An actually competent player who sees "Pinsir breaks the mold" will recognize that their opponent specifically selected Mold Breaker in order to have the opportunity to use EQ to hit a foe with Levitate on the first turn instead of Mega Evolving, and in particular probably had Rotom-W in mind.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
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The point of mold breaker is that it prevents rotom (all rotoms for that matter) from coming in, period. It doesnt matter whether you see the message or not, its not about being a surprise, its about the fact it allows pinsir to ohko its most common check after a single boost.
But then again SmashBro, Base Pinsir is a NU mon in an OU Environment that has a set filled with moves it doesn't gain STAB on. Pinsir won't be damaging much if he doesn't mega evolve and he's not that hard to heavily damage with neutral moves due to being weak on the special side.
Moxie is a bad idea, as you should not be trying to sweep and get boosts with base Pinsir (at least I don't...), hyper cutter is helpful in some circumstances i suppose. But mold breaker actually has a purpose. IMO all Pinsirs should say "Pinsir breaks the mold", as mold breaker is the best ability it can have.
But what about Landorus-T? Who is nearly as dangerous to Pinsir as Rotom-W is? You can actually get a crucial swords dance boost by baiting the Landorus-T switch-in with Hyper Cutter.
What is this even supposed to mean, pinsir is a top tier threat in ou BECAUSE it doesnt have to start the battle transformed with a shitty bug/flying type. Theres absolutely no reason to mega evolve until you are ready to sweep because the mega form is the actual defensive liability here. 4x weakness to stealth rock and weakness to boltbeam coupled with the inability to ohko rotom makes not-mega-evolving the preferred choice for most of the match.
It sorta sounds like you're saying that Base Pinsir is some sort of offensive pivot with his bug typing which I don't agree with. In my opinion, I find standard Pinsir to be the liability because of frailty and slowness. But as I said before, to each his own opinion and such.
The bottom line with Mold Breaker is that it causes problems for Rotom-- which would otherwise be a completely fearless switch-in. Of course there's still the prediction, and whether you should click "Return" or "Earthquake" (or even SD), and whether you should Mega Evolve or not, it all depends on the situation. The point is that instead of the opponent having a full switch, now he has a prediction battle that he could very realistically lose (and in general is pretty disadvantageous). Mold Breaker causes REAL problems for the opponent in dealing with Pinsir, where as Moxie is useful once in a blue moon.
And, in a slight continuation, Moldy Pinsir does cause some good mind games.
Umm I don't think I ever mentioned that I use Moxie lol. I actually use Hyper Cutter because I fear Landorus-T more than Rotom-W who is shut down by Spec.Def Assault Vest Conkeldurr on my team. Anyway, I think Hyper Cutter and Mold Breaker both have benefits and disadvantages because they both mean not being able to check one crucial mon. However, I'm going to drop this conversation because it's been dragged on for awhile now.
Cya around!
Cya around!
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Okay so I see a lot off arguments against Rotom-W and why it shouldn't be S material, but i'm also noticing that you guys just want to point out it's weaknesses and that other mons can act just as good as a pivot as Rotom-W, and that Mold Breaker Pinsir shits on it, which I have to say depends on the situation and skill of the player. Anyway I do get why people are argumenting against it beeing S tier, but listen to this. Rotom-W just works extremely well in the meta right now mostly because it can basically wall stuff like Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Tyranitar etc. While also it can create momentum with Volt Switch, you guys are saying that it's weak, but that doesn't matter because we all know what people want to switch into it, stuff it can't hurt which is basically NOTHING guys... It has an amazing dual type which actually lets it deal with annoying stuff like Gliscor, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Excadrill and Hippowdon and they are all scared off will-o-wisp and hydro pump, next up is stuff like Mega Venusaur and Aegislash which Rotom hits with Volt Switch and will-o-wisp, no matter what you do against Rotom-W you will always have to predict even tho you know it's set, and that is why it's so versatile and good guys, and why it's good at creating and keeping up momentum. All of this is pretty great and making it top tier, but what that is really making it going S tier is just how the metagame has shifted, it's just Rotom-W's time to shine, just like Mega Venusaur before the Lucarionite + Gene ban. It's just so easy to slap Rotom-W on a team now because theres no risk at using it all, and if you guys have read the S tier requirements, you already know that the "no risk at all" is basically what defines an S tier pokemon.
This is the main thing I agree with out of this post - I can't think of a single other Poke that can be stuck on almost every team in pretty much any playstyle and succeed. It never, ever needs support and it rarely ever requires adjustments to the rest of your team to fit unless somehow you have a massive Grass weakness. It does what it's supposed to do regardless of what the rest of your team is doing, and that kind of "throw it on any team and watch it succeed" usability seems perfect for S-Rank. Maybe we need to break down the roles into offensive, defensive and supportive, because the last two often get lumped together when they can be completely different.
