Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Ruffles]

The specs set is pretty much non-existant at this point.

Also, no, in Latios case it's not the good 4MSS. You very often sit thinking "fuck, I wish I had surf/tbolt/eq/hp fire/psyshock now.."
It's a very good mon, and I do run it at more or less 90% of my teams, but that 4MSS is actually affecting it. So, I'm gonna agree with magcargo there.

Also the Talonflame calcs are kinda irrelevant too, as after rocks you have 75-ish% on the OHKO. And seeing that Latios' main job these days is Defogging, you have to assume rocks damage has been taken.

I see your point, but still it does make you unpredictable as the foe won't know what set are you using.

Assuming it's CHECKING I don't think considering SR damage is the right thing to do.

And the specs set, I've seen it a lot of times. Yes LO and Defog set is more popular set, but I still see it a lot of times.

I'm not saying that it should be S rank or A+, I'm just saying it should be where it is.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

I see your point, but still it does make you unpredictable as the foe won't know what set are you using.

Assuming it's CHECKING I don't think considering SR damage is the right thing to do.

And the specs set, I've seen it a lot of times. Yes LO and Defog set is more popular set, but I still see it a lot of times.

I'm not saying that it should be S rank or A+, I'm just saying it should be where it is.

And after the coverage is revealed, you curse yourself for being unable to harm that heatran/azumarill/scizor etc.

SR is almost always applied to damage calcs. But yes, I'm not denying that Latios has some respectable bulk; it's not frail at all.

Fair enough.

I have no opinion in that regard tbh. But I'm more on remaining where it is, too.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Can someone explain why Jolteon isn't on this list? In my experience it's perfectly viable in OU.

Not saying it should be, but would like to know why it doesn't deserve a place.

It's super frail and has awful coverage. If you want a specially attacking Electric types, Thundurus-I, Thundurus-T, Manectric-M, or Raikou will probably be better for you, due to better coverage, power, and/or speed. Jolteon is only C ranked in UU this gen, just due to how much better Manectric is.

 

[EndingCredits]

It's super frail and has awful coverage. If you want a specially attacking Electric types, Thundurus-I, Thundurus-T, Manectric-M, or Raikou will probably be better for you, due to better coverage, power, and/or speed. Jolteon is only C ranked in UU this gen, just due to how much better Manectric is.

I take your point, although Jolteon does have the advantage of 130 base speed and access to Choice Specs (which Thundurus and Manetric respectively don't get) so I suppose it still has a niche.

 

[LightningLuxray]

So... just to help fuel the conversations, lets talk about some of the Pokemon we've basically made a decision on, and what Pokemon still need to be discussed.

Final Decision:

Bisharp A ---> A+
Deo-D A ---> A+
Dragonite A ---> A+
Keldeo A ---> A-
Terrakion A ---> A-
Mega Tyranitar A ---> A+

Pokemon That Still Need to be Discussed:

Azumaril A ---> A+
Conkeldurr A ---> A-
Latios A ---> A+ (imo this thing should just stay A)
Mega Scizor A ---> A+
Clefable A- ---> A
Skarmory A- ---> A

Also, we've has a lot of discussion on both Gengar from A ---> A- and Mega Gyara from A ---> A+, but I'm not exactly sure what the final verdict was. Did we decide to keep both these Pokemon in the same rank?

 

[Baharoth]

Excadrill should be moved down a significant amount because it's frail, slow, and weak to pretty much everything. Also it's very one dimensional and not that strong without an SD so it should move to like C+

Glad to know that i am not the only one who thinks that way. I am using him on my Sandstorm team and it feels like hes dead weight 90% of the time :(

Deo-D A ---> A+

I mentioned it a few pages ago and id like to do it again since i realy dont get the high ranking of that thing. Its one dimensional as hell, the only thing it can do is hazard support as a dedicated, one could even say suicide, lead. I am aware that he is considered to be the best poke in that regard but is that niche relevant enough to justify such a high rank?

First thing is its so predictable, when seeing Deo-D on team preview its obvious what the lead is going to be so the counter is probably already waiting. Aegisslash for example, he is pretty much everywhere and can take deo out with Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak so the only thing Deo will do is setting up rocks, after that its 5 vs 6. But even if he manages to get up SR and lets say 2 layers of Spikes, Defog is everywhere and will simply clean away all the hazards. I guess HO Teams still benefit from that to keep the pressure up but then again, HO is a bit of a niche itself. BO is far more common and i dont see any use for Deo-D on BO teams. From my point of view that doesnt realy justify such a high ranking.

