Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Lcs865]

Doublade for C-/D Rank
Doublade is an extremely physically bulky mon (With eviolite, that is), but gets absolutely shredded by a special hits and lacks reliable recovery. However, if in an ideal situation, it can tank a hit wit ease and retaliate either with an SD or a very powerful STAB move, it deserves a rank imo

 

[alexwolf]

While I understand the reasoning (and I'm perfectly fine with it remaining A+) I don't like the argument of it not fitting the "definition", considering there are many Pokemon that don't fall strictly into their rank's "definition". For example, according to the rank definitions, Whimsicott would be a solid B-rank (Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.). In addition, Talonflame doesn't exactly fall into the definition of sweeper, it's more of a revenge killer. Genesect is an example that doesn't fit the traditional description of sweeper, yet is obviously S-rank and hopefully about to vanish from this list!

Anyway, on the topic of out-of-place Pokemon... Sharpedo in B- rank!? It's certainly threatening, but it's so frail that it can't switch in on anything, its STABs are low BP moves and no more perma-rain holds it back against bulkier teams, and it's incredibly vulnerable to the common priority in OU. The metagame is really hostile towards it, and if Scolipede is only B-rank, I'd say Sharpedo is C-rank at best.

The problem with Whimsicott happens because the definition of B rank is fucked up. Really, it's exactly the same one with C rank's.

As for Genesect, it doesn't really matter what it is that it does, be it revenge killing, sweeping, grabbing momentum, wallbreaking, or luring, what it matters is that it can beat a huge portion of the tier 1 on 1 and requires zero support, making it one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Talonflame needs much more support than any other Pokemon in S rank, which is why it doesn't deserve to be there.

 

[Pancham]

As for Genesect, it doesn't really matter what it is that it does, be it revenge killing, sweeping, grabbing momentum, wallbreaking, or luring, what it matters is that it can beat a huge portion of the tier 1 on 1 and requires zero support, making it one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Talonflame needs much more support than any other Pokemon in S rank, which is why it doesn't deserve to be there.

I'd argue it to need the exact same amount of support as Charizard. Sounds pretty accurate to me, tbh...

 

[the mystery duck]

Despite being discussed on during Espeon's drop to C+, Xatu is not on the list. I do agree that Xatu is a better magic bouncer than Espeon (more resistances, ground immunity, u-turn). I think it should be C+.

Although its psychic typing hinders it more often than helps, I believe that Victini should still be ranked. CB V-Create still punch holes through teams without Heatran and Mega Char-X. It also has the stats and movepool to pull off a decent amount of other sets well, whether it's special, physical, or mixed. Personally, I think it should be C+ (mainly due to it being SR-weak).

I believe that Gothitelle, Snorlax, and Suicune are worth discussing about, but have little experience with them. What does everyone think about them?

 

[Fafnir]

Snorlax doesn't do much that other pokemon can do better these days. He's most notably competent with an Assault Vest, but Tyranitar tends to do a better job at that, while also packing STAB on pursuit. I'd say C at best. He's not bad this gen, just not particularly good.

Suicune is an absolute beast. There's really only one viable set, but it's one hell of a set. Cune's got the brute force to make it to lower-end A ranks, but I think that its predictability will bring it back down to B range.

 

[Seiterman]

I'd argue it to need the exact same amount of support as Charizard. Sounds pretty accurate to me, tbh...

You'd be arguing incorrectly. It's not like this hasn't been debunked in the last 3 pages. =/

The Charizards have far fewer checks/counters than Talonflame. You need to get those checks/counters out of the way for Talonflame or he's not gonna be doing too much. Removing problematic threats for a sweeper/cleaner is just as much support as something like a spinner.

For that matter, SR hurts Talonflame more than the Zards by virtue of his main method of dealing damage and his role in a team. Talonflame is frailer than either Charizard form as is, and on top of that both of his STABs have recoil. He probably can't take out much after switching into SR because of this. As for his role, he's often a revenge killer, and as such it is likely you'll need to being him in more than once in a battle. Charizard can function as a lead to mitigate his weakness, and should it do its sweeping role correctly likely won't have to switch in again.

