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Chain Chomp

Bulky Gyarados or even normal Gyarados appears to counter this one. Switch in on the Draco Meteor, it survives. Two Meteors doesn't kill. Switch in on the swords dance... you can't earthquake him and the Intimidate partially gets rid of the Swords Dance. (just in case you're doing outrage).

On top of that, Ice Fang would hurt a lot.

So all in all... Stone Edge seems important to take away Gyarados, Togekiss, Mantine, etc. etc. It doesn't take away Cresselia... but Cresselia is legendary and banned in some (stupid) places where pokemon is played :-/

You do know that it has 130 base attack vs only 80 sp attack, right? You also know that outrage is about as strong as draco meteor only it's physical and has practically no drawback? Just saying, there really doesn't seem like a hugely compelling reason to use a special set with a poke who has 50 higher base attack than sp atk other than as a gimmick. Just my opinion.

Like others have said before: The Meteor is powerful enough to take away the 50 point difference... especially when common garchomp counters have low special defense. It is very difficult to find a pokemon who is simultaniously strong enough to survive a Meteor on the Sp. Def side... and strong enough to survive an earthquake/outrage on the Physical side.
 
I have had a Swords Dance/Earthquake/Draco Meteor/Fire Blast Garchomp waiting in the wings for about a month now. I used it in the battle tower and it worked well, but I saw it as nothing more than a novelty. Now, seeing how well it works with Spikes/Stealth Rock on the field, Im going to put it into a team. Sweet.
 
I saw someone list Vaporeon as a possible counter before and I thought it was viable so I ran a few damage calculations on metalkid...

None of this takes SR/Spikes or lefties into consideration,

If I switch into a fire blast, we all know that that will do next to nothing.

Assuming I switch in to a Draceo Meteor, the first one will do 248-292 damage out of 448, which is 55-65% After the special attack drop, it will do another 126-148 damage, or 28-33% The maximum you would get is 440, so Vaporeon would survive by 8 and then Ice beam, although a smart battler would probably switch out against a vaporeon.

Switching into and Earthquake would take 195-229 or 43-51% damage. A swords dance Earthquake would have a chance to OHKO, if you got about max damage with it. It does 386-454 Damage, or 86-101%.

Personally, while I wouldn't use it because it doesn't fit my team and I would rather make use of it with a choice scarf, I could see this setup working as long as you get rid of bulky waters and flyers/levitators.
 
Dragonite @ Life Orb / Dragon Fang
~ Draco Meteor
~ Outrage
~ Fire Blast
~ Thunder Wave / Thunderbolt / Heal Bell / Icy Wind, etc.

Like I said before I've been testing Dragonite and I think the most effective set that takes advantage of Draco Meteor is:
-Draco Meteor
-Dragon Dance
-Earthquake/DragonClaw
-Thunder/FireBlast

You use the Dragon Dance to get your speed up to par with certain other dragons and Draggy counters (Mence, Chomp, Weavile, etc), that obviously brings in their Bronzong, Skarmory, and other Physical Wall types. Thunder/FireBlast it if its a Steel type like those two, if its something like Weezing, you Draco Meteor it, and with Draggy's higher Special Attack than Garchomp you will do a lot more damage to the main counters with Draco. You can continue to DD up while also using the Physical move to do some constant damage. Which move that is is really up to the user as both have their +/-s. Dragon Claw gets STAB while Earthquake can deal with Tyranitar, Rhyperior, and other random threats like Steelix (if no FB).

I actually like this set more than Chain Chomp but EVs tend to be a big problem for Dragonite because it lacks the Speed of the faster Dragons and the main reason to actually use this over Salamence (who might do a better job of it with higher Speed and attack stats) is the option of Thunder. If you don't use Thunder obviously just go with Salamence as it has some better options with the aforementioned bonuses it gets over Draggy. Salamence doesn't need to DD all the time like Draggy to outspeed things like Heracross, Medicham, Lucario, etc but Dragonite has that *cool* factor about him (mainly his lack of usage) and the ability to survive some Ice Beams with his Special Defense.
 
