np: XY UU Stage 0 - I Lived

[Kingpoleon]

OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT:

We have a new OU list, courtesy of an updated way of determining tiers (the cutoff for the weighted stats is now 1760, read all about it in Policy Review).

Here is the link to the new list.

Hello, Donphan / Klefki / Starmie / Smeargle / Tentacruel / Sableye / Cloyster / Forretress / Galvantula / Salamence / Trevenant

The Council will discuss the final wave of bans over PM for the next week or so. Expect the tier to go official by the 20th at the latest.

That is all.

Main threats: Cloyster, Sableye, and Salamence.
Support: Galvantula, Tentacruel, Donphan, Starmie, Forretress
TROLLS: Trevenant, Smeargle, and KLEFKI.
Cloyster has counters. So does Salamence. Sableye has... Houndoom.
As for the others(besides Starmie), it's hard to tell what's considered broken because there is no defined perfect metagame(to quote koko). They also are had to be pinned down as "Support threats". I'll let someone else do that.

 

[Albacore]

Main threats: Cloyster, Sableye, and Salamence.
Support: Galvantula, Tentacruel, Donphan, Starmie, Forretress
TROLLS: Trevenant, Smeargle, and KLEFKI.
Cloyster has counters. So does Salamence. Sableye has... Houndoom.
As for the others(besides Starmie), it's hard to tell what's considered broken because there is no defined perfect metagame(to quote koko). They also are had to be pinned down as "Support threats". I'll let someone else do that.

Sableye has Darmanitan. That's a pretty big full stop, considering the fact that Darmanitan is pretty much the most common sweeper/wallbreaker/revenge killer in the tier. But it's still very hard to stop if you don't have a Fire-type, Fairy-type, or bouncer.

 

[kokoloko]

lol drama is a super risky sableye switchin. foul play does like half

Ernesto edit: I like it when drama comes in. That's when the fun part starts

 

[Taehl]

Main threats: Cloyster, Sableye, and Salamence. How is Sableye a main thread? I consider it more a support pokemon.
Cloyster has counters. Basically any steel type with decent bulk.
So does Salamence. It has a lot of checks though. (Also there's physically defensive Florges and porygon2)
Sableye has... Houndoom and Florges, and Umbreon, and guts Heracross, and mega-Absol, etc.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Sableye is a threat because it shuts down several common shit such as haxorus, salamence, moxie heracross, cloyster, hawlucha, mienshao, crawdaunt, phys torn-t, reuniclus... should i keep going? Priority will-o-wisp+taunt can mess up a lot of things, sableye should definitely not be underestimated.

 

[Olly]

Sableye is a threat because it shuts down several common shit such as haxorus, salamence, moxie heracross, cloyster, hawlucha, mienshao, crawdaunt, phys torn-t, reuniclus... should i keep going? Priority will-o-wisp+taunt can mess up a lot of things, sableye should definitely not be underestimated.

I wouldn't rely on it to shut down Haxorus. Most Haxorus I see are running Lum Berry.

There is also the flipside to this that Sableye gives completely free switch ins to a number of Pokemon that either don't care about the burn or just absorb it. Mega Houndoom being the most scary.

Now that Mega Kangaskhan is gone from OU, nothing has really changed for Sableye since last gen. It gained a weakness, and the threats around it in UU have got more powerful.

 

[Albacore]

lol drama is a super risky sableye switchin. foul play does like half

Ernesto edit: I like it when drama comes in. That's when the fun part starts

Aaah I forgot about Foul Play. But from personal experience, the very first thing Sableye will do is almost always Will-O-Wisp. So, in practice, it's not all that risky to switch it in.

Sableye is a pretty huge threat. I find myself always having problems dealing with it when I don't specifically try to counter it with something like Absol.

 

[kokoloko]

you must have been playing some super shitty players to blindly wisp against teams w/ a darmanitan

 

[Verminator]

The best Sableye stop imo is Florges. It takes insignificant damage from any of its attacks, slaps it around with SE Moonblast, and can undo the burns it inflicts upon Florges and her teammates with Aromatherapy.

