Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Chou Toshio]

This is just a question but since I've used Both Pokemon: How is Skarmory in a Lower Tier than Mandibuzz?

Because overall, Mandibuzz is more useful than Skarmory... (just saying).

Mandibuzz is a great Poke for all the reasons everyone has said, but I also think that SR weakness and lack of threat level (power outside of Foul Play) are enough to keep it out of A+. A is a good spot for it (but if it just had 15 more base ATK points for Brave Bird, I'd totally say A+... too bad).


edit: I also think Excadrill is A rank material. It's one of the few metagame threats that can reliably one-shot (non-shuca) Aegislash, and it's really nice to have a Ground-type NOT 4x weak to random HP Ice. Its Mold Breaker Earthquake is game defining-- forcing everyone to use Flying types instead of (or in addition to) Levitators, and has seriously shaped the meta. Between Scarf, AV, Balloon, and even CB, it's just so flexible and useful. It's not a wrench that plies the whole meta apart, but it's definitely a useful Swiss pocket knife...

 

[sidakarya]

Just saying, we shouldn't make "progress reports", we were discouraged from that earlier in this thread.

Anyway, I still think, Excadrill is fine in A rank. As said before, being the most reliable Rapid Spinner is quite an honour, especially with Deosharp spreading like wildfire. Between Airballon, AV, even Scarf or Sand Rush (and these can somewhat better the issues of unfavourable matchups), you can mold it to whatever team, you want to put it in, and checking extremely common things like Rotom-W, Aegislash, T-Tar, even some Thundurus with AV, is really nice too.

I really love Clefable and I do see it going to A-rank. Its extremely versatility and utility is its strongest point; you can pretty much ask it to do anything except Defog, and it's a great glue for things needing of Dragon- and Fighting-checks. It stops a tonne of dangerous threats like Dragonite with Unaware, a great thing for stall-teams, and with Magic Guard, it can be a status absorber and even a wallbreaker with LO. The biggest thing holding it back is its low stats, which makes it specialise in two stats at most and prevents it from playing multiple roles in a team, but it still is something, you can't underestimate.

 

[Mikasa]

IMO we should have more A- pokemons, from what I'm reading we just want to put more and more things on A+ and keep the A- rank with a very low number of pokemons, the way I see it the ranks should be more balanced in numbers, because just as an example both Kyurem-B and Skarmory are A rank because they are both good pokemons (just to simplify things let's say S is amazing, A is good, B is useful, C is mildly useful and D is niche), but Kyurem-B does his wallbreaking and hole punching job better than Skarmory does his walling job, hence one being A+ and the other A-, IMO A rank can be as big as it needs to be, if we have enough "good" pokemons for a 50 + sized A rank so be it, but the variations inside the rank should have a pool of pokemon as close to 33% of the entire rank size as possible (we don't need to be strict but an A neutral with 18 pokemons and an A- with 2 pokemons seems really off to me).

So with that said I agree with almost every A- rank nomination, but Excadrill (the mole is just too good to drop at least for now), so IMO we should drop Keldeo, Conkeldurr (I say this with pain because I love this guy) and Terrakion to A-, also keep both Clefable and Skarmory in the same rank, with those drops and some rises from the B tier we can have a more decently sized A- rank.

 

[114]

Constantly saying Excadrill is the "best spinner in OU" is a bit annoying now. In a sense, it's one of the worst defensive spinner, and is the best offenive spinner only because it's the only offensive spinner (less you want to count hitmonlee). Switching in is still far from easy, so spinning is far from reliable. If you use donphan, you'll actually see spinning opportunities are higher, though of course excadrill is still a much better pokemon. (sry for donphan mention but its true)

I'd say the mold breaker set spin is good in theory, but not that great in practice. It relies heavily on balloon for added reliability. B+/A- imo.