BROStime , just saying, there is always some sort of risk in using a Pokemon, even Rotom-W (usually in the form of specially offensive Dragons, or perhaps Excadrill). Rotom-W, in terms of definition, is honestly just teetering back and forth between the edges of A+ and S.
Ryolain , a good example of the difference between defensive and supportive characteristics would be Deoxys-D and Goodra. Deoxys-D's defensive typing is pretty horrid, resisting only a few types while being weak to relevant & common attacking types, meaning it cannot be used effectively as a wall, but it does have a movepool mostly tailored for supporting its teammates. Goodra is the inverse: it doesn't have a varied supporting movepool, but it does have the typing and bulk to take on the various special attackers of the tier. Usually defensive Pokemon just happen to sport a good support movepool, so it can be easy to get confused between the two.
I totally agree and understand what you're saying - I know the difference between the two, I'm saying other people don't seem to. Rotom-W is getting discussed like it's a wall, which it isn't. It seems a lot of the viability discussion has been split into offensively ranked (kills everything) or defensively ranked (walls everything) and if something doesn't do either of those two things, it's a knock against its viability even though being supportively ranked is an equally critical part of the metagame. Basically what I'm saying is the second half of this sentence from the S-Rank description feels like it's getting ignored:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns").
What free turns is Rotom-W giving up? What are you losing on your team when you make a slot for Rotom-W to go there? I see basically no opportunity cost for adding Rotom-W to your team, nor for playing him in battle. Physical attackers are going to feel very uncomfortable trying to set up on him with WoW basically omnipresent. There aren't many common specially based threats (especially with Luc and Genesect gone) and the worst ones, Kyu-B and ZardY, are hailed for their ability as wallbreakers. No shit they're gonna set up on a non-offensive Poke, but I don't think their mere existence knocks every wall and support Poke down a rank. And half the time Rotom-W's just gonna be Volt Switching out immediately, actually gaining you massive opportunity rather than costing.
One final thing - I really don't see lack of recovery as a problem because again, it doesn't fit its role as a supportive Poke (not a defensive one!). It's not supposed to sit there and absorb hits all day, it's supposed to check one of the 900 things it checks and then get the hell out of there so you can keep your momentum. I've never found ChestoRest unsuitable for giving me a couple extra switch-ins, which is really all you need in most battles.
EDIT: Somehow I completely forgot ZardY when referring to special attackers…fixed.
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Well i'm done discussing Rotom-W, because we should all get it by now and I guess we have to agree to disagree. But we all have to understand that there will always be something to deal something else this is common sense, if we all should just talk about certain weaknesses on a pokemon all pokemon could be bad, please come on. We need to focus on their usefullness in the meta, we all know that no pokemon is perfect so there is basically no need to discuss that that pokemon shits on that pokemon, because theres a reason to why there is 6 pokemon on a team and not 1, a pokemons uselfullness is based on what it can do, not what it can't do.
How is what a Pokemon is checked/countered by and what it can't do irrelevant to the conversation? That is, in fact, a huge part of what we talk about in this thread.
While it's not important to dwell on a specific check or counter, it is important to point out answers to a Pokemon. If there aren't many things that stop a Pokemon from doing their job, it's better for that reason. The inverse is also true. What a Pokemon cannot do is also important in many contexts. It's just as important as what they can do.
Arguing what beats what and what does what is like 99% of this thread.
But it does have to be relevant to their role. It's very hard to stop Rotom-W from doing what it's supposed to do because 90% of the time all it's doing is Volt Switching away from you, so I guess technically its only "counter" is a Ground type (that risks eating Hydro Pump or getting burned). Yes, there's stuff that kills it, but you can't really discuss its "checks and counters" the same way you would with an offensive or defensive Poke because its goal is neither to kill things or to wall things.
Maybe we should start here: what does everyone view as Rotom-W's goals when it comes into play? From my perspective, the intention is to switch in on something it checks, then either cripple it with WoW if you think it's going to stay in or Volt Switch if you think it's going to switch out. Essentially it's trying to cripple an attacker or scout the opponent in order to gain momentum. What prevents Rotom-W from achieving these goals? Those are its real checks and counters, and I don't think there are really any specific Pokes that can be listed here.
I wonder if people are getting caught up because Rotom-W does happen to check/counter a decent amount of major OU threats, so it seems like it's a defensive Poke. It's really not. Something like Chansey plays extremely differently from Rotom-W.
