Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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jg1198 said:
I don't understand all the calls to remove pokemon from the viability rankings altogether. This makes utterly no sense whatsoever, as you can use any single pokemon you would like to in OU, and we have the lower ranks of C and D for a reason. While I am not suggesting that we rank the likes of sunkern and pachirisu, I see no reason that pokemon like Salamence, Donphan, and Rotom-C should not be included in the list. Yes they are outclassed, but that is the purpose of the list, to show people that these pokemon are deserving of C and D rankings, and that's why C and D rankings exist. Pokemon being in UU is not a valid reason to remove it from the list either, as we have clearly seen in this generation pokemon such as Terrakion, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Latias, and Celebi, that were all at one point in UU or BL, and some still are, and this in no way makes them not viable in OU. Gen V also shows this exceedingly well, as pokemon all the way in NU such as Stoutland, Victreebel, Sawsbuck were all used in OU to great success as weather sweepers, and of course the case of scolipede in gen V who was a viable offensive spiker in every tier and notable in OU for being the best counter-lead to Deo-D when it was legal, despite being in NU. Eliminating pokemon from the list designed to show a pokemon's viability just because it is outclassed or the list is too large is absurd.
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Still, things like Moltres: what nice does it have left in OU? Or Rotom-C, who has an added opportunity cost? And even if we don't remove things entirely, can't a lot of stuff in C go into D? And Liepard, who could possibly be used a suicide lead (Fake Out to break opposing leads' sashes, Prankster Taunt, Copy Cat to use the opponent's own rocks/spikes, Rain Dance for rain teams,) Swagplayer (as dumb as that is,) paralysis spreader, knock off, u-turn, trickscarf: it was ranked awhile back, but got removed. It's usable in OU, it can do stuff nothing else can, should it get added back (honest question, I actually do think it has more merit than Moltres)?

This list should be a source of information first and foremost, and removing pokemon from the list diminishes it's ability to relay information to new players who genuinely do not know whether a salamence is better than a dragonite or not because their only experience comes from in-game. This list should be acting as guide to new players, to make that learning curve a little easier to overcome.
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Honestly I don't think new players will be looking at lower ranks much, and if they are it's a list of "things not to use because they are 'bad'" to them. And a lot of that stuff is niche, it's only going to be used on certain teams or when it's the only thing that can "fill in the gaps" for your team, said gaps not the easiest thing to find for newer players. The previously discussed Kabutops is C, but it's a fearsome swift swimmer and a top choice for rain teams. When a new player sees "Kabutops is a C pokemon," what exactly does that mean to them? Or Scolipede in B; why is it in B? It's not strictly outclassed by anything in S or A, why do "top players" think it's only B? What new player really scrolls all the way down to C, sees Escavalier and thinks "gosh, totally perfect for my team?" (not saying Escavalier is bad, I think he's great.)

If new players are really interested in getting into Pokemon, they should be reading analyses, articles, other threads, watching replays; the viability ranks should only be very rough starting point, and sticking anything with some sort of niche in OU is just not the best idea to me. If we strictly go by D's definition of "small niche in OU, more trouble than their worth," D would be filled with lots and lots of stuff that (sane) new or experienced players would never consider using on a team, and they'd only be there to say "never use these pokemon." Not being listed is just as effective.
 
I don't think people get the point of this thread. I honestly think we should discuss how viable Pokemon are on their own merits. For example, Kabutops is deadly in rain sure, but outside of rain, he's outclassed by Azurmaril thanks to Huge Power and better coverage overall. Kabutops isn't a bad choice, just a less viable one. Which is the whole point of this thread. The more support something needs, the less viable it is. This is why we have a clear ranking system. So can we just compare Pokemon without taking into account things like their tier? Or maybe without arguing that certain Pokemon shouldn't be removed because of a obscure niche that's already done better by something else? Or maybe we can just accept that some Pokemon don't belong in OU at all? That's what the lower tiers are for, and people seem to forget that. (And I'm most likely going to get flamed like hell for this. Don't take it personally, it's just that it seems like that.)
 