 

[Aragorn the King]

So... just to help fuel the conversations, lets talk about some of the Pokemon we've basically made a decision on, and what Pokemon still need to be discussed.

Final Decision:

Bisharp A ---> A+
Deo-D A ---> A+
Dragonite A ---> A+
Keldeo A ---> A-
Terrakion A ---> A-
Mega Tyranitar A ---> A+

Pokemon That Still Need to be Discussed:

Azumaril A ---> A+
Conkeldurr A ---> A-
Latios A ---> A+ (imo this thing should just stay A)
Mega Scizor A ---> A+
Clefable A- ---> A
Skarmory A- ---> A

Also, we've has a lot of discussion on both Gengar from A ---> A- and Mega Gyara from A ---> A+, but I'm not exactly sure what the final verdict was. Did we decide to keep both these Pokemon in the same rank?

I definitely agree with bunn-bunn (a.k.a Azumarill) for A+. It has a great defensive typing and STAB coverage, that's only resisted in OU by Tentacruel, Venusaur & Ferrothorn. It has fighting coverage for Ferrothorn, so it only has two 100% counters. The choice band set hits hard + fast, and the belly drum set makes it hard to wall after one turn. A+

I'm not sure if I agree with Skarmory. It does its job well, but it can often be outclassed in a way by Deoxys. Sure, there are things to differentiate the two, but I'm not sure Skarmory is right for A rank. Plus, any special attack will cripple it. A-

I already said my thoughts on this, but they were very quickly turned down. I'd say A-, but it seems all the important people think A. I can agree. A/A-

I'm on the fence about this one. Psychic and flying moves have both increased in usage lately, at that makes it hard for Conk to survive. Also, most Psychic types use Psyshock, which easily gets around Assault Vest. On the other hand, it gets nice recovery, priority to make up for the low speed, and the ever crippling Knock Off. I could see it going either way, but I'm leaning towards A-. A/A-

With the huge increase in usage of Bisharp, I personally think Latios should stay A. It's easy Pursuit and Sucker Punch bait, and it gives Bisharp a Swords Dance whenever it Defogs. It's also easily trapped by Ttar, who's another A rank Pokemon. A

This definitely needs to go to A+. It has the special bulk Scizor always dreamed of, and has more physical bulk than Skarmory. It has reliable recovery, (iirc) knock off, super powerful priority, and defog. While there is a power loss between CB Scizor and Scizor-M, Mega Scizor gains so much, enough, in my opinion, to make a A pokemon A+. A+

Excadrill should be moved down a significant amount because it's frail, slow, and weak to pretty much everything. Also it's very one dimensional and not that strong without an SD so it should move to like C+.

Are you joking? I'm not sure if I should respond sincerely or not, but Excadrill is definitely an A rank pokemon. It's a physical attacker that can bypass Levitate and Multiscale (and reliably kill Rotom!!!!) or reach an insane amount of speed with sand support. It also is a great Rapid Spinner, which is essential in this metagame.

Glad to know that i am not the only one who thinks that way. I am using him on my Sandstorm team and it feels like hes dead weight 90% of the time :(




I mentioned it a few pages ago and id like to do it again since i realy dont get the high ranking of that thing. Its one dimensional as hell, the only thing it can do is hazard support as a dedicated, one could even say suicide, lead. I am aware that he is considered to be the best poke in that regard but is that niche relevant enough to justify such a high rank?

First thing is its so predictable, when seeing Deo-D on team preview its obvious what the lead is going to be so the counter is probably already waiting. Aegisslash for example, he is pretty much everywhere and can take deo out with Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak so the only thing Deo will do is setting up rocks, after that its 5 vs 6. But even if he manages to get up SR and lets say 2 layers of Spikes, Defog is everywhere and will simply clean away all the hazards. I guess HO Teams still benefit from that to keep the pressure up but then again, HO is a bit of a niche itself. BO is far more common and i dont see any use for Deo-D on BO teams.

Wait, what? You seem sincere about Excadrill. First of all, in sandstorm, how is he dead weight? He reaches an insane speed stat while being adamant, and hits super hard with SlideQuake coverage and Steel STAB coming off of 135 base attack. Also, personally, Mold Breaker is a better ability to use, as it allows you to kill Rotom-W.

