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Other Current Metagame trends

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I'm in the 1300's (1550 in Glicko.) Am I allowed to participate in the discussion, or will any trends I notice be irrelevant?
 
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RyanKoopa said:
I'm in the 1300's (1550 in Glicko.) Am I allowed to participate in the discussion, or will any trends I notice be irrelevant?
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To put it in short, post your trends, if there not correct, (which they will most likely be correct), then someone will point it out.
 
A few trends I have noticed:

Scarf/AV Landorus-T: Landorus isn't even setting up SR anymore, it's too predictable, most of the players high up leave it to the likes of Hippo, Choice Scarf set runs a great core with Mega Manctric while AV set is a tank that can hit back really hard.

Analytic Magnezone: Specs + Analytic does a number on every team that doesn't have Chansey/blissey, and even then it does ~30% on the switch, most of the Magnezone's including mine is 30 Speed IVs though:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 238-282 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 338-398 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 278-328 (80.8 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

30 IVs means you are slower than Aegislash and you will OHKO regardless.

While I expect most magnezones to be Magnet pull to weaken if not get rid of steel- types such as Skarm and Mega Scizor, this set is insanely powerful.

Defensive Mega Scizor: While not having a better typing than Skarm, it certainly does have more physical bulk with Roost, SR, and Defog support, only thing is that is doesn't have Rocky Helmet and Whirlwind, though it is a very good pivot with powerful priority and, if played right, will not lose momentum. Getting popular already.

Zapdos > Rotom-W: So many Zapdoses over Rotom-W, most Zapdos(es) I'm seeing is 252 HP / 192+ Def / 64 SpA, basically because it can still take hits better than Rotom-W from Mega Pinsir and Talonflame, has more reliable recovery, and can actually KO Mega Pinsir with Thunderbolt with 64 SpA investment, while bring Defog support which Rotom-W cannot bring, and moreover it can Toxic which Rotom-W cannot afford, though Rotom-W packs WoW, it's still not good enough to justify using it over Zapdos, especially when Zapdos is not a set-up fodder for the likes of Bisharp unlike Rotom-W, because Zapdos has an ~81% chance of KOing with 64 SpA Heat Wave which is guaranteed after rocks, Rotom-W needs to WoW + Switch which gives Bisharp +4 which is monstrous even if burned, as Adamant Burned Bisharp at +4 does 74.3 - 87.5% to physical defensive Rotom-W with Knock off alone, and Rotom-W risks switching and losing an item of a teammate.

Mold Breaker Pinsir and CC Moxie Pinsir: Many of the pinsirs I am seeing right now are mold breaker, simply to bait in Rotom-W while using SD, because +2 EQ does 96 - 113.1% on physically defensive Rotom-W which is 75% chance to KO and 100% chance after rocks, it also gets Unaware Qagusire and Unware Clefable, as for CC Pinsir, it baits in Rotom-W on SD only to lose minimum of ~68% to +2 CC IF YOU ARE PHYSICALLY INVESTED. It also KO T-tar at +0 which is something EQ cannot do, though Aegislash poops on it.
 
I've noticed a major 180 with the Megazards. At the beginning of the gen Megazard X was everywhere but now I see it so infrequently that I can pretty reliably assume that any Zards I face will by Megazard Y.
 
RyanKoopa said:
I've noticed a major 180 with the Megazards. At the beginning of the gen Megazard X was everywhere but now I see it so infrequently that I can pretty reliably assume that any Zards I face will by Megazard Y.
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I've actually seen a lot more Zard X's than I used to. The most common set I currently see is the tank zard (probably because Joey uploaded a video about it).
 
I have seen X more often than Zard Y, but looking at the usage statistics, Y was always the one that was used the most because of its insane wallbreaking capabilities. It has even risen since people realised that it is great mixed.
While X has better mixed stats, it's physical power and great coverage allows it not to rely so much on its special attack at all. The only thing I can think of, you might want to use Fire Blast on Zard X might be Skarmory.
 
mertyville said:
I have seen X more often than Zard Y, but looking at the usage statistics, Y was always the one that was used the most because of its insane wallbreaking capabilities. It has even risen since people realised that it is great mixed.
While X has better mixed stats, it's physical power and great coverage allows it not to rely so much on its special attack at all. The only thing I can think of, you might want to use Fire Blast on Zard X might be Skarmory.
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If you want to avoid recoil from flare blitz, fire blast is a perfectly viable option. Ferrothorn, aeigis, and some rocky helm users are all good targets for fireblast.

That being said, running fire blast means probably getting walled by heatran, so yeah.
 