Ajwf said:
Rotom-C and Salamence suck
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* Rotom-C handles Rotom-W, and can safely switch in and burn Excadrill, which Rotom-W cannot. It has its uses.
* Salamence is a bit trickier. What niches do it have? Right now, its only non outclassed sets are Physically Bulky Wish/Defog user, and Scarf Moxie user. To me, those sets are enough to call it C rank, but I'm not sure. Dragon/Flying is not so good defensively, and offensively both Outrage and Earthquake have immunities, making scarf sets hard to use. It should be ranked, as it has useful niches, but where it should be ranked is up for debate.
* That brings me to my next point. I don't think pokemon should be moved/gotten ridden of because they take up too much space. This is supposed to be a list of Pokemon that have niches. This should be some sort of threatlist. Just because Rotom-C is not a staple pokemon, doesn't mean it shouldn't be ranked, in order to save room for the better C ranked pokemon. There isn't a maximum number of pokemon that can be ranked here, and in my opinion every pokemon that has good uses should be ranked.
* Perfect segway to this point. Unranked pokemon, in my opinion, should be our priority to rank. Weavile, Gothitelle, Raikou, Hydreigon, Reuniclus have all be justly nominated for ranks between C+ and B. I'd like to make a couple other nominations:

Haxorus: This thing still hits super hard. It was severely hurt by Fairy types making an appearance, but it's still effective. Speaking of fairies, it actually can hit them relatively hard with Poison jab off of its fantastic attack set. Also worth noting is thanks to Mold Breaker it can hit Rotom-W with EQ. Its Dragon Dance set is not outclassed, unlike Mence's and is its best set. I see C rank right for him, but a + or - could be added.

Exploud: This takes a ton of support to be used, but when used correctly, it's a monster. It's likely to get an analysis, and in that analysis it's obvious Specs will be the only set, which makes it very expected. It has one niche that can be effective, so I think that's the definition of D rank? C- could also work.

Zoroark: Very very very niche, but when used correctly can be devastating. It's in a similar boat to Exploud, but takes less support, and is, by definition, very unpredictable. I see D or C- rank good for it. (PS: Analysis: √)

Barbaracle: Do I dare say it? Yes I do. It's a better ShellSmasher than Cloyster. It has great power when at +2, which is further supported by its two good offensive abilities and good offensive typing, is reasonably fast at +2, and has a decent defensive typing that easily allows it to come in on Talonflame, among other things. Its flaws are that it's very priority weak and its two STAB's, and one coverage move, have less than desirable accuracy, but it's still rather effective and underrated. I say C or C+.

Cresselia: She walls so much right now. Its recovery is much more reliable than people give it credit for, it has great support options, decent speed, workable offenses, and the very interesting Lunar Dance. I'd truly support B-, but I think a C+ nomination would be able to get further.

Uxie: In a similar boat with Cresselia. It has its uses on weather teams as a backup Rain/Sun setter. Don't underestimate the power of Rain Dance + Uturn; it can set up screens, then rain, then Uturn to Kabutops to do sweep forever. It also can set up rocks, use heal bell, and set up screens with Light Clay. It's only major problem is that mono Psychic typing, but it's still able to be effective this generation. I'd say C rank suits it well, probably C+.

Umbreon: It can be thought of as a mixture of Chansey and Mandibuzz. It has a useful Dark typing for a defensive pokemon, takes hits like a champ, can support its teammates with (Synchronize!) Heal Bell and Wish, and can hit Physical Attackers hard with Foul Play. And before anyone annoyingly asks, "Is this thing getting an analysis?," yes, its analysis is done. I think C rank suits it, whether it be C+ or C is up for debate.

Tornadus-I: This is sort of this middle child of Tornadus-T and Thundurus-I, and as well all know, middle children don't tend to be that good. But, Tornadus-I has niches over Tornadus-T with more attack, more special attack, and Prankster, and a niche over Thundurus-I in its different STAB. While Hurricane is unreliable, it works very well with Prankster Rain Dance, and turns Thundurus into a great rain sweeper, and with Uturn, a great rain supporter. It has its flaws, such as unreliable STAB outside of rain, no dual STAB, and bad defenses, but it's almost a necessity on a rain team. It should be B-.