What is totally underrated is the LO sand rush set which just obliterates unprepared teams. Iron head is an incredible addition, and if it actually had access to gen5 there never would have been controversy lasting 5 nominations for suspect testing- it would have been banned instantly. But since it isn't used much (has to be paired with smooth rock TTar or Hippo) I'll just say A- rank

Also jumping on the conk+keldeo in A- train

 

[SJCrew]

Supporting Greninja for A+. It's one of those Pokemon you'll always regret leaving home without, standing in strict defiance of the current metagame with useful resistances to most priority, STAB on attacking types that are desperately needed in OU, and the speed to keep many offensive threats in line. It's a Pokemon that has just about everything going for it, whose cumulative abilities even leave it sitting on the cusp of S. One step at a time, though. If it's A in a Genesect metagame, A+ shouldn't be in dispute.

Bisharp, on the other hand, should remain in A. I think the only valid argument for boosting its rank is its ability to take advantage of Defog through Defiant, but it still has some pretty serious issues to overcome. It's dependence on Sucker Punch makes it liable to giving up so many turns that its practically unusable in the earlygame. Getting cheeky and going for the Knock Off on a revenge KO tends to result in death, too, so the prediction game usually isn't in its favor. Compare this to Mega Mawile, a Pokemon it shares rank with, who trades in Defiant for similar power in its respective Dark moves, STAB Fairy to counteract Mandibuzz, and the bulk to survive a bad guess. If Bisharp should be boosted in rank for the benefits its optimal partner provides, then Fairy Cycle should receive due consideration as well, considering the offensive synergy between Mega Mawile and Rotom-W is absolutely ridiculous.

Even if Bisharp switches in at +2, it's still a Bisharp. Your hazards are removed and you're not guaranteed a sweep or KO. That's not a fair trade off.

Clearly, Bisharp has some important roles in OU that nothing else can quite fulfill, but I'd expect a bit more offensively and defensively from a Pokemon that would be on the cusp of S. Its low speed, low bulk, and dependence on a pretty risky priority attack aren't flaws that can be swept under a rug for an A+ Pokemon.

 

[Arcticblast]

Constantly saying Excadrill is the "best spinner in OU" is a bit annoying now. In a sense, it's one of the worst defensive spinner, and is the best offenive spinner only because it's the only offensive spinner

Starmie is crying in a corner somewhere.

 

[Kushalos]

I really think Keldeo should stay in A, despite its UU status, it is still one of the BEST wallbreakers in the tier. A lot of common sweepers appreciates its wallbreaking and have really good synergy with Keldeo like Mega-Pinsir, Mega-Charizard X and Bisharp. Even though Mega-Venusaur is everywhere, Keldeo can even sweep a lot of defensive teams. Especially the CM set with Hydro Pump, Secret Sword and HP Flying, which i havent seen being used at all, can make huge holes in all the stall teams you currently see on the ladder. (btw dont use Choice Scarf Keldeo anymore that is just bad lol)

 

[lalala45]

Constantly saying Excadrill is the "best spinner in OU" is a bit annoying now. In a sense, it's one of the worst defensive spinner, and is the best offenive spinner only because it's the only offensive spinner (less you want to count hitmonlee). Switching in is still far from easy, so spinning is far from reliable. If you use donphan, you'll actually see spinning opportunities are higher, though of course excadrill is still a much better pokemon. (sry for donphan mention but its true)

I'd say the mold breaker set spin is good in theory, but not that great in practice. It relies heavily on balloon for added reliability. B+/A- imo.

What is totally underrated is the LO sand rush set which just obliterates unprepared teams. Iron head is an incredible addition, and if it actually had access to gen5 there never would have been controversy lasting 5 nominations for suspect testing- it would have been banned instantly. But since it isn't used much (has to be paired with smooth rock TTar or Hippo) I'll just say A- rank

Also jumping on the conk+keldeo in A- train

I second this response, if more offensive spinners were common such as swift swim kabutops and swift swim armaldo as well as things like hitmonlee, excadrill would actually have some sort of competition. Steel/ground is just weak to many common attacking types that an air balloon is only a temporary solution, and even if you do have items such as assault vest, you are still taking a lot of damage just to get a spin off because of his average bulk, when clearly they could always set their hazards up again if they choose to. Doesn't seem like a fair trade off to me. Excadrill is still a good pokemon, I acknowledge that, but I think its being given too much credit than it really deserves. A- like he said.

