awesome bulk and awesome offenses, good enough movepool to do what it needs to do. Its power is impeccable, and everything that could bring it down is outweighed by its pros, simple as that.

 

[Blinkythechicken]

I believe that Pokemon are ranked not based on how many things can keep it in check or deal with it, but the actual flaws of the Pokemon itself that prevent it from sweeping/walling. Aegislash has....relatively none of these. Good typing, awesome bulk and awesome offenses, good enough movepool to do what it needs to do. Its power is impeccable, and everything that could bring it down is outweighed by its pros, simple as that.

I respect what you are saying, but that is not how they are ranked. The thing is, the checks and counters, the Pokemon it can "keep in check or deal with" are its flaws which prevent it from sweeping. It has good typing. It has decent bulk. Great offenses, good move-pool. However, when the metagame is full of counters it is difficult to be that effective. The things that bring it down (the metagame itself) far outweigh its pros, IMO.

Edit: It dosen't deserve S though alexwolf xD

 

[ryan]

Alright, here's another annoyed post about these rankings. No mention of Thundurus-T at all? C+ doesn't make sense for it. It actually does a lot of things better than Thundurus-I, who is its main competition. Also hopping on the bandwagon for A rank Hippo and moving Tangrowth up. Actually, most of what these rankings turn out to be are lower than anything that is discussed. Mega Houdoom in C, Mega Aggron in B-, Tangrowth staying in C+.... maybe some posts from OU mods besides alexwolf to shed some light on the reasons of some of the more controversial would be nice. Also, wouldn't it have made more sense to update this tomorrow, seeing as how the suspect votes will be tallied and Mega Lucario will be banned the metagame will change? That would actually change the viability of some of these Pokemon.

The metagame has the potential to change pretty drastically after this suspect round. It's better to give the metagame some time to stabilize without whatever gets banned before we theorymon things up or down in viability.

I voted for Mega Aggron in B- because it doesn't actually bother as many physical attackers in OU as you might think it would. Mega Lucario doesn't care about it. Mega Charizard doesn't care about it. Choice Band Genesect U-turns out of it. Garchomp doesn't care. Landorus-T can take it on easily between its STAB Earthquake and good bulk. Conkeldurr gains HP off of it. Excadrill doesn't care. (Mega) Gyarados can't easily take it out, but the only thing it cares about from Mega Aggron is Thunder Wave. Mamoswine doesn't care. Scizor U-turns. Terrakion doesn't care. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Now this isn't to say Mega Aggron is worthless because it's definitely not. A lot of Mega Mawile carry Play Rough/Sucker Punch/Knock Off, which makes Mega Aggron a pretty solid answer to it. It's also a good answer to Flying-types, as it manhandles Mega Pinsir and Staraptor, and it forces Staraptor to go for Flare Blitz, which still only 2HKOs. But when a lot of the physical attackers in OU are either Ground- or Flying-types, it can be difficult to justify a teamslot on Mega Aggron.

Thundurus-T faces a ton of competition from Thundurus-I. It's stronger, but it's also a lot slower and doesn't have the Prankster Thunder Wave that makes Thundurus-I so good. A lot of offensive teams rely on Thundurus-I to take on faster Pokemon as well as Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, which Thundurus-T just cannot do well, as they both 2HKO and outspeed it. Meanwhile, Talonflame needs to be running Jolly to outrun Thundurus-I, and Mega Pinsir cannot outspeed it at all. Thundurus-T is a pretty good wallbreaker, but the amount of choices for wallbreakers vs. the amount of choices for a check to everything fast in OU is very high.

And Mega Houndoom is pretty bad. It needs a lot of support to do really well in OU because it's honestly really weak without sun support. Its main issue in OU in my opinion is that for a fast and frail attacker to be really good, it either needs to be stupidly strong or have priority. Look at S-rank. Both Mega Charizards are disgustingly powerful, and both have good bulk, while Mega Lucario is really strong, really fast, and has priority, Genesect is really strong, fast, has great typing and U-turn, and has priority, and Mega Pinsir is really strong, fast, and has fantastic/powerful priority. This is the state that the OU metagame is in right now. It's a huge game of priority, which is why you don't see very many Choice Scarf users outside of Genesect (which often uses Band with priority anyways). Mega Houndoom isn't strong enough without sun support or bulky enough without priority to make a large impact on OU.

That's why I voted the ways I did on these nominations. I usually don't post with explanations, but because Mega Aggron is an iffy one that could have fallen either way, I don't mind doing so for it (and I was already here anyways so explained everything else). It's alright if you disagree with me, but remember that I'm not the only one who voted this way for these Pokemon.

 

[Thorhammer]

Also, here is one hint: Don't suggest Aegislash to drop from S rank, it won't.

