Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Salemance]

I agree with the idea of Conk going down to A-, and will just say that, while he is the perfect example of a poke that is able to conquer its abysmal speed, he sadly is able to be destroyed by too many things as of late (mainly the fact that his usually double tactic is walled by Fairies usually meaning Ice Punch spam while most Psychics usually ran Psyshock any way). So A- Rank is fitting for such a crazy guy.

Gyarados has always been one of those premier Pokémon conquering a x4 weakness with utility and his strength. Him getting demoted makes a little sense, as he has to work with slightly sub par Base power on his STAB (notice I said STAB, not STABs. His Secondary typing rarely gives him something as Bounce was good, but in Megados, he rarely if ever runs a dark type move) usually makes his Base attack stat seem a little lesser. He is still a great attacker, just sometimes seems to be lesser than what he once was.

Then you factor in his Mega Form, which utilizes a few cool things (MB is a god send, allowing him to do so much) but I don't know if that alone is able to keep him A Rank. I want to say stay where he is, but maybe A- is more fitting.

 

[Ropeburn]

Here are my thoughts:

-->A+

I've been experimenting with this pokemon recently, and I prefer it to Deoxys-S as my hazard setter of choice. It takes hits extremely well, and is one of the best hazard setters in the game, and is a fantastic support pokemon. Red Card, T-wave, Stealth Rock is a deadly combination.

-->A+

Dragonite is fantastic. With defog being so widely distributed, and Weakness Policy, I don't see why this isn't already A+. The Choice Band set tears holes in HO, and he's most likely the best DD user in the whole tier. In fact, I'd even say that the presence of fairies has made his life much easier because no one expects to get 2HKO'd by Outrage anymore so they don't have the tools to respond.

-->A-

While Keldeo is still a fantastic pokemon, I feel as if he's not what he was last gen. He has difficulty dealing with the S tier pokemon, and Talonflame hurts him as well. Fighting type is much more of a liability than it was last gen, and Keldeo is feeling that now. It definitely deserves A-, though, since its Choice Specs set hits so hard.

 

[Wobbyble]

Ropeburn, Dragonite is pretty consistent, I peaked 1950 with a 60-8 record using Choice Band Dragonite in every game. It's very consistent in taking a dump on Talonflame with any residual damage or any frail mon for that matter, surprise killing with immediate +1 Outrages, and cleaning up late game. It forces a lot of things to eat Outrages because switching out gives Dragonite a free possible Dragon Dance (example, Outraging a Conkeldurr). Outrage is a guaranteed OHKO on specially defensive Rotom-W, 2HKO Landorus with Stealth Rocks through Intimidate and Leftovers, and 2HKO Scizor evolving into Mega Scizor with SR. Dragonite provides an easy and safe way to revenge many frail mons and set up sweepers and providing a good way to break through walls. Many players are unprepared for Banded Dragonite, both mentally and in their team building, and definitely should be A+ rank as Chou Toshio said.

I'm sure WP and Lum DDance are good as well, I just haven't really used them at all this gen lol

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Dragonite: A ---> A-

I believe that the others are overstating Dragonite's usefulness. It only has two threatening sets: Dragon Dance and Choice Band.

The most unpredictable thing about it (as a Dragon Dancer) is whether it's running Lum Berry or Weakness Policy, and every good team is capable of dealing with both. While some Dragon Dance sets may be threatening to some teams, it has a set of counters depending on what it's running - and Pokemon that counter it no matter what. It's just too unreliable.

Dragonite is a strong and threatening Choice Band user that is capable of cleaning late-game, no doubt, but it's over reliant on Outrage, because of it's lack of other usable STAB - a move that locks Dragonite in and makes it prone to being revenge killed.

The only Pokemon A rank and higher that commonly uses Choice is Azumarill, and for good reason.

Dragonite is just not nearly as abusable. It's inconsistent.

Um, I realize that you're probably referring to CB with that last line, but DD Dragonite is the most consistent set up sweeper there is. With Multiscale, only things like Greninja and Kyurem-B can OHKO, so it almost always gets a DD off if that's what you want. Sure it has trouble of being revenge killed by things like mamoswine, Talonflame, and scarfchomp, but what doesn't worry about revenge killers?