Ernesto edit: The real best stop is Aromatisse. Basically the same as Florges but with Taunt immunity.

 

[Shiruba]

I honestly would think that EVing Salamence in Special Defense would do more for it since Intimidate is already softening physical attacks. Anyhow, I've been giving some thought to a bulky DD set as I used to run one in DPP before Mence was banned. IIRC, it looked a little like this: (with updates to XY UU standards)

Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SDef / 24 Spe
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
- Dragon Dance
- Defog / Earthquake

With Special Defense EVs, Mence can live random weak Ice Beams and Moonblasts from Vaporeon, Slowbro, and Florges to slowly setup. Intimidate nerfs physical attackers to allow for easier set up. Anyway, p. much the same set as the one koko posted a last page, but with the option of EQ to actually do something with Florges, M-Aggron, and the like.

Have you considered Wish on this set? Sounds like it could be a little tough to fit in, but Salamence has a respectable base 95 HP, which seems decent with full investment. With that good balk, seems like it be a nice Defog pivot with some clerical capabilities.

 

[EonX]

Shiruba , well, the idea is to simply pivot into and out of attacks early while using Defog (if used) when possible. Then, once Florges is gone (and Steels if no EQ) Mence can use the bulk it has to DD a time or two to sweep.

 

[xam13124]

Has anyone tried out Braviary in UU? Ive been using a defiant set pretty well on a hyper-offense team that uses smeargle to set up hazards. Getting +2 off a defog makes him nuts.

Braviary @ Choice Scarf
Defiant Bold Adamant
252 attack 252 speed 4 hp
Brave Bird
Return
Superpower
U-Turn

 

[Mudkip727]

Has anyone tried out Braviary in UU? Ive been using a defiant set pretty well on a hyper-offense team that uses smeargle to set up hazards. Getting +2 off a defog makes him nuts.

Braviary @ Choice Scarf
Defiant Bold
252 attack 252 speed 4 hp
Brave Bird
Return
Superpower
U-Turn

The problem is that braviary needs to be switched in a defog which is hard when they are only a few viable defoggers around. Not to mention when the one of the more better defoggers, if not the best, mew and salamence can 1-2KO braviary or render it useless with WOW, not saying its bad, but it's very hard to use compared to other sweepers like say, hawluncha, or even honchcrow.

 

[elite4]

Hide

Why is no one disucssing Suicune in the UU section? It is A-ranked according to the viability thread and it has the ability to sweep whole teams with ease.

I think Crocune is outdated and almost unusable in the current UU metagame due to walls like Jellicent, Vaporeon, Perish Song Umbreon and Gastrodon shutting it up, and attackers like Chesnaught, Mega Manectric and Celebi threatening its presence.

In sight of those walls Suicune can no longer strive just with Water+Ice-type move coverage. In contrast, I believe Shadow Ball is the new necessity for Suicune as a coverage move. With Shadow Ball Suicune can easily beat pokes that would else completely wall you, like Jellicent, Slowbro and Trevenant. It hits other threats like Jirachi and Cofagrigus hard too.

However, using Shadow Ball would inevitably lead to the doubt that it would make Suicune an inferior to Jellicent who have STAB in the move and has a much better Status movepool. The fact is that although adding a Ghost type can help Jellicent switch in to Fighting (and Normal) moves and provide more resistances, it would reduce its ability to fight Ghost-types one-on-one since most other ghost types hit harder than you. Moreover, the weakness to Dark would make it vulnerable to the omnipresent Knock Off in 6th gen gameplay. Comparing their stats, you would find that Suicune is superior in all base stats except HP, where they tie. Being faster than Honchkrow, Metagross and Chandelure would also increase its chances of sweeping, if not, surviving.