 

[Srn]

The metagame has the potential to change pretty drastically after this suspect round. It's better to give the metagame some time to stabilize without whatever gets banned before we theorymon things up or down in viability.

I voted for Mega Aggron in B- because it doesn't actually bother as many physical attackers in OU as you might think it would. Mega Lucario doesn't care about it. Mega Charizard doesn't care about it. Choice Band Genesect U-turns out of it. Garchomp doesn't care. Landorus-T can take it on easily between its STAB Earthquake and good bulk. Conkeldurr gains HP off of it. Excadrill doesn't care. (Mega) Gyarados can't easily take it out, but the only thing it cares about from Mega Aggron is Thunder Wave. Mamoswine doesn't care. Scizor U-turns. Terrakion doesn't care. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Now this isn't to say Mega Aggron is worthless because it's definitely not. A lot of Mega Mawile carry Play Rough/Sucker Punch/Knock Off, which makes Mega Aggron a pretty solid answer to it. It's also a good answer to Flying-types, as it manhandles Mega Pinsir and Staraptor, and it forces Staraptor to go for Flare Blitz, which still only 2HKOs. But when a lot of the physical attackers in OU are either Ground- or Flying-types, it can be difficult to justify a teamslot on Mega Aggron.

Thundurus-T faces a ton of competition from Thundurus-I. It's stronger, but it's also a lot slower and doesn't have the Prankster Thunder Wave that makes Thundurus-I so good. A lot of offensive teams rely on Thundurus-I to take on faster Pokemon as well as Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, which Thundurus-T just cannot do well, as they both 2HKO and outspeed it. Meanwhile, Talonflame needs to be running Jolly to outrun Thundurus-I, and Mega Pinsir cannot outspeed it at all. Thundurus-T is a pretty good wallbreaker, but the amount of choices for wallbreakers vs. the amount of choices for a check to everything fast in OU is very high.

And Mega Houndoom is pretty bad. It needs a lot of support to do really well in OU because it's honestly really weak without sun support. Its main issue in OU in my opinion is that for a fast and frail attacker to be really good, it either needs to be stupidly strong or have priority. Look at S-rank. Both Mega Charizards are disgustingly powerful, and both have good bulk, while Mega Lucario is really strong, really fast, and has priority, Genesect is really strong, fast, has great typing and U-turn, and has priority, and Mega Pinsir is really strong, fast, and has fantastic/powerful priority. This is the state that the OU metagame is in right now. It's a huge game of priority, which is why you don't see very many Choice Scarf users outside of Genesect (which often uses Band with priority anyways). Mega Houndoom isn't strong enough without sun support or bulky enough without priority to make a large impact on OU.

That's why I voted the ways I did on these nominations. I usually don't post with explanations, but because Mega Aggron is an iffy one that could have fallen either way, I don't mind doing so for it (and I was already here anyways so explained everything else). It's alright if you disagree with me, but remember that I'm not the only one who voted this way for these Pokemon.

I don't mean to be annoying or anything but

and it forces Staraptor to go for Flare Blitz, which still only 2HKOs.

Oh how amazing that would be...

Anyway

I'd argue it to need the exact same amount of support as Charizard. Sounds pretty accurate to me, tbh...

No, that's not true.
Mega Charizard-X and Mega Charizard-Y actually have a legit amount of bulk; the former boasts a pretty great defensive typing (the bulky set can even set up on rotom-w), and the latter can take unboosted tbolts from genesect and roost them off later.
While I agree that the BU set (which is amazing omg people should seriously use bulk up talonflame more) doesn't actually need a defogger as much as the banded one does, because its a little bit more bulky (only takes like 65%-70% from rotom-w hydro pump), the most common variant, the banded one, is frail as hell and will be coming in A LOT.
The mega zards actually have some decent bulk to live a hit, roost, and set up/nuke something, which is allows them to live longer and thus require a little less support.
Meanwhile, talonflame has crappy base hp and recoil on both of his STABs, compounded by terrible bulk overall and a basic lack of time to waste with roost. That thing dies quick and fast, the zards actually have some type of staying power.
They need the same support, and it IS pretty accurate that they both need a rock remover, but talonflame in my eyes needs it a LOT more than the z