 

[MCBarrett]

How are people saying that Keldeo needs to drop .-.

Choice Specs Keldeo is one of the strongest Wallbreakers in the game and very very few pokes can take hits from hit. Water resists are few and far between in this meta and with Scald or the correct Hidden Power Keldeo can still severely cripple its best switch ins such as Azumarill and Mega Venusaur. Keldeo has become one of the main points of emphasis in team building since it will destroy any team without appropriate water resists (Rotom-W does not count as Secret Sword is a guaranteed 2hko after SR and Lefties and Hydro Pump has a 17.6% chance to 2hko after SR and Lefties).

Not only is Keldeo amazing in it's own right but it pairs beautifully with some of the tiers top threats. Keldeo can easily switch in on Aegislash's main checks and counters such as Heatran, Hippowdon and Mandibuzz to threaten them out with Specs Hydro which OHKO's all 3 after SR damage. On the subject of Aegislash, it along with other relevant OU threats such as Bisharp and Tyranitar, can be paired with Keldeo as Pursuit Trappers to take care of its most common switch-in in Lati@s. And of course, like Kushalos mentioned the CM+3 Attacks set is very good and can take out weakened stall teams quite easily after one CM boost (+1 LO HP Flying is a guaranteed 2hko to max SpD M-Venu after SR). With all that being said Keldeo is one of the top threats in the current metagame and is one of the threats that I am always thinking about while team building. For these reasons I believe Keldeo should be moved up to A+ Ranking.

 

[Salemance]

I second this response, if more offensive spinners were common such as swift swim kabutops and swift swim armaldo as well as things like hitmonlee, excadrill would actually have some sort of competition. Steel/ground is just weak to many common attacking types that an air balloon is only a temporary solution, and even if you do have items such as assault vest, you are still taking a lot of damage just to get a spin off because of his average bulk, when clearly they could always set their hazards up again if they choose to. Doesn't seem like a fair trade off to me. Excadrill is still a good pokemon, I acknowledge that, but I think its being given too much credit than it really deserves. A- like he said.

It may also be that he is one of the easier spinners to get in. I would love to see more Kabutops, but a guy with dual immunities is able to get in more often than not (than we compare weaknesses and yah...)

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Constantly saying Excadrill is the "best spinner in OU" is a bit annoying now. In a sense, it's one of the worst defensive spinner, and is the best offenive spinner only because it's the only offensive spinner (less you want to count hitmonlee). Switching in is still far from easy, so spinning is far from reliable. If you use donphan, you'll actually see spinning opportunities are higher, though of course excadrill is still a much better pokemon. (sry for donphan mention but its true)

I'd say the mold breaker set spin is good in theory, but not that great in practice. It relies heavily on balloon for added reliability. B+/A- imo.

What is totally underrated is the LO sand rush set which just obliterates unprepared teams. Iron head is an incredible addition, and if it actually had access to gen5 there never would have been controversy lasting 5 nominations for suspect testing- it would have been banned instantly. But since it isn't used much (has to be paired with smooth rock TTar or Hippo) I'll just say A- rank

Also jumping on the conk+keldeo in A- train

this is the truest thing I've ever heard since I've been on here. Excadrill is not the end all be all spinner and you are 100 percent right with the donphan comparison, but that can extend to any spinner personally. Excadrill has hugely exploitable weaknesses that other spinners honestly don't have to deal with. I second a-\b+ for the mole

 

[Impy]

I think Keldeo should stay where it is. It's got amazing stats, but the nature of its movepool means something will always wall it. Of all the pokemon in OU, its movepool might be the worst.

Shame about that attack stat, or it could run all kinds of physical sets.