Milotic: Milotic is very interesting. While Marvel Scale is a cool ability, its defensive sets are rather outclassed. What Milotic is good at is Competitive Sweeping, which, for those of you who don't know, is like Defiant Sweeping with Bisharp. It's a cool niche, and Milotic has decent speed, good power at +2, niche coverage, good bulk, and recovery, all to make it viable. Others suggest D rank, and I may agree, although the niche is a lot better than people make it out to be; Intimidate and Defog are everywhere. Either D or C- would be great.

Amoonguss: It is a bit of a cross between Mega-Venusaur and Tangrowth, but it can distance itself from both. It has spore, a poison typing, regenerator, and doesn't require the usage of a mega slot. It's a great defensive pivot, and forms a great defensive core with Slowbro, Slowking, Tangrowth, Alomomola, and/or Tornadus-T. It really deserves C+.
Sergeant Spooky said:
Moltres is bad
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* Moltres' SubToxic and Choice Specs sets are both unique to it, and it makes it a viable and effective, albeit niche, pokemon.
* I think the rankings communicate, or should communicate, what pokemon are overall the most effective and unique pokemon in the tier. Often, pokemon in C rank require a ton of support, but when that support is provided, they can be more effective than A rank pokemon. A rank is generally made up of pokemon that are successful often and very easy to use. Since there a lot of pokemon that can be useful to your team, given support, I think having a large list of C ranked pokemon makes sense, as long as they truly belong there.
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This brings me to the last thing I want to say. These are pokemon I think should move up or down. I've typed so much, so I honestly don't want to say why. I'll leave that to people who disagree or agree with me:
Garchomp (Mega), Clefable, Manectric (Mega), Scolipede, Tornadus-T, Chesnaught, Entei, Galvantula, Jellicent, Lucario, Staraptor, Togekiss, Aerodactyl (Mega), Ampharos (Mega) Kindgra, Blissey, Crawdaunt, Darmanitan, Kyurem, Salamence, Tangrowth, Tentacruel, Houndoom (Mega), Trevenant, Vaporeon, Infernape, Wobbuffet, Kabutops, Porygon2, Quagsire, Ludicolo, Shaymin, Meloetta, Banette (Mega), Mawile.
 
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Hclegend said:
I'm gonna go down this list one by one.
You CAN'T just use "Any Pokemon in OU" I get what you're going for, but there's Über tier too. THAT'S the tier where you can use any Pokemon. Just pointing that out.
While just being in the UU tier isn't a valid reason to remove Pokemon, there are several factors that make them less VIABLE in the OU environment. Rotom-C for example is outclassed by every Grass or Electric type in OU. I'm not going into details why because a previous poster already did that.
If we don't eliminate SOME Pokemon, the list is going to be bloated as hell and full of outclassed things that do not work n the OU environment (Donphan, Salamance, Haxourus, ETC.) which is why we have the lower tiers, to give them a chance. And I'm pretty sure that the reason why Terrakion and Keldeo are UU is because of a combination of Fairy types being introduced and Flying types decimating everything (Keldeo STILL is OU material, he just needs more support than before). And while your examples of NU Pokemon working in OU are nice, it's a rare case that they work well. And I'm pretty sure that the tiers are based on actual usage, which is why Haxorus and co fell from OU. Fairy type was introduced and most Dragons can't counter Fairies as well as they could Steel types. It's kinda sad really. Oh, and if you want the reason why people want Pokemom removed, look at the last version of this thread.
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Ok well no shit ubers exists, but anyways, USAGE =/= VIABILITY. A pokemon can have very low usage, and still be extremely viable,for example Deo-D in gen V which actually got banned for being so good, despite its low usage. Having low usage should not remove a pokemon from the list, and neither should being outclassed as that is the purpose of this list, to show what is viable, and what is not. While we shouldn't be going all the way down to pokemon such as raichu, other pokemon such as haxorus, galvantula, and salamence that are not so utterly unusable should still be kept in the very low parts of the list.