 

[Pancham]

Srn9130 Seiterman

I actually don't use Talonflame as a revenge killer. I mostly use banded Talonbird as a momentum gainer with U-turn, I also lead with it btw, and I use Talonbird's great power to keep offensive pressure going, mostly U-turning every now and then in the battle with the rest of my VolTurn core. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Pinsir needs you to inflict prior damage to most of its checks before it can maintain its sweep as well, I use Talon+Pinsir core, and as for "much fewer checks" I'm honestly not seeing it. You have Heatran, Blobs, Rotom-h, Lati@s, and a few others for Y, Heatran (if no Earthquake) for the better of the Zards, X. Maybe Charizard X needs less team support, but ONLY after it has mega evolved, as I'd argue X to currently be the best DDancer. Talonbird is not primarily a revenge killer, tbh, it's a cleaner. And it does that job extraordinarily well, I'd actually probably argue it to be the best cleaner in the current tier. Early-Mid game, if you're banded, Talonbird should really just be U-turning to wear down its checks, Rotom and Tar, as for Heatran, you can trap it with Dug, or get off an SD with Pinsir and see what the do.

Though, given Zard Y isn't a sweeper, and doesn't necessarily care if it gets interrupted, due to it being a wall breaker, it can easily just decide to nuke it's check and give it a hefty amount of damage with its stabs so your sweeper can go in and do what it does. Also, I am not entirely sure which Talonbird you're using, but even with minimal bulk EVs, my lives hits it somehow takes frequently, and goes on to clean the game after MegaPinsir broke through the defensive core. I mean yah, Talon may need more support if it was a sweeper, however, it's a cleaner, and it is by far the best we've got right now.

 

[Salemance]

*feels like discussing promotions for Tangrowth and Hippo but that would be beating a dead horse*

I will agree to that though as its Talon's bulk that holds him back from S tier. Often I end up fighting him with many different things, and often I find un-invested attacks taking more than I think the Talon player cares for. Such as I remember fighting one with my Quagsire, and used an un-invested Scald of of Quag's weaker special attack stat and took bout 50% of his health. Combine that with that all his Kamikaze tactics, it makes it rough to root for him going high.

His cleaning capabilities are without question among the best if not the best, but he is sadly hindered by being a frail Falcon.

 

[alexwolf]

It has already been explained why the Mega Char formes need way less support than Talonflame, while also being way more dangerous offensively, so time to explain why i voted for some ranks that go against what the majority seems to have agreed in this thread:

Thundurus in A+

This was a tough choice, and a pretty close one in terms of votes, but in the end i voted for it in A+. Unlike the other offensive threats in S rank, Thundurus is easier to check. Mamoswine, Mega Venusaur, AV Excadrill, Lati@s, Hippowdon, Mega Char X, and Unaware Clefable are all excellent Pokemon that can deal with Thundurus to an extend. Of course depending on the set, Thundurus can beat some of them (NP beats Hippo, LO can 2HKO some of them with the right coverage move, Knock Off fucks up Lati@s), but usually the price you pay for bringing in the wrong check is not too high, as Thundurus's each set individually has many flaws. NP + Sub with Lefties + 2 attacks is very easy to wall and lacks immediate power, LO + 3 attacks gets worn down very easily and is very prone to priority and revenge killers, and mixed Thundurus (with Knock Off and Superpower) is easy to handle with Pokemon that are bulky on both sides (such as AV Conkeldurr and SpD Mega Scizor), while again being easy to revenge kill with faster Pokemon and priority. And all those sets have some universal checks/counters, such as Mega Venusaur, Mamoswine, Choice Scarf Excadrill, SpD Hippowdon, and Mega Char X, all of which are great Pokemon.