NeonNinja96 said:
I as well have noticed a sharp decline in Zard X usage, in favor of Zard Y. Finally people realize that Zard Y is better :)
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Dude there is no such thing as better or worse regarding the Megazards. One is a sweeper, arguably one of the best dd sweepers ever made, or a physical tank that can shut down many physical sweepers. The other is a wallbreaker, made to punch holes in the opponents team early to mid game to facilitate other sweepers to sweep.
 
finncent1 The point of fire blast is not really the damage, because flare blitz is infinitely better in that regard. The point of fire blast is to get around rocky helm users like ferrothorn and skarm without losing ~30% of ur health. Like I said, if you run fire blast, ur prolly getting walled by heatran. So it's value is questionable for that reason and pretty much that reason alone, but it is an option.
 
Doughboy said:
What's going on with the overall high usage of deo-s in spl vs deo-d? IIRC deo-d has only been used twice while deo-s is in the double digits14 times (on the phone can't really check). Deo-S can't run an item outside of Focus Sash lest it wants to be OHKO'ed by some of the heavier hitters in the tier, thus setting up only SR. Deo-D can run Red Card to force out anything that tries to KO it or setting up on it. The force out gives it another free turn to set up Spikes. That is really the only disconnect I see from the upper ladder vs SPL, where Deo-D is used just as much as Deo-S. So I guess the usage is from the Life Orb set? It's a decent RK'er, but can't "clean up" late game compared to some scarfers because it relies upon two moves that drops its attack.
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Reading some of the posts on the Victory Road thread (specifically, the success of stall teams) has made me think about this, and there does seem to be a fairly big disconnect between the upper ladder meta and the tournament meta. In SPL you see a variety of very successful balanced and defensive teams, even full stall, but the upper ladder is infested with easy Deosharp teams. Perhaps it's the nature of climbing the ladder, that encourages HO, since offence generally means shorter games (I know, whenever I made a new alt I just use the most brainless kind of HO until 1500 or so, at which point I switch to whatever team, I wanted to test). That being said, it is really surprising to me, how little Deo-D is used in the SPL - you would think its nigh-unanswerable guaranteed hazards would be enough to enable HO, which it most definitely does on ladder, to the point that many non-HO teams are scrambling for improvised disruptive tactics.

By and by, the most used set of Deo-S appears to be a hybrid hazards+attack set - usually SR and 3 attacks, sometimes Spikes and 2 attacks.
 
sidakarya said:
Reading some of the posts on the Victory Road thread (specifically, the success of stall teams) has made me think about this, and there does seem to be a fairly big disconnect between the upper ladder meta and the tournament meta. In SPL you see a variety of very successful balanced and defensive teams, even full stall, but the upper ladder is infested with easy Deosharp teams. Perhaps it's the nature of climbing the ladder, that encourages HO, since offence generally means shorter games (I know, whenever I made a new alt I just use the most brainless kind of HO until 1500 or so, at which point I switch to whatever team, I wanted to test). That being said, it is really surprising to me, how little Deo-D is used in the SPL - you would think its nigh-unanswerable guaranteed hazards would be enough to enable HO, which it most definitely does on ladder, to the point that many non-HO teams are scrambling for improvised disruptive tactics.

By and by, the most used set of Deo-S appears to be a hybrid hazards+attack set - usually SR and 3 attacks, sometimes Spikes and 2 attacks.
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Well, when I see a Deo-D on team preview, I already know what the first 1 or 2 moves of my opponent are going to be. It's that predictable. I find it hard to believe how such a predictable lead can be considered so effective. I guess the tournament players are already used to predict it, and try to use tactics that are actually hard to predict. If you know what your opponent will do in the beginning of the match but the opposite is not true, you have the advantage. The ladder players, on the other hand, all use predictable tactics so it doesn't matter. That's just a guess, since I don't play above the 1700s.

Sure, the Deo-D is hard to completely stop, but it's not hard to make it pay with its life just after using SR once. And then you just have to make sure you kill the Bisharp (who is also predictable as fuck) before using Defog. Even if the Deosharp player does acomplish something, the fact that you are the only player who is not being predicted is already a huge advantage. Nothing creates momentum better than doing something your opponent is not expecting.
 
Ninja Charizard said:
Well, when I see a Deo-D on team preview, I already know what the first 1 or 2 moves of my opponent are going to be. It's that predictable. I find it hard to believe how such a predictable lead can be considered so effective. I guess the tournament players are already used to predict it, and try to use tactics that are actually hard to predict. If you know what your opponent will do in the beginning of the match but the opposite is not true, you have the advantage. The ladder players, on the other hand, all use predictable tactics so it doesn't matter. That's just a guess, since I don't play above the 1700s.