And regarding Deoxys-D, you are right that he is a bit one dimensional, but he is so good in that dimension. With 50/160/160 bulk and a Red Card, you can almost always get 3 entry hazards up and stack hazard damage on one opposing Pokemon. For a defensive Pokemon, he also has an insane base 90 speed which allows him to taunt Defoggers and opposing Pokemon trying to use him as set up bait. Also, base 70 offenses are certainly not superb, but they are enough if you need an Ice Beam user to slay Gliscor, for I don't know, Bisharp. Speaking of which, Deosharp is a very popular core that, when done correctly, either makes sure hazards are kept up the whole match, or gives Bisharp a free SD which he can use to sweep a team.

 

[Baharoth]

Wait, what? You seem sincere about Excadrill. First of all, in sandstorm, how is he dead weight? He reaches an insane speed stat while being adamant, and hits super hard with SlideQuake coverage and Steel STAB coming off of 135 base attack. Also, personally, Mold Breaker is a better ability to use, as it allows you to kill Rotom-W.

I dont realy feel like discussing that so i will simply post my experience and let it be with that. The thing about Exca is his low defense and common weaknesses combined with the fact that he fails to ohko so often. He takes 40-50% from almost everything neutral and even resisted moves do a decent amount while SE hits are almost certain ohkos, on the other hand he hardly manages to ohko anything thats not hit SE by Earthquake.

As i said its just personal experience, maybe i am just not using him correctly/expect him to do things he cant do/use the wrong set, i realy dont know, thats part of the reason why i am still using him despite getting dissapointed all the time. Though when facing him its pretty much the same, the only problems i had with him so far were scarfed sets that caught me by suprise.

Regarding Deo-D. As i said, i have no doubt that he is extremly good at what he does. The thing i wonder about is, is the thing he does good/important enough to justify A+?

 

[Flare48]

I definitely agree with bunn-bunn (a.k.a Azumarill) for A+. It has a great defensive typing and STAB coverage, that's only resisted in OU by Tentacruel, Venusaur & Ferrothorn. It has fighting coverage for Ferrothorn, so it only has two 100% counters. The choice band set hits hard + fast, and the belly drum set makes it hard to wall after one turn. A+

I'm not sure if I agree with Skarmory. It does its job well, but it can often be outclassed in a way by Deoxys. Sure, there are things to differentiate the two, but I'm not sure Skarmory is right for A rank. Plus, any special attack will cripple it. A-

I already said my thoughts on this, but they were very quickly turned down. I'd say A-, but it seems all the important people think A. I can agree. A/A-

I'm on the fence about this one. Psychic and flying moves have both increased in usage lately, at that makes it hard for Conk to survive. Also, most Psychic types use Psyshock, which easily gets around Assault Vest. On the other hand, it gets nice recovery, priority to make up for the low speed, and the ever crippling Knock Off. I could see it going either way, but I'm leaning towards A-. A/A-

With the huge increase in usage of Bisharp, I personally think Latios should stay A. It's easy Pursuit and Sucker Punch bait, and it gives Bisharp a Swords Dance whenever it Defogs. It's also easily trapped by Ttar, who's another A rank Pokemon. A

This definitely needs to go to A+. It has the special bulk Scizor always dreamed of, and has more physical bulk than Skarmory. It has reliable recovery, (iirc) knock off, super powerful priority, and defog. While there is a power loss between CB Scizor and Scizor-M, Mega Scizor gains so much, enough, in my opinion, to make a A pokemon A+. A+

Are you joking? I'm not sure if I should respond sincerely or not, but Excadrill is definitely an A rank pokemon. It's a physical attacker that can bypass Levitate and Multiscale (and reliably kill Rotom!!!!) or reach an insane amount of speed with sand support. It also is a great Rapid Spinner, which is essential in this metagame.



Wait, what? You seem sincere about Excadrill. First of all, in sandstorm, how is he dead weight? He reaches an insane speed stat while being adamant, and hits super hard with SlideQuake coverage and Steel STAB coming off of 135 base attack. Also, personally, Mold Breaker is a better ability to use, as it allows you to kill Rotom-W.