As for the CB, Outrage absolutely murders the metagame, end of story. I haven't had any more trouble being revenge killed than I have with say, scarfchomp. As a late game sweeper and revenge killer, CB is one of the best

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Conk seems to be A.

While Drain Punch has low base power, it makes it up through healing. The health that Conkeldurr takes from Drain Punch is more valuable in this Gen due to its Assault Vest. Knock Off is an excellent utility move that punishes most non-mega switch-ins (Weakness Policy Aegislash is debatable if it is "punished").

Moreover, it has a niche of being a physical attacker, without a Stealth Rock weakness (as fire is weak to Rock), that is immune to burns and does not fear Rotom-W or Sableye.

---

How effective is CB Dragonite against stall teams?

It definitely is a nice anti-meta choice (against non-stall teams) as most people do not expect Outrage spam, and it is "faster" since it does not have to use a turn to Dragon Dance. Most people's tactics against Dragonite involve breaking the Multiscale and statusing (usually Burning which would also break Multiscale) it so Weakness Policy would not be activated.

 

[Grey Knight]

Well there is that one pokemon that i really don't think that belongs in A category is Gengar, and i know i am going to get bombarded by a crap load of haters and funboys (gengar has a big funboy base) but i am posting it anyway

Gengar lost a lot and gained little over the transition to X/Y, its role as a offensive spin blocker has greatly deteriorated, the main reasons for that is, first the inception of many new spin blockers this gen that compete for the spin blocking team slot , although not all of them are better than gengar the big amount of them and the team building variety that provide puts a lot of weight in gengars shoulders , he is no longer that must have for every offensive hazard relied team , secondly the fallen escadrill , note that this guy is the most popular spinner right now and the guy that gengar has to face in many spin blocking wars, well gengar totally fails to spin block effectively , and i see many gengar users trying to play around this major issue with interesting set variations like WoW gengar but still nothing changes the fact that earthquake will 1hko it through levitate because of mold breaker, third and most important reason is the general demise of the spin blocking/spinning element that characterized a big part of the last OU, that's partly derived from the second point but mostly from the inception of defog , none can deny it really unless hes totally quagsire on whats going on in the meta right now.

Now i know what you might be thinking , spin blocking was one of the main reasons that people used it BUT its not the only one , there are other things like his offensive capabilities that made and keep making one of the greatest ou mons , but is those attributes good enough to reserve it a place to A lets see :

pokemon that the typical most used offensive all attacker set actually beats , sorry i cant make a list for every trollish or not variation of gengar set this will take a lot of time , plus i don't think that a 10 page post is possible in xenoforo

the main set , small variations like thunderbolt will be included .

im gonna use logic mathematics , cuz mathematics are simple , beautiful and easily understandable

Hide

Fails
(Gengar gets 2 consecutive focus blast hits [49%])ν(Gengar survives 2 lava plumes [0%])
-->Gengar wins
(nothing of the two happens most of the time so it losses , subsitube )

Fails
¬(Talon is banded or with life or with sharp beak [51%])Λ(gengar somehow outspeeds and is not koed by brave bird [0%])-->Gengar wins

nothing of the two is happening any time soon

Kills
[(gengar kills with two moves its [over 50%] )ν(It has thunder bolt [20%])]Λ(it takes a hit from manaphy [100%])-> GW

it wins , but its pyrrhic victory really ,yes i included the poison chance over 2 turns of sludge bombs, that's why the its over 50%

Fails

¬(aegis has shadow sneak [88%])ν¬(aegis kills with one boosted shadow sneak [71%])
-->gengar wins

yes people that use boosting item (spooky plate ,LO ) is included , gengar loses the vast majority of the time , the substitute-king shield games are too complicated to analyse ,

Fails
(Charizard has fire blast [40% rough estimation])Λ(Gengar gets a fire blast miss against a fire blast over 5 uses of substitute [56%] )Λ(gengar kills with two sludge bombs [60% approx])--> gw

gengar loses , the chance for all those to happen is bad


now time for some much more simple match ups

Fails
one hit and its down ,
nothing kos back even after fb recoil

Fails
i calculated , too bored to write it , the thing is gengar wont get 2 consecutive focus blast not that it can take a hit in the first place