Sure, the Deo-D is hard to completely stop, but it's not hard to make it pay with its life just after using SR once. And then you just have to make sure you kill the Bisharp (who is also predictable as fuck) before using Defog. Even if the Deosharp player does acomplish something, the fact that you are the only player who is not being predicted is already a huge advantage. Nothing creates momentum better than doing something your opponent is not expecting.
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Predictable =/= bad. You might be able to see Deo-D in team preview and have a perfect read on your opponent, but so few things can actually shut it down before it starts setting up haxards that it hardly matters. Not to mention that you need to find a free turn to bring in your Defogger, deal with Bisharp, get out from the switch in, which can mop the floor with you, and then find another opportunity to come in and Defog, which isn't exactly the best game plan. Bisharp doesn't need to get in safely to be effective, it just makes sure that you can't remove hazards without paying dearly for it. If you don't get rid of the hazards, Bisharp has already done its job.
 
BlackLight said:
Predictable =/= bad. You might be able to see Deo-D in team preview and have a perfect read on your opponent, but so few things can actually shut it down before it starts setting up haxards that it hardly matters. Not to mention that you need to find a free turn to bring in your Defogger, deal with Bisharp, get out from the switch in, which can mop the floor with you, and then find another opportunity to come in and Defog, which isn't exactly the best game plan. Bisharp doesn't need to get in safely to be effective, it just makes sure that you can't remove hazards without paying dearly for it. If you don't get rid of the hazards, Bisharp has already done its job.
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I know, but if the strategy was that impossible to counter, Deo-D would already be uber. The people playing on tournaments are finding ways to get around it, while using original tactics that the opponent doesn't always get around because they can't predict. I'm not gonna pretend I know what these ways are though, but if people are winning tournaments without using Deo-D, they obviously exist.

What I do with my team is just lead with Aegislash, kill Deo-D before it does anything other than setting up rocks, and then play the game normally because I don't even have a defogger and my team is already built not to mind rocks too much. Not a perfect strategy, but if I can consistently make the game a 6x5, it tends to pay off.
 
Ninja Charizard said:
Well, when I see a Deo-D on team preview, I already know what the first 1 or 2 moves of my opponent are going to be. It's that predictable. I find it hard to believe how such a predictable lead can be considered so effective. I guess the tournament players are already used to predict it, and try to use tactics that are actually hard to predict. If you know what your opponent will do in the beginning of the match but the opposite is not true, you have the advantage. The ladder players, on the other hand, all use predictable tactics so it doesn't matter. That's just a guess, since I don't play above the 1700s.

Sure, the Deo-D is hard to completely stop, but it's not hard to make it pay with its life just after using SR once. And then you just have to make sure you kill the Bisharp (who is also predictable as fuck) before using Defog. Even if the Deosharp player does acomplish something, the fact that you are the only player who is not being predicted is already a huge advantage. Nothing creates momentum better than doing something your opponent is not expecting.
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Well...to an extent. It's one thing to say a threat is predictable, but if you're forced to stop it or else you'll lose, you also become very predictable in response. But at the same time, beating a DeoSharp setup is ridiculously easy in the teambuilding stage. For instance, I made it to the top 20 on PO using Magic Coat Tentacruel to guarantee myself an early advantage against Deoxys teams. I feel like because it's perfectly easy to overprepare for DeoSharp, and because it's so popular and so many strong players use specific anti-Deo strategies, in an important setting like a tournament most people would rather not take the risk of having their DeoSharp core being practically worthless.
 
Clair said:
Well...to an extent. It's one thing to say a threat is predictable, but if you're forced to stop it or else you'll lose, you also become very predictable in response. But at the same time, beating a DeoSharp setup is ridiculously easy in the teambuilding stage. For instance, I made it to the top 20 on PO using Magic Coat Tentacruel to guarantee myself an early advantage against Deoxys teams. I feel like because it's perfectly easy to overprepare for DeoSharp, and because it's so popular and so many strong players use specific anti-Deo strategies, in an important setting like a tournament most people would rather not take the risk of having their DeoSharp core being practically worthless.
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Magic Coat Tentacruel, huh? Interesting, I think I'm gonna try that.

I think there is a trade-off between using an optimal team and being unpredictable. The more optimal your set is, the more likely your opponent will see it coming. Personally, I'd rather use a little less than optimal set if I can actually catch my opponent by surprise. Of course, you can't go overboard and use something completely unviable just for the sake of unpredictability.
 
bobbyvaporeon said:
Yeah, that's not even close to a counter. Shaky check to Azumarill, really can't do much to Mawile.
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Waterfall does like 40%, and scizor outspeeds. It can switch in on mawile and then either BP for like 35% damage, or u-turn out to something that can threaten it out (i.e specs keldeo).