So it's basically another "Conclusion Reached"?

 

[alexwolf]

So it's basically another "Conclusion Reached"?

Yeah, pretty much. Added.

 

[SuperWumbology]

The metagame has the potential to change pretty drastically after this suspect round. It's better to give the metagame some time to stabilize without whatever gets banned before we theorymon things up or down in viability.

I voted for Mega Aggron in B- because it doesn't actually bother as many physical attackers in OU as you might think it would. Mega Lucario doesn't care about it. Mega Charizard doesn't care about it. Choice Band Genesect U-turns out of it. Garchomp doesn't care. Landorus-T can take it on easily between its STAB Earthquake and good bulk. Conkeldurr gains HP off of it. Excadrill doesn't care. (Mega) Gyarados can't easily take it out, but the only thing it cares about from Mega Aggron is Thunder Wave. Mamoswine doesn't care. Scizor U-turns. Terrakion doesn't care. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Now this isn't to say Mega Aggron is worthless because it's definitely not. A lot of Mega Mawile carry Play Rough/Sucker Punch/Knock Off, which makes Mega Aggron a pretty solid answer to it. It's also a good answer to Flying-types, as it manhandles Mega Pinsir and Staraptor, and it forces Staraptor to go for Flare Blitz, which still only 2HKOs. But when a lot of the physical attackers in OU are either Ground- or Flying-types, it can be difficult to justify a teamslot on Mega Aggron.

Thundurus-T faces a ton of competition from Thundurus-I. It's stronger, but it's also a lot slower and doesn't have the Prankster Thunder Wave that makes Thundurus-I so good. A lot of offensive teams rely on Thundurus-I to take on faster Pokemon as well as Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, which Thundurus-T just cannot do well, as they both 2HKO and outspeed it. Meanwhile, Talonflame needs to be running Jolly to outrun Thundurus-I, and Mega Pinsir cannot outspeed it at all. Thundurus-T is a pretty good wallbreaker, but the amount of choices for wallbreakers vs. the amount of choices for a check to everything fast in OU is very high.

And Mega Houndoom is pretty bad. It needs a lot of support to do really well in OU because it's honestly really weak without sun support. Its main issue in OU in my opinion is that for a fast and frail attacker to be really good, it either needs to be stupidly strong or have priority. Look at S-rank. Both Mega Charizards are disgustingly powerful, and both have good bulk, while Mega Lucario is really strong, really fast, and has priority, Genesect is really strong, fast, has great typing and U-turn, and has priority, and Mega Pinsir is really strong, fast, and has fantastic/powerful priority. This is the state that the OU metagame is in right now. It's a huge game of priority, which is why you don't see very many Choice Scarf users outside of Genesect (which often uses Band with priority anyways). Mega Houndoom isn't strong enough without sun support or bulky enough without priority to make a large impact on OU.

That's why I voted the ways I did on these nominations. I usually don't post with explanations, but because Mega Aggron is an iffy one that could have fallen either way, I don't mind doing so for it (and I was already here anyways so explained everything else). It's alright if you disagree with me, but remember that I'm not the only one who voted this way for these Pokemon.

Though I do see your argument about Thundurus-T, which is pretty much correct, most of the stuff that you mentioned that "don't care" about Mega Aggron aren't really answers to it. As a tank (I don't class it as a wall due to lack of good recovery), Mega Aggron can still retaliate with some effectiveness with its relatively helpful coverage moves and respectable base 140 offenses, which are good for it even if uninvested. Mega Aggron can, and usually will carry, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Iron Head (can beat Mamo with it) and Earthquake, and though probably not all at once, it deals with almost every single Pokemon you mentioned bar Conkeldurr,Gyarados and Lando-T, as Lando only gets 3HKO'd by a -1 uninvested Ice Punch (U-turning lets the bugs escape a fiery fate). The coverage moves that Mega Aggron has access to should be used more often, and prevents it from being used as set-up fodder and lets it actually beat the things it's supposed to check, though I'm not too fussy on it being B-, so please don't sue me.

 

[Exclaimer]

I guess these arguments make Aegislash seem better than it is, for me at least. My vouching for it is because I can't play with it well, and my team actually makes Aegislash a liability. But that's just me, and every S rank has that kind of situation. Except Genesect.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Guys, something with 4x weakness to Stealth Rock and a great deal of checks and counters can't be in S rank by definition:
Anti-SR support plus ways to deal with Talonflame's checks and counters is not little support, at least not as little as the other offensive monsters in S rank need. Mega Pinsir has much less checks and counters and can sweep late-game even with SR up, so it can even function with no support at all. Both Mega Zard formes can lead to somewhat mitigate the SR weakness, have way less checks and counters, and can do serious work even with their checks alive, thanks to their unpredictability and lack of hard counters. I only talked about the S rank Pokemon that had an SR weakness, as Talonflame does, as the other S rank offensive Pokemon obviously require almost zero support to function and are hard as fuck to wall/check, so they are obvious S ranks (Mega Lucario, Aegislash, Genesect). Talonflame doesn't fit to S rank by definition.