Hclegend said:
I don't think people get the point of this thread. I honestly think we should discuss how viable Pokemon are on their own merits. For example, Kabutops is deadly in rain sure, but outside of rain, he's outclassed by Azurmaril thanks to Huge Power and better coverage overall. Kabutops isn't a bad choice, just a less viable one. Which is the whole point of this thread. The more support something needs, the less viable it is. This is why we have a clear ranking system. So can we just compare Pokemon without taking into account things like their tier? Or maybe without arguing that certain Pokemon shouldn't be removed because of a obscure niche that's already done better by something else? Or maybe we can just accept that some Pokemon don't belong in OU at all? That's what the lower tiers are for, and people seem to forget that. (And I'm most likely going to get flamed like hell for this. Don't take it personally, it's just that it seems like that.)
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That's part of the point of the thread, to debate it on hopes of making as accurate of a list as possible. If we didn't argue and just implemented every suggested change, the list would be a wreck. We could just have the OU council make a list and give it to us and say "here, this is what's viable" but that's not the point of this thread. The issue that I have is that no pokemon should be removed just for the sake of a smaller list, or because its niche is relatively small, so long as it fills that niche. Salamence's niche is being the best mixed dragon dancer that doesn't use your mega slot, and also being arguably the best moxie scarf cleaner. Even though it's not the powerhouse it once was, We shouldn't be removing it from the list altogether, but I have no qualms about moving it even to D, because it is both outclassed, and a specific niche.

finncent1, absolutely beautiful post that sums up so much of what I have been trying so desperately to get across.
 
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Okay im not gonna lie when i first saw hippowdon as an A rank, i thought the person made this list was high. Its a uu pokemon, just to start. It has some nice bulk in the phys side akong with being able to get up stealth rocks and phase things out with roar. It gets a reliable recovery move in the form of slack off and can deal some heavy hits without that many attack evs. And then i started to realise some things. Let me name some of the best physical attackers in ou. Pinser, Aegislash, Char X, Gyrados, Scizor, Mawile, Talonflame, Ttar, Excadrill, Azumarill. Looking at those pokes, a total of 5 of them get ohkoed/2hkoed by eq. Of the others, 2 are 4x weak to rock (Hippo can learn stone edge) 2 hit it pretty hard with its main stab, and the other cant do shit to hippo, and if it wants to set up it just gets roared. Let me start getting out the calcs.

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 180-213 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 160-189 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now this one just.... wowed me

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 408-482 (97.1 - 114.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

THAT HAS A CHANCE TO NOT OHKO. THAT IS A SUPER EFFECTIVE PLUS 6 STAB ADAMANT ATTACK FROM A HUGE POWER AZUMARILL.

i dont feel like calcing much else and i think u guys get the picture. But now there is a predicament. Why is hippowdon still uu after that extreme bulk? it works great in ou and is such a powerful threat.
( I really hope got some things right in this one XD)
 
Cnorth26 said:
Okay im not gonna lie when i first saw hippowdon as an A rank, i thought the person made this list was high. Its a uu pokemon, just to start. It has some nice bulk in the phys side akong with being able to get up stealth rocks and phase things out with roar. It gets a reliable recovery move in the form of slack off and can deal some heavy hits without that many attack evs. And then i started to realise some things. Let me name some of the best physical attackers in ou. Pinser, Aegislash, Char X, Gyrados, Scizor, Mawile, Talonflame, Ttar, Excadrill, Azumarill. Looking at those pokes, a total of 5 of them get ohkoed/2hkoed by eq. Of the others, 2 are 4x weak to rock (Hippo can learn stone edge) 2 hit it pretty hard with its main stab, and the other cant do shit to hippo, and if it wants to set up it just gets roared. Let me start getting out the calcs.

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 180-213 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 270-318 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 160-189 (38 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 318-375 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 282-333 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now this one just.... wowed me

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 408-482 (97.1 - 114.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

THAT HAS A CHANCE TO NOT OHKO. THAT IS A SUPER EFFECTIVE PLUS 6 STAB ADAMANT ATTACK FROM A HUGE POWER AZUMARILL.

i dont feel like calcing much else and i think u guys get the picture. But now there is a predicament. Why is hippowdon still uu after that extreme bulk? it works great in ou and is such a powerful threat.
( I really hope got some things right in this one XD)
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Hippowdon is UU because it is under used (that's what UU stands for, just in case you weren't aware, and I mean no offense if you are aware of that) Smogon's tiers are based on usage, and Pokemon that are used in less than 3.4% (iirc) of battles, are placed in UU. (perhaps BL if UU bans them.)
 