 

[Little Hulk]

I really think that Conkeldurr should be moved up to A+ rank. With Assault Vest, the amount of special hits it can tank now is nothing short of incredible.

Below are some calculations to show just how bulky Conk is with his signature 6th gen AV set.

In addition to the gift of Assault Vest, the Knock off buff has made switching into Conk incredibly painful to deal with, and there are VERY few mons that would dare switch in, lest they want to become partially crippled by the loss of their item. (mega-venu is one of the "safer" switch-ins, but must watch out for Ice Punch on the switch before mega-evolving).

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 288-338 (69.5 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 460-542 (182.5 - 215%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Alakazam, with insanely powerful psychic STAB, and some of the highest SP Atk in the tier, cannot OHKO conkeldurr with a STAB + Super Effective hit.
Even after coming in on stealth rock, and a layer of spikes, Conk STILL has only a 6.3% chance of getting ohko'd.

Another Calculation:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 315-372 (76 - 89.8%)
VS.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 416-492 (130 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Keep in mind that's a PLUS Sp. Atk Landorus with SHEER FORCE boost AND life orb AND a Super Effective hit on Conkeldurr.
Conk tanks the hit, retaliating with the guaranteed K.O. and needs 2 or 3 switches in to Stealth Rocks for Landorus to even have a chance at all to OHKO.

Even better, Conkeldurr with Guts can act as a MASTER status absorber, boosting his attacking stats to extreme levels and often times becoming the eternal hell of stall teams that relies on status' (Burn/Toxic) to put down certain threats.

The combination of AV, Knock Off, and Guts make Conkeldurr a VERY dangerous Pokemon this generation, one that is nearly impossible to safely switch into, which is why I think he deserves to be ranked an A+ Mon.

 

[Baharoth]

Conks big problem is that he gets worn down very quickly. His only recovery is Drain Punch and that move isnt realy spamable. Most of the time u will have to use something else to hit the expected switch in and even if he gets to use Drain Punch it will mostly be against stuff with solid physical defense so the amount of healing that he gets is rather low. Catching burns/poison all the time makes that even worse. I realy like Conk and wouldnt want to miss him on my team but A is perfectly fine for him.

 

[Salemance]

I really think that Conkeldurr should be moved up to A+ rank. With Assault Vest, the amount of special hits it can tank now is nothing short of incredible.

Below are some calculations to show just how bulky Conk is with his signature 6th gen AV set.

In addition to the gift of Assault Vest, the Knock off buff has made switching into Conk incredibly painful to deal with, and there are VERY few mons that would dare switch in, lest they want to become partially crippled by the loss of their item. (mega-venu is one of the "safer" switch-ins, but must watch out for Ice Punch on the switch before mega-evolving).

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 288-338 (69.5 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 460-542 (182.5 - 215%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Alakazam, with insanely powerful psychic STAB, and some of the highest SP Atk in the tier, cannot OHKO conkeldurr with a STAB + Super Effective hit.
Even after coming in on stealth rock, and a layer of spikes, Conk STILL has only a 6.3% chance of getting ohko'd.

Another Calculation:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 315-372 (76 - 89.8%)
VS.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 416-492 (130 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Keep in mind that's a PLUS Sp. Atk Landorus with SHEER FORCE boost AND life orb AND a Super Effective hit on Conkeldurr.
Conk tanks the hit, retaliating with the guaranteed K.O. and needs 2 or 3 switches in to Stealth Rocks for Landorus to even have a chance at all to OHKO.

Even better, Conkeldurr with Guts can act as a MASTER status absorber, boosting his attacking stats to extreme levels and often times becoming the eternal hell of stall teams that relies on status' (Burn/Toxic) to put down certain threats.

The combination of AV, Knock Off, and Guts make Conkeldurr a VERY dangerous Pokemon this generation, one that is nearly impossible to safely switch into, which is why I think he deserves to be ranked an A+ Mon.

No one denies the prowress of his AV set, yet that is one the reasons it is been said to be moving down.