And regarding Deoxys-D, you are right that he is a bit one dimensional, but he is so good in that dimension. With 50/160/160 bulk and a Red Card, you can almost always get 3 entry hazards up and stack hazard damage on one opposing Pokemon. For a defensive Pokemon, he also has an insane base 90 speed which allows him to taunt Defoggers and opposing Pokemon trying to use him as set up bait. Also, base 70 offenses are certainly not superb, but they are enough if you need an Ice Beam user to slay Gliscor, for I don't know, Bisharp. Speaking of which, Deosharp is a very popular core that, when done correctly, either makes sure hazards are kept up the whole match, or gives Bisharp a free SD which he can use to sweep a team.

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 282-332 (68.1 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO so psyshock isn't too much of a threat

Excadrill is really weak to all the mach punches and Focus blast being thrown around. Pretty much every good special attacker is using Focus blast isn't helping much i think he should go down to B rank and ive been using him since the day he came out.

Everything else i agree with

 

[Arkian]

I'd like to nominate Greninja for A+. It is one of the tier's best wallbreakers and can even function as a revenge killer. Greninja has excellent coverage, and it gets STAB on each and every one of those coverage moves thanks to Protean. With a Life Orb, Greninja hits surprisingly hard despite having a rather average base 103 Special Attack stat. It hits an excellent Speed tier, outspeeding the likes of Lati@s, Thundurus, Starmie, etc. and hits them with the appropriate move for a KO (Ice Beam for the former two and Dark Pulse for the latter, but a TWave sucks from Thundurus though :<). Protean even lets it play around a few mons, despite its bad bulk. An example of this would be against Mega Charizard-Y: You switch in on Mega Char after a kill, and go for Ice Beam. The Mega Char user predicts you to use Hydro Pump and goes for a Solar Beam. Because you're now an Ice-type, Solar Beam doesn't OHKO, and you can effectively remove Mega Char-Y as you 2HKO with Ice Beam and are faster. Of course this can go wrong if Mega Char-Y uses Fire Blast, but I'm around the 1600 rankings and it usually works out for me. This is just one of the scenarios in which Protean and Greninja itself is excellent to have, there are tons more. Overall, I believe that Greninja's Speed, power, coverage, and Protean shenanigans are good enough to make it A+ rank.

Edit @ below: Yeah, I forgot Greninja's role as a pivot. It has an excellent (STAB) U-turn to use that gains momentum left and right if you're willing to forgo a coverage move.

 

[Aragorn the King]

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 282-332 (68.1 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO so psyshock isn't too much of a threat

Excadrill is really weak to all the mach punches and Focus blast being thrown around. Pretty much every good special attacker is using Focus blast isn't helping much i think he should go down to B rank and ive been using him since the day he came out.

Everything else i agree with

Interesting calc, although it does make sense. I just meant that Assault Vest doesn't affect his weaknesses that much, as two of his most common weaknesses are physical. Maybe A rank is best for Conk, i'm not sure.

And your opinion on the Drill are interesting, as it already makes three people who want to put him B rank or lower. I'd like to hear some other opinions.

Don't forget its role as a pivot! With Genesect banned, its main competitor for a fast + strong pivot is gone! Despite his average attack, he gets a STAB U-turn that can bring momentum to the team. With that + what you said, I'd support A+ for the Ninja as well.

 

[Salemance]

So... just to help fuel the conversations, lets talk about some of the Pokemon we've basically made a decision on, and what Pokemon still need to be discussed.

Final Decision:

Bisharp A ---> A+
Deo-D A ---> A+
Dragonite A ---> A+
Keldeo A ---> A-
Terrakion A ---> A-
Mega Tyranitar A ---> A+

Pokemon That Still Need to be Discussed:

Azumaril A ---> A+
Conkeldurr A ---> A-
Latios A ---> A+ (imo this thing should just stay A)
Mega Scizor A ---> A+
Clefable A- ---> A
Skarmory A- ---> A

Also, we've has a lot of discussion on both Gengar from A ---> A- and Mega Gyara from A ---> A+, but I'm not exactly sure what the final verdict was. Did we decide to keep both these Pokemon in the same rank?

