If there's no proof you can't assert it, so they were not killed 'through Russia'.
Can we change the title please? Drop the word 'War' and change 'Ukraine' to 'Crimea' since Russia obviously hasn't taken the entirety of Ukraine...
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Serious Crimean war (Russia seizing Ukraine). Discussion and thoughts?
- Thread starter VanguardSoul
- Start date
Can we change the title please? Drop the word 'War' and change 'Ukraine' to 'Crimea' since Russia obviously hasn't taken the entirety of Ukraine...
The answer to this is simple. Most countries will have the intelligence to not get involved with this unless Ukraine or Russia do something incredibly stupid. And I'm pretty sure they are both aware that if they involve China or U.S or any other big country in this the situation could possibly erupt into a worldwide problem. Believe it or not some countries are more intelligent then they seem.
I never changed Ukraine to Crimea... The comment you responded to didn't even mention Crimea... wtf dude.. Get your facts straight come on. And when this thread was created everyone was worried about a Crimean war so ergo why it's called that.... And anyone with a brain can figure out that Russia controlled Ukraine up to this point. I mean it's not hard to figure out... Or even look up...
There's no proof, but there's no arguing that. OK buddy, may I suggest Al Jazeera? Unlike Fox, it's actually an objective news reporting organization instead of a sensationalizing propaganda mechanism.
Wow, you somehow managed to outdo the OP in bullshit. Especially since Al-Jazeera isn't even privately owned and subject to power struggles. Hell, Al-Jazeera doesn't even know its own bias; sometimes they censor content that American handlers don't like, sometimes they like to denounce American foreign policy. Staff have resigned over bias.
It's both hilarious and sad when people say "CNN/Fox/etc suck so much, enter foreign/internet news source here are so much better!" when they're not, they're just a different perspective than what people are fed daily. It's really whose viewpoint you're more sympathetic to, but I stress that objective journalism doesn't really exist in this day and age. I don't blame you for finding it sympathetic since they tend to hold populist "fuck the man!" views.
I know it's not 100% applicable to these events but I could not let that comment stand.
I'll second that... Albeit in a less harsh form. Point of view is everything.
I watch CBC... It's Canadian. I find it's a lot less bias than Fox and some other major American programs. In my opinion. Their point of view comes across as Russia is being slightly harsh, but they do try to get both sides of the story, which I like. There's always more than one side to a story, or a viewpoint.
I don't think you picked up on the hint of cynicism in my post, I was mocking the OP for his one-sided interpretation by juxtaposing his Fox-like interpretations with what I personally feel is a source that contrasts those opinions best. I think it's pretty obvious that Al-Jazeewa is biased towards anti-bureaucracy sympathizers and such. In any case, it's important to take a look at reports from both sides of the extremes. Evidently, the OP has not done that.
About 60% of Ukraine does not qualify as Russia's 'people'. So they don't really have the right to "protect" their "people" if they aren't in their country.
Well seeing as the ukrainian government is pro-russian anyway, I don't see Russia doing any harm by deploying troops there to stop the riots.
If I can 'look it up' wouldn't there be evidence for it? Until you provide sufficient evidence it cannot be treated as fact that Russia instigated this. The protesters, who are the ones doing the killing, are in favour of Tymoshenko, who is far more Western-looking.
What I mean with regards to the title, Russia has not seized Ukraine, making it factually incorrect. Nor has there been a war and nor was anyone except the right-wing media expecting a war. Check the poll above, please, to see that most of the users who have voted don't think there will be a war either. Change it to reflect the facts, please, as the difference between Ukraine (a whole country) and Crimea (a bit of a country) is quite large. I'm asking you to change it, not saying that you have already changed it.
If we're talking 'facts', a word you're using liberally, Russia has seized Crimea, not Ukraine.
You're forgetting that Crimea actually asked for Russia's intervention.
I'm not forgetting at all. Crimea can do what it wants. I think you're forgetting that the fact that they've moved into the rest of Ukraine as well against their will could be considered an act of war. Tell me; how has Russia NOT seized Ukraine? I think taking over with military units counts as 'seizing'.
They're threatening Ukraine with military action. I think most people see a problem with that.
Never mind that it's actually illegal to deploy troops in another country without the consent of the UNSC. With the Budapest Memorandum in 1993 Russia signed an agreement to respect the borders of Ukraine. Sending troops into Ukraine without the consent of either the UNSC, nor the internationally recognized interim government of Ukraine constitutes a gross violation of that treaty.
Also, there was significant voting fraud involved when the Crimean parliament decided to denounce the Kyiv government and declare a local criminal its prime minister. Several of the representatives who allegedly voted for separation according to protocols, weren't present at the meeting. On the other hand, Russian soldiers were there, watching the show with weapons in hand. And the referendum they are supposed to have on Sunday is kind of fishy too. The alternatives are "Join Russia now" or "Go back to the 1992 constitution of Crimea and its relation to Ukraine". However, the 1992 constitution of Crimea, later nullified by the Kyiv government (a decision anchored in the 1993 Budapest memorandum) declared Crimea independent. Staying part of Ukraine is thus not even an option in the referendum. It's "Join Russia now", or "Declare independence and then join Russia". Looks like it'll break apart no matter what. Perhaps that's the reason why Russian troops are already building border posts and burying land mines along the roads between Crimea and mainland Ukraine.