Why is Thundurus not S? It is an easy panic button with Prankster TWave and great Pinsir/Talonflame offensive check. Its special attacks hit extremely hard, and it has a stellar Attack, too, with the movepool to match, allowing it to go mixed. It has a number of possible movesets, including TWave 3 attacks, Taunt 3 attacks, Taunt TWave, SubTWave, mixed, SubNP, NP 3 attacks, all-out physical, and even Bulk Up.
It has Thunderbolt, HP Ice, and Focus Blast for staple special coverage (as well as Volt Switch). It has Knock Off, Wild Charge, Fly (Power Herb :]), and U-turn physically. It has NP and BU to boost, and two great abilities that give it priority TWave/Sub/Taunt or the ability to take advantage of Defoggers. It's fast, has great typing...what exactly is Thundurus missing? It requires basically no dedicated support, and can perform multiple roles effectively. It is a perfect S Rank.
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I also believe Talonflame should be reconsidered for S. It's just so...good. Sure, it has counters. But, it can sweep large portions of the metagame, and requires Defog or spin for support and minimal counter-slaying things. And Charizard is S. Like look S alone:
I won't go further. But you see, there are some common Talonflame checks/counters. However, many are not difficult to wear down/play around, and checks are (naturally) a one-time deal. Thus, Talonflame can sweep through a significant portion of the metagame. It has a priority 120 BP STAB attack to help it, and most offensive Pokemon lose to it. Talonflame is a remarkable revenge killer and ferocious attacker that is one of the best/most threatening things in OU. Its rank should reflect that.
It has Thunderbolt, HP Ice, and Focus Blast for staple special coverage (as well as Volt Switch). It has Knock Off, Wild Charge, Fly (Power Herb :]), and U-turn physically. It has NP and BU to boost, and two great abilities that give it priority TWave/Sub/Taunt or the ability to take advantage of Defoggers. It's fast, has great typing...what exactly is Thundurus missing? It requires basically no dedicated support, and can perform multiple roles effectively. It is a perfect S Rank.
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I also believe Talonflame should be reconsidered for S. It's just so...good. Sure, it has counters. But, it can sweep large portions of the metagame, and requires Defog or spin for support and minimal counter-slaying things. And Charizard is S. Like look S alone:
Aegislash - murdered by Flare Blitz
Mega Charizard X - can take a BB, but loses 70% to do so...net loss because it is put in other prio range, easy
Mega Charizard Y - Brave Bird
Mega Pinsir - Brave Bird
Mega Venusaur - Brave Bird
All of S is troubled by Talonflame. A+ I'll shorten:
Dies to Brave Bird: Deoxys-S
Dies to Brave Bird if slightly weakened: Landorus-I, Kyurem-B
Can take a Brave Bird once, somewhat comfortably: Garchomp, Manaphy, Thundurus,
Dies to Flare Blitz: Thundurus
Can take Brave Bird okay, but easily worn down by taking even two: Landorus-T
Thus,
Offensive Checks: Thundurus, Garchomp (Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin)
Defensive Checks: Landorus-T
Counters: Rotom-W, Heatran
Thund can only switch in once, as can Chomp (though recoil is worth it). Landorus-T is easily worn into KO range. Rotom-W counters, but is easy to wear down with U-turn + SR and eventually take down. Heatran counters, and isn't that easy to wear down. A+ yields one Pokemon Talonflame won't take out alone, one Pokemon that counters but can be worn down, one Pokemon that can't switch in consistently, and one offensive check...then three revenge killers. So basically, 4/9 (excluding Talonflame itself) in A+ can handle Talonflame, with varying degrees of reliability and effectiveness. Now A:
Can take one Brave Bird and KO back (revenge kill): Azumarill, Terrakion, Latias, Dragonite (w/ Multiscale), Gyarados, Bisharp, Excadrill
Of those, die to Flare Blitz (+ others): Bisharp, Excadrill, Mawile, Scizor
Die to Brave Bird: Keldeo, Latios, Greninja
Thus,
Shaky Offensive Checks (can't switch in): Azumarill, Latias, Terrakion, Bisharp, Excadrill, Scizor
Offensive Checks: Gyarados, Dragonite
Defensive Checks: Mandibuzz
Counters: Tyranitar
We have four things that can handle Talonflame, and some things that can switch in and force it out after a sac. Tyranitar is boned by U-turns. Mandibuzz is limited by SR, as are Gyarados and Dragonite.