Hclegend said:
So can we just compare Pokemon without taking into account things like their tier? Or maybe without arguing that certain Pokemon shouldn't be removed because of a obscure niche that's already done better by something else? Or maybe we can just accept that some Pokemon don't belong in OU at all? That's what the lower tiers are for, and people seem to forget that. (And I'm most likely going to get flamed like hell for this. Don't take it personally, it's just that it seems like that.)
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C's definiton: "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support ..." If we compare Kabutops and Azumarill then Azumarill wins out, sure, but with rain Kabutops is a lot more lethal, which means it's not outclassed by azu. Sure, C, but we're not listing stuff just because it's outclassed by something when not given the proper support or when it's not used on a team it shouldn't be.
 
Saying that Salamence is unviable because there are ways to us Fire Physical Attacks.
Bisharp aren't a reliable anser to Skarmory. If Skarmory don't use the move correctly, it don't get the boost. And Skarmory is not going to let it set up (Whirlwind).
Physical Thundurus-I is a biot rare (and to start, Thundurus-I is a counter of Skarmory by the more common special set).

Salamence has a niche in not needing a Mega Stone, having 20 more base speed than Dragonite (many threats are between those tiers), being unpredictable offensively, two good abilities to choose.

That Togekiss (not an S rank species) walls it is not news. It happens also to Dragonite.

And personally, Extremespeed Dragonite is a bit overrated. Priority is nice, but 80 BP unSTAB Normal is rather weak, and specially after a DD,
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 119-140 (28 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

B-/C+ are the right rank. MCharizard-X has better coverage, Dragonite has Multiscale and better bulk, but has more speed than Dragonite, less reliance of spinners (but Garchomp wins on that) and good abilities.
 
i dont feel like calcing much else and i think u guys get the picture. But now there is a predicament. Why is hippowdon still uu after that extreme bulk? it works great in ou and is such a powerful threat
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If I had to guess Id say that the typing and to a lesser extent its abilitys are the reasons for its low usage. There are just so many other good mons with similar typing and/or roles. Lando, Lando-T, Gliscor, Garchomp etc. Especially Lando-T and Garchomp are very popular and compete with Hippo for team slots.
Another thing are his abilitys. Sandstorm is a two edged sword and many teams dont appreciate it which means they have to use Sandforce which basicly means having no ability at all or at least a very situational one outside of a sandstorm team (where hippo will most likely use Sandstorm itself).

Dont get me wrong, Hippo is awesome, I am using it myself and its definetly one of the best walls in the tier but I guess because of the reasons mentioned its so low on usage, on first sight it doesnt seem as appealing as some other similar pokes and gets overlooked.
 
jg1198 said:
Hippowdon is UU because it is under used (that's what UU stands for, just in case you weren't aware, and I mean no offense if you are aware of that) Smogon's tiers are based on usage, and Pokemon that are used in less than 3.4% (iirc) of battles, are placed in UU. (perhaps BL if UU bans them.)
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thats how tiers are first created. then after that they usually start moving things up and down. look at kyurem b it was uu in usage, but was waaaaaaaaaaaay overpowered in the tier, and i think hippo will most likely be banned from uu soon.
 
Here's another reason to rank Salamence. Since it's banned in UU, OU is the only place it can be used. Even if it gets a D rank, it should be ranked
 
I believe C+ is too low for Mega Aerodactyl.

It's stupdly fast and has a great attacking power, and it's bulk isn't that bad. Sure, it's not that hard to kill (no priority and lots of weaknesses), but given the proper support, this pokemon can quickly become a dangerous sweeper. There aren't that many things that can stop a pokemon with 135 Attack powered by Tough Claws, and 150 speed, after it sets up.

I think should be somewhere around the B ranks, either B or B-.

Also C is too low for Quagsire.