Russia sending troops without insignia also qualifies as a minor war crime. Technically speaking, the masked, and suspiciously well-equipped, troops in Crimea are unlawful combattants and not protected by the Geneva convention. As for protecting the people of Crimea, they didn't do a very thorough job, seeing as houses of Crimean Tatars (generally considered to be pro-Ukrainian) were vandalized by painting large X-es over their doors. The Crimean Tatars would have been the ethnic majority on the peninsula, hadn't they all been deported under Stalin's rule in a single night in 1954 (those who live there now are descendants of those, after they were allowed to return to Crimea in 1988). The deportion to Uzbekistan killed almost half the Tatars, and started when Soviet soldiers broke through their doors in the middle of the night. How did the soldiers know which doors to break through? Why, the doors where Crimean Tatars lived were marked by large X-es.
As for the overthrowing of Yanukovych, well, that's a complicated matter. It was technically illegal under the current Ukrainian constitution, which Yanukovych pushed through in 2010. It extended the powers of the president, and made it harder to impeach him, among other things. However, according to the deal signed by both the government and the rebels, signed on February 21, the 2010 constitution of Ukraine was officially to be scrapped and the 2004 "Orange Revolution" constitution immediately reinstated. The decision passed through the legally elected parliament of Ukraine, but lacked Yanukovych's own signature to be officially approved.
However, things got too "hot" for Yanukovych, who fled the country before he could sign the constitution swap. He was impeached shortly thereafter, through absolutely legal means according to the 2004 constitution. However, technically this constitution wasn't in effect at the time of impeachment, but the only thing preventing it from being in effect was that it lacked the approval of the impeached president. A complicated case, indeed.
Keep in mind that it was democratically elected officials who voted Yanukovych down. The composition of the Parliament didn't change during the Maidan protests, these representatives were all voted in during the last election. It's just that a lot of Yanukovych's supporters were absent from the voting, thus making the opposition the majority when the vote was cast. Still, enough MPs remained to make the vote legal according to Ukrainian law.
Last, Russia seems very eager to stand up for Crimea's right to follow the will of its people, its right to declare independence if the population so desires. A few hundred kilometres from Crimea lies Ingushetia and Chechnya, two Russian republics which have fought bloody wars for independence for decades, and where less than 2 % of the population are ethnically Russian. Looks like the Russian support for independence is restricted to regions who want freedom to join Russia, not to leave it. Want to go the route of "Crimea was historically a part of Russia" instead? Well, that's certainly not the case for East Prussia. If recent historical connections are so important, why don't Russia give back Kaliningrad to Germany?
F-ing hypocrisy, that's why.
The U. S. And Great Britain and Russia agreed to a treaty in 1994 which let's Ukraine keep all of its territories, and NO FOREIGN GOVERNMENT can change that. The Crimean Problem is a major problem, and either Russia will back down or WW3 will happen(probably). But a third option is possible. Russia May get Crimea, this might get ignored for a while until the domino theory happens. One by one, East Europe May fall to Russian influence. A recent news article I read said "Russia is back to playing the game it once played... They are using policies and tactics that lead to the.... Formation of the Soviet Union..." Either the U. S., Great Britain, and the rest of NATO/ the EU will realize this soon enough and attack, or Eastern Europe might be doomed.
I don't think this will escalate into something as serious as World War III - I still remember when Russia tried to invade Georgia and nothing rose up out of that.
Unless Russia does something stupidly drastic like a nuclear attack or something, I don't think anyone will take the risk of intervention. Putin's a dick, yes, but it's not worth throwing away more human lives than necessary over.
The Domino theory is a pretty dangerous mindset when it comes to international matters. Look what happened in Vietnam. As Pro-American as I am, even I agree that was just a generally stupid thing of us to do.
Unless Russia does something stupidly drastic like a nuclear attack or something, I don't think anyone will take the risk of intervention. Putin's a dick, yes, but it's not worth throwing away more human lives than necessary over.
The Domino theory is a pretty dangerous mindset when it comes to international matters. Look what happened in Vietnam. As Pro-American as I am, even I agree that was just a generally stupid thing of us to do.
Hello!
I’ve got some video information you may wanna look. This one will clarify some things about the 20th february Ukraine massacre. Most of the mass media tells us that this was the fault of the government, but it’s not.
And this video will prove it.
Maidan The truth behind the February 20 massacre Part 1
Most of the mass media do not show the whole picture of the events as they should.
Seems that some people in Ukraine used that lie and faulty information to fool the people and to destroy the legitimate government. The US and the EU politicians used Nazis to accomplish their own interests against Russia. And now those terrorists kill innocent civilians that are denying the new government. Most of mass media claim that all this thing is Russia fault, they keep telling everyone that Ukraine territory is invaded by the russian troops. But they forget to mention that there is a special contract between Russia and Ukraine that states that russian military bases could be situated on the territory of the Crimea island. It’s absolutely legal.
I’m just tired of all that lie, I just want people to know the truth.
Please show this video to your friends, don't let the Nazis destroy the Ukraine.
The original video had more than 2 000 000 views, it was translated to show you what was really happened.
I’ve got some video information you may wanna look. This one will clarify some things about the 20th february Ukraine massacre. Most of the mass media tells us that this was the fault of the government, but it’s not.
And this video will prove it.
Maidan The truth behind the February 20 massacre Part 1
Most of the mass media do not show the whole picture of the events as they should.
Seems that some people in Ukraine used that lie and faulty information to fool the people and to destroy the legitimate government. The US and the EU politicians used Nazis to accomplish their own interests against Russia. And now those terrorists kill innocent civilians that are denying the new government. Most of mass media claim that all this thing is Russia fault, they keep telling everyone that Ukraine territory is invaded by the russian troops. But they forget to mention that there is a special contract between Russia and Ukraine that states that russian military bases could be situated on the territory of the Crimea island. It’s absolutely legal.
I’m just tired of all that lie, I just want people to know the truth.
Please show this video to your friends, don't let the Nazis destroy the Ukraine.
The original video had more than 2 000 000 views, it was translated to show you what was really happened.
