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XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
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Making two nominations:
1) Nominating Cobalion for A- Rank:
Cobalion has quite a few roles on a team, either as a Swords Dance Sweeper, A Stealth Rocker, Taunter, In Volt Turn teams, etc. While you might say base 90 attack is a bit low. It still has a lot of traits. It's typing makes it neutral to Psychic, it has base 129 Defense and base 108 Speed. So it's really fast and it is also pretty Physically Bulky. The reason I think it should be nominated for A- is because it can come in on the likes of Umbreon, Chansey and pretty much set up on their face. I particularily use the Swords Dance+ Lum Berry Combination, it gets stuff like Swagger users like annoying ass Liepard and it also helps vs walls that may try to status me like Chansey (if they carry T-Wave), Porygon2, Florges, etc. With Lum it pretty much negates that and lets me get up another Swords Dance, pretty much if you get up 2 SD's, you're gonna sweep with your Cobalion. I personally consider it a pretty damn good underrated pokemon, and it since it's UU , it's not completely overshadowed by Lucario. It's steel typing allows it to hit common Fairy Types like Florges, Gardevoir, Slurpuff, Granbull , etc.
I'll show you guys a few calcs with Cobalion:
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 806-950 (114.4 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 306-360 (67.4 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Cobalion pretty much leaves a mark on any pokemon after a Swords Dance which that, and it pretty good Physically Defensive prowess made me think to dominate it to A- Rank at least.
2) Nominating Chansey for A- Rank:
This might seem weird, but from my experiences with Chansey, sometimes it completed it's role, but most of the time it ended up being total and complete set up fodder. The other thing thing I don't really like about is that it needs Eviolite to work, otherwise it becomes completely useless. And with Knock Off just about being everywhere, this blob really needs to keep the Eviolite or it will be dead-weight. The other thing I don't really like about it is that it is Normal type. Normal Type is bad for Chansey, because most Fighting type moves are Physical and Chansey has super lackluster defense. It will pretty much get forced out and you will grant your opponent a free oportunity to set up like a Swords Dance, A Sub, or a set up move. And also there are a lot of fighting type Pokemon in UU, it kind of makes me avoid using it. Heracross, Mienshao, Hawlucha are all really common and they just shit on Chansey. Also if Chansey comes against a Ghost , it can't do anything about it as it only gets Seismic Toss as it's only attacking move. So that's why I think it should go A-. It's not bad, but it has those issues which keep it from being as effective as it used to be. Chansey would also appreciate Lefties recovery, which it can't get because it is forced to run Eviolite, pretty much.
1) Nominating Cobalion for A- Rank:
Cobalion has quite a few roles on a team, either as a Swords Dance Sweeper, A Stealth Rocker, Taunter, In Volt Turn teams, etc. While you might say base 90 attack is a bit low. It still has a lot of traits. It's typing makes it neutral to Psychic, it has base 129 Defense and base 108 Speed. So it's really fast and it is also pretty Physically Bulky. The reason I think it should be nominated for A- is because it can come in on the likes of Umbreon, Chansey and pretty much set up on their face. I particularily use the Swords Dance+ Lum Berry Combination, it gets stuff like Swagger users like annoying ass Liepard and it also helps vs walls that may try to status me like Chansey (if they carry T-Wave), Porygon2, Florges, etc. With Lum it pretty much negates that and lets me get up another Swords Dance, pretty much if you get up 2 SD's, you're gonna sweep with your Cobalion. I personally consider it a pretty damn good underrated pokemon, and it since it's UU , it's not completely overshadowed by Lucario. It's steel typing allows it to hit common Fairy Types like Florges, Gardevoir, Slurpuff, Granbull , etc.
I'll show you guys a few calcs with Cobalion:
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 806-950 (114.4 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 306-360 (67.4 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Cobalion pretty much leaves a mark on any pokemon after a Swords Dance which that, and it pretty good Physically Defensive prowess made me think to dominate it to A- Rank at least.