So, all in all, while Thundurus has excellent offensive presence, can provide good support with Prankster Thunder Wave, and has a great deal of versatility, it's not on the same level with the other S rank Pokemon.

Mega Aggron in B-

Mega Aggron has several flaws that prevent him from taking advantage of his immense walling potential, with lack of any kind of recovery being the main one. Mega Aggron is just too easy to wear down in such a fast paced metagame, and the fact that it's not hard to switch in doesn't help either. Mega Aggron often takes ~15-20% damage each time it switches in on a physical attacker, and then either sets up SR or you have to immediately switch out to avoid giving free switches and losing momentum. Also, while his physical bulk is phenomenal, most physical attackers with Ground-, Fire-, and Fighting- attacks (most of them) can 3HKO Mega Aggron at worst, which means that Aggron can only check them for once, twice at best, which is very hard to do without any kind of recovery. Finally, the opportunity cost is always there, as when using Mega Aggron you have to give up on all the other amazing MEvos.

That said, the sheer amount of physical attackers it can check is amazing, and it can work decently as a pivot on fast-paced bulky offense teams or with some Wish support, which is why it's in B- rank and not any lower.

Mega Ampharos in C+

Mega Ampharos shares some of the problems of Mega Aggron, such as lack of any kind of recovery and weakness to common moves. However, it has much better offensive presence than Mega Aggron and can give a lot of free switches to its teammates with its slow Volt Switch. Ultimately, Mega Ampharos is even easier than Mega Aggron to wear down, due to its smaller bulk on the defensive stat it chooses to invest in, more weaknesses, and lack of Filter, while also facing immense competition from Rotom-W, making it an even more situational choice in this metagame than Mega Aggron.

 

[mikereyes]

I believe that Gothitelle, Snorlax, and Suicune are worth discussing about, but have little experience with them. What does everyone think about them?

I said the following on Suicune earlier but it got buried:

"Not sure if its been nominated or not, but I want to nominate Suicune for B+.

While it is true that CroCune (possibly the only viable set) has trouble with Pokemon such as Celebi, Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Blissey and Chansey, most of those pokemon (besides Chansey perhaps) are seemingly dropping in popularity from last gen. And in this very physical based meta, Scald is not the worst move to be mono-attacking with, not to mention that Heatran and Talonflame don't like taking hot water to the face.

I feel like Suicune fulfills the requirement for B rank:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers.

However, Suicune can indeed wall a significant portion of the game right now, while not having a big flaw outside of only having Scald as an attack. Because of this, I think he is a good fit for B+."

 

[X5Dragon]

*feels like discussing promotions for Tangrowth and Hippo but that would be beating a dead horse*
His cleaning capabilities are without question among the best if not the best, but he is sadly hindered by being a frail Falcon.

I think the question is does his frailty (which isn't unique in either A+ or the S tiers) prevent him from being the best at his job? Is there a single pokemon out there that can threaten this group of mons and keep the player's team assure that it can handle out of hand sweepers and fast, hard hitting mons when the situation calls for it? I don't think so. So aside of his other capabilities of being a great sweeper and cleaner:

Charizard X
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 216-255 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Charizard Y
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 288-340 (96.6 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Genesect
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 273-322 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Lucario
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 262-309 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

MPinsir (Obv)
Venusaur (Obv)
Deoxys-S (Obv)

Landrous-I
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 256-303 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thundrus-I
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 286-337 (95.3 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Azumarill
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 283-334 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Conkeldurr (Obv)
Excadrill (Obv)
Gengar (Obv)

Greninja
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 325-384 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Keldeo (Obv)
Volcarona (Obv)

Latias
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 256-303 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Latios
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 283-334 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Togekiss
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 246-289 (65.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tornadus-T
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 315-372 (105 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

==

I do agree that being A+ is not exactly an insult and maybe it is best until people understand his role in the metagame and influence and what he has to offer. But before this debate goes for a while remember that when any of these mons intend to sweep, the first thing they need aside from SR is for the bird to die.