Mega Charizard X - can take a BB, but loses 70% to do so...net loss because it is put in other prio range, easy
Mega Charizard Y - Brave Bird
Mega Pinsir - Brave Bird
Mega Venusaur - Brave Bird
All of S is troubled by Talonflame. A+ I'll shorten:
Dies to Brave Bird: Deoxys-S
Dies to Brave Bird if slightly weakened: Landorus-I, Kyurem-B
Can take a Brave Bird once, somewhat comfortably: Garchomp, Manaphy, Thundurus,
Dies to Flare Blitz: Thundurus
Can take Brave Bird okay, but easily worn down by taking even two: Landorus-T
Thus,
Offensive Checks: Thundurus, Garchomp (Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin)
Defensive Checks: Landorus-T
Counters: Rotom-W, Heatran
Thund can only switch in once, as can Chomp (though recoil is worth it). Landorus-T is easily worn into KO range. Rotom-W counters, but is easy to wear down with U-turn + SR and eventually take down. Heatran counters, and isn't that easy to wear down. A+ yields one Pokemon Talonflame won't take out alone, one Pokemon that counters but can be worn down, one Pokemon that can't switch in consistently, and one offensive check...then three revenge killers. So basically, 4/9 (excluding Talonflame itself) in A+ can handle Talonflame, with varying degrees of reliability and effectiveness. Now A:
Can take one Brave Bird and KO back (revenge kill): Azumarill, Terrakion, Latias, Dragonite (w/ Multiscale), Gyarados, Bisharp, Excadrill
Of those, die to Flare Blitz (+ others): Bisharp, Excadrill, Mawile, Scizor
Die to Brave Bird: Keldeo, Latios, Greninja
Thus,
Shaky Offensive Checks (can't switch in): Azumarill, Latias, Terrakion, Bisharp, Excadrill, Scizor
Offensive Checks: Gyarados, Dragonite
Defensive Checks: Mandibuzz
Counters: Tyranitar
We have four things that can handle Talonflame, and some things that can switch in and force it out after a sac. Tyranitar is boned by U-turns. Mandibuzz is limited by SR, as are Gyarados and Dragonite.
Of course it has to be relevant to the role, but what I got from the post I replied to was "we shouldn't discuss counters and checks because what a Pokemon is capable of is what's most important," and "all Pokemon have weaknesses so they're not worth discussing." If that's what I was supposed to take away from that (I'll be totally honest, that post wasn't the most coherent thing I've ever read,) then I could not disagree with the sentiment more.
I agree with you on basically everything you said about Rotom-W, though. The combination of Hydro Pump, Volt Switch and WoW makes switching almost anything into it a rough proposition. In this case, there are answers, but they aren't exactly good. The immediate thing that comes to mind is Gastrodon, who, simply put, isn't having a great time this generation. In terms of more realistic things though, the best way to deal with Rotom-W is passive damage and gradual wear. With unreliable recovery and low base HP, he has a hard time dealing with that. Sandstorm (and hail, I guess,) at the very least negates Leftovers recovery on those variants, and forces ChestoRest Rotom-W to use Rest earlier. He never really likes being Toxic'd or Burned himself, either. As a VoltTurner, he'll be worn down by SR every time he comes in, slowly whittling him away. So, it's less like you need to have an answer to Rotom-W and more that you need to be able to deal with his crap for long enough to bring him into KO range.
That was not what I was saying, read my post again. My point with the post was that going with the same obvious arguments all the time makes no progress at all. We need to see eachothers arguments from eachothers perspective to actually understand eachother instead off bashing eachother with arguments going nowhere, or else we will all disagreee. I'm sorry if my other post was kinda confusing, but it's kinda annoying reading the same arguments over and over again because on everything that is beeing discussed in A and S rank is basically the same, it's like an evil circle. Even tho you disagree with something another person posted try to actually view it from another point, maby it makes more sense to you or you can actually understand the post from the posters view. Anyway ill get done with this before I go to deep lol, but I just want this thread to have more quality posts tho I have to say i'm not the best myself, but i'm trying.
May sound like a stupid question (because I havent read this post for the past week) but is this really just the place to just discuss the S and A ranked pokemon only from now on? :s
I skimmed a bit around the first post to see if anything was edited (and it was but it wasn't really clear what was edited. Probably the ranks or something) in regards to the rules on what to talk about (I'll probably skim it a bit more soon). Kinda hesitant to talk about pory2 or Slowking (believe it or not, slowbro's older cousin gets an OU analysis). :b
I skimmed a bit around the first post to see if anything was edited (and it was but it wasn't really clear what was edited. Probably the ranks or something) in regards to the rules on what to talk about (I'll probably skim it a bit more soon). Kinda hesitant to talk about pory2 or Slowking (believe it or not, slowbro's older cousin gets an OU analysis). :b
There seems to be a lot of discussion about whether Rotom-W is S rank as a defensive threat, a supportive threat, or both.