2) Nominating Chansey for A- Rank:
This might seem weird, but from my experiences with Chansey, sometimes it completed it's role, but most of the time it ended up being total and complete set up fodder. The other thing thing I don't really like about is that it needs Eviolite to work, otherwise it becomes completely useless. And with Knock Off just about being everywhere, this blob really needs to keep the Eviolite or it will be dead-weight. The other thing I don't really like about it is that it is Normal type. Normal Type is bad for Chansey, because most Fighting type moves are Physical and Chansey has super lackluster defense. It will pretty much get forced out and you will grant your opponent a free oportunity to set up like a Swords Dance, A Sub, or a set up move. And also there are a lot of fighting type Pokemon in UU, it kind of makes me avoid using it. Heracross, Mienshao, Hawlucha are all really common and they just shit on Chansey. Also if Chansey comes against a Ghost , it can't do anything about it as it only gets Seismic Toss as it's only attacking move. So that's why I think it should go A-. It's not bad, but it has those issues which keep it from being as effective as it used to be. Chansey would also appreciate Lefties recovery, which it can't get because it is forced to run Eviolite, pretty much.
I just wanted to clarify that the only reason Articuno is even on the list is because the second ranked player on the ladder is using it. I haven't used it at all, so I can't make a judgement as to how good it is. The fact that it isn't complete dead weight on his team garners at least some consideration to its abysmal rank. Case in point, test before you comment.
Also, if there are anymore posts on fucking Dusknoir/Dusklops, I'm just going to delete them. It really doesn't even matter...
Also, if there are anymore posts on fucking Dusknoir/Dusklops, I'm just going to delete them. It really doesn't even matter...
I guess one of the "buff" given to Articuno this gen is Freeze Dry, which allows him to get pass Water types that would otherwise wall him. A more gimmicky set of Blizzard/Hurricane/Freeze Dry/HP Ground with Gravity support might work... Hmmm
Also with Defog buff Articuno can switch in more easily than it was last gen... So I guess he is more viable somewhat.
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How is Shuckle all the way up in B+? Its whole deal comes down to luck with acupressure. If you use the toxic stall set its easily countered by a substitute.
I can see why Articuno might be considered being used: Dry Freeze. The first time, if you don't know about this move, you get destroyed by its "coverage" moves. Water Pulse and Dry Freeze hit almost anything for neutral damage.
its arguably the most reliable user of sticky web since he usually doesn't die in 2-3 turns
acupressure isn't the selling point of shuckle at all, im pretty sure nobody uses that
acupressure isn't the selling point of shuckle at all, im pretty sure nobody uses that
Shuckle is b+ because it has both sticky web and stealth rock, which no other pokemon in uu have That is about it. It also has pretty good bulk, and sturdy which also helps to set up at least one hazard. Admittedly,particularly with the whole defog thing this niche may not be enough to justify a b+ ranking, but it is what it is, no one really cares about shuckle tbh
Hopping on the Shuckle hype train. It's the only user of Sticky Web in the game that can reliably set it up multiple times in one match. Everything else is horribly frail and your Sticky Web is liable to be Defogged or spun away after your setter is KO'd. Shuckle also has Encore which is pretty much its only recourse against being set-up fodder.
Admittedly I haven't played this UU much but that is what I always saw last gen. But like others have said defog is a good way of getting rid of it. I would move it to C+ or B-
Yeah, Water/Freeze Dry is pretty neat with its unresisted coverage. I did like to note that he also gets Bubble Beam in Gen1 which has 5 more BP, but still a 60/65bp unSTABed move hitting neutrally with no ways to boost is kinda underwhelming. I'd go with STABs + Freeze Dry + Coverage HP, with weather/gravity support it hits a lot of things with SE damage
Bubble Beam is irrelevant because Gen1 and Gen2 only moves are not avaible in gen 3 to 6. In other words, it is not compatible.
I've been playing around a bit in XY UU, and in my opinion, Porygon2 should be more than C. It's a good glue for many teams, being able to check a lot of stuff with its massive bulk, including Flash Fire Chandelure, and is a soft check to anything not a Fighting-type. Porygon2 should be B-rank, as it's not only a defensive tank, but also good at dishing out damage with BoltBeam coverage and decent Special Attack (it can also use Tri Attack as a reliable, high-powered STAB attack).
yeah the thing about last gen is that web doesn't exist, so shuckle pretty much just sits there and does nothing
the defog thing can also be a point in shuckle's favour since you can't just recklessly go suicide lead with leavanny and co anymore when your opponent has a defogger/spinner. shuckle's longevity means that it can still come in and setup web given the opportunity, and he's not very easy to kill without strong SE attacks. stuff like leavanny and ariados die to a breeze.
Derp forgot. Too excited when I noticed that haha. >///<
Anyway, after thinking about it, a rain team to boosted Water Pulse and fire off accurate Hurricane with Freeze Dry coverage is good too...
It's the only pokemon in the game (excluding smeargle, but he's OU) that gets sticky web and stealth rock, and it's bulky enough to set them up.