 

[114]

I'm also on the S rank for talonflame side. It's rather cheap... and its main counter heatran can take a u turn and be in front of dugtrio. Same for tyranitar (who can also get wisp'd). In general its counters can be worn down to make way for a talon sweep, and while same can be said for other sweepers, you can't stop it with priority or scarfers. It's kind of stupid really. But A+ is still damn good so I'm not pushing too hard for it.

Also, can we discuss magnezone in C? Seems ridiculous to me. The scarf set kills it this generation.

 

[Salemance]

I think the question is does his frailty (which isn't unique in either A+ or the S tiers) prevent him from being the best at his job? Is there a single pokemon out there that can threaten this group of mons and keep the player's team assure that it can handle out of hand sweepers and fast, hard hitting mons when the situation calls for it? I don't think so. So aside of his other capabilities of being a great sweeper and cleaner:

Charizard X
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 216-255 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Charizard Y
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 288-340 (96.6 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Genesect
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 273-322 (96.4 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Lucario
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 262-309 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

MPinsir (Obv)
Venusaur (Obv)
Deoxys-S (Obv)

Landrous-I
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 256-303 (80 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thundrus-I
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 286-337 (95.3 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Azumarill
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 283-334 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Conkeldurr (Obv)
Excadrill (Obv)
Gengar (Obv)

Greninja
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 325-384 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Keldeo (Obv)
Volcarona (Obv)

Latias
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 256-303 (84.7 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Latios
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 283-334 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Togekiss
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 246-289 (65.7 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Tornadus-T
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 315-372 (105 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

==

I do agree that being A+ is not exactly an insult and maybe it is best until people understand his role in the metagame and influence and what he has to offer. But before this debate goes for a while remember that when any of these mons intend to sweep, the first thing they need aside from SR is for the bird to die.

Oh believe me bud, I'm not insulting the bird in anyway and am not saying that others do not have the exact same problem. The only thing I was saying is that I can understand its bulk + Kamikaze attacks being an influence as to why Talon is not in S (along with what axelwolf said bout Talon not being able to get into S based definition and junk).

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Nominating Krookodile for B- rank

I know he gets competition from landy t but hear me out. Krookodile has 3 major things over landy: taunt, stronger knock off and ghost/dark resists.

when I had landy on my team I was just saying in my head "I really wish he learned taunt so I could stop the opponent from getting their hazards up." with krookodile you can stop them setting up their hazards because his 92 speed outspeeds most hazard setters (only ones he doesn't is gliscor, deoxys-sanic and galvantula).

as for stronger knock offs.
0 Atk Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 852-1004 (446 - 525.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
16+ Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 764-900 (400 - 471.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

ghost/dark resists is pretty big given how common they are. some examples.

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 251-296 (65.7 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 139-164 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

aegislash is one of the most feared special attackers in the entire tier and krookodile doesn't give a shit, and he isn't even supposed to be a special wall.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 84 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 113-133 (32.1 - 37.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Landorus-T: 308-363 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

bisharp is forced to go for sucker punch as both outspeed and 1hko with earthquake.

here is c rank's description.

Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

krookodile doesn't really have any major flaws preventing him to "wall physical attackers, set up sr and taunt stuff slower than it" and he definitely isn't completely eclipsed by landorus-t for the reasons I mentioned above.

here is b rank's description.

Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

That's more like it. krookodile dies to most special attackers it doesn't resist, so it can't wall significant parts of the metagame. And it definitely is partially eclipsed by landorus-t, with being weaker, marginally frailer, no u-turn and not having the benefits of a flying subtype

 

[Deaga]

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 84 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 113-133 (32.1 - 37.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Landorus-T: 308-363 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

What about a +3 Sucker Punch? Seems plausible it Swords DAnces on the switch and then grabs a +1 Attack boost from Intimidate+Defiant shenaningans.