Did you read the thread at all, Jibaku, or just the first post? Because I've already answered these many times. But whatever, I'll answer them again.
Jibaku said:
1) Cress walls you easeir
Big deal? This was already mentioned in the first post, and ways have been brought up to get around it.
Jibaku said:
2) Gyarados stops you easier (and more thanks to the recoil damage)
Read the thread.
Jibaku said:
3) Draco Meteor can force you to switch quite a bit, which ruins this thing's effectiveness.
You'll generally only use it twice. Who cares if you have to switch anyway? Garchomp is easy to switch in. I hardly see it "ruining its effectiveness". How does it ruin it? Care to explain?
Jibaku said:
4) Suicune now counters you
Big deal. So you force it to rest and if its not rest/sleep talk, you swords dance up and destroy it/
Jibaku said:
6) For this thing to efficiently pull an endgame sweep, you'd need to remove the fliers/levitators
lol. We've already gone over how Gyarados and Weezing are destroyed. You think Gengar and Flygon, who take even more damage, are going to do anything?

Yeah, please read the thread first before replying.
 
Good and novel idea. The suprise factor more then makes up for any downside it has, the fact that it destroys most things people would consider garchomp counters and then some makes it frightening.
 
Hidden Power Ice Zapdos? 252 HP/Calm. Stealth Rock might be the problem though...

I've been thinking about this one and I ran a few numbers. 252/220 Calm can take a Draco Meteor (Does at most 40% according to Metalkid's calc) and also the Sp Atk dropped one next turn (20% again, Metalkid's calc.) There's a 1% chance Zapdos can't OHKO with max HP Ice taking into account Garchomp's Life Orb recoil. However, for those on WiFi with Zapdos, you need at least a power of 35 to guarantee a 2HKO taking into account the recoil of Life Orb and you not missing...


Zapdos is uncommon though so this set can still work.
 
If I was to run this set, I would run this variation:

Garchomp @ Life Orb
Adamant, Sand Veil, 252 Sp.Atk / 240 Speed / 16 Attack
- Substitute
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast / Surf

Instead of using Swords Dance the first turn, use Substitute. You now have a free Substitute with which to work on their switch. You can safely use Outrage from behind the Substitute twice, in most cases. The Substitute also blocks status that would really hurt this set. Also, you can safely use Draco Meteor from behind the substitute as well, and it turns their quick revenge kill into a preliminary "break the substitute" kill. Even if they switch to something faster with an ice attack, they now have to kill that substitute, and most things that fit that description are fragile and would likely die to Outrage. If it is a physical wall, throw a Draco Meteor at it.

To be honest, Surf might be a better option, with more reliable accuracy and the ability to not be completely walled by Heatran, here. But, the last attack is mainly filler, anyway. The whole point is that with that substitute up, you have the opportunity to safely Outrage at least twice, and sometimes not until after you have already safely expended your Draco Meteor power.
 
Against that Ludicolo, for instance, if you were to use Substitute as it switched in, you can then freely use Draco Meteor once while it kills your substitute with Ice Beam. Then, Outrage, and that sucker is dead.
 
and then Starmie/Weavile etc. comes in and revenge kills you which is a lot of why the original set doesn't have Outrage as far as I can tell
 
Half of the time, though, you may still have that substitute up. Most of the things that this set intends to screw up -- physical walls -- will not intend to immediately hit you back, and sometimes will not even have the resources to. I guess you could go still go with Earthquake, but the main point of my post was in regards to Substitute over Swords Dance.
 
It's about time I make an appearance in this thread after over 3 pages of trainwrecking. Like Jumpman defending his Boah, allow me to clear up some confusion.

