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Most Zapdos(es) I'm seeing is 252 HP / 192+ Def / 64 SpA, basically because it can still take hits better than Rotom-W from Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, has more reliable recovery, and can actually KO Mega Pinsir with Thunderbolt with 64 SpA investment, while bring Defog support which Rotom-W cannot bring, and moreover it can Toxic which Rotom-W cannot afford, though Rotom-W packs WoW, it's still not good enough to justify using it over Zapdos, especially when Zapdos is not a set-up fodder for the likes of Bisharp unlike Rotom-W, because Zapdos has an ~81% chance of KOing with 64 SpA Heat Wave which is guaranteed after rocks, Rotom-W needs to WoW + Switch which gives Bisharp +4 which is monstrous even if burned, as Adamant Burned Bisharp at +4 does 74.3 - 87.5% to physical defensive Rotom-W with Knock off alone, and Rotom-W risks switching and losing an item of a teammate.
Rotom-W is up there in A while Zapdos is in B+??? Zapdos should at least be in A-, as it counters stuff Rotom-W is supposed to counter better such as Mega Pinsir and Bisharp.
252 HP / 192+ Zapdos takes 47.1 - 55.7% from CB Jolly Talonflame while 64 SpA T-Bolt is 100% chance to OHKO, Rotom-W may counter Talonflame better, but Zapdos scares off so much more things such as Ferrothorn, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, Scizor, Conkeldurr, etc. all which Rotom-W struggles with.
It also checks a lot of the dragons w/ HP Ice while Rotom-W sits there and WoWs while Garchomp can SD in it's face.
Zapdos is also one of the few Defoggers that are not afraid of Bisharp switching, in fact, it baits it only to use Heat wave in it's face.
Hydreigon shouldn't go anywhere near B especially since he's totally eclipsed by Latios, The only thing Hydreigon has over Latios (besides HP and Def but they serve as a wallbreaker as they both spam Draco Meteor) is that Hydreigon has access to Fire type moves but Latios is not only more powerful, he's faster which is HUGE considering that most threats in the meta sit around the base 100s and he Hydreigon has base 98 speed. Hydreigon doesn't deserve B or B-, at best he deserves C+.
Most Zapdos(es) I'm seeing is 252 HP / 192+ Def / 64 SpA, basically because it can still take hits better than Rotom-W from Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, has more reliable recovery, and can actually KO Mega Pinsir with Thunderbolt with 64 SpA investment, while bring Defog support which Rotom-W cannot bring, and moreover it can Toxic which Rotom-W cannot afford, though Rotom-W packs WoW, it's still not good enough to justify using it over Zapdos, especially when Zapdos is not a set-up fodder for the likes of Bisharp unlike Rotom-W, because Zapdos has an ~81% chance of KOing with 64 SpA Heat Wave which is guaranteed after rocks, Rotom-W needs to WoW + Switch which gives Bisharp +4 which is monstrous even if burned, as Adamant Burned Bisharp at +4 does 74.3 - 87.5% to physical defensive Rotom-W with Knock off alone, and Rotom-W risks switching and losing an item of a teammate.
Rotom-W is up there in A while Zapdos is in B+??? Zapdos should at least be in A-, as it counters stuff Rotom-W is supposed to counter better such as Mega Pinsir and Bisharp.
252 HP / 192+ Zapdos takes 47.1 - 55.7% from CB Jolly Talonflame while 64 SpA T-Bolt is 100% chance to OHKO, Rotom-W may counter Talonflame better, but Zapdos scares off so much more things such as Ferrothorn, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, Scizor, Conkeldurr, etc. all which Rotom-W struggles with.
It also checks a lot of the dragons w/ HP Ice while Rotom-W sits there and WoWs while Garchomp can SD in it's face.
Zapdos is also one of the few Defoggers that are not afraid of Bisharp switching, in fact, it baits it only to use Heat wave in it's face.
I fail to see how a pokemon with WoW can possibly be setup fodder. Sure you can boost through the burn but that's hardly a reliable way of dealing with WoW. How does Zapdos check Garchomp at all when Chomper has Stone Edge? It can't switch in, and assuming SE doesn't miss, it has a 72% chance of losing (no chance of winning if rocks are up) 1v1 because HP Ice doesn't KO and Chomp outspeeds, while 2HKO'ing with SE. Halving an attack stat is much better then using a 60BP move, especially against stuff like Dragonite which often carries Weakness Policy. It also has much more utility, 'cause it's not useless against everything but 4x weaknesses.
And Bisharp! Bisharp can OHKO Rotom at +2 (I think?), but it OHKOs Zapdos too. Heat Wave with 64 SpA doesn't OHKO Bisharp (though LO recoil will kill it after, resulting in a double down). Because Bisharp can deal with both Zapdos and Rotom, I'd say it can hardly be used as an argument. Though you're right about the anti-Bisharp defiant shenanigans with Defog/Heat Wave.
But what's this about an 81% chance?
64 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 234-276 (86 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Scizor falls to both Rotom and Zapdos, even if Zappy happens to OHKO Scizor hardly likes taking a Hydro Pump or Will-o-Wisp.
Despite these criticisms, I generally agree however. Zapdos is a great defogger and can deal with many relevant threats in this meta, and has good versatility. But it's not as good as Rotom-W.
EDIT: Also, why did you bring up Talonflame at all if all you're going to do is then show how Rotom counters talon better?
Hydreigon should be B rank in my opinion.
Let's not kid ourselves, it's the dragon who got hit the hardest by the introduction of fairy types, both defensively (4x weakness) and offensively (you know things are bad when Iron Tail is seriously considered as a coverage option).
However it does have a major niche compared to the other dragons, as in the one who performs the best against Mega Mawile. It doesn't really care about Intimidate since it's mostly used as a special attacker, it resists Sucker Punch and it can cleanly OHKO it with Fire Blast if it's holding a boosting item.
This is also why Latios doesn't directly outclass it even though they perform similiar roles.