TL;DR
- A thread disucssing Suicune in UU is needed
- Crocune is outdated due to popular Water/Grass type Walls and Grass/Electric type attackers in 6th gen UU
- Abandon Water move+Ice Beam
- Go with Water move+Shadow Ball instead
- Using Shadow Ball doesn't make Suicune an inferior to Jellicent (higher stats, no weakness to Knock Off, outspeeds Chandelure and Honchkrow)

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Crocune already beats every single bulky water because theyre stalled by pressure, theres nothing outdated about it, its still the best set due to how few answers for it exist. Using ice beam (not shadow ball) instead of sleep talk to hit trevenant, salamence, zygarde and haxorus is fine and nothing really mind blowing.

Ernesto edit: Also Roar, which wrecks CM Slowbro trying to set up alongside you unless last mon.

 

[Buckles]

Stall is tough to break through in this meta. I run Taunt Tornadus-T/Mega Manectric VoltTurn core with Crawdaunt taking up the rear and that Aggron/Florges core is tough as hell. Aggron needs his defense EVs though, cause I smacked one for 47% with Crawdaunt's Crabhammer once and that flipped the game around.

With that core as ubiquitous as it is, it looks like the best anti stall attackers in the tier are the physical fire types. Victini and Darmanitan are nearly impossible to switch into outside of Rhyperior or MegaStoise, neither of which are gonna be popular teammates for Mega Aggron (one fills a very similar niche, and the other is illegal on the same team). When I've seen either of those Fire attackers, I just hope they don't have Scarf and throw Donphan at them until they're weak enough to revenge. Really surprised (and lucky) I haven't seen more of them, with how easy it is to Defog and WishPass in this tier. Luckily Crawdaunt is always around to hit them with an Thermonuclear Aqua Jet. Seriously. Use Crawdaunt. Game breaking power.
So I guess Poliwrath might be an alright teammate for Florges/Aggron core to stop them, except for Victini's Bolt Strike/Zen Headbutt. Stops Darmanitan and acts as a backup stop to Crawdaunt.

Most useful Pokemon I've used so far, however, has to be AV Metagross. The definition of a tank, has a strong priority move, decent STABS and the odd MM attack boost makes trouble. Gotta run Zen Headbutt on him though, Thunder/Ice Punch is worse than useless cause it doesn't kill ANYTHING and tricks you with the illusion of being able to hit stuff. Falls into the Electivire trap of having all kinds of type coverage with no power at all. Zen hits lots of stuff for hard neutral damage on the switch, and surprises fighters like Hera and Chesnaught that want to set up on you. I can't build a team without this guy anymore.

 

[Kingpoleon]

Hide

Why is no one disucssing Suicune in the UU section? It is A-ranked according to the viability thread and it has the ability to sweep whole teams with ease.

I think Crocune is outdated and almost unusable in the current UU metagame due to walls like Jellicent, Vaporeon, Perish Song Umbreon and Gastrodon shutting it up, and attackers like Chesnaught, Mega Manectric and Celebi threatening its presence.

In sight of those walls Suicune can no longer strive just with Water+Ice-type move coverage. In contrast, I believe Shadow Ball is the new necessity for Suicune as a coverage move. With Shadow Ball Suicune can easily beat pokes that would else completely wall you, like Jellicent, Slowbro and Trevenant. It hits other threats like Jirachi and Cofagrigus hard too.

However, using Shadow Ball would inevitably lead to the doubt that it would make Suicune an inferior to Jellicent who have STAB in the move and has a much better Status movepool. The fact is that although adding a Ghost type can help Jellicent switch in to Fighting (and Normal) moves and provide more resistances, it would reduce its ability to fight Ghost-types one-on-one since most other ghost types hit harder than you. Moreover, the weakness to Dark would make it vulnerable to the omnipresent Knock Off in 6th gen gameplay. Comparing their stats, you would find that Suicune is superior in all base stats except HP, where they tie. Being faster than Honchkrow, Metagross and Chandelure would also increase its chances of sweeping, if not, surviving.