Fails
the same with charizard , even thunder bolt wont ko

Fails
knock off destroys, assault vest provides

Fails
not much to say , dark pulse is used 75% of the time

Fails
it takes a focus blast and thats without even getting on the bulkier ones

ok i think that's enough , from a quick look to the rest of the mons in the list , it seems that gengar is capable of killing/sweeping less than 80-90% of the S to -A pokemon , and just in case you wonder that's nothing compared to other sweepers like talon and terrakion

team support capabilities like confu haxing outrage locked pokemon , sub disabling , crippling with WoW trolling with destiny bond and hypnosis or even sub split have greatly declined as shown by usage statistics and other things.

(pls don't bombard me with post like , the list is wrong because the x pokemon loses to the x rarely used situational move example hypnosis against every pokemon that outspeeds note that even that wont change much ,chance of hypnosis and chance of the sleeping pokemon to not wake up next turn is lower than 50% )

even a simple variation of lo over black sludge actually doesn't help gengar on many match ups , it will win some more but it also lose about as many or even more because of lo recoil.

another s storm of a replay

i am personally going to replay this s when i find time, because we have to respect the current conversation .

 

[LoDart210]

I agree with the idea of Conk going down to A-, and will just say that, while he is the perfect example of a poke that is able to conquer its abysmal speed, he sadly is able to be destroyed by too many things as of late (mainly the fact that his usually double tactic is walled by Fairies usually meaning Ice Punch spam while most Psychics usually ran Psyshock any way). So A- Rank is fitting for such a crazy guy.

Gyarados has always been one of those premier Pokémon conquering a x4 weakness with utility and his strength. Him getting demoted makes a little sense, as he has to work with slightly sub par Base power on his STAB (notice I said STAB, not STABs. His Secondary typing rarely gives him something as Bounce was good, but in Megados, he rarely if ever runs a dark type move) usually makes his Base attack stat seem a little lesser. He is still a great attacker, just sometimes seems to be lesser than what he once was.

Then you factor in his Mega Form, which utilizes a few cool things (MB is a god send, allowing him to do so much) but I don't know if that alone is able to keep him A Rank. I want to say stay where he is, but maybe A- is more fitting.

I dunno, the ability to beat dragonite and mega venusaur with ice fang, rotom gengar and other levitaters with earthquake, not having to worry about storm drain and water absorb and the bulk to take super effective hits makes mega gyarados an amazing Pokemon, especially since he can utilize base gyarados' intimidate and moxie.

While I agree base gyarados should drop to A- (he should stay A range because of his variety of threats and great synergy and bounce STAB) mega gyarados should move up to A+

 

[Salemance]

I dunno, the ability to beat dragonite and mega venusaur with ice fang, rotom gengar and other levitaters with earthquake, not having to worry about storm drain and water absorb and the bulk to take super effective hits makes mega gyarados an amazing Pokemon, especially since he can utilize base gyarados' intimidate and moxie.

While I agree base gyarados should drop to A- (he should stay A range because of his variety of threats and great synergy and bounce STAB) mega gyarados should move up to A+

Hence why I said the idea of him dropping is unlikely just due to the fact he has his Mega Form to abuse. You listed a few great examples as to why, but as I said, its a weird slope for him as he has great uses. A rank may be best as it is almost a median between the two.

 

[Colonial]

I dunno, the ability to beat dragonite and mega venusaur with ice fang, rotom gengar and other levitaters with earthquake, not having to worry about storm drain and water absorb and the bulk to take super effective hits makes mega gyarados an amazing Pokemon, especially since he can utilize base gyarados' intimidate and moxie.

While I agree base gyarados should drop to A- (he should stay A range because of his variety of threats and great synergy and bounce STAB) mega gyarados should move up to A+

*ahem* Mega Gyarados cannot reliably beat physically defensive Mega Venusaur under many conditions, even with Mold Breaker. Dat 65 Base Power.