I fail to see how a pokemon with WoW can possibly be setup fodder. Sure you can boost through the burn but that's hardly a reliable way of dealing with WoW. How does Zapdos check Garchomp at all when Chomper has Stone Edge? It can't switch in, and assuming SE doesn't miss, it has a 72% chance of losing (no chance of winning if rocks are up) 1v1 because HP Ice doesn't KO and Chomp outspeeds, while 2HKO'ing with SE. Halving an attack stat is much better then using a 60BP move, especially against stuff like Dragonite which often carries Weakness Policy. It also has much more utility, 'cause it's not useless against everything but 4x weaknesses.
And Bisharp! Bisharp can OHKO Rotom at +2 (I think?), but it OHKOs Zapdos too. Heat Wave with 64 SpA doesn't OHKO Bisharp (though LO recoil will kill it after, resulting in a double down). Because Bisharp can deal with both Zapdos and Rotom, I'd say it can hardly be used as an argument. Though you're right about the anti-Bisharp defiant shenanigans with Defog/Heat Wave.
But what's this about an 81% chance?
64 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 234-276 (86 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Scizor falls to both Rotom and Zapdos, even if Zappy happens to OHKO Scizor hardly likes taking a Hydro Pump or Will-o-Wisp.
Despite these criticisms, I generally agree however. Zapdos is a great defogger and can deal with many relevant threats in this meta, and has good versatility. But it's not as good as Rotom-W.
EDIT: Also, why did you bring up Talonflame at all if all you're going to do is then show how Rotom counters talon better?
As for garchomp, it was just an example that Zapdos takes regular physical moves better than Rotom-W without even max investment, I know it's not a counter unless you switch in on EQ, and even then you'd hope for a Stone Edge miss, but it was just to point out who has better physical bulk, and it's Zapdos without even fully investment:
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Zapdos: 331-391 (86.1 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
As for burn issue, it is a set up fodder because if you set up at +4 burn isn't an issue that much because it' +2 basically, so you still got what you wanted in the beginning. And even though burned, at +4 something will die.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) -- 69.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Zapdos: 187-220 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zapdos can take a sucker Punch after that and kills (after LO recoil)w/ Heat Wave, Rotom-W on other hand will burn while Bisharp sets up SD, Rotom-W can switch and Bisharp either goes for Sucker punch on Volt Switch to have a very good chance of KO-ing, uses Pursuit, or just uses SD and overkills whatever comes, I was just pointing out Zapdos is better at handling this because
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Zapdos: 308-363 (80.2 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Zapdos is faster so Bisharp has to go for Sucker Punch and with LO + Heat wave it kills. It's not extremely solid, but it's solid alright.
As for Scizor:
Rotom burns, scizor goes for SD, rotom uses Hydro Pump and does 36 - 42.7%, scizor uses SD, Hydro Pump does another 36 - 42.7%, while Bug Bite does 60.5 - 71.3% at +4 while burned, yes Rotom-W handles Scizor, but Zapdos can simply Heat Wave, get rid of it, still has full HP (Rotom-w has about 33%), and very happy floating in the air.
Personally I'd use Zapdos over other Defogers simply because I'm tired of Bisharp sweeps.
Blissey: B ---> C+
Hippowdon: B+ ---> A-
Sylveon: B ---> B+
Suicune: B ---> B+
Togekiss: B+ ---> B-
Victini: Unranked ---> B
Alakazam: B ---> B-
Jirachi: B ---> B-
Starmie: B ---> B-
Zygarde: B ---> B-
Anything else has stayed in the same rank as it was. Chansey barely didn't make it in A- in case you were wondering. Discussion is now moving to B- and C+ Pokemon, and feel free to nominate any unranked Pokemon that you think that deserves to be in those ranks.
I would like to have Kyurem moved to C- (currently C+), just because it's so outclassed by other dragons (mainly Kyu-B). I would also like to recommend moving Entei to B- because it deal really well with a lot of threatening pokes (assault vest or CB), and very few things like to switch in to it. It still has a bad movepool, and mediocre speed, but imo it should make B-
Move Galvantula down. Like way down, to C- preferably. It's such a mediocre Pokemon; bad defensive typing, horrible bulk, and mediocre unboosted power hold it back majorly. Sticky Web is not enough of a justification for it to be as high as it is, as Sticky Web really isn't that good because of all the priority, not to mention the metagame is bulkier and less reliant on Speed. Galvantula would be nowhere near viable without Sticky Web anyways.
Thundurus-T NEEDS to move up to B. Completely eclipsed by Thundurus-I? I don't think so. There's actually a multitude of sets that Thundy-T does better because of the extra power. Agility is done better because Thundy-I's increased Speed and Prankster isn't useful on such a set. Specs would be better for Thundurus-T because of the increased power, and Scarf would be better because Volt Absorb a more useful ability for pivoting. While Thundurus-I is generally a better choice, there are enough sets that Thundy-T can do better than its Incarnate counterpart that allows it to not be considered COMPLETELY outclassed by it, hence the motion to move it to B or B- at least.
Crawdaunt should move up too. Instead of repeating myself, I'll go ahead and quote a really old post I made that details why Crawdaunt is B- material.
I noticed Crawdaunt isn't on the list, and don't feel like going through 60 pages to find if a discussion on it took place. I'd like to nominate it for somewhere in the B tier for a number of reasons. Let's look at the definition of a B-tier Pokemon:
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
I bolded what really jumps out at me for Crawdaunt. While it is hard for Crawdaunt to sweep because of its frailty and low speed, it is an absolutely outstanding wall breaker. Adaptability combined with 120 base Attack and Swords Dance make it so Crawdaunt needs nothing but STAB moves to do a lot of work. A lot of the changes from Gen 5 to Gen 6 benefit Crawdaunt greatly. Steel no longer resisting Dark nullifies counters like Ferrothorn. Crabhammer and Knock Off got damage buffs this gen, the one to Knock Off being extremely significant. He also got STAB priority in Aqua Jet, making this crab's wildest dreams come true. All of these factors combined make it surprisingly easy to force a switch and either set up a Swords Dance or use Knock Off which will remove the opponent's item along with doing major damage.