This pokemon is becoming a staple in stall teams. It's one of the two unaware pokemon used to stop set up sweepers, and a very useful one. Properly paired with other stall mon, it can single handledy prevent the opponent from trying to set up. It's not as good as Clefable, but I think it's effective enough to be around the B ranks. I'd rank it B.
 
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finncent1 said:
* Rotom-C handles Rotom-W, and can safely switch in and burn Excadrill, which Rotom-W cannot. It has its uses.
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Solrock counters Talonflame and Pinsir-mega. Obviously has uses. Rank it, right?

See, if I want something to burn Exca and handle exca, why not use mew and save a rotom- form? Mew can wall off rotom pretty well, has good movepool. Chesnaught kills Rotom and Exca with its stabs, fears nothing but a burn from rotom-w and even then it can seed rotom and trap for a turn or two w/spiky shield. Loom handles both, esp. Toxic heal loom. So does Venu-mega but conniptions over "Mega slot Opportunity cost" seem to prevent people from remembering this. Can't celebi take both with Earth Power/Recover/GigaDrain and still have a utility move? What you're showing me isn't a niche, it's something multiple pokemon can do. Most grass types, actually.

Some pokemon do not need ranking. Some on that list are not good in OU. And I don't believe the fact that Mence has no UU rank means anything to this discussion... UU has banned a great deal of pokemon, they may eventually retest some of the ones they banned. Look on the ladder: Mence simply isn't used while Dragonite is. There is reason for that, the community as a whole recognizes it's low viability. The calc of Espeed to Mamo was funny because, let's be honest, neither Salamence or Dnite are staying in. Yes, Espeed isn't terrifically powerful, but it is great for picking off weaker targets and damaging HO revenge killers. It is a threat mence doesn't have, just part of the list of reasons why mence isn't that good this generation.
 
Ajwf said:
Some pokemon do not need ranking. Some on that list are not good in OU. And I don't believe the fact that Mence has no UU rank means anything to this discussion... UU has banned a great deal of pokemon, they may eventually retest some of the ones they banned.
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That's a fair point, but looking down the road, anything that is banned in UU and below (once UU has settled out) needs a rank somewhere, because anyone using it has to use whatever small niches it has.
 
Give it E rank... I think Ubers Gen5 had it as well as UU (Dusclops lel) for "Pokemon that shouldn't be used in tier but inexplicably are". That, to me, describes Salamence.
 
Meh Mence still does have an effective niche due to Fire Blast, Moxie, etc. I can't say much on it but I'd say it's at least viable, so it deserves to be higher than E Rank.

On another note, however, I honestly don't see any reason to use Jellicent anymore. When going through the S and A ranks, Jellicent can't wall very many of those threats right now, as many can beat it one on one. It can't really spinblock the premier spinner in OU, Excadrill, since it will do way too much damage to it before Jellicent can fight back. Defog's prominence also prevents its niche from being that valuable anymore, since spinblocking is less useful. If I wanted a bulky spinblocker, Aegislash, Trevenant, and Sableye all give better reward in this regard, and have their own qualities that warrant use. It's not a great stallbreaker either, especially with Mega Venusaur and the like around.

I only see Jellicent as a deadweight and would argue that it belongs at the very least in the D Rank.
 
Isn't Salamence's Mixed Wallbreaker set clearly outclassed by Kyurem-B though? Better STABs, access to much more powerful moves on both sides, and a better ability for breaking through Ability-granted immunities?
 
114 said:
Charizard X should be S+ tier. Aka, ban that mofo plx.
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Lolol. While I agree Zard X is very very good there are several pokes that hard wall it. I would recommend Hippowdon, Donphan, Azumarill, Thundurus-I with Prankster, Chomp with Scarf or Latios with Scarf. If you don't have one of those Pokes on your team or have one but it got killed and Zard X get a DD up its usually GG. So even though it's very good it should remain in OU.
 
finncent1 said:
Right, but how many pokemon can check and counter Rotom-W and Excadrill all in one? Certainly not Solrock :) Rotom-C is a good glue pokemon if you need something that can handle Water, Electric, Ground, Grass, Flying, and Rock Types, as well as a Pokemon that can burn physical attackers. It operates very similarly to Rotom-W, and while some may argue it puts you at a disadvantage for not using the best Rotom forme, that isn't true. If your team struggles against Excadrill, and needs a physical wall and a defensive and/or offensive pivot, Rotom-W will not work. Rotom-C has a niche that separates it from the other two viable Rotom formes, and I think it's a mistake not to rank it.