I pretty much agree with what you said about Cobalion. What I want to add is how it fucks with usual checks to SD fighting types. Its Steel STAB allows it to easily beat Florges and Granbull, the go to fighting counters after Knock Off buff. With lum berry attached, Cofagrigus, Mew and Rotom-N all fail to burn it and are 2HKOed in return. Crobat can't do much to it thanks to its seconary steel tying and great bulk. While it is somewhat weak to comnob regenge killers (Victini, Mienshao, Krookodile), it can really shine against slower teams. A- Rank seems good for it.
However, I really disagree with you on Chansey. In fact, I think it shold rise a rank to A+ as the single best mixed wall bar none.
On Knock Off, there is actually only one common Knock Off user named Empoleon that Chansey is supposed of walling (Chansey is not completely safe from Tornadus-T anyway). Knock Off or not, Chansey is never taking on Crawdaunt or Mienshao or Mega Absol, or else it will be broken even in Ubers lol. In reality, a good stall team wil always have something to take Knock Offs (Mega Aggron, Blastoise etc). Even if its Eviolite is Knocked Off, it is NOT deadweight at all. It can no longer wall physical attackers but its special bulk is just less than Blissey for a tiny bit.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 297-349 (42.1 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 282-334 (40 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 306-361 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 317-374 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
Even the strongest special attackers can't manage to 2HKO itemless Chansey.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 300-355 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 216-255 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 52.7% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 301-355 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
It can still take relatively powerful physical hits as well.
Being a nornal type is not anything bad for something as bulky as Chansey. It never needs resistance to wall virtually every special attacker and many physical attackers reliably. Having only a single weakness is great, even better when fighting is primirily a physical attacking type, making it really hard to break on the special bulk (only NP Togetic breaks it lol). While Fighting types are buffed with Knock Off, they are actually less common than last gen and fighting resists like Cofagrigus, Granbull, Florges, Slowbro all pairs well with Chansey. I personally use physically defensive Doublade with Rest, which walls every fighting type INCLUDING Scrafty to hell and back even with Knock Off with 252+ Knock Off deals 36% max. Chansey really doesn't need much support and the support needed is usually essential for stall already.
Lacking leftovers is quite bad, but its bulk more than compensates for it. Lacking leftovers never stopped Mega Venusaur from being S Rank in UU. Chansey is even harder to wear down thanks to much more reliable recovery and pseudo immunity to status. Lacking leftovers is more or less compensated by its great bulk.
Chansey's assess to Softboiled is also a perk. Unlike Vaporeon and Florges, Chansey is not forced to stay in for 2 turns in order to recover health, potentially giving many sweepees easy set up. With Wish + Softboiled, it can pass huge wishes to teamates while immediately recovering health.
Another thing is that its Wish and cleric support is appreciated by many pokemon that cover up its weakness. Mega Aggron, Doublade, Mega Blastoise are all excellent pokenons that cover up Chansey well but have no recovery and are prone to status. Chansey doesn't really need to be supported specifically. In return, it provides invaluable support to a team to a point that even bulkier offensive teams can possibly fit in it. It is deserving of A- Rank.
JUST DROP CHESNAUGHT ANYWAY
Wait. Smeargle is ou? Is that just because of the lack of tiers or what?
smeargle is currently OU, though its mostly his access to new things. he'll drop probably sometime later this year, when people finally realise he's not really very good and defog still shits over his face.
and yes usage tiers do exist and smeargle currently falls within the cutoff for OU. quite solidly too i might add, so he's not dropping anytime soon (i'd reckon at least a few more months, stuff like starmie and tentacruel will probably make their appearance first before smeargle)
and yes usage tiers do exist and smeargle currently falls within the cutoff for OU. quite solidly too i might add, so he's not dropping anytime soon (i'd reckon at least a few more months, stuff like starmie and tentacruel will probably make their appearance first before smeargle)
Renominating this because everyone was caught up about Dusclops/Dusknoir
Nominating Mega-Blastoise for S-rank:
With it's amazing water/ice/dark/fighting coverage it litteraly hits like 3/4 of the common pokemon for super effective damage. It also just checks so many threads. I made a list of the S and A-rank pokemon and if Mega-Blastoise wins or loses against it if they're both at full health without any stat boosts/drops (note that I'm using the standard 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef Modest Nature Spread for Blastoise, with the moves Ice Beam, Water Pulse/Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse and Aura Sphere).