 

[Salemance]

What about a +3 Sucker Punch? Seems plausible it Swords DAnces on the switch and then grabs a +1 Attack boost from Intimidate+Defiant shenaningans.

+3 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 84 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 187-222 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

What about a +3 Sucker Punch? Seems plausible it Swords DAnces on the switch and then grabs a +1 Attack boost from Intimidate+Defiant shenaningans.

+3 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 84 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 187-222 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
still outspeeds and 1hkos. some bisharps don't even carry life orb.

EDIT: greninja'd

 

[UnicornDemon]

Relevant as in "you'll see them ever," or "they can do their part on a team, to some degree?"

While a lot of C and D rank Pokemon are hard to justify using, the point of having them ranked at all is that they can be used effectively. We want to have clear ideas of how useful a mon can be, even if it isn't great.

Honestly, I think the fact that the list is so big is indicative of a metagame with a lot of options; that sounds great to me. The OP could maybe be formatted with hide tags so it isn't as gigantic, but I don't like the idea of getting rid of Pokemon on the list just to make it smaller (even if it's near-irrelevant crap like Mr. Mime, so long as there's a reason to ever use it.)

By irrelevant I mean there's a large opportunity cost in using them as they could most likely be replaced by something else which can contribute far more to the team.

It doesn't really bother me that people want to nominate UU and RU mons, but when I'm constructing a team I want to use the best Pokemon available in OU. So, it'd be helpful to know the strengths and weaknesses of the Pokemon in the A and S tier rather than the viability of a Pokemon like Mr. Mime. But I suppose I can find that information elsewhere...

 

[Chev]

By irrelevant I mean there's a large opportunity cost in using them as they could most likely be replaced by something else which can contribute far more to the team.

It doesn't really bother me that people want to nominate UU and RU mons, but when I'm constructing a team I want to use the best Pokemon available in OU. So, it'd be helpful to know the strengths and weaknesses of the Pokemon in the A and S tier rather than the viability of a Pokemon like Mr. Mime. But I suppose I can find that information elsewhere...

When over half the time you do legitimately find people using the same 12-15 pokemon for teams in OU, there is still a large percentage of said time that you see people using something other than what you deem "viable". All pokemon are viable to any sort of extent, and that's why you will see people using their favorites or even obscure 'mons. Everyone has a reason for it, and I can say with certainty that these reasons usually lie around a strategy that they want to use so they can catch you off-guard. So, Mr. Mime will always be useful to some, although not to you. Remember, you aren't the only person in the world of pokemon; there are more than 10 million of us in total.

 

[UnicornDemon]

When over half the time you do legitimately find people using the same 12-15 pokemon for teams in OU, there is still a large percentage of said time that you see people using something other than what you deem "viable". All pokemon are viable to any sort of extent, and that's why you will see people using their favorites or even obscure 'mons. Everyone has a reason for it, and I can say with certainty that these reasons usually lie around a strategy that they want to use so they can catch you off-guard. So, Mr. Mime will always be useful to some, although not to you. Remember, you aren't the only person in the world of pokemon; there are more than 10 million of us in total.

Sorry, I guess my post may have come across as rude. I like to use obscure Pokemon as well sometimes just to mix things up.

Although, I usually like heading down into lower tiers to use the Pokemon that aren't viable in OU. For example, one of my favorite Pokemon is Sceptile, but I'm waiting for RU to open up before I use him. It's just kind of frustrating using him in OU and losing out to a team of way more powerful Pokemon.

 

[Seiterman]

Nominating Krookodile for B- rank

Krookodile was moved from B to C+ just 2 pages ago. I think it was just deemed that his flaws are enough to keep him from staying that high up (and that he was a little overhyped,) but at the moment I can't find the explanation I'm thinking of. So yeah. =P

Sorry, I guess my post may have come across as rude. I like to use obscure Pokemon as well sometimes just to mix things up.