I still feel as if you might be over selling Bisharp, as I do not think he deserves to be ranked that high, yet that's just me. I've seen Dragonite nominated for A+ rank so many times now and it not happen, and I truly wonder what is the problem with him getting up there. Latios should not be ranked very highly at all, with both STABs having a chance to be negated via immunity, I would think his ranking would be A-, not +.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I still feel as if you might be over selling Bisharp, as I do not think he deserves to be ranked that high, yet that's just me. I've seen Dragonite nominated for A+ rank so many times now and it not happen, and I truly wonder what is the problem with him getting up there. Latios should not be ranked very highly at all, with both STABs having a chance to be negated via immunity, I would think his ranking would be A-, not +.

My post was just pointing out the opinions/suggestions of people in the thread. A lot of people were asking for Bisharp for A+, and since there had been no counter-arguments, I put it as decided.

Also, I agree with you 100% on Latios. Overall, the powerful special attacker just isn't want it used to be. It's dual STABS are walled basically all the Steel types in the tier, and with Bisharp running around the meta, it can have trouble Defogging a lot of the time. I feel like A is perfectly suited for it, though, because it's still and excellent Defogger, and it still has STAB base 130 SpA Life Orb Draco Meteors to throw around, meaning it's quite an effective Pokemon.

 

[rachet67]

Definitely don't think that Keldeo should be A- and that it should remain A. I already discussed keldeo early in the thread, so I'll just use the same argument.

Specs keldeo is an absolute monster. What this gen did is make it much harder to sweep with keldeo. However, thats never what keldeo was best at. Specs keldeo can punch massive holes, even in pokemon that resist its stabs but lack recovery, such as Azuramill. At wall breaking, on both the physical and the special side, specs keldeo is nearly unmatched and one of the best in OU. Yes there are new checks this gen, but its hard counters (celebi, jellicent, tentacruel, latios) are much rarer this generation. Specs Keldeo thrived last gen on tyranitar teams anyways, and the sand nerf helped it on those teams, as its no longer taking constant passive damage. Band Tyranitar can come into anything on talonflame and OHKO with pursuit. Its movepool is still pretty fantastic for what it does. Secret sword and hydro pump is what makes it so damn good, and practically define what it does. Mega Venesaur is one of the few OU hard counters left, but its far from being on every team, and Keldeo, like every other wall breaker has to rely on teammates for the few things it can't break.

 

[skies]

Definitely don't think that Keldeo should be A- and that it should remain A. I already discussed keldeo early in the thread, so I'll just use the same argument.

Specs keldeo is an absolute monster. What this gen did is make it much harder to sweep with keldeo. However, thats never what keldeo was best at. Specs keldeo can punch massive holes, even in pokemon that resist its stabs but lack recovery, such as Azuramill. At wall breaking, on both the physical and the special side, specs keldeo is nearly unmatched and one of the best in OU. Yes there are new checks this gen, but its hard counters (celebi, jellicent, tentacruel, latios) are much rarer this generation. Specs Keldeo thrived last gen on tyranitar teams anyways, and the sand nerf helped it on those teams, as its no longer taking constant passive damage. Band Tyranitar can come into anything on talonflame and OHKO with pursuit. Its movepool is still pretty fantastic for what it does. Secret sword and hydro pump is what makes it so damn good, and practically define what it does. Mega Venesaur is one of the few OU hard counters left, but its far from being on every team, and Keldeo, like every other wall breaker has to really on teammates for the few things it can't break.

I love Keldeo, but I much prefer Life Orb Keldeo. What do you really miss? I'd much rather switch moves, I mean look at its prime counters:
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 146-172 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 172-203 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 196-232 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 166-196 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 146-172 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

You get more immediate power obviously, but is there anything in particular that Specs is superior against than Life Orb? I like switching moves, as it beats Aegislash with Hydro Pump on the switch.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Definitely don't think that Keldeo should be A- and that it should remain A. I already discussed keldeo early in the thread, so I'll just use the same argument.

Specs keldeo is an absolute monster. What this gen did is make it much harder to sweep with keldeo. However, thats never what keldeo was best at. Specs keldeo can punch massive holes, even in pokemon that resist its stabs but lack recovery, such as Azuramill. At wall breaking, on both the physical and the special side, specs keldeo is nearly unmatched and one of the best in OU. Yes there are new checks this gen, but its hard counters (celebi, jellicent, tentacruel, latios) are much rarer this generation. Specs Keldeo thrived last gen on tyranitar teams anyways, and the sand nerf helped it on those teams, as its no longer taking constant passive damage. Band Tyranitar can come into anything on talonflame and OHKO with pursuit. Its movepool is still pretty fantastic for what it does. Secret sword and hydro pump is what makes it so damn good, and practically define what it does. Mega Venesaur is one of the few OU hard counters left, but its far from being on every team, and Keldeo, like every other wall breaker has to really on teammates for the few things it can't break.