The metagame has ADAPTED to fight his now infamous set. Where once it was unexpected, its now the guarantee for most Conk, meaning that he will be harder pressed to fulfill his duties than before. Why it is still great, it has been able to be countered significantly (of course, most ran Psyshock for Chansey/Blisseg anyway but that's beside the point) thus making it not as threatening as it once was.

 

[sonnytapman]

I think Keldeo should stay where it is. It's got amazing stats, but the nature of its movepool means something will always wall it. Of all the pokemon in OU, its movepool might be the worst.

Shame about that attack stat, or it could run all kinds of physical sets.

Then again, that's what Secret Sword is for.

Subject 18 Edit: Removed nomination of Magmortar.

 

[Little Hulk]

Conks big problem is that he gets worn down very quickly. His only recovery is Drain Punch and that move isnt realy spamable. Most of the time u will have to use something else to hit the expected switch in and even if he gets to use Drain Punch it will mostly be against stuff with solid physical defense so the amount of healing that he gets is rather low. Catching burns/poison all the time makes that even worse. I realy like Conk and wouldnt want to miss him on my team but A is perfectly fine for him.

One of the reasons I think that Conk is so dangerous in this current meta is that with AV he's one of the best existing checks to Thundurus(thundurbolt is a 3hko), Heatran (can't burn, fire blast/flamethrower/lava plume are all 3hko's) Sure he lacks reliable recovery, but he has better reliable recovery than every other Pokemon in A+ rank (excluding Mega- Venu, Talonflame and Kyu-B. who all get a 50% recovery move). 7 out of 10 of the mons in A+ rank get worse reliable recovery than Drain Punch provides Conk with. Therefore, I think it is a flawed argument to say that Conkeldurr shouldn't be A+ rank simply because he does not get the most reliable recovery available. Especially when his recovery options are greater than 70% of the A+ section.

I think he would fit nicely in the A+ section because of the power he has to make people think twice about switching, and his ability to check top threats this gen such as Thundurus and Heatran, which I mentioned above.

 

[Little Hulk]

No one denies the prowress of his AV set, yet that is one the reasons it is been said to be moving down.

The metagame has ADAPTED to fight his now infamous set. Where once it was unexpected, its now the guarantee for most Conk, meaning that he will be harder pressed to fulfill his duties than before. Why it is still great, it has been able to be countered significantly (of course, most ran Psyshock for Chansey/Blisseg anyway but that's beside the point) thus making it not as threatening as it once was.

While I agree with you about it being expected, I'd also like to point out that the calculation uses Psychic, not Psyshock. BTW, neither are a OHKO on Conk regardless of Srocks being present or not.

I do see your point, that people are basically shaping their teams to help better prepare for it. In this case it can be argued that Conk deserved a spot in A+ because it is inherently shaping the Meta to favorably counter its best set. I could see it as being a low A+ mon.

I think Conk would place well in A+, but I'm on the fence with both Salemance and Baharoth that A ranking is the best fit for him. Definitely still feel like he's an A+ mon, but I understand the viewpoints holding him to an A ranking.

 

[DestinyGallade]

I really think that Conkeldurr should be moved up to A+ rank. With Assault Vest, the amount of special hits it can tank now is nothing short of incredible.

Below are some calculations to show just how bulky Conk is with his signature 6th gen AV set.

In addition to the gift of Assault Vest, the Knock off buff has made switching into Conk incredibly painful to deal with, and there are VERY few mons that would dare switch in, lest they want to become partially crippled by the loss of their item. (mega-venu is one of the "safer" switch-ins, but must watch out for Ice Punch on the switch before mega-evolving).

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 288-338 (69.5 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 460-542 (182.5 - 215%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Alakazam, with insanely powerful psychic STAB, and some of the highest SP Atk in the tier, cannot OHKO conkeldurr with a STAB + Super Effective hit.
Even after coming in on stealth rock, and a layer of spikes, Conk STILL has only a 6.3% chance of getting ohko'd.