At first glance, Crawdaunt may draw comparisons to Azumarill. It may be seen as inferior because its much less bulky and has a worse defensive typing. A powerful Aqua Jet is really the only thing they share, though. Azumarill is more of a bulky sweeper because of its good bulk and resistances and Crawdaunt is more of a wallbreaker, because of its sheer power and strong STAB moves, though a Crawdaunt sweep isn't impossible. One may argue that Azumarill is even a better sweeper, but it really isn't. Consider these calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 166-196 (43.2 - 51%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 224-264 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Ignore the fact that it's Abomasnow, as I'm just trying to illustrate the difference in damage and Abomasnow is the first thing that pops up in the calculator.)
As you can see, the difference in damage in both scenarios isn't too different. The fact that there's only a 15% damage difference with Crawdaunt at +2 vs Azumarill at +6 really says something about them. Plus, Azumarill will only have 75% of its bulk in a best case scenario (Sitrus Berry, no hazards) which severely hampers one of Azumarill's main advantages over Crawdaunt. Plus, Azumarill can typically only Belly Drum once a match because of the loss of Health, but Crawdaunt can come in to Swords Dance and wallbreak/sweep multiple times in a match. Azumarill sometimes might be a better choice due to better bulk and typing, but Crawdaunt plays differently most of the time.
Crawdaunt has a solid niche, is only partially outclassed by Azumarill, and is indeed extremely dangerous. This is why B rank seems appropriate for it.
Along with all of this, I'd also like to mention that Crawdaunt has very very few counters. Chesnaught is pretty much the only thing that can come in and force it out consistently. Azumarill resists both STABs, but doesn't like losing its item to Knock Off. You might also say Mega Venusaur, but then I say this:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Mega Venusaur in Rain: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Crawdaunt almost always OHKOs Mega Venusaur, one of the best walls in OU, with a resisted attack with rain, hazards, and one boost. It's not too much to ask of Crawdaunt. He deserves B- because of his nearly unrivaled power.
Some other minor mentions:
Staraptor ----> B. Essential member of bird spamming, hits like a truck with STAB Reckless Brave Birds and Double Edges.
Celebi ----> B- or B. Genesect being banned allows Celebi much more breathing room. Excellent switch in to Water-types like Rotom-W and Keldeo.
Tangrowth ----> B-. Assault Vest makes it an excellent mixed wall and pivot. Physical Wall still works because it has similar Physical Bulk to Skarmory and useful moves like Sleep Powder and Leech Seed. Regenerator is amazing for both sets.
Salamence in C rank is pretty ridiculous. Yeah there's Fairy pokemon and yeah it has competition from threats like Dragonite, Mega Charizard X and Mega Tyranitar as a sweeper. Keep in mind though that Salamence has its advantages over all of them. It's faster than Dragonite (and yes that's a big deal for a DD sweeper). It doesn't lose 50% of its health from Stealth Rock which means it's not reliant on Defog like Charizard. I'm not gonna compare it to Tyranitar because they're just too different besides being lategame sweepers. However, it has one ability which sets Salamence apart from them all, which is Moxie. It makes Salamence really efficient as a sweeper, more so than D-nite and Zard who don't always have enough power at +1 to OHKO every opponent thus having their sweeps ended abruptly. With Moxie Salamence gets more powerful as the sweep continues, making it that much harder to stop.
Also, let's not forget MixMence who again isn't outclassed by MixNite just because of Moxie. After D-nite drops a Draco Meteor it doesn't have any hard hits left while Mence can follow up with a +1 Life Orb Outrage thanks to Moxie. Again the speed helps Salamence which shows that it has a clear advantage over the slower Dragonite.
Salamence in C rank is pretty ridiculous. Yeah there's Fairy pokemon and yeah it has competition from threats like Dragonite, Mega Charizard X and Mega Tyranitar as a sweeper. Keep in mind though that Salamence has its advantages over all of them. It's faster than Dragonite (and yes that's a big deal for a DD sweeper). It doesn't lose 50% of its health from Stealth Rock which means it's not reliant on Defog like Charizard. I'm not gonna compare it to Tyranitar because they're just too different besides being lategame sweepers. However, it has one ability which sets Salamence apart from them all, which is Moxie. It makes Salamence really efficient as a sweeper, more so than D-nite and Zard who don't always have enough power at +1 to OHKO every opponent thus having their sweeps ended abruptly. With Moxie Salamence gets more powerful as the sweep continues, making it that much harder to stop.
Also, let's not forget MixMence who again isn't outclassed by MixNite just because of Moxie. After D-nite drops a Draco Meteor it doesn't have any hard hits left while Mence can follow up with a +1 Life Orb Outrage thanks to Moxie. Again the speed helps Salamence which shows that it has a clear advantage over the slower Dragonite.
In my opinion Char X completely outclasses salamence, outside of being more weak to sr and taking mega slot. It has more attack, bulk, better typing and excellent secondary stab. It even has wider movepool, and could even run double dance or even belly drum (gimmicky, but still useful) Charizard also forces mind games, because you don't know that which one it is (most of the time, sometimes it is pretty obvious)
I know he gets competition from landy t but hear me out. Krookodile has 2 major things over landy: taunt and ghost/dark resists.
when I had landy on my team I was just saying in my head "I really wish he learned taunt so I could stop the opponent from getting their hazards up." with krookodile you can stop them setting up their hazards because his 92 speed outspeeds most hazard setters (only major ones he doesn't is gliscor, deoxys-sanic and galvantula).
ghost/dark resists is pretty big given how common they are. some examples.
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 251-296 (65.7 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 139-164 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
aegislash is one of the most feared special attackers in the entire tier and krookodile doesn't give a shit, and he isn't even supposed to be a special wall. (note that -1 sacred sword only 3hko's)
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 84 HP / 252+ Def Krookodile: 113-133 (32.1 - 37.7%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Landorus-T: 308-363 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
bisharp is forced to go for sucker punch as both outspeed and 1hko with earthquake.
here is c rank's description.
Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
krookodile doesn't really have any major flaws preventing him to "wall physical attackers, set up sr and taunt stuff slower than it" and he definitely isn't completely eclipsed by landorus-t for the reasons I mentioned above.
here is b rank's description.
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
That's more like it. krookodile dies to most special attackers it doesn't resist, so it can't wall significant parts of the metagame. And it definitely is partially eclipsed by landorus-t, with being weaker, no u-turn and not having the benefits of a flying subtype
Guess I can nominate Hydreigon as much as I like and it won't make the ranking it deserves.
Like mentioned many times before, Hydreigon is suffering this gen through the special move nerf and the introduction of Fairy Typs. However, Dark typ got buffed and now it is Hydreigon's main spammable move.
With great bulk, good speed and great offensive stats Hydreigon can run a large number of sets like Specs, SpecialScarf, MixScarf, Expert Belt, Life Orb and more.
It has a large movepool on from both attacking sides like Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor, Earth Power, Earthquake, Crunch, Head Smash, Iron Tail, Flamethrower, Surf, Focus Blast, Superpower, Flash Cannon, U-Turn, making it really difficult to counter.
Salamence in C rank is pretty ridiculous. Yeah there's Fairy pokemon and yeah it has competition from threats like Dragonite, Mega Charizard X and Mega Tyranitar as a sweeper. Keep in mind though that Salamence has its advantages over all of them. It's faster than Dragonite (and yes that's a big deal for a DD sweeper). It doesn't lose 50% of its health from Stealth Rock which means it's not reliant on Defog like Charizard. I'm not gonna compare it to Tyranitar because they're just too different besides being lategame sweepers. However, it has one ability which sets Salamence apart from them all, which is Moxie. It makes Salamence really efficient as a sweeper, more so than D-nite and Zard who don't always have enough power at +1 to OHKO every opponent thus having their sweeps ended abruptly. With Moxie Salamence gets more powerful as the sweep continues, making it that much harder to stop.
Also, let's not forget MixMence who again isn't outclassed by MixNite just because of Moxie. After D-nite drops a Draco Meteor it doesn't have any hard hits left while Mence can follow up with a +1 Life Orb Outrage thanks to Moxie. Again the speed helps Salamence which shows that it has a clear advantage over the slower Dragonite.
Salamence has very little advantages over its Dragon-type Dragon Dancing brethren, much less other DDers.
- Better initial Speed is nice, but it is no longer crucial: the departure of Genesect means there are no longer any common Scarfers lying in between the 80-100 range which would justify Salamence usage over Dragonite. Dragonite is also just fast enough to outspeed fast threats such as Greninja and Noivern after one Dragon Dance, while Salamence is not fast enough to outspeed Deoxys-S after one boost.
- Not being as SR weak as XZard is inherently an advantage, but it would still compete with Dragonite who has the same benefit anyway, and still boasts better bulk without Multiscale to minimise damage while setting up while easily rivaling Mence's power. Intimidate is Salamence's way of evening the score in bulk, but only initially, since Mence still lacks Dragonite's (and Zygarde's!) priority and naturally greater bulk, and ends up giving up Moxie.
- Moxie is nice to rack up the kills, but Mence's low defenses and lack of priority leave it very prone to opposing priority, which neither Dragonite, XZard, and even Zygarde are susceptible to. If the other Dragons are facing all-out sweeping issues, Mence is facing priority issues, which can end up cutting the sweep short in the same fashion anyway. Even Zygarde boasts a better success rate by virtue of its Ground typing, which gives it dual STAB, SR resistance (rendering Mence's SR resilience compared to XZard fairly moot), and the ability to easily smash Steels: Zygarde can set up on Aegislash and Scizor and actually hurt Azumarill, Sylveon, and Mega Mawile; Salamence is be checked by both and can't do jack shit to Fairies (Mawile's Sucker Punch KOes after likely prior damage).
Salamence lacks the bulk that every other DDer has, and its power advantage in Moxie only factors in after it has KOed something: usually this involves taking damage after setting up and then KOing the threat, by which the damage incurred can leave Salamence open to almost any attack it takes afterward, which is usually priority. Most other DDers do not face this kind of problem by either having greater defensive typing, better bulk for priority or setting up, priority, or better offensive typing. There is little reason to use Mence over other DDers because the possibility of a snowball Moxie sweep are not worth its consistent flaws.
MixNite also has additional coverage moves in Superpower, Thunder or Hurricane, while Salamence doesn't have anything over Dragonite and usually can only fall back on its hard-to-spam Dragon moves for consistent damage dealing, in which case Hydreigon already steals the spotlight for wallbreaking Dragon due to its much more spammable Dark Pulse.
Espeon may be cozy in C+ rank, but I'd like to nominate it moving up to B- or B. Despite not having much of an offensive presence (despite being able to 2HKO Mega Venu) this metagame, it still has a great speed tier and ability to provide a supporting role. Most notably, I think, is the dual-screens set that Espeon runs quite effectively. The screens are backed up by Espeon being able to run Baton Pass and Yawn, which respectively free Espeon of pursuit trapping and force a switch to get your sweeper in for free. Also, let's not forget about how incredible of an ability Magic Bounce is.
I would like to have Kyurem moved to C- (currently C+), just because it's so outclassed by other dragons (mainly Kyu-B). I would also like to recommend moving Entei to B- because it deal really well with a lot of threatening pokes (assault vest or CB), and very few things like to switch in to it. It still has a bad movepool, and mediocre speed, but imo it should make B-
Move Galvantula down. Like way down, to C- preferably. It's such a mediocre Pokemon; bad defensive typing, horrible bulk, and mediocre unboosted power hold it back majorly. Sticky Web is not enough of a justification for it to be as high as it is, as Sticky Web really isn't that good because of all the priority, not to mention the metagame is bulkier and less reliant on Speed. Galvantula would be nowhere near viable without Sticky Web anyways.