Mega Gyarados is still easily an A Rank threat of course, great bulk with a surprisingly synergetic ability. However, standard Gyarados doesn't like this Rotom-W infested metagame, and it's base 124 Attack and weak STABs aren't quite cutting it anymore. Intimidate and Moxie are great abilities, but I feel Gyarados's other faults are weighing it down significantly. It's niche as a physical water-type has been challenged by Azumarill, and it's facing huge competition as a Dragon Dancer from stuff like DNite and Charizard X. It's still good, but it's not A rank. More defensive sets are still usable but haven't been as effective (in my own limited experience, feel free to challenge this) as they were is past generations.

 

[Grey Knight]

*ahem* Mega Gyarados cannot reliably beat physically defensive Mega Venusaur under many conditions, even with Mold Breaker. Dat 65 Base Power.

i am saving LoDart210 from posting

this how it goes , gyarados just dances 2 times , one while venusaur is switching and second when venusaur tries to to stop it on the second turn , during those dances gyarados doesnt evolve to mega gyarados , on 3 turn gyarados evolves and thanks to mold breaker it scores a huge amount of +2 ice fang damage , on turn 4 it kills venusaur , no combination of two moves over those two used by venusaur can stop that ,for more info check my much more precise algorithm a few pages ago

 

[Always!]

From what I've seen and used, in battle and on here, MGyara is a top-notch setup sweeper, and it is a pretty damn good one as well. I could see it moving up a rank, especially due to it's unpredictability and ability to change typing and beat out thing's that gave it's normal form trouble, like Rotom-W.

Also, a quick note:

*ahem* Mega Gyarados cannot reliably beat physically defensive Mega Venusaur under many conditions, even with Mold Breaker. Dat 65 Base Power.

+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 166-196 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO

And in return: 4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 152-182 (45.7 - 54.8%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO

As you said, it cannot reliably beat out MVena, but with some prior damage, Mvena can't come in too safely, as it is 2HKOed by +1 Ice Fang, solidifying the fact that MGyara is a fantastic midgame sweeper.

Edit: Actually, that last calc is irrelevant if you haven't Mevo'd yet, as you could possibly score another DD or hit it twice with Ice Fang, assuming MVena used Sludge Bomb as you Mevo, or Giga Drain as normal Gyara.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Well there is that one pokemon that i really don't think that belongs in A category is Gengar, and i know i am going to get bombarded by a crap load of haters and funboys (gengar has a big funboy base) for that but i am posting it anyway

Gengar lost a lot and gained little over the transition to X/Y, its role as a offensive spin blocker has greatly deteriorated, the main reasons for that is, first the inception of many new spin blockers this gen that compete for the spin blocking team slot , although not all of them are better than gengar the big amount of them and the team building variety that provide puts a lot of weight in gengars shoulders , he is no longer that must have for every offensive hazard relied team , secondly the fallen escadrill , note that this guy is the most popular spinner right now and the guy that gengar has to face in many spin blocking wars, well gengar totally fails to spin block effectively , and i see many gengar users trying to play around this major issue with interesting set variations like WoW gengar but still nothing changes the fact that earthquake will 1hko it through levitate because of mold breaker, third and most important reason is the general demise of the spin blocking/spinning element that characterized a big part of the last OU, that's partly derived from the second point but mostly from the inception of defog , none can deny it really unless hes totally quagsire on whats going on in the meta right now.

Now i know what you might be thinking , spin blocking was one of the main reasons that people used it BUT its not the only one , there are other things like his offensive capabilities that made and keep making one of the greatest ou mons , but is those attributes good enough to reserve it a place to A lets see :

Good response. I do not use Gengar as a spinblocker this Gen but as a special attacking Ghost type. Subsplit performs well against Stall.

Gengar performs decently or well against Gliscor, Breloom, Fairies (if it has Sludge Bomb), and Mega Vensaur. The example against Talonflame does not consider the possibility of Gengar having a sub already set-up. Gengar can revenge a Conkeldurr though if it has no Assault Vest (IIRC LO Shadow Ball does around 50% without Assault Vest).

Gengar often loses in certain match-ups against bulky Pokemon (which seems to be better suited during the late game when most of its targets are in KO range) or faster Pokemon. But, even so, Gengar's assets are its speed and high special attack stat; while Gengar is checked by many Pokemon, it cannot be countered due to its speed and power. Not many Pokemon would want to switch into to a LO Gengar Shadow Ball, which is probably the most spammable attack in OU for powerful neutral coverage, (or Sludge Bomb if you want to reveal that you have it) and the subsequent attack. Its attributes discourage switching in.