I think it has been well established that Rotom-W is not S rank solely as a defensive threat.
I do not think that Rotom-W is S rank solely as a supportive threat either. When I think of S rank supportive threats from previous generations, I think of Politoed and Deoxys-S/D. These Pokemon created entire playstyles based around them. Rotom-W is a good supporter, but has nowhere near the impact on the game which these threats had. Therefore, Rotom-W is not S rank as a supporter.
The question then is whether the combination of defensive and supportive ability is enough to make it S rank. I'd say not. Rotom-W provides free turns for Kyurem-B, Mega Charizard X with Roost, Deoxys-D, Lati@s (Defog), and most of everything else with decent special bulk. Because of this, there are reasons not to just slap Rotom-W on any team, and these are notable drawbacks to using Rotom-W. Both Charizard forms, Mega Pinsir, and Aegislash do not provide these setup opportunities because you have to focus on killing them before they kill you. That is why they are S-rank. Rotom-W is just not good enough to be the focal point of your team; it is not a win condition and it is not a priority for the opponent to kill since most teams will likely have multiple checks and counters for Rotom-W without even trying. This is what separates Rotom-W from the S rank. It does a lot of things well, but it doesn't do much really well and it has notable flaws which the opponent can really take advantage of.
I think it has been well established that Rotom-W is not S rank solely as a defensive threat.
I do not think that Rotom-W is S rank solely as a supportive threat either. When I think of S rank supportive threats from previous generations, I think of Politoed and Deoxys-S/D. These Pokemon created entire playstyles based around them. Rotom-W is a good supporter, but has nowhere near the impact on the game which these threats had. Therefore, Rotom-W is not S rank as a supporter.
The question then is whether the combination of defensive and supportive ability is enough to make it S rank. I'd say not. Rotom-W provides free turns for Kyurem-B, Mega Charizard X with Roost, Deoxys-D, Lati@s (Defog), and most of everything else with decent special bulk. Because of this, there are reasons not to just slap Rotom-W on any team, and these are notable drawbacks to using Rotom-W. Both Charizard forms, Mega Pinsir, and Aegislash do not provide these setup opportunities because you have to focus on killing them before they kill you. That is why they are S-rank. Rotom-W is just not good enough to be the focal point of your team; it is not a win condition and it is not a priority for the opponent to kill since most teams will likely have multiple checks and counters for Rotom-W without even trying. This is what separates Rotom-W from the S rank. It does a lot of things well, but it doesn't do much really well and it has notable flaws which the opponent can really take advantage of.
Oh, no no no. We're just discussing what should be S and A rank now that a significant Metagame shift has occurred in the form of Lucarionite and Genesect's bans, we'll get to B Rank and such later down the line, but right now the discussion is about S and A.
How in any way does Pinsir shit on Rotom-W?
252 Atk Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsir: 165-195 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or even just Will-O-Wisp. A better idea is just switching, as Pinsir isn't even going to break through Rotom-W unless Rotom-W switches into it, while this is a good lure, it isn't always reliable. I as well find Landorus-T more threatening to it, that's why I prefer Hyper Cutter, even though
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 406-478 (106.2 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But I'd rather not take Intimidate.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsir: 165-195 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or even just Will-O-Wisp. A better idea is just switching, as Pinsir isn't even going to break through Rotom-W unless Rotom-W switches into it, while this is a good lure, it isn't always reliable. I as well find Landorus-T more threatening to it, that's why I prefer Hyper Cutter, even though
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 406-478 (106.2 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
But I'd rather not take Intimidate.
I agree that it's useless to to repeat arguments at each other, though by virtue of this thread being so huge and updating so frequently it's bound to happen. In any case, thank you for clearing up your position. Like I said earlier, I couldn't really understand your other post too well.
Firstly, remember that not all Rotom-W are physically defensive. Specially defensive variants still only take a maximum of about 78% though.
Even though you're not really super-threatening to Rotom-W with that Earthquake, that's still a sizable chunk of its health. Remember that Rotom-W is not hard to wear down, so it's HP is likely not going to be full when you're in this kind of situation. Even if you don't KO it on the switch, you've still maimed it, which can make it much easier to take down later (or could maybe even bring it into Quick Attack's KO range.) Would you bring your Rotom-W in on that? If it isn't absolutely necessary, I would likely not.
That said, I don't think that quite qualifies as "shitting," on Rotom-W. It's still very dicey.
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