TL;DR
- A thread disucssing Suicune in UU is needed
- Crocune is outdated due to popular Water/Grass type Walls and Grass/Electric type attackers in 6th gen UU
- Abandon Water move+Ice Beam
- Go with Water move+Shadow Ball instead
- Using Shadow Ball doesn't make Suicune an inferior to Jellicent (higher stats, no weakness to Knock Off, outspeeds Chandelure and Honchkrow)

You could make a Suicune thread yourself(/good idea|).
Lol what?
No.
To lose to Hydreigon/Shiftry/Chesnaught instead?
Yes it Kind've does make it outclassed though.

 

[Taehl]

- Using Shadow Ball doesn't make Suicune an inferior to Jellicent (higher stats, no weakness to Knock Off, outspeeds Chandelure and Honchkrow)

You can't compare Suicune to Jellicent just because they both run shadow ball. They have different roles and therefore one isn't inferior to the other one.

 

[EonX]

On the subject of Stall / defensive balance teams, I'm surprised more people aren't using physically defensive Mega Ampharos. It checks and counters so many dangerous threats, it isn't even funny. It has access to RestTalk and happens to pair really well with Florges to check so many threats in the tier. Nidoking is a pretty painful threat to deal with on this core, but you can pair SpDef Mew with this core fairly easily as it provides Rocks and/or Defog. Anyway, back on physDef Mega Ampharos, here's some calcs against it from some of the top threats in the metagame:

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 127-150 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 133-159 (34.7 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 160-190 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Ampharos: 95-113 (24.8 - 29.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Ampharos: 124-148 (32.3 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
and for the extreme...
252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 282-332 (73.6 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah, this thing just flat out tanks shit. Short of super effective STAB moves, no physical attacker has a chance of OHKOing it (and even Scarf Salamence fails to OHKO!) I can't think of another Pokemon in the tier capable of tanking out hits from all of the above Pokemon at once with a single set. It's great on stall teams, but base 165 Special Attack and STAB Volt Switch means it can work on more defensive-minded balance teams since it won't lose much momentum, even if it uses Rest since Sleep Talk has a 33% chance of picking Volt Switch. This means that only Ground-type sweepers like Zygarde can safely try to setup on a sleeping Mega Ampharos. Anything else has the potential to be hit with Volt Switch and be met with a counter.

 

[elite4]

You can't compare Suicune to Jellicent just because they both run shadow ball. They have different roles and therefore one isn't inferior to the other one.

Yes that is exactly what I wanted to say. I am pointing out Jellicent just because I don't want people to think that having Shadow Ball makes Suicune an inferior Jellicent.

You could make a Suicune thread yourself(/good idea|).
Lol what?
No.
To lose to Hydreigon/Shiftry/Chesnaught instead?
Yes it Kind've does make it outclassed though.

Well I am not quite sure how Suicune works if it only has 2 attacking moves since what I am using right now is 252SAtk/252+Spd CM+3 attacks Suicune and it works well for me. Due to the power drop of Hidden Power, Shadow Ball becomes a much better option for the coverage move.
And to be honest, with at least 2 CM up, Suicune beats Hydreigon even without Ice Beam if you can burn it with Scald. Suicune isn't a very good check against Chesnaught anyways since Ice Beam only 3HKOs 252/0 Chesnaught.

Also, I think you completely missed the point that there are far more checks to Suicune with Water+Ice Beam than Water+Shadow Ball. Without Shadow Ball Suicune is vulnerable against any bulky Waters, most notably Jellicent and Vaporeon, who is immune to Water-type moves and resist Ice Beam. Even at +6 Suicune's Ice Beam doesn't even scratch while both have recovery moves to stall out Suicune, let alone crippling it with Toxic or Will-O-Wisp.