My problem with it is that it basically has two moves. If you resist water + fighting and are reasonable bulky, you can easily take advantage of the specs set. You mention Azumarill, but it takes 47% max from a specs hydro pump. It can advantage of you for belly-jet sweeping (if the time is right), or just hurting Keldeo/a switch in with Play Rough. Venusaur is pretty common, and can make Keldeo dead weight on a team. It's also maybe worth mentioning that any nuking power Keldeo has requires using an 80% accurate move, which is unreliable. Sure it hits hard, but after using it and considering its accuracy and coverage problems, I think A- fits it more. There's no definite difference between A and A-, so it's not something I really care about, but I still don't think Keldeo defines the A rank, like it defined the S rank last gen.

I love Keldeo, but I much prefer Life Orb Keldeo. What do you really miss? I'd much rather switch moves, I mean look at its prime counters:
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 146-172 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 172-203 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 196-232 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 166-196 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 146-172 (48.3 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

You get more immediate power obviously, but is there anything in particular that Specs is superior against than Life Orb? I like switching moves, as it beats Aegislash with Hydro Pump on the switch.

I personally like Life Orb better, as with weak coverage and inaccurate STAB, mis-predicting with Specs can often turn Keldeo into lost momentum for the team. It is notable, however, that Life Orb makes Hydro Pump hit resistances a lot softer, so 2HKO's on say Azumarill won't happen.

 

[Assertingfire3]

That's false. Clefable is the most powerful Calm Mind user in OU. With Unaware, it can do some ridiculous shit like use +6 Manaphy, +6 Azumarill, and many more as setup bait. There's really nothing in OU that can turn a multitude of boosted set up sweeper into setup bait in ou.



Lol what. How is it underwhelming? When it's using CM with max def investment (which is the standard) you need STAB super effective hits coming off of Pokemon such as Bisharp to KO it. After at least 2 Calm Minds, you're limited to physical attackers that use Steel-Stab to get an OHKO. You got Bisharp, Excadrill, and sometimes Aegislash or Mawile. That's it. And even then, all of these Steel-types risk a Flamethrower to the face if they can't KO.


No. Its base HP is 95. For Pokemon like Mega Venusaur and Heatran, it's healing over half their health. It's not like it's going to use gigantic wishes like Chansey, but it's well enough to get by.

I mean so long as it's somewhere in A-rank, it doesn't matter much to me about the specific position, but a lot of false claims about Clefable are being made and it gets a little annoying.

You make a ton of great points about clefable. I have not used the calm mind set often so i apolgize about being unaware of its strengths. But you excellently showed showed that a clefable is a master at most trades. I also like to readdress that unaware clefable makes an excellant check to drago dancing dragons ignoring their boosts and retaliating with moonblast or setting up calm mind if you predict a switch. This also works for fighting types but not as effective since its not immune to fighting but resists. As for a cleric set 95/73/90 are decent defensive stats allowing it endure much punishment while passing wishes.

 

[rachet67]

My problem with it is that it basically has two moves. If you resist water + fighting and are reasonable bulky, you can easily take advantage of the specs set. You mention Azumarill, but it takes 47% max from a specs hydro pump. It can advantage of you for belly-jet sweeping (if the time is right), or just hurting Keldeo/a switch in with Play Rough. Venusaur is pretty common, and can make Keldeo dead weight on a team. It's also maybe worth mentioning that any nuking power Keldeo has requires using an 80% accurate move, which is unreliable. Sure it hits hard, but after using it and considering its accuracy and coverage problems, I think A- fits it more. There's no definite difference between A and A-, so it's not something I really care about, but I still don't think Keldeo defines the A rank, like it defined the S rank last gen.

I personally like Life Orb better, as with weak coverage and inaccurate STAB, mis-predicting with Specs can often turn Keldeo into lost momentum for the team. It is notable, however, that Life Orb makes Hydro Pump hit resistances a lot softer, so 2HKO's on say Azumarill won't happen.