 

[Ryolain]

Well there is that one pokemon that i really don't think that belongs in A category is Gengar, and i know i am going to get bombarded by a crap load of haters and funboys (gengar has a big funboy base) for that but i am posting it anyway

Gengar lost a lot and gained little over the transition to X/Y, its role as a offensive spin blocker has greatly deteriorated, the main reasons for that is, first the inception of many new spin blockers this gen that compete for the spin blocking team slot , although not all of them are better than gengar the big amount of them and the team building variety that provide puts a lot of weight in gengars shoulders , he is no longer that must have for every offensive hazard relied team , secondly the fallen escadrill , note that this guy is the most popular spinner right now and the guy that gengar has to face in many spin blocking wars, well gengar totally fails to spin block effectively , and i see many gengar users trying to play around this major issue with interesting set variations like WoW gengar but still nothing changes the fact that earthquake will 1hko it through levitate because of mold breaker, third and most important reason is the general demise of the spin blocking/spinning element that characterized a big part of the last OU, that's partly derived from the second point but mostly from the inception of defog , none can deny it really unless hes totally quagsire on whats going on in the meta right now.

Now i know what you might be thinking , spin blocking was one of the main reasons that people used it BUT its not the only one , there are other things like his offensive capabilities that made and keep making one of the greatest ou mons , but is those attributes good enough to reserve it a place to A lets see :

pokemon that the typical most used offensive all attacker set actually beats , sorry i cant make a list for every trollish or not variation of gengar set this will take a lot of time , plus i don't think that a 10 page post is possible in xenoforo

the main set , small variations like thunderbolt will be included .

im gonna use logic mathematics , cuz mathematics are simple , beautiful and easily understandable

Hide

Fails
(Gengar gets 2 consecutive focus blast hits [49%])ν(Gengar survives 2 lava plumes [0%])
-->Gengar wins
(nothing of the two happens most of the time so it losses , subsitube )

Fails
¬(Talon is banded or with life or with sharp beak [51%])Λ(gengar somehow outspeeds and is not koed by brave bird [0%])-->Gengar wins

nothing of the two is happening any time soon

Kills
[(gengar kills with two moves its [over 50%] )ν(It has thunder bolt [20%])]Λ(it takes a hit from manaphy [100%])-> GW

it wins , but it pyrrhic victory really ,yes i included the poison chance over 2 turns of sludge bombs, thats why the its over 50%

Fails

¬(aegis has shadow sneak [88%])ν¬(aegis kills with one boosted shadow sneak [71%])
-->gengar wins

yes people that use boosting item (spooky plate ,LO ) is included , gengar loses the vast majority of the time , the substitute-king shield games are too complicated to analyse ,

Fails
(Charizard has fire blast [40% rough estimation])Λ(Gengar gets a fire blast miss against a fire blast over 5 uses of substitute [56%] )Λ(gengar kills with two sludge bombs [60% approx])--> gw

gengar loses , the chance for all those to happen is bad


now time for some much more simple match ups

Fails
one hit and its down ,
nothing kos back even after fb recoil

Fails
i calculated , too bored to write it , the thing is gengar wont get 2 consecutive focus blast not that it can take a hit in the first place

Fails
the same with charizard , even thunder bolt wont ko

Fails
knock off destroys, assault vest provides

Fails
not much to say , dark pulse is used 75% of the time

Fails
it takes a focus blast and thats without even getting on the bulkier ones

ok i think that's enough , from a quick look to the rest of the mons in the list , it seems that gengar is capable of killing/sweeping less than 80-90% of the S to -A pokemon , and just in case you wonder that's nothing compared to other sweepers like talon and terrakion

team support capabilities like confu haxing outrage locked pokemon , sub disabling , crippling with WoW trolling with destiny bond and hypnosis or even sub split have greatly declined as show by usage statistics and other things.

(pls don't bombard me with post like , the list is wrong because the x pokemon loses to the x rarely used situational move example hypnosis against every pokemon that outspeeds note that even that wont change much ,chance of hypnosis and chance of the sleeping pokemon to not wake up next turn is lower than 50% )

even a simple variation of lo over black sludge actually doesn't help gengar on many match ups , it will win some more but it also lose about as many or even more because of lo recoil.





i am personally going to replay this s when i find time, because we have to respect the current conversation .