Another Calculation:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 315-372 (76 - 89.8%)
VS.
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 416-492 (130 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Keep in mind that's a PLUS Sp. Atk Landorus with SHEER FORCE boost AND life orb AND a Super Effective hit on Conkeldurr.
Conk tanks the hit, retaliating with the guaranteed K.O. and needs 2 or 3 switches in to Stealth Rocks for Landorus to even have a chance at all to OHKO.

Even better, Conkeldurr with Guts can act as a MASTER status absorber, boosting his attacking stats to extreme levels and often times becoming the eternal hell of stall teams that relies on status' (Burn/Toxic) to put down certain threats.

The combination of AV, Knock Off, and Guts make Conkeldurr a VERY dangerous Pokemon this generation, one that is nearly impossible to safely switch into, which is why I think he deserves to be ranked an A+ Mon.

true dat. I used be able to compare gallade to conk thanks to gallades great sp.def but thanks to AV conk outclasses gallade in every single way. :'(

 

[Jukain]

Can we not bring up Donphan in a serious OU discussion? Please, thank you.

That said Exca is fine in A. It is the best spinner (and Scarfer tbh) in the tier, but it has a lot of weaknesses to contend with, mostly stemming from the fact that it isn't that fast and that Rock Slide/Iron Head are on the weak side. It's not really impossible to spinblock either; things like Balloon Aegi (which is growing in popularity) and DBond (even sash) Gar are great for HO, which is all that really needs a spinblocker in this day and age. Even if you lack one of these, proper pressure can keep your hazards on the field due to its various weaknesses. Being by far the best viable spinner keeps it in A (and it's versatile), but it shouldn't move up.

Keldeo is really strong, but offensive checks like the Latis, and defensive checks like Mega Venu, are common enough to limit it. If you look at A+ Pokemon, we have things with definite roles, they are the best in their class but limited by other things: Deo-S the hazard setter, Garchomp the SR setter/SD sweeper/wallbreaker, Venu + Tran the best walls, Kyurem-B the best wallbreaker, Lando-I the monster destructive, versatile special attacker, Lando-T the SR-setting pivot, Manaphy the stupidly ridiculous to deal with special sweeper, Rotom-W the general check/pivot, and Talonflame the premier RKer. Keldeo is a really strong special attacker, but it isn't at the level of these OU staples, such that it should be moved up to A+. I talked to some people (Subject18, Gary2346) and they agree; Keldeo is good in A. A- is lol, but A+ is just not fitting.

 

[Salemance]

While I agree with you about it being expected, I'd also like to point out that the calculation uses Psychic, not Psyshock. BTW, neither are a OHKO on Conk regardless of Srocks being present or not.

I do see your point, that people are basically shaping their teams to help better prepare for it. In this case it can be argued that Conk deserved a spot in A+ because it is inherently shaping the Meta to favorably counter its best set. I could see it as being a low A+ mon.

I think Conk would place well in A+, but I'm on the fence with both Salemance and Baharoth that A ranking is the best fit for him. Definitely still feel like he's an A+ mon, but I understand the viewpoints holding him to an A ranking.

While I agree that could be a great point, but that was also some of the arguments leveled at M-Venu (multiple factors there, but that's beside the point) and its also the fact that as Conk, he would much rather worry over PHYSICAL attacks considering this is the metagame of Brave Bird, thus meaning his now great special bulk is useless. I am for either or, but food for thought.

Subject 18 Edit: Removed mentions of Magmortar

 

[XZ2H3000]

One of the reasons I think that Conk is so dangerous in this current meta is that with AV he's one of the best existing checks to Thundurus(thundurbolt is a 3hko), Heatran (can't burn, fire blast/flamethrower/lava plume are all 3hko's) Sure he lacks reliable recovery, but he has better reliable recovery than every other Pokemon in A+ rank (excluding Mega- Venu, Talonflame and Kyu-B. who all get a 50% recovery move). 7 out of 10 of the mons in A+ rank get worse reliable recovery than Drain Punch provides Conk with. Therefore, I think it is a flawed argument to say that Conkeldurr shouldn't be A+ rank simply because he does not get the most reliable recovery available. Especially when his recovery options are greater than 70% of the A+ section.