Azumarill takes a lot of damage from whatever keldeo can dish out and any team that uses keldeo should have a solid answer to it (such as Venesaur). Becuase Azumarill has no recovery, it eventually is overwhelmed by Keldeo. Venesaur is on approximately 8.5% of OU teams (as of January). Any wall breaker has counters, and these should be addressed in teambuilding. If a wallbreaker didn't have any hard counters it would be banned to ubers. Celebi and Jellicent were hard counters for the most part last gen, yet Keldeo never found itself as dead weight (and its because they were hard counter almost all the time, Keldeo was nearly banned to ubers)

Finally, Specs Keldeo (or any keldeo for that matter) doesn't rely on Hydro Pump, as it has a safer option in Surf, that still does tons of damage to anything that doesn't resist it, and some stuff that does.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Azumarill takes a lot of damage from whatever keldeo can dish out and any team that uses keldeo should have a solid answer to it (such as Venesaur). Becuase Azumarill has no recovery, it eventually is overwhelmed by Keldeo. Venesaur is on approximately 8.5% of OU teams (as of January). Any wall breaker has counters, and these should be addressed in teambuilding. If a wallbreaker didn't have any hard counters it would be banned to ubers. Celebi and Jellicent were hard counters for the most part last gen, yet Keldeo never found itself as dead weight.

Finally, Specs Keldeo doesn't rely on Hydro Pump, as it has a safer option is Surf, that still does tons of damage to anything that doesn't resist it (and some stuff that does).

When you use surf, what move do you nix, Hidden Power or Hydro Pump? Without Hidden Power, you get walled by more things, and without Hydro Pump, you just won't hit resistances as hard (Azumarill takes only 32.4 - 38.3% from CS Surf). Keldeo isn't my main focus now, so I won't argue any further.
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What do people think about moving Mega Scizor up to A+? No one else has mentioned it at all.

 

[rachet67]

When you use surf, what move do you nix, Hidden Power or Hydro Pump? Without Hidden Power, you get walled by more things, and without Hydro Pump, you just won't hit resistances as hard (Azumarill takes only 32.4 - 38.3% from CS Surf). Keldeo isn't my main focus now, so I won't argue any further.
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What do people think about moving Mega Scizor up to A+? No one else has mentioned it at all.

Surf/Hydo Pump/Secret Sword/Icy wind is all thats really needed on Keldeo. HP flying only 3HKO's defensive Venusaur, so there's not a whole lot of reason to use that over surf. HP ghost can't 2HKO jellicent anymore (which is barely present in OU anyways) so thats not a loss either.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Yay, I can talk about these mons again (Come at me Chou :P bro):

Bisharp: This dude is just made for OU right now, eats crumbler for breakfast, doesn't care about Lando-T, priority to make the ones without one quiver in fear, help against fairies, Pursuit for the Lati@s defoggers (having his cake an eating it too), etc.

tldr:

1) Lati@s/Aegislash Pursuiter
2) Strong, nearly unresisted Priority
3) Discourages Sticky Web
4) Defog Blocker
5) Takes advantage against Intimidate users
6) Mon that can legitimately use a Steel move without looking gimmicky with it

Deoxys-D: Repeat after me, best hazard setter in the game. Something as simple as Taunt/SR/Spikes/Magic Coat along with a troll item (Rocky Helmet, Red Card) and this dude can spam until he dies and can almost always lay down at least 2 hazards before fainting.

Latios: Best offensive defogger around, bar none. I'm not even mentioning his 110 speed, 130 SpA with Psyshock that makes him a good revenge killer and damager spreader all around.


----

Edit: How effective is CB Dragonite against stall teams?

These two are enough for me:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 213-252 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 264-312 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

But if you really insist:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 158-188 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Except I agree with most everything you've said-- especially about Dragonite and Bisharp. Both definitely deserve A, and are teetering on A+. I would actually argue both of them being more threatening than Garchomp, and maybe more useful (like, half of Garchomp's value these days just comes from the joy of watching Talonflame and others kill themselves on Rough Skin-- Garchomp is good fodder material).

Deoxys-D is a great Pokemon, no doubt. It's much more reliable and useful as a setter than Deo-S (except for being more predictable, but that's forgivable).

Latios generally has a lot more problems this gen than last, but Defog does bring fantastic utility and I'd agree Latios is the best user. Latios and Latias have bulk, speed, and typing that make it almost impossible to stop it from defogging-- add in Latios' threat level... The only rival for the title would be Mandibuzz, who is the more reliable Pokemon; but Latios's offensive ability and threat level makes it the better user and more valuable Pokemon overall most of the time.