I agree completely with this post, Gengar dies even more easily than it used to with Ghost and Dark moves flying all over the place plus Psychic moves picking up a little viability. Spinblocking is lol, does anyone even do that anymore with Defog and Excadrill existing? Its 110 Speed isn't even as outrageous as it used to be with Thundurus, Tornadus, Greninja and Talonflame wrecking its shit. It's just too frail to use support sets effectively. I haven't built a single team that I felt like Gengar could be a fit for, I don't know what his role in OU is anymore before a fragile special sweeper that gets revenge killed stupidly easily.

 

[X5Dragon]

Yay, I can talk about these mons again (Come at me Chou :P bro):

Bisharp: This dude is just made for OU right now, eats crumbler for breakfast, doesn't care about Lando-T, priority to make the ones without one quiver in fear, help against fairies, Pursuit for the Lati@s defoggers (having his cake an eating it too), etc.

tldr:

1) Lati@s/Aegislash Pursuiter
2) Strong, nearly unresisted Priority
3) Discourages Sticky Web
4) Defog Blocker
5) Takes advantage against Intimidate users
6) Mon that can legitimately use a Steel move without looking gimmicky with it

Deoxys-D: Repeat after me, best hazard setter in the game. Something as simple as Taunt/SR/Spikes/Magic Coat along with a troll item (Rocky Helmet, Red Card) and this dude can spam until he dies and can almost always lay down at least 2 hazards before fainting.

Latios: Best offensive defogger around, bar none. I'm not even mentioning his 110 speed, 130 SpA with Psyshock that makes him a good revenge killer and damager spreader all around.


----

Edit: How effective is CB Dragonite against stall teams?

These two are enough for me:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 213-252 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

But if you really insist:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 158-188 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I think I should further belabor that Gengar immensely gained from Ghost buff/Steel nerf. That makes it more difficult to counter Gengar since one cannot just simply switch into a Steel type (although Specially Defensive Heatran checks it at full Health, but a LO Focus Blast + Gen 6 Shadow Ball does ~90%) that resists Shadow Ball. To put it another way, the buff reduces the burden of prediction on the Gengar user due to the 100% boost from Shadow Ball (against Steel types) would more likely put a Steel type in KO range for a subsequent Shadow Ball (or Focus Blast).

I personally think Gengar is too weak without its LO.

 

[Always!]

I think I should further belabor that Gengar immensely gained from Ghost buff/Steel nerf. That makes it more difficult to counter Gengar since one cannot just simply switch into a Steel type (although Specially Defensive Heatran checks it at full Health, but a LO Focus Blast + Gen 6 Shadow Ball does ~90%) that resists Shadow Ball. To put it another way, the buff reduces the burden of prediction on the Gengar user due to the 100% boost from Shadow Ball (against Steel types) would more likely put a Steel type in KO range for a subsequent Shadow Ball (or Focus Blast).

I personally think Gengar is too weak without its LO.

Since Gengar was the poster-boy Ghost type, it is very good at cleaning up with it's great coverage and strength, so the buff made it really good in that aspect. LO strengthens it, but what makes Gengar so good is that things have trouble switching in to it, meaning that with correct prediction, Gengar can do a fantastic job at killing weakened mons, and not have to worry about things that can completely wall it, as it lost a type that resisted it.

 

[Baharoth]

Id also rather promote (mega) Gyara by a rank than demoting it. It might not have the raw power some other setup sweepers have but its mega evolution is just so incredibly usefull. The ability to switch around its ability from defensive intimidate to offensive moldbreaker and its typing while significantly increasing its bulk is just so valuable when used correctly. It allows Mega Gyara to play around its checks something that no other sweeper can. Its power, while not top of the tier, ist still more than enough to ohko or at least 2hko most of the meta after a single DD and given how bulky it is its no problem for it to take a few hits while sweeping or simply go for +2 to seal the deal.

Rotom-w, while beeing a huge threat for normal gyara isnt much of hassle for mega gyara as it can easily take a volt switch, block wow with substitute or simply wipe the floor with rotom due to mold breaker. It needs some prior dmg to ohko physical defensive rotom-w but thats manageable. Mega Pinsir has actually a harder time dealing with rotom-w than mega gyara.