First off, it seems a certain few of you seem to think this set is so overreliant on Garchomp's "weak" 80 base Special Attack and that it strays too far from the original set that it cannot, will not and may not be as effective as the standard. So, I will point you to this thing's type coverage. Dragon/Ground is resisted by Skarmory and Bronzong. Fire Blast OHKOs the former nearly all the time (and I mean 99% absolute minimum damage), Bronzong is 2HKOed unless it has Heatproof, in which case Earthquake is of course going to bang it up badly. And that is max HP, max Special Defense, +SpDef natured Bronzong here.

In short, Draco Meteor + Earthquake has the same type coverage as Dragon Claw + Earthquake, and given the boost in Special Attack this Garchomp has over the standard, Fire Blast is going to do an awful load of damage should it ever come to play, more than the pathetic Fire Fang or the conventional Fire Blast-for-floatin'-Steels.

Now, may I also point out that more than half of the set works the same as the good old standard we were all calling uber months before the game was out? Swords Dance, Earthquake @ Life Orb. What Chainchomp has instead of the "standard" is that it uses Draco Meteor to quickly dispell the counters the old set brought up, but unlike a lot of gimmicks like Surf Tyranitar and Focus Punching Alakazam, it is not doing away with its main task. It just helps itself clear the tables before it cleans them up.

Now, some random points I read this morning I'm going to counter.

Deck Knight said:
what if they run more SpDef than you calculated?

When I do damage calculations, I am not going to promise more than I can. I took into account the absolute minimums of damage my attack will do. Most of the time (ESPECIALLY if you use the recommended Stealth Rock support, which I'll get into later) you will find these "counters" not even surviving two Draco Meteors without any residual damage, however, better safe than sorry. If people run more SpDef on their Hippowdons or Skarmories or whatever to take this on, I think the set's been pretty succesfull at shaking up the metagame at first, but also that they will take more damage from the Earthquakes Garchomp deals out as well as other hits (assuming they took their EVs from Defense). In other other words, the total damage from, say, Draco Meteor + Earthquake will not really be affected much if they shift EVs from Defense to Special Defense (though it will be cut down a tiny little bit because putting EVs into a lower defensive stat helps more % wise than a higher one, hence why Blissey is getting Defense EVs and Dusknoir is getting max HP).

relies too much on Stealth Rock man, not cool

Pretend you live in the peaceful world of Diamond/Pearl before this discovery was released. Would you refuse to use Stealth Rock on your team, or would you go and abuse the broken Spikes rip-off that it is to mangle dangerous fiends such as Salamence, Gyarados and Zapdos? Yeah, I thought so.

The same goes for Sand Stream, too. The effect really hurts a shitload on opponents sometimes, Sand Veil will help out Garchomp, not to mention that Hippowdon makes a nice lead on teams based around this since it can also Stealth Rock.

Cresseliayea!!!!!!!!!!!

Have fun sacrificing a slot for Crunch or Fling or something, I guess. To me this is like these people that put Surf on their Tyranitar because of Rhyperior. It is nothing new that Garchomp is stopped cold by Cresselia, but it is certainly not the hardest Pokemon to get rid of anyway by a longshot thanks to Pursuit. If it was countered by Shed Shelling Skarmory like the standard Subbing, Swords Dancing variant I would be more worried, personally...

futuresuperstar, I like how you're being creative (instead of an asshole), but I would really not want to lock myself into Outrage simply because the biggest Special wall in the game shows up, especially not if Chainchomp catches up.

draco meteor is such a huge drawback outrage is better!!!

Thanks, you made my evening.

EDIT

And for anyone pretending this is pure theorycraft...it has been tested by several people. This idea has been swinging around for a week or so now I think.
 
maniaclyracist and I were discussing this set over AIM and concluded with this:

The fact that there's Life Orb and a move that sharply lowers your SA, even being at 140 BP, basically *requires* Sandstream and Stealth Rock support (more on the Sandstream), otherwise the set probably won't work, seeing as you'd lose 10% health and possibly getting a special attack drop at a single outprediction. Not just the pogeys that come to mind, since one of them simply has to be there. So either build your team around this, or use something else.

I know how strong a Life Orbed Meteor from a 259 SA Chomp can be, but Garchomp kinda relies on that move to destroy it's non Cress/Skarm/Bronzong counters, which can be rather unreliable in the long run.