Strong check to both, imo counter by this gens standards. Not gen4 anymore, there are very few "true" counters which is a good thing.

Another trend: choice scarf is not as popular anymore. priority attacks are becoming more essential than a scarfer.
 
114 said:
Waterfall does like 40%, and scizor outspeeds. It can switch in on mawile and then either BP for like 35% damage, or u-turn out to something that can threaten it out (i.e specs keldeo).

Strong check to both, imo counter by this gens standards. Not gen4 anymore, there are very few "true" counters which is a good thing.
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The definition of check and counter is static, it doesn't change whether or not there is a power creep that makes the large majority of pokemon harder to handle. Hint: that isn't even the case for this gen. The combination of the weather nerf, Defog buff (stopping hazards HO / new counterplay to hazards), and even the special move nerf all make the power in this gen much more tame than last gen. Mega-Evolutions is just one optimized threat per team, Drizzle / Drought made entire teams optimized (saur: a sweeper with 1 counter + victini: 270 base power attacks is lolworthy).

You either stop an entire pokemon's moveset or you don't. That definition doesn't change between gens.

And btw Mega-Scizor does not counter Azumarill. CB Waterfall does 43% minimum to max hp / max defense with a positive nature Scizor. CB Azumarill can 2HK0 97% of the time after SR... sorry didn't include a positive defense nature

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Scizor: 148-175 (43.1 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 
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Doughboy said:
The definition of check and counter is static, it doesn't change whether or not there is a power creep that makes the large majority of pokemon harder to handle. Hint: that isn't even the case for this gen. The combination of the weather nerf, Defog buff (stopping hazards HO / new counterplay to hazards), and even the special move nerf all make the power in this gen much more tame than last gen. Mega-Evolutions is just one optimized threat per team, Drizzle / Drought made entire teams optimized (saur: a sweeper with 1 counter + victini: 270 base power attacks is lolworthy).

You either stop an entire pokemon's moveset or you don't. That definition doesn't change between gens.

And btw Mega-Scizor does not counter Azumarill. CB Waterfall does 43% minimum to max hp / max defense with a positive nature Scizor. CB Azumarill can 2HK0 97% of the time after SR...

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Scizor: 148-175 (43.1 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
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Sorry maybe the definitions don't change but the attitude towards them does. It's been a gradual process since 4th gen to rely more on checks than counters, and I stand corrected m-scizor is a strong check to azumarill, not a counter. But definitions are moot compared to real gameplay:

It's faster so you can roost any number of times and u turn out if azumarill doesn't switch, since it's locked into waterfall. Or you can knock off, and poof azumarill is a deadweight the rest of the game - done. But pretend we're not using knock off even then just due to the nature of choice sets just having mega-scizor on your team basically ensures you won't get manhandled by azumarill because it's not like he'll be able to predict waterfall vs. his more stronger option, play rough, all the time, as he is in calculations, especially if you have scizor's great partner rotom-w. Being able to freely switch in then get out at least once, probably twice during the game is good enough to stop a pokemon that is supposed to be one of the best wallbreakers in town. Plus it's a given that wallbreakers are supposd to be punching holes into teams - if they're not then they're being deadweight. Scizor makes azumaril's role hard, by ensuring that it won't be punching holes for at least the first half of the game. I keep saying m-scizor is heavily underrated and should be A+, since it stops so many threats (m-tyra, m-mawile, azu, terrak, conk, best knock off absorber in the game)

Also there is very much powercreep this gen, with mevolutions kang, zardx, pinsir, luc, and soon floette-e. This meta is not more tame; this meta is simply better. Weather wasn't banned because of the controversial nature of it, but we can ban overowered mevolutions/brokenmonz one at a time now. Drought had its own problems anyways (too volatile of a playstyle; relying on dugtrio for heatran/ttar; forced hyper-offense playstyle).
 
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Ninja Charizard said:
I know, but if the strategy was that impossible to counter, Deo-D would already be uber. The people playing on tournaments are finding ways to get around it, while using original tactics that the opponent doesn't always get around because they can't predict. I'm not gonna pretend I know what these ways are though, but if people are winning tournaments without using Deo-D, they obviously exist.

What I do with my team is just lead with Aegislash, kill Deo-D before it does anything other than setting up rocks, and then play the game normally because I don't even have a defogger and my team is already built not to mind rocks too much. Not a perfect strategy, but if I can consistently make the game a 6x5, it tends to pay off.
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Deo-D is stoppable but there's only a small handful of things actually able to do it. If you're not leading with a super strong ghost/dark/bug attacker there's not a lot you can do to prevent it from getting 2-3 layers of hazards. It's the single best hazard support for HO teams and was uber last gen for this reason.
 
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