Therefor Mega Gyarados for A+

 

[LightningLuxray]

Id also rather promote (mega) Gyara by a rank than demoting it. It might not have the raw power some other setup sweepers have but its mega evolution is just so incredibly usefull. The ability to switch around its ability from defensive intimidate to offensive moldbreaker and its typing while significantly increasing its bulk is just so valuable when used correctly. It allows Mega Gyara to play around its checks something that no other sweeper can. Its power, while not top of the tier, ist still more than enough to ohko or at least 2hko most of the meta after a single DD and given how bulky it is its no problem for it to take a few hits while sweeping or simply go for +2 to seal the deal.

Rotom-w, while beeing a huge threat for normal gyara isnt much of hassle for mega gyara as it can easily take a volt switch, block wow with substitute or simply wipe the floor with rotom due to mold breaker. It needs some prior dmg to ohko physical defensive rotom-w but thats manageable. Mega Pinsir has actually a harder time dealing with rotom-w than mega gyara.

Therefor Mega Gyarados for A+

Mega Gyarados is a Pokemon I've been using quite a lot recently, and, honestly, I think it's perfectly fine in A. Sure, it's definitely powerful, and it has Mold Breaker for Rotom-W, but it can definitely be played around. Sure, you can mega evolve and kill Rotom-W, but now you're opponent can send out Conk, a Pokemon that you previously walled before, to revenge kill you. Combine this with a nasty Stealth Rocks weakness before you switch in, and a lot of time Mega Gyara has a hard time getting past one or two Pokemon. Sure, it sweeps unprepared teams with ease, but I find the higher I ladder, the more prepared people are for it, and it has a hard time getting a sweep going. Not only that, but it doesn't really do anything to stall, either, as Unaware Quagsire is on basically all stall teams now.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 17.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Quagsire can just sit and Recover stall, and eventually get a burn with Scald, slowly killing it.

All in all, Mega Gyara is definitely a threat that demolishes unprepared teams, but it has some problems that keep it as an A rank Pokemon.

 

[LoDart210]

I think the reason special sweepers seem so underwhelming is the meta games transition from a special attacking one to a physical attacking one.

It's why Pokemon like gengar and Latios seems so subpar (gengar having to rely on sub split and Latios on Defog to be considered useful)

Also, while there may not have been a power creep this gen there most certainly been a speed creep.

Friggin hell, now 110 is considered "ok" as a speed stat when once 100 was considered awesome.

The rise of prankster and priority as well as a lot of Pokemon that have over base 110 speed has made it harder for Pokemon like gengar and Latios to be noticed.


They still are great. They're just facing a new generation of battling that leaves them as the last kid picked in a schoolyard game of dodgeball.

 

[Baharoth]

Mega Gyarados is a Pokemon I've been using quite a lot recently, and, honestly, I think it's perfectly fine in A. Sure, it's definitely powerful, and it has Mold Breaker for Rotom-W, but it can definitely be played around. Sure, you can mega evolve and kill Rotom-W, but now you're opponent can send out Conk, a Pokemon that you previously walled before, to revenge kill you. Combine this with a nasty Stealth Rocks weakness before you switch in, and a lot of time Mega Gyara has a hard time getting past one or two Pokemon. Sure, it sweeps unprepared teams with ease, but I find the higher I ladder, the more prepared people are for it, and it has a hard time getting a sweep going. Not only that, but it doesn't really do anything to stall, either, as Unaware Quagsire is on basically all stall teams now.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 17.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Quagsire can just sit and Recover stall, and eventually get a burn with Scald, slowly killing it.

All in all, Mega Gyara is definitely a threat that demolishes unprepared teams, but it has some problems that keep it as an A rank Pokemon.

Mega Gyara takes less than 50% from Conks Mach Punch (on average) so u have to be rather low on hp for Conk to stop it. In fact Mega Gyara can take a Volt Switch from Rotom-w and a Mach Punch from Conk and still live and thats without any def investment.