I still like the set though and it's definitely still a deadly force, however.
 
I'm no expert but I have had a theory for a long time that mixed attackers are going to become more and more potent in D/P, and this implies that I'm on the right track perhaps. I think things in advance were so tailored to clear-cut lines between physical and special that we're still thinking too heavily in those terms in a game where it's become more viable to have both on one Pokemon, especially with an item like life orb.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are many more unexpected mixed sets to be thought up and feared.
 
The fact that there's Life Orb and a move that sharply lowers your SA, even being at 140 BP, basically *requires* Sandstream and Stealth Rock support (more on the Sandstream), otherwise the set probably won't work, seeing as you'd lose 10% health and possibly getting a special attack drop at a single outprediction. Not just the pogeys that come to mind, since one of them simply has to be there. So either build your team around this, or use something else.

Did you look at the damage calculations at all? With just Stealth Rock the set does what it's meant to do.
 
Did you look at the damage calculations at all? With just Stealth Rock the set does what it's meant to do.
Yes, I did. I simply had to mention Sandstream because of this:

Cresselia and Togekiss absolutely wall this set, making Garchomp basically dead weight on a team if these 2 pokemon are present. Cresselia itself isn't easy to Pursuit, thanks to Reflect and insane HP/Def. With Sandstorm, both of their Lefties are gone. Cresselia can't heal up very well in Sandstorm (25% btw, not 33%), and Togekiss gets 2HKOed by Draco Meteor after it takes Stealth Rock damage
 
Cresselia and Togekiss absolutely wall this set, making Garchomp basically dead weight on a team if these 2 pokemon are present.
Blissey does the same to plenty special attackers that are still very potent such as Raikou so I don't see your point, especially since Blissey is more popular than both.
 
Blissey does the same to plenty special attackers that are still very potent such as Raikou so I don't see your point, especially since Blissey is more popular than both.
The thing is, is that Garchomp holds a Life Orb, while Raikou holds Leftovers. Raikou can heal up steadily, whereas Garchomp can't and will lose 10% each turn it attacks, making it rather useless when such thing happens. Raikou can still counter some more pokemon like Zapdos, but Garchomp can't switch into things without losing quite a bit of effectiveness, getting walled, rinse and repeated.
 
I can't see why people are complaining needing stealth rock to set it up.How do people use Garchomp in first place they use it late in games where stuff have already taken damage.
 
Jibaku said:
Cresselia and Togekiss absolutely wall this set, making Garchomp basically dead weight on a team if these 2 pokemon are present. Cresselia itself isn't easy to Pursuit, thanks to Reflect and insane HP/Def. With Sandstorm, both of their Lefties are gone. Cresselia can't heal up very well in Sandstorm (25% btw, not 33%), and Togekiss gets 2HKOed by Draco Meteor after it takes Stealth Rock damage
Most forms of Garchomp don't do shit to Cresselia -anyway-, so there's no fucking big deal here. And Togekiss gets 2HKOed by Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock? Awesome, then there's no problem!

Hint: Stop telling me shit that's obvious and I've pointed out already. Stop trying to tell me shit that I've argued in the topic already without reading it.
 
Who uses Moonlight Cresselia anyway, most of them Resttalk.

I honestly do not see why you're pulling Togekiss in this especially considering Stealth Rock and all and that it's a very unlikely Pokemon to come into Garchomp.
 
Most forms of Garchomp don't do shit to Cresselia -anyway-, so there's no fucking big deal here. And Togekiss gets 2HKOed by Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock? Awesome, then there's no problem!

Hint: Stop telling me shit that's obvious and I've pointed out already. Stop trying to tell me shit that I've argued in the topic already without reading it.
Actually I beg to differ. Swords Danced Life Orbed Dragon Claw 2HKOs Cresselia. Cresselia will only OHKO back with incredible amount of special attack. Or you might find yourself facing a Modest Cresselia and your