Mandibuzz's one big point over Latios would be being able to survive a +2 Bisharp attack and Whirlwind it out.

 

[BenTheDemon]

Also, we've has a lot of discussion on both Gengar from A ---> A-

Gengar's fine in A Neutral. It's only real flaw is that it has heavy competition as a team's Ghost type from Aegislash, but that affects usage, not viability.
Gengar is highly versatile. Its best set arguably is the Sub-Disable set, which it pulls off better than any Pokemon, and it's a very annoying set to work around.
Another thing in Gengar's favor is that it can run other sets to take out its Counters. It can run a Scarf to deal with Greninja and avoid speed ties with Lati@s. It can carry Focus Blast to exterminate Excadrill (70% of the time). And my personal unorthodox set, the Sash-Counter-Destiny Bond-Taunt-Shadow Ball. This set can use Counter on common Physical setup sweepers while 110 Base speed makes it likely to get a second KO. Taunt is there for things that try to bypass CounterBond, and Shadow Ball is there as strong STAB to possibly get more KOs.

So my verdict is that A neutral is perfect for Gengar.

 

[asterat]

Excadrill for B or lower

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Aegislash-Beats it 1 on 1, but admittedly a decent foe for excadrill

Charizard (Mega-Y)- excadrill loses every time

Charizard (Mega-X)- loses to sand rush under sand annihilates everything else

Pinsir (Mega)- eq or close combat

Thundurus-I- focus blast

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

A+ Rank

Deoxys-S- excadrill wins unless offensive, annoyed by fire punch on defnesive

Garchomp / Garchomp (Mega)- lol

Heatran- excadrill wins sometimes if not balloon

Kyurem-B- iron head beats it but won't OHKO and kyub hits hard

Landorus-I- lol

Landorus-T- lol

Manaphy- lol

Rotom-W- mold breaker eq doesn't even kill most

Talonflame- sand rush wins but otherwise lol

Venusaur (Mega)- tanks and wears it down

A Rank

Azumarill- waterfall/aqua jet

Bisharp- sucker punch does a ton and so do other moves, but drill outspeeds 1 on 1

Conkeldurr- dies to fight moves

Deoxys-D- knock off and good defense, no clear winner

Dragonite- fire punch or superpower or eq etc.

Gengar- kills it, mb gets past levitate on switch in but not exactly unexpected

Greninja- water move

Gyarados / Gyarados (Mega)- water move

Keldeo- water move

Latias- water/fire move, but no levitate

Latios-^

Mamoswine- eq

Mandibuzz- beats non SD, so almost all

Mawile (Mega)- dies to priority when boosted, but can OHKO

Scizor / Scizor (Mega)- tanks hits, kills drill or recovers but doesn't like hits

Terrakion- terra outpseeds

Tyranitar / Tyranitar (Mega)- outspeeds and kills ttar

A- Rank

Clefable- iron head beats it

Skarmory- can't do anything

 

[Salemance]

Excadrill for B or lower

Correct me if I'm wrong, (and believe me, I hate that guy almost as much as Rotom-W) but I see a few things wrong.

It outspeed Mamoswine by a whole 8 points. In those eight points, it can do this:
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 421-499 (99.2 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

(I realize most run Exca as Balloon Rapid Spinner, but Life Orb is still very viable and seen if memory serves)

Which, as most Mamoswine are LO, makes it dead if it manages to pull a 6.2% out.

And saying that it cannot reliably beat the best of THE best...idk if that's necessarily a bad thing no? It decimates a great many more.

 

[rachet67]

Correct me if I'm wrong, (and believe me, I hate that guy almost as much as Rotom-W) but I see a few things wrong.

It outspeed Mamoswine by a whole 8 points. In those eight points, it can do this:
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 421-499 (99.2 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

(I realize most run Exca as Balloon Rapid Spinner, but Life Orb is still very viable and seen if memory serves)

Which, as most Mamoswine are LO, makes it dead if it manages to pull a 6.2% out.

And saying that it cannot reliably beat the best of THE best...idk if that's necessarily a bad thing no? It decimates a great many more.

Not to mention that scarf mold breaker excadrill gets through most of the listed checks. And as a spinner, it doesn't necessarily have to get past all the checks, as long as it can do its job.