I think he would fit nicely in the A+ section because of the power he has to make people think twice about switching, and his ability to check top threats this gen such as Thundurus and Heatran, which I mentioned above.

Conkeldurr suffer from quite an ammount of problems though. .

First off, it gets worn down very quickly, due to lacking reliable recovery (DP isn't very reliable, when facing a low health opponent or a poké with low HP (see: Rotom-W) it won't heal a lot) and guts.

On the subject of Guts, 99% of the time it HAS to be your ability, or else you get crippled by will-o-wisp (and Rotom-W being everywhere doesn't help Conk) and you gain nothing from toxic, not to mention that paralysis is a thing.

Also, it's power is quite meh, lacking a boosting item or a boosting move due to AV, when topped with the relative low power of his moves, just doesn't cut it most of the time, with Conk having to rely on SE hits and Guts to patch up it's disappointing power. It's low speed haunts it too, it just can't retaliate against fast foes that have enough bulk to were Mach Punch doesn't really harm em', or simply resist the move, and can 2HKO, or with prior damage, OHKO him while he can't do nothing.

And finally, like many said before, the meta has adapted to it's AV set, which based your promotion to A+ on. Special attackers like Greninja and Landorus-I use Psychic type moves to deal with him and other pokes like Mega-Venu, and Talonflame is a thing, and Conkeldurr just can't deal with it. It also has a bit of a 4MSS, the most common set is Drain Punch/Mach Punch/Knock Off/Ice Punch, while this is fine and dandy, it can't deal with most fairies, it can't, some examples:

Sylveon: Can easily chip him down with Pixilate Hyper Voice, and Drain Punch doesn't heal enough, ice punch doesn't do enough

Togekiss: It can ice punch, but it can paraflinch him to death

Azumarill: Eats anything, outspeeds and kills with Play Rough

Clefable: It can just set up it its face


While Conk has Poison Jab to deal with them, then comes the trouble. It NEEDS Drain Punch because it's his most reliable STAB due to recovery, it needs Mach Punch necause without it its useless against faster foes, Knock Off deals with any Psychics and it's too useful to pass up, and Ice Punch allows him to deal with flying types, and pokémon that will normally wall him to hell and back, such as Gliscor, Landorus-T and Hippowdon, to say a few, so it's a hard choice, it also has Rock Slide to hit Talonflame on the switch and get rid of it's biggest fear, but that ain't as important.

Honestly i'd say AV Conkeldurr isn't as good as people made him to be once, as the meta as adapted to it, and it doesn't hit hard enough, it's pitifully slow, and it can easily be worn down. Also other Conk sets such as Bulk Up and Sheer Force attacker are definitely not as good as they we're last gen (heck, even last gen Conk was C+) due to it's pitiful speed, lack of special bulk, and there being better attackers out there, overall, i'd say Conkeldurr is in no way derserving of an A+ rank, and an A one at that. I'd say B for it

 

[Aragorn the King]

Subject 18 Edit: Removed mentions of Magmortar.

Conkeldurr suffer from quite an ammount of problems though. .

First off, it gets worn down very quickly, due to lacking reliable recovery (DP isn't very reliable, when facing a low health opponent or a poké with low HP (see: Rotom-W) it won't heal a lot) and guts.

On the subject of Guts, 99% of the time it HAS to be your ability, or else you get crippled by will-o-wisp (and Rotom-W being everywhere doesn't help Conk) and you gain nothing from toxic, not to mention that paralysis is a thing.

Also, it's power is quite meh, lacking a boosting item or a boosting move due to AV, when topped with the relative low power of his moves, just doesn't cut it most of the time, with Conk having to rely on SE hits and Guts to patch up it's disappointing power. It's low speed haunts it too, it just can't retaliate against fast foes that have enough bulk to were Mach Punch doesn't really harm em', or simply resist the move, and can 2HKO, or with prior damage, OHKO him while he can't do nothing.