While I understand the reasoning (and I'm perfectly fine with it remaining A+) I don't like the argument of it not fitting the "definition", considering there are many Pokemon that don't fall strictly into their rank's "definition". For example, according to the rank definitions, Whimsicott would be a solid B-rank (Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.). In addition, Talonflame doesn't exactly fall into the definition of sweeper, it's more of a revenge killer. Genesect is an example that doesn't fit the traditional description of sweeper, yet is obviously S-rank and hopefully about to vanish from this list!

Anyway, on the topic of out-of-place Pokemon... Sharpedo in B- rank!? It's certainly threatening, but it's so frail that it can't switch in on anything, its STABs are low BP moves and no more perma-rain holds it back against bulkier teams, and it's incredibly vulnerable to the common priority in OU. The metagame is really hostile towards it, and if Scolipede is only B-rank, I'd say Sharpedo is C-rank at best.

 

[UnicornDemon]

Wtf this list is humongous... Do we really need spots for Mr. Mime and Escavalier? Not that it really matters to me but a lot of the Pokemon in C rank and below have like no relevance in OU.

 

[Seiterman]

Wtf this list is humongous... Do we really need spots for Mr. Mime and Escavalier? Not that it really matters to me but a lot of the Pokemon in C rank and below have like no relevance in OU.

Relevant as in "you'll see them ever," or "they can do their part on a team, to some degree?"

While a lot of C and D rank Pokemon are hard to justify using, the point of having them ranked at all is that they can be used effectively. We want to have clear ideas of how useful a mon can be, even if it isn't great.

Honestly, I think the fact that the list is so big is indicative of a metagame with a lot of options; that sounds great to me. The OP could maybe be formatted with hide tags so it isn't as gigantic, but I don't like the idea of getting rid of Pokemon on the list just to make it smaller (even if it's near-irrelevant crap like Mr. Mime, so long as there's a reason to ever use it.)

 

[Fafnir]

There are also a lot that, given the right teams and specific niche to fill, have some very specialized relevance to OU.

At least in the case of Mr. Mime, Soundproof means he can help BP teams get around phazing.

 

[trc]

tbh alex and the rest of the ou team, shaymin doesn't really deserve C-. it doesn't really have trouble with a lot of the things you mentioned thanks to hp rock, certainly better than rhyperior in any case. it's actually quite powerful, and has advantages over mega venusaur from an offensive point of view.

 

[Shiruba]

ok why isn't regular venusaur on the list
if we have ninetales we need to mention venusaur, surely
i say somewhere in b tier (b-?) because sun was nerfed and got new counters and stuff as well as sleep being nerfed but it's still a wrecking ball with growth and it can go mixed very well, has a lot of options
is also the best of all starters design-wise

discuss

 

[Lcs865]

ok why isn't regular venusaur on the list
if we have ninetales we need to mention venusaur, surely
i say somewhere in b tier (b-?) because sun was nerfed and got new counters and stuff as well as sleep being nerfed but it's still a wrecking ball with growth and it can go mixed very well, has a lot of options
is also the best of all starters design-wise

discuss

First off, design is about as irrelevant as mentioning the Denver Broncos in a 2014 Super Bowl Champion discussion: very.

Secondly, B-rank is extremely generous for something who's main niche is 10x harder than it was last gen. At best, Venusaur could see somewhere within C range for the reasons stated

 

[Shroomisaur]

ok why isn't regular venusaur on the list
if we have ninetales we need to mention venusaur, surely
i say somewhere in b tier (b-?) because sun was nerfed and got new counters and stuff as well as sleep being nerfed but it's still a wrecking ball with growth and it can go mixed very well, has a lot of options
is also the best of all starters design-wise

discuss

I was about to mention this myself, so good job bringing it up. Non-mega Venusaur is still viable as the best Sun-sweeper available, and it makes no sense to list Ninetales without one of the best abusers of Sun. Unfortunately due to the turn limit and Venusaur's reliance on Growth, it's much more difficult to pull off now. I'd say it belongs in C-rank.

 

[Colonel M]

I think I can concede with Talonflame still in A+ but the prime reason is comparing it to the Mega Charizards is hard. Even to Mega Pinsir it is a little bit trickier but, to be fair, Talonflame has an edge against a lot more of the defensive mons in some ways (they kind of trade Skarmory for Heatran).