Thundurus-T NEEDS to move up to B. Completely eclipsed by Thundurus-I? I don't think so. There's actually a multitude of sets that Thundy-T does better because of the extra power. Agility is done better because Thundy-I's increased Speed and Prankster isn't useful on such a set. Specs would be better for Thundurus-T because of the increased power, and Scarf would be better because Volt Absorb a more useful ability for pivoting. While Thundurus-I is generally a better choice, there are enough sets that Thundy-T can do better than its Incarnate counterpart that allows it to not be considered COMPLETELY outclassed by it, hence the motion to move it to B or B- at least.
Crawdaunt should move up too. Instead of repeating myself, I'll go ahead and quote a really old post I made that details why Crawdaunt is B- material.
Along with all of this, I'd also like to mention that Crawdaunt has very very few counters. Chesnaught is pretty much the only thing that can come in and force it out consistently. Azumarill resists both STABs, but doesn't like losing its item to Knock Off. You might also say Mega Venusaur, but then I say this:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Mega Venusaur in Rain: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Crawdaunt almost always OHKOs Mega Venusaur, one of the best walls in OU, with a resisted attack with rain, hazards, and one boost. It's not too much to ask of Crawdaunt. He deserves B- because of his nearly unrivaled power.
Some other minor mentions:
Staraptor ----> B. Essential member of bird spamming, hits like a truck with STAB Reckless Brave Birds and Double Edges.
Celebi ----> B- or B. Genesect being banned allows Celebi much more breathing room. Excellent switch in to Water-types like Rotom-W and Keldeo.
Tangrowth ----> B-. Assault Vest makes it an excellent mixed wall and pivot. Physical Wall still works because it has similar Physical Bulk to Skarmory and useful moves like Sleep Powder and Leech Seed. Regenerator is amazing for both sets.
Agree on Galvantula, SW is not enough of a niche for its current ranking and there's no justification for it to be used over other, better electric types outside of it (I don't care about compound eyes thunder, its still just a bad bug)
The only other one I'll talk on is Crawdaunt. The +2 crabhammer in rain is kinda irrelavent as it's so frail getting a SD cannot be assumed. I'm ok with a B- Rank, because STAB adaptability (CB) Knock off and aqua jet are killers, but B is too much.
Salamence in C rank is pretty ridiculous. Yeah there's Fairy pokemon and yeah it has competition from threats like Dragonite, Mega Charizard X and Mega Tyranitar as a sweeper. Keep in mind though that Salamence has its advantages over all of them. It's faster than Dragonite (and yes that's a big deal for a DD sweeper). It doesn't lose 50% of its health from Stealth Rock which means it's not reliant on Defog like Charizard. I'm not gonna compare it to Tyranitar because they're just too different besides being lategame sweepers. However, it has one ability which sets Salamence apart from them all, which is Moxie. It makes Salamence really efficient as a sweeper, more so than D-nite and Zard who don't always have enough power at +1 to OHKO every opponent thus having their sweeps ended abruptly. With Moxie Salamence gets more powerful as the sweep continues, making it that much harder to stop.
Also, let's not forget MixMence who again isn't outclassed by MixNite just because of Moxie. After D-nite drops a Draco Meteor it doesn't have any hard hits left while Mence can follow up with a +1 Life Orb Outrage thanks to Moxie. Again the speed helps Salamence which shows that it has a clear advantage over the slower Dragonite.
I can't argue with salamence's current rank. In this meta where its coverage is terrible, it has huge competition, and people are used to dealing with the much bigger threat Charizard, I don't think its dd set is even c rank, even with moxie. Luckily it has other sets that are at least usable; mix mence, bulky sets, choice sets, and that weird defog set all can find their ways onto teams, but let's not kid ourselves. DD salamence died a long time ago. Fairies just finally buried it
Guess I can nominate Hydreigon as much as I like and it won't make the ranking it deserves.
Like mentioned many times before, Hydreigon is suffering this gen through the special move nerf and the introduction of Fairy Typs. However, Dark typ got buffed and now it is Hydreigon's main spammable move.
With great bulk, good speed and great offensive stats Hydreigon can run a large number of sets like Specs, SpecialScarf, MixScarf, Expert Belt, Life Orb and more.
It has a large movepool on from both attacking sides like Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor, Earth Power, Earthquake, Crunch, Head Smash, Iron Tail, Flamethrower, Surf, Focus Blast, Superpower, Flash Cannon, U-Turn, making it really difficult to counter.
It does deserve a rating, but not that much of one. Obvious weaknesses counter its coverage pretty easily, so B- is more than I'd give it. I was thinking C+, but maybe lower. I honestly haven't tested this one that much this gen, so I'll get back to you.
Espeon may be cozy in C+ rank, but I'd like to nominate it moving up to B- or B. Despite not having much of an offensive presence (despite being able to 2HKO Mega Venu) this metagame, it still has a great speed tier and ability to provide a supporting role. Most notably, I think, is the dual-screens set that Espeon runs quite effectively. The screens are backed up by Espeon being able to run Baton Pass and Yawn, which respectively free Espeon of pursuit trapping and force a switch to get your sweeper in for free. Also, let's not forget about how incredible of an ability Magic Bounce is.
I cannot stress how much just having Espeon in your party benefits your team. That and its pretty good screen support and calm mind sets make B easy for me to support
Kyurem is fine in C+.
Its SubRoost set is still threatening and its only real competition is Kyurem-B, who is overall better but without Pressure it has issues with the likes of Ferrothorn (unlike normal Kyurem who handily beats it) as well as random Stone Edge/Gyro Ball/Close Combat users.
It might be its only niche but it is a significant one.
Kyurem is fine in C+.
Its SubRoost set is still threatening and its only real competition is Kyurem-B, who is overall better but without Pressure it has issues with the likes of Ferrothorn (unlike normal Kyurem who handily beats it) as well as random Stone Edge/Gyro Ball/Close Combat users.