If you have most Suicune's checks in mind, you would find that other than the 3 you mentioned in your post, popular pokes who are weak to Ice Beam is also weak to Shadow Ball. I have already mentioned Celebi and Trevenant in my first post. And Shadow Ball also lets you beat pokes like Slowbro, Cofagrigus and Jirachi much more easily.

A relatively minor point to mind is that Ice Beam suffers a power drop from 95 to 90 in this generation while Shadow Ball keeps its power in 80, which narrows the gap between them.

In retrospect, what I am trying to say is that
1) Crocune is less viable in 6th Gen UU,
2) Shadow Ball outclasses HP Electric/Grass as coverage move,
3) Shadow Ball helps Suicune beat many pokes who used to counter Water+Ice Beam Suicune, and
4) Shadow Ball can still beat certain popular pokes who lose to Ice Beam

 

[radianthero156]

no, suicune has pressure which means he's the one who will do the outstalling. especially if he uses rest, where he'll not waste pp for 2 turns; the only waters that can legitimately beat suicune are poliwrath and taunt jellicent.

as for physically defensive mega ampharos, it is the only set it can run viably i think. it is like the ultimate pivot for offensive teams, i used it a lot of times.

 

[xam13124]

The problem is that braviary needs to be switched in a defog which is hard when they are only a few viable defoggers around. Not to mention when the one of the more better defoggers, if not the best, mew and salamence can 1-2KO braviary or render it useless with WOW, not saying its bad, but it's very hard to use compared to other sweepers like say, hawluncha, or even honchcrow.

Alright time for some calcs to defend Braviary:

+2 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 412-486 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 297-351 (73.5 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Braviary Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 345-406 (87.5 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO, guaranteed after Stealth Rocks

Also consider that Braviary is not meant primarily to be a sweeper, he is mostly a revenge killer, deterent to Defog and occasional lategame cleaner.

 

[EonX]

The problem for Braviary (imo) is not its power. The problem is the fact that its main STAB move, Brave Bird, just eats away at its HP. This means that you're likely only getting one shot to outright sweep with him. If you get forced out, there probably won't be another chance to switch-in on a Defog as Braviary is generally used on more offensive teams with fast, suicide hazard setters (Smeargle, Galvantula, etc.) What made Bisharp such an amazing abuser of Defiant was that it wasn't reliant on Defog alone. If the opponent used Sticky Web, then it would automatically get a +2 Attack boost when it came in, guaranteed. Braviary has to rely on switching into Defog, which will likely only be used once.

radianthero156 , I don't think physically defensive is the only set Mega Ampharos can run. It has a really cool bulky attacker set that can act as an offensive cleric. The same set can be altered a bit to run in Trick Room as a dangerous special sweeper for TR teams. It also has a SpDef set. While it isn't quite as useful as its physically defensive counterpart, the SpDef set hard counters M-Manectric, Chandelure, Roserade, and Magnezone. This is on top of Tornadus-T which the physically defensive set already handles well enough. Still, physically defensive is arguably M-Ampharos's best set right now.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Imo the only reason no one runs Defensive Amph is becasue of the shift toward Dragon offens, and that goes for most defensively inclined pokemon right now.

If you showed me those numbers anytime pre-salamence and post-Kokolokobanrampage, I would agree with you. However, the sudden drop offensive pokemon from OU made defensive play riskier.

Someone quote this post so i can elaborate on this point later. I hate typing on the phone.

 

[jamashawalker]

Imo the only reason no one runs Defensive Amph is becasue of the shift toward Dragon offens, and that goes for most defensively inclined pokemon right now.

If you showed me those numbers anytime pre-salamence and post-Kokolokobanrampage, I would agree with you. However, the sudden drop offensive pokemon from OU made defensive play riskier.

Someone quote this post so i can elaborate on this point later. I hate typing on the phone.

Yes and no. While Salamence's presence provides a stiff competition for all dragons in UU, offensively and defensively, however it M-ampharos is a great pivot by providing support from both sides of the spectrum. Personally I cant wait to go home and test a Hyper offensive dragon team.