However, I do agree with your UU statements. If a Pokemon gets banned from UU, that shouldn't be a reason why it gets ranked here. That doesn't go to say that currently BL pokemon, like Gothitelle and Weavile, don't deserve a ranking; they do. But, if Florges ends up in BL (honestly who knows with the way things are going), its viability in OU won't be reassessed.
Click to expand...

Rotom-C cannot handle flying types. Please, all the flying types using fly stabs (Thundy-I, TornT, Talonflame, Pinsir-mega, Starraptor) are faster. It does not resist rock, so it may check TTar/Terrakion... although something tells me terrakion might be able to grab a 2hko-near OHKO through Close combat. All rotom- forms handle ground types, it's mold breaker that stops it. So it gets Excadrill... why are you wasting a rotom form for something that gets hit for neutral by Exca? Just get an actual check in a grass type to both rotom-w AND exca. You don't need rotom-C and it is definitely NOT a mistake to remove it from ranks. It isn't relevant or useful in OU.
 
I brought this up on the other viability thread but it wasn't noticed so I'll repost it here:

Mew B---> B-. The only real niche Mew has in OU is defogging. However, despite its enormous movepool, its niche is, for the most part, taken up by the combination of Skarmory, Latias, and Latios. Similarly to Mew, Skarmory can set up stealth rock, phaze, and has access to taunt (though it is slower and doesn't have much space to use it). However, Skarmory has much better physical bulk, and a typing that allows it to switch into nearly every stealth rock setter. The one thing Mew has over Skarmory is speed. However, if you're going for a speedy defogger, Latias or Latios are generally better options. Latias has much better bulk on the special side, and its defensive bulk isn't that much worse. Additionally, its dragon typing gives it many more opportunities to switch in. The only real reason to use Mew is if you absolutely can't use skarmory, and have nothing else that can set up rocks on your team, giving it a pretty small niche.
 
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I just want to drop an interesting little mega aerodactyl set into this thread.
World's Fastest Wall
Aerodactyl @ aerodactylite
Tough Claws
236 HP / 252+ Def 16 Spe
-Roost
-Taunt
-Stone Edge
-Stealth Rock/Earthquake/Fire Fang/Tailwind/Whirlwind/Crunch/Aerial Ace/Defog (Honestly doesn't matter. It's really depends on what else you want aerodactyl to do)
The 16 speed EVs are to outspeed jolly mega pinsir.

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 93-111 (25.8 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 126-148 (35 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 744-876 (249.6 - 293.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 133-157 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Staraptor: 374-444 (119.8 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 198-233 (55 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 297-349 (82.5 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 480-568 (176.4 - 208.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Aerodactyl has great typing for checking flying type cores and has a reliable recovery option in roost to continue to counter these powerful mons. Stone edge OHKOs all of these flying types without much trouble and Mega Aero is able to outspeed pinsir and staraptor with minimal investment. The only threat these common cores pose is a choice banded close combat from Staraptor after a roost and even that fails to OHKO.
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 296-350 (82.2 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This mega aerodactyl set is the fastest physical wall in existence and also checks other huge threats like Mega Charizard X
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 204-241 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 254-302 (85.2 - 101.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+3 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Mega Aerodactyl: 294-346 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 290-344 (89.5 - 106.1%) after multi scale is broken.

As far as walls go, no other wall comes close to mega aerodactyl's speed giving it an interesting niche as a defensive Pokemon and no other wall (as far as I know) can put a complete stop to the popular Talonraptor core as easily as Mega Aerodactyl can. It's offensive presence, even uninvested, is above average. This defensive set along with mega aero's more common offensive sets I believe give Aerodactyl enough unpredictability to deserve a B or B- rank.
 
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