It might be its only niche but it is a significant one.
I just cant see that being enough, the main point of Kyu B is the fact that it beats the most common defensive pokes (like M-venusaur and Rotom W), which regular kyurem just cant do. Kyurem also lacks electric move, teravolt (=mold breaker) and the ability to use variety of different sets (sub, scarf,band, hone claws, defensive)
Ehh. Keep in mind though that if you factor in any prior damage then all DD Dragonite has over DD Salamence is a little extra bulk and Extremespeed. Not negligible, it's one of the main reasons that Dragonite is in A rank but still. It suffers from the same flaws as Salamence, being weak to strong priority and completely walled by Fairies. Just because it has Extremespeed doesn't mean it's invincible to other priority. It still can't take out Talonflame from full at +1, and takes a lot of damage in return. Same thing with Mamoswine and Scizor. Let's look at the criterium for B rank:
B Rank: Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Definitely fits Salamence. You never know which set it will run, at +1 Speed it is very difficult to outrun and Moxie makes it a terrifying sweeper. It's not as weak to priority as some of you make out to be either.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 197-232 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That doesn't even kill with SR up, while a +1 Outrage easily nails Dragonite through Multiscale:
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 315-372 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
I don't see how Salamence is not as big of a threat as Dragonite. It's much less reliant on Defog support to not be outclassed by other DD sweepers like Dragonite is, and just as unpredictable. C rank is for pokemon that are completely eclipsed by pokemon in a higher rank, which is just not the right place for Mence. I've seen counterarguments like "weak to priority" (which is quite the general statement and applies to many sweepers including the high rank ones) and "walled completely by fairies" (which doesn't need explaining as to why that's a bad argument). The other arguments were either in favor of Mence (less SR weak than MegaZard X and higher base speed than D-nite) or they are almost negligible (Salamence's bulk is comparable to that of MegaZard X and Dragonite is Multiscale isn't active, and on a sweeper bulk is less relevant anyway).
I just believe Mence doesn't deserve C rank. You have to use it extensively to see that it's effective though, which I'm assuming not everybody here has done yet.
Absol needs to be at least B or B+. Given some proper support it immediately shuts down a variety of threats, notably Klefki and other Swagplay pokemon, and it hits like a bus. It's incredibly frail, so it needs to be kept in reserve, and while it has an immensely powerful priority STAB it requires perfect prediction -and is vulnerable to other priority attacks that will OHKO it if Sucker Punch doesn't OHKO first- but its position right now is downright criminal. It's an incredible pokemon when played to its strengths. Just a shame that it needs to fight for its mega slot.
Poor Salamence is a dead duck. It's in an even worse boat than Hydreigon, at least the hydra can be used as a lure and functions almost flawlessly as a core with Aegislash, but Salamence was known for one thing; Spamming draco meteor and outrage, with coverage moves to supplement its bloodlust. If any dragon got hit the hardest, it's Sal, he's outshined by other sweepers and no longer shines the way he used to. I wouldn't move him any higher than B-. If you want a dragon that fills the exact same role, use one of the Megazards or Dragonite, or Latios.
Ehh. Keep in mind though that if you factor in any prior damage then all DD Dragonite has over DD Salamence is a little extra bulk and Extremespeed. Not negligible, it's one of the main reasons that Dragonite is in A rank but still. It suffers from the same flaws as Salamence, being weak to strong priority and completely walled by Fairies. Just because it has Extremespeed doesn't mean it's invincible to other priority. It still can't take out Talonflame from full at +1, and takes a lot of damage in return. Same thing with Mamoswine and Scizor. Let's look at the criterium for B rank:
B Rank: Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
Definitely fits Salamence. You never know which set it will run, at +1 Speed it is very difficult to outrun and Moxie makes it a terrifying sweeper. It's not as weak to priority as some of you make out to be either.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 197-232 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That doesn't even kill with SR up, while a +1 Outrage easily nails Dragonite through Multiscale:
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 315-372 (97.2 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
I don't see how Salamence is not as big of a threat as Dragonite. It's much less reliant on Defog support to not be outclassed by other DD sweepers like Dragonite is, and just as unpredictable. C rank is for pokemon that are completely eclipsed by pokemon in a higher rank, which is just not the right place for Mence. I've seen counterarguments like "weak to priority" (which is quite the general statement and applies to many sweepers including the high rank ones) and "walled completely by fairies" (which doesn't need explaining as to why that's a bad argument). The other arguments were either in favor of Mence (less SR weak than MegaZard X and higher base speed than D-nite) or they are almost negligible (Salamence's bulk is comparable to that of MegaZard X and Dragonite is Multiscale isn't active, and on a sweeper bulk is less relevant anyway).
I just believe Mence doesn't deserve C rank. You have to use it extensively to see that it's effective though, which I'm assuming not everybody here has done yet.
You can't just take out Multiscale of the equation, and also downplay the importance of Extremspeed, and then say that Dragonite doesn't have much over Salamence. Choice Band is arguably Dragonite's best set in this metagame and you know why? Because it combines amazing power, great bulk + resistances + Multiscale, which allow it to check many dangerous offensive Pokemon, and hard hitting priority that goes before any other priority in the tier. Pokemon such as Choice Band Talonflame, Nasty Plot Thundurus, Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X, and Mega Pinsir can easily sweep teams with little support, and CB Dragonite keeps all of them in check. Salamence has only the power, which is not nearly enough.
Even on Dragon Dance sets, Multiscale and Extremespeed are huge factors that simply can't be ignored. Can Dragon Dance Salamence sweep with a CB Talonflame alive? No. Can Salamence sweep with a Thunder Wave Thundurus alive? No. Can Salamence sweep with a Deoxys-S alive? No. Dragonite, on the other hand, can do this, as long as those Pokemon have lost ~30% of their health, which means that the opponent should either refrain from using those Pokemon at all or attack and get to the KO range of +1 ES. And beating those Pokemon is extremely important, as they are some of the best revenge killers in the metagame right now, and losing to them while still being fairly easy to wall (Landorus-T, Azumarill, physically defensive Tyranitar, Mandibuzz, Clefable, Sylveon) is bad news for Salamence.