And finally, like many said before, the meta has adapted to it's AV set, which based your promotion to A+ on. Special attackers like Greninja and Landorus-I use Psychic type moves to deal with him and other pokes like Mega-Venu, and Talonflame is a thing, and Conkeldurr just can't deal with it. It also has a bit of a 4MSS, the most common set is Drain Punch/Mach Punch/Knock Off/Ice Punch, while this is fine and dandy, it can't deal with most fairies, it can't, some examples:

Sylveon: Can easily chip him down with Pixilate Hyper Voice, and Drain Punch doesn't heal enough, ice punch doesn't do enough

Togekiss: It can ice punch, but it can paraflinch him to death

Azumarill: Eats anything, outspeeds and kills with Play Rough

Clefable: It can just set up it its face


While Conk has Poison Jab to deal with them, then comes the trouble. It NEEDS Drain Punch because it's his most reliable STAB due to recovery, it needs Mach Punch necause without it its useless against faster foes, Knock Off deals with any Psychics and it's too useful to pass up, and Ice Punch allows him to deal with flying types, and pokémon that will normally wall him to hell and back, such as Gliscor, Landorus-T and Hippowdon, to say a few, so it's a hard choice, it also has Rock Slide to hit Talonflame on the switch and get rid of it's biggest fear, but that ain't as important.

Honestly i'd say AV Conkeldurr isn't as good as people made him to be once, as the meta as adapted to it, and it doesn't hit hard enough, it's pitifully slow, and it can easily be worn down. Also other Conk sets such as Bulk Up and Sheer Force attacker are definitely not as good as they we're last gen (heck, even last gen Conk was C+) due to it's pitiful speed, lack of special bulk, and there being better attackers out there, overall, i'd say Conkeldurr is in no way derserving of an A+ rank, and an A one at that. I'd say B for it

It seems you're being to harsh. Unless you're blissey/mega aggron, a defensive pokemon's merits shouldn't only revolve around hits it's weak to. It has its flaws, sure, but B rank is in my opinion too low for a great special tank. B+ is what it should be, at worst, but I think A- fits it the most.

 

[Jukain]

Magmortar is shit in OU please just don't.

Alright. Mamoswine is not A in this meta. It is a good Pokemon, no doubt. Strong EQ, SR, and STAB Ice Shard are all very big pros. However, the meta has become less kind to it. With threats such as Manaphy, Kyurem-B, Keldeo, Mega Charizard, etc. very common, Mamoswine is finding a hard time. The Ice Shard-weak offensive threats are now bulkier: Pinsir can take one (or just +2 QA it to death), Zard X is a Dragon not weak to Ice, YacheChomp is common, Latias/Latios can take one...I understand it is an RKing tool, but these Pokemon are common threats that can take an Ice Shard and continue to sweep. Pokemon like Talonflame, Balloon Exca, Rotom-W, Greninja, etc. just make its life really hard, bringing it down this gen. A- at best, I see B+ as reasonable.

Also...Tyranitar in A? It is top-tier atm, with numerous viable sets. The DD Mega set is one of the most threatening OU sweepers atm, and AV a sturdy special tank that handles many top-tier special threats. Besides these two sets there is SR tank w/ Lefties or Chople, good old hard-hitter CB, and Scarf. Smooth Rock Tar is also very good to support Sand Rush Exca and Sand Force MegaChomp/Lando. Tyranitar's versatility, strength, and utility make it a clear A+ in this metagame.

 

[Salemance]

Note, He 2HKO's in a very situational circumstances, as in having a maxed out attack, and the aforementioned Heatran having the minimum possible defense. Also, yes, we can give him an analysis. He hasn't had one as far as I can tell. Serebii's doing a POTW on him this week, if that's what you mean.

Oh that's great. But we aren't serebii

and I mean he has to have one made or up to be made. Like sY Donphan was up for discussion cause he had one but thrown away due to his analysis getting rejected.