I know this isn't completely realistic, but it does show us a picture of how good this thing is.
With it's amazing water/ice/dark/fighting coverage it litteraly hits like 3/4 of the common pokemon for super effective damage. It also just checks so many threads. I made a list of the S and A-rank pokemon and if Mega-Blastoise wins or loses against it if they're both at full health without any stat boosts/drops (note that I'm using the standard 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef Modest Nature Spread for Blastoise, with the moves Ice Beam, Water Pulse/Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse and Aura Sphere).
S Rank:
Hawlucha - Wins: HJK does't kill (even at +2 it only has a 18,8% chance to OHKO). Ice Beam OHKO's Hawlucha
Houndoom (Mega) - Wins (except if the sun is up, Houndoom can OHKO Blastoise with Solarbeam then)
Hydreigon 93.8% chance to win if Hydreigon is specs, wins otherwise
Mienshao - 56.3% chance to win if running Water Pulse, 80% chance to win if running Hydro Pump
Slowbro - Wins
Suicune - Loses (Suicune can set up pretty easiliy on it)
A+ Rank
Celebi - 12.5% chance to win if all-out offensive, other wise loses
Chandelure - Wins
Chesnaught - Wins (Wood Hammer doesn't OHKO)
Crawdaunt - Wins
Darmanitan - Wins
Florges - Loses
Keldeo - Loses if Keldeo is specs, otherwise Wins, so it depends
Latias - Wins
Mew - Wins
Victini - Adamant Choice Band has a 50% chance to OHKO with Bolt Strike. Water Pulse has a 81.3% chance to OHKO Victini. Hydro Pump OHKO's Victini. So it really depends on the situation.
Zapdos - Loses
A Rank
Chansey - Loses
Crobat - Wins
Heracross - 98% Chance to lose if Adamant, 80.1% to lose if jolly
Hippowdon - Wins
Jirachi - Wins
Kyurem - Wins
Nidoking - Wins
Reuniclus - Wins
Roserade - Loses
Tornadus-T - Wins
Zygarde - Wins
A- Rank
Absol (Mega) - Wins
Aggron (Mega) - Wins
Azelf - Wins
Empoleon - Wins
Entei - Wins
Haxorus - 87.5% chance to Win
Krookodile - Wins
Machamp - Depends on the hax and set, but probably loses
Magnezone - Wins
Manectric (Mega) - Loses
Metagross - Wins
Nidoqueen - Wins
Shaymin - Loses
Toxicroak - Usually loses
A+ Rank
A Rank
A- Rank
One of the biggest draws to using blastoise is that it's the best offensive spinner out there: it's not /completely/ realistic, rather, it's unrealistic to expect that blastoise will run 4 coverage moves.
Usually Ice Beam is the casualty of placing Rapid Spin on Blastoise, but lately I'm wondering if it's really the best choice. There are times I play Blastoise and I wonder "why the fuck am i running aura sphere this shit doesn't even do anything". Dark Pulse is nearly a must on spinner blastoise as it is the one thing that allows blastoise to even do what he is: an offensive spinner that beats ghosts with ease. After placing the STAB move of choice (between Scald, Water Pulse and Hydro Pump: personally I prefer Scald but eh) and Rapid Spin, you're left with a choice of either Ice Beam or Aura Sphere.
Basically, a TLDR: Mega Blastoise isn't running 4 offensive coverage moves simultenously, so it's impossible that he will have a positive matchup against everything (for example, Crawdaunt and Kyurem laugh at his face if you don't run Aura Sphere, but Ice Beam is needed to beat Hawlucha and Zygarde)
That said, I feel he's perfectly fine where he is at A+, mostly because the most useful Blastoise set (spinner) cannot run 4 offensive moves.
now to wait for some (BAN ME PLEASE) to nitpick that rapid spin is actually an attack
Usually Ice Beam is the casualty of placing Rapid Spin on Blastoise, but lately I'm wondering if it's really the best choice. There are times I play Blastoise and I wonder "why the fuck am i running aura sphere this shit doesn't even do anything". Dark Pulse is nearly a must on spinner blastoise as it is the one thing that allows blastoise to even do what he is: an offensive spinner that beats ghosts with ease. After placing the STAB move of choice (between Scald, Water Pulse and Hydro Pump: personally I prefer Scald but eh) and Rapid Spin, you're left with a choice of either Ice Beam or Aura Sphere.