Not to mention that Multiscale is easier to keep intact than ever, so guaranteeing that one turn of halved damage is really easy and can often be game changing.
Salamence's only significant niche right now is the Choice Scarf set, which is not worth more than C+ rank, as it needs a lot of support to even hope of attempting a sweep.
The poke I really want to talk about this round is Goodra. And unlike my previous posts I don't want to move this thing up. Not even close. Goodra, at the very best, deserves to be C Rank but I honestly wouldn't mind if it dropped further. I'll list a few points and provide explanation in the following paragraphs.
Goodra is severely outclassed-This is point number one simply because its so goddamn obvious. Goodra's most popular, and as far as i know only, set is the Assault Vest set. This set's purpose is to act as somewhat of a tank to sponge special hits and then retaliate with its subpar special attack stat and mediocre coverage options. If we take a look at the pokes that Goodra can reliably tank hits from the list is actually quite small. Special Thundurus (and other Electric types), Landorus, Greninja, Aegislash (those w/o Toxic), and Charizard-Y. While those are some top tier threats that's a pretty specialized list. Especially when you take into account so many things can check these threats and provide so much more to the team. Conkeldurr can check all of these threats as well, while providing much more offensive pressure and support through knock off. Plus it has recovery in Drain Punch and can punish the opponent for using status moves thanks to Guts whereas Goodra simply gets worn down. The Lati's can check many of these threats as well as providing Defog Support, have extremely reliable recovery in Roost and can hit much much harder than Goodra can. On more defensive oriented teams Chansey takes hits just as well if not better from the special side, infinitely better from the physical side, has instant Recovery, and can support the team through a variety of support moves such as Wish, Heal Bell, Stealth Rocks, Thunder Wave, Toxic, etc.
Goodra can do virtually nothing back after taking hits-I touched on this in the last section but it is a major reason as to why I would never use Goodra so I figured it should get its own section. The fact that Goodra is basically just sitting there makes it nearly useless in my opinion. Very rarely will you come across a team that has Goodra as a major offensive threat. Almost any balanced team has something such as Heatran, Hippowdon, Aegislash that can come in and shrug off nearly any attack Goodra may be running and either cripple it with Toxic in Heatran / Aegi's case or wear it down with the combination of EQ / Slack off in Hippo's case. Outside of that Goodra is setup bait for sooo many bulky Megas and setup sweepers in the current metagame. BellyJet Azumarill, Mega Mawile, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, even Mega Charizard X with Roost if it hasn't mega evolved yet can easily switch into Goodra and start setting up in its derpy face which will almost certainly result in at least 2 or 3 pokes being removed from Goodra's side of the field. This makes Goodra a liability to run on your team!
Goodra has no form of Recovery and is easily worn by status-Again something touched upon previously but something that cannot be stressed enough. Goodra is not going to be tanking hits for long bottom line. Sure its bulk is impressive but every single team that is any good is either going to have A) some sort of Tank w/ a status move that will shrug off anything Goodra throws at it, severely crippling it for the match or B) A hazard lead with Stealth Rocks and Spikes to make it extremely difficult for Goodra to continuously switch into attacks. There is just no playstyle or team archetype that Goodra will ever really have a good matchup in. It just sits there and dishes out mediocre damage in the best case scenario against any well built team.
So I think I basically covered everything. Feel free to respond though because I really do enjoy talking about how terrible this thing is :] But yea for these reasons I firmly believe that Goodra needs a large drop in this thread.
I'd like to suggest that Jellicent should be moved down to C- or even D rank. I really don't see any reason you would ever want to run Jellicent in XY OU. The only teams that ever use spinblockers anymore are Deoxys-D hyper offense teams, and they always run Aegislash as a spinblocker. Defensive teams couldn't care less about spinblocking in XY because they rarely run hazards anymore outside of Stealth Rock. Also, the existence of Defog makes spinning far less relevant than it ever was. In addition, Jellicent can't even reliably switch into the only good spinner in OU, so its niche as a spinblocker is completely irrelevant.
Also, Jellicent really doesn't wall anything anymore. It is completely demolished by all of S rank and the only A+ rank Pokemon that it can even hope of walling are Heatran, defensive Landorus-T, and non-Knock Off Deoxys-S. I could go further down the list, but it doesn't even get that much better for Jellicent. I really don't see why this thing is at all useful in the current metagame, let alone B- worthy.
I won't be ridiculous. I will nominate the species Cresselia for B- rank.
Why that thing should bdeserved a rank that high if it's a Psychic type, with sucks?
Well, I explain.
B- rank acknowledges the problem that Cresselia has to deal with threats like (for example)Aegislash, Scizor, Tyranitar and Bisharp, which can be considered counters. Checks to that pokemon are required on a team with Cresselia.
But even then it has those positive qualities:
-Has the type Psychic. Even though it can e a blessing sometimes is a great type to key 3 times: Psychic herself, Fighting types 8a it less common ut still important) and ground types (inmunity thanks to the ability Levitate).
-Has reliable recovery in the form of Moonlight, who is also benefited from Sun from MCharizard-Y. The enrf of weather smakes weather last for only 5 turns (Tyranitar and Hippowdon usually dont use Smooth Rock; Hippowdon is not guaranteed with Sand Stream because it nerf Synthesis from a key threat, Mega Venusaur.
-has a great support movepool, with a Lot of support options from the team which apart of a 4MSS, gives her unpredictability of what to do. among them,there is important to not Dual Screens.
-Has 120 Def and 130 SpD. It's not the highest, ummm. Let's see
Shuckle: 20/230/230 defenses. Zero offense.
Bastiodon: 60/168/138 defenses. Zero offense. Weak x4 to Fighting and ground.
Deoxys: 50/160/160. It's comparable but Cresselia walls better taking attacks. Deoxys-D does a lot of function better, though.