Although, I usually like heading down into lower tiers to use the Pokemon that aren't viable in OU. For example, one of my favorite Pokemon is Sceptile, but I'm waiting for RU to open up before I use him. It's just kind of frustrating using him in OU and losing out to a team of way more powerful Pokemon.

I think you're still missing the point. Pokemon that just aren't OU viable aren't listed at all. On most teams D Rank Pokemon won't be good choices, but the prerequisite for D Rank is simply having a decent niche in the current metagame (even if it's a small niche and it comes with severe flaws.) What constitutes a "decent niche," is definitely debatable (Mr Mime gets by on his Baton Pass niche, which is a niche for an uncommon, mostly ineffective team archtype.)

Let's put it this way; "viable," and "good," are separate terms. Mr Mime isn't "good," but he's "viable." There are Pokemon that fit both categories (the higher ranks,) Pokemon that are only "viable," (Weezing, Donphan, etc.) and Pokemon that are neither (Luvdisc and friends.)

I'm not trying to sound rude either, I just wanna try to clear things up.

 

[Vert]

Shroomisaur
Sharpedo's frailty is nothing when you see its blazing fast speed. Despite its crappy bulk, it can take an uninvested attack from walls like Skarmory with 152 HP EVs since 108 Spe is all it needs to be a threat at +1 and +2. Despite its low BP moves, 120 Base Attack along with Life Orb compensates this, and one fact you're forgetting: Sharpedo only comes out late-game. This means it can pretty much OHKO that weaken for it to sweep. Also, it got Destiny Bond this generation meaning it fits great in sweeper cores like Sharpedo + SD Garchomp (aka Shark Attack: my next RMT) and despite not being able to switch in, it has a nice Psychic-type immunity meaning it can switch onto Alakazam and Deoxys-S for example (don't forget about things like MCham Zen Headbutt!) and its bulk, while crappy can take resisted hits like Scizor's Bullet Punch, so its only true weakness late-game is Conkeldurr and Talonflame. It can play around Aegislash easily, which is a huge threat to many teams. Crunch is a much more powerful weapon this generation due to the Steel-type nerf meaning things like Jirachi, Metagross, Empoleon, and Ferrothorn who were once amazing Sharpedo counters are not safe from the predator. Sharpedo actually got better this generation with no drawbacks, but the prevalence of Talonflame is preventing it from reaching B+ Rank. By the way, alexwolf I nominated Sharpedo for solid B Rank, not B- because Sharpedo hasn't changed and only improved, so if it was B last generation, it is B this generation as well and Talonflame and Azumarill is the only thing stopping it from gaining rank, so it needs to stay B Rank.

Tornadus-T...
Do you people have something against Tornadus-T in A- Rank? All of the past damn post have been really crappy against it being A- Rank and I have gone through countless posts and I've seen a measly solid B Rank to it. It is that good. Tornadus-T is A- Rank / B+ if you want to go there. I have posted a lot about it a while back, so please look at my explanations.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

Krookodile was moved from B to C+ just 2 pages ago. I think it was just deemed that his flaws are enough to keep him from staying that high up (and that he was a little overhyped,) but at the moment I can't find the explanation I'm thinking of. So yeah. =P

I know it did just drop I just thought c+ was selling it a bit short.

also mega lucario and genesect need to be removed from the thread now that they are banned.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

How exactly did sharpedo benefited from the steel nerf at all? Excadrill? Weak to water. Lucario? Still resists dark. Ferrothorn? Still walls you. Skarmory? Takes the same damage from both stabs. Bisharp? Still resists dark. Aegislash? 50/50 on king's shield mindgames (actually not even that since crunch doenst ohko aegislash anyway). In BW sharpedo was decent because of perma rain that gave it a choice band boost for its water stab and thats what it used to clean shit. Now it can no longer count on it making it a LOT easier to wall. It has also received a new weakness with the fairy typing and a new counter in water/fairy azumarill. Its a lot worse now than before and while i am not going to be taking sides for this pokemon in particular youre really overselling it.