Basically, a TLDR: Mega Blastoise isn't running 4 offensive coverage moves simultenously, so it's impossible that he will have a positive matchup against everything (for example, Crawdaunt and Kyurem laugh at his face if you don't run Aura Sphere, but Ice Beam is needed to beat Hawlucha and Zygarde)
That said, I feel he's perfectly fine where he is at A+, mostly because the most useful Blastoise set (spinner) cannot run 4 offensive moves.
Mega Blastoise is something that beats most of the tier one on one, but can't usually do anything more than that. Being primarily a spinner, Blastoise often has to switch into hazards since it cannot directly switch into many hazard setters (Roserade, Chesnaught, Offensive SR Empoleon). Blastoise is extremely easy to wear down especially when lacking even leftovers.
Mega Blastoise is not even a foolproof spinner as everyone thinks. Even Chandelure can block its spin with (mad) prediction. When Chandelure is on the field against Blastoise, Blastoise is not going to spin regardless as even Timid Scarf Energy ball deals 52% min, leaving it OHKOed by everything when coupled with hazards damage. Mega Blastoise will need to switch out on this case if it wants to spin, which is more and more difficult as hazard damage racks up. I am not saying that Blastoise is unreliable spinner as it can successfully spin in majority cases. However sometimes its poor survibility may hinder it from accomplishing its task.
When talking Mega Blastoise as an offensive tank, it is good that it can beat most of the tier one on one. However, the key words here are 'one on one'. Mega Blastoise's speed is quite low and cannot afford to invest on it. Usually it needs to take a hit before returning an OHKO, costing it at least 50% health in the process including SR damage (you are not supposed to have no hazard damage when you are a spinner). This is when Blastoise's low survivability and speed plays its role, limiting Blastoise's opportunity to come in and do anything again to nearly zero except after a sac. Against stall teams, Mega Blastoise is obviously not doing anything meaningful against the common special walls.
Mega Blastoise is a great pokemon and the most reliable spinner. However, it is better in theory than in practice, where it is worn down really quick. Mega Blastoise is better in A+.
Mega Blastoise is not even a foolproof spinner as everyone thinks. Even Chandelure can block its spin with (mad) prediction. When Chandelure is on the field against Blastoise, Blastoise is not going to spin regardless as even Timid Scarf Energy ball deals 52% min, leaving it OHKOed by everything when coupled with hazards damage. Mega Blastoise will need to switch out on this case if it wants to spin, which is more and more difficult as hazard damage racks up. I am not saying that Blastoise is unreliable spinner as it can successfully spin in majority cases. However sometimes its poor survibility may hinder it from accomplishing its task.
When talking Mega Blastoise as an offensive tank, it is good that it can beat most of the tier one on one. However, the key words here are 'one on one'. Mega Blastoise's speed is quite low and cannot afford to invest on it. Usually it needs to take a hit before returning an OHKO, costing it at least 50% health in the process including SR damage (you are not supposed to have no hazard damage when you are a spinner). This is when Blastoise's low survivability and speed plays its role, limiting Blastoise's opportunity to come in and do anything again to nearly zero except after a sac. Against stall teams, Mega Blastoise is obviously not doing anything meaningful against the common special walls.
Mega Blastoise is a great pokemon and the most reliable spinner. However, it is better in theory than in practice, where it is worn down really quick. Mega Blastoise is better in A+.
so there's other things to look at:
ninjask - how effective is CB infiltrator? base 90 atk is hardly impressive and ninjask has pretty weak STABs too. i guess u-turn might be interesting, but 4x SR weakness is still a major bitch to work around.
mega aero - hits like a truck and with an efficient EV spread has decent enough bulk too. i'm probably just going to steal posts from the mevo thread because /lazy/. this post by pipotchi is pretty good imo http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mega-evolutions-in-xy-uu.3500560/#post-5259278
Not sure how I missed this before, but nominating Jellicent for A-rank. It's a solid defensive mon, is a great check to threatening mons in the meta such as Keldeo and Darmanitan, and can even use support moves such as Taunt and Will-O-Wisp to incapacitate switch-ins. Spinblocking isn't nearly as important in this meta as it was in BW UU, but Jellicent can still do well versus Mega Blastoise. It can also stop Calm Mind users such as Crocune and CM Slowbro; not necessarily beat them, but it can Taunt them and then go to an appropriate switch-in, most likely forcing out the Pokemon in question. Will-O-Wisp can also cripple attackers such as Crawdaunt, Haxorus, etc that might try to switch in on it, as it can check a wide variety of special attackers due to its good typing. A or A- should be fine for it, in my opinion.
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