Diancie: 50/150/150. You can't use it on Pokemon Showdown and even then, it's even better in a wall.
Giving the point that only Mega Tyranitar in SS is better than Cresselia defensively.
ut the type sucks:
Let's see with common example (I use this set)
Bold Nature with Item leftovers, EV Spread 252 HP 252 Def /4 SpA, moves Calm Mind/OPsychic/ice Beam or Moonblast/Moonlight. EV can be tweked.
Normal Physical: 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 205-243 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Normal Special: 252+ SpA Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 127-151 (28.6 - 34%) -- 98.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fire Special: 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia in Sun: 252-297 (56.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (literally the only one with Specs Heatran that can 2HKO)
Fire Physical: 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 162-192 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Water Physical: 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 105-124 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Water Special: 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 214-253 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Electric Physical: 252+ Atk Electivire Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 100-118 (22.5 - 26.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery (yes, Physical Electric is generally bad)
Electric Special: 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 165-196 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Grass physical: 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 153-180 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- approx. 39.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Grass Special: 252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 149-177 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- 28.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ice Physical: 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 145-172 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- 5.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ice Special: : 252 SpA Glaceon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 140-166 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fighting Physical: 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 89-105 (20 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fighting Special: 252 SpA Keldeo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 78-92 (17.5 - 20.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Poison physical: 252+ Atk Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 118-141 (26.5 - 31.7%) -- 32.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Poison Special: 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 153-181 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- 54.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ground : Normally,things like Landorus-T Earthquake vs. Levitate Cresselia: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time and Landorus Earth Power vs. Levitate Cresselia: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time
The only main thing you coudl care:
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 118-139 (26.5 - 31.3%) -- 19% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Flying Physical: 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 157-186 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- 84.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (the strongest is actually Staraptor taking huge recoil trying it)
Flying Special: 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 181-214 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Psychic Physical: 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 69-82 (15.5 - 18.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
Psychic Special: 252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 73-87 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bug Physical: 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 390-460 (87.8 - 103.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO (read: requires Hazards to OHKO).
Bug Special: 252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 266-314 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rock Physical: 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 154-183 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- 68.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rock Special: I don't even comment.
Ghost physical: 252+ Atk Mega Banette Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 192-228 (43.2 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ghost Special: 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 254-302 (57.2 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragon Physical: 252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 250-295 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragon Special: 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 255-300 (57.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (it's not a 2HKo 99% oft he time (-2).
Dark physical: 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 281-330 (63.2 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dark Special: 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 257-304 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Steel Physical: 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 157-186 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- 84.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Steel Physical: 252+ SpA Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 150-177 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 27% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fairy Physical: 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 157-186 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- 84.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fairy Special: 252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 183-216 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Unless you are dealing with MCharizard Y Fire Blast (that 2HKO 4/0 Garchomp, that resist Fire) , a STAB super effective move (from a real threat), and the only attack could OHKO (without set up) is a small chance with Pin Missile from Adamant Mega Heracross. And because the set I propose maximing up physical defense (Calm Mind boost SpD and SpA)
Ev can be tweeaked a it in SpD, SpA or even Spe (85 Speed is very fast for a "wall")
Is true (and I admit) that are a lot of threats it can't handle (for example, Mega Gardevoir), has a bit of 4MSS, Sandstorm hinders his recovery move, 8 PP could be a problem stalling...
Being the best mixed wall in the game, has the movepool that Cresselia (movepool with screens (don't recommend Light Clay), Calm Mind, Toxic, Thunder Wave, Psychic STAB, Ice Beam, Moonblast, Moonlight, PsychoShift, eing the main ones) , a type that is Psychic, not Buig/Flying or something, having the option of running an attack, that is even boosted by Calm Mind.
Evenif you use screens, don't use Light Clay. Use Leftovers every time unless a physical force recommend Rocky Helmet (like Mega Kanga, who takes 1/3 from them) and the gimmicky Status Orb + Psycho Shift.
Is viale only on stall teams? No. Balance, Semi-stall and "Bulky Offense" are able to use Cresselia in their teams without problem. Only it doesn't hinder the use of many of the top threats (except some pure Psychics). For example, you can have a team of Creseelia (wall), MVenusaur (Tank) and the rest being "offensive
I'd like to nominate Chesnaught for B/B+. Chesnaught is such a good tank, its Grass/Fighting typing gives it a very rare resistance to QuakeEdge and some great key resistances to Dark and Water. Bulletproof also makes it immune to many thing's STAB moves, namely Shadowball. It also has tremendous 88/122 physical bulk, Synthesis, Leech Seed, Spikes, pretty good attack for a wall, and the super trolly Spiky Shield.
-Aegislash is completely walled unless it has Flash Cannon
-Bisharp is countered (70% of the time)
-Garchomp can't get through without Choice Band or Swords Dance
-Lando-T can't do anything
-Mega Tyranitar is completely walled unless it has Ice Punch, but even then Chesnaught can just nail him with a 4x SE STAB move
-Mega Venusaur is walled unless it has HP Fire
-Dragonite can have a lot of trouble getting through Chesnaught, even at +1
-Excadrill is just stomped
-Gengar is walled without Dazzling Gleam or Sludge Wave
-Mega Gyarados is walled (yeah even with Ice Fang, shit's weak as fuck)
-Specs Keldeo is checked
-normal t-tar is just lol
-Scizor is walled (not much of a feat, but he is)
-most Conkeldurr sets are walled
-normal Gyarados is just lol
-CB Terrakion is checked
That's a good chunk of S/A rank. Even when Chesnaught can't do anything back (Venusaur) it can just set up spikes. It can also very easily wear down anything it can't really damage (Aegislash) with Leech Seed and/or Spiky Shield. Offensive and Defensive pokemon alike don't enjoy switching in to Leech Seed, and the health it saps is great for the rest of the team.
It also has Roar, Taunt, QuakeEdge, Pain Split, and some other great moves that let it run more than one set.