Interesting though that ur naming Quagsire as a counter as Mega Gyara is among the few setup sweepers capable of breaking through him due to Mold Breaker. Ofc not unboosted but since Quagsire cant realy do anything back exept hoping for burns, and even less against sets using Substitute, Gyara has all the time it needs to set up. The only way to stop it is Haze.

 

[LoDart210]

Mega Gyarados is a Pokemon I've been using quite a lot recently, and, honestly, I think it's perfectly fine in A. Sure, it's definitely powerful, and it has Mold Breaker for Rotom-W, but it can definitely be played around. Sure, you can mega evolve and kill Rotom-W, but now you're opponent can send out Conk, a Pokemon that you previously walled before, to revenge kill you. Combine this with a nasty Stealth Rocks weakness before you switch in, and a lot of time Mega Gyara has a hard time getting past one or two Pokemon. Sure, it sweeps unprepared teams with ease, but I find the higher I ladder, the more prepared people are for it, and it has a hard time getting a sweep going. Not only that, but it doesn't really do anything to stall, either, as Unaware Quagsire is on basically all stall teams now.

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 17.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Quagsire can just sit and Recover stall, and eventually get a burn with Scald, slowly killing it.

All in all, Mega Gyara is definitely a threat that demolishes unprepared teams, but it has some problems that keep it as an A rank Pokemon.

Dude unaware is cancelled by mold breaker.

Being a quagsire fanboy, I learned this the hard way.

 

[LoDart210]

I think I should further belabor that Gengar immensely gained from Ghost buff/Steel nerf. That makes it more difficult to counter Gengar since one cannot just simply switch into a Steel type (although Specially Defensive Heatran checks it at full Health, but a LO Focus Blast + Gen 6 Shadow Ball does ~90%) that resists Shadow Ball. To put it another way, the buff reduces the burden of prediction on the Gengar user due to the 100% boost from Shadow Ball (against Steel types) would more likely put a Steel type in KO range for a subsequent Shadow Ball (or Focus Blast).

I personally think Gengar is too weak without its LO.

I tend to give my LO gengar giga drain to kill Pokemon like quagsire and gastrodon. Basically, anything weak to grass which is still a decent number.

It's situational I admit but that extra health often gives me enough health to power through the rest of the sweep.


I do not disagree. Outside of a situation where it has a super effective attack ready, gengar is sub par. A-

 

[Salemance]

I tend to give my LO gengar giga drain to kill Pokemon like quagsire and gastrodon. Basically, anything weak to grass which is still a decent number.

It's situational I admit but that extra health often gives me enough health to power through the rest of the sweep.


I do not disagree. Outside of a situation where it has a super effective attack ready, gengar is sub par. A-

Gengar is able to abuse so many different sets. One of my personal favorites is the SubDisable set that shuts down many a common threats and with just Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, he hits what he wishes and is able to make a bad match up good (ie, Sub on the Knock Off, then use Disable on said Knock Off).

Then you could go with SubSplit, LO, a choice set, really, Gengar has enough options to do what it wishes. The only instance I myself can say that Gengar is subpar is that he himself is frail. He can live quite a bit, and with three immunities, he has a lot he can do but he is a little to frail for his own good sometimes.

 

[114]

Oh shoot didn't realize keldeo is A. It should be in A- just because fairies + venusaur this gen. Scarf set can't late game clean like before, and it can't CM/LO wallbreak just because of stuff like sylveon, clefairy, venusaur, and its 5th gen stops. Also..... no rain.

Way way not as good as before. A-

 

[LoDart210]

Gengar is able to abuse so many different sets. One of my personal favorites is the SubDisable set that shuts down many a common threats and with just Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, he hits what he wishes and is able to make a bad match up good (ie, Sub on the Knock Off, then use Disable on said Knock Off).

Then you could go with SubSplit, LO, a choice set, really, Gengar has enough options to do what it wishes. The only instance I myself can say that Gengar is subpar is that he himself is frail. He can live quite a bit, and with three immunities, he has a lot he can do but he is a little to frail for his own good sometimes.

Yes gengar is very good. I think it's still a good Pokemon, just that there's a lot of new gen Pokemon (and the dropping of excadrill) as well as old targets that can now defeat it (mega gyarados) so its not as dangerous as it once was. Kind of like starmies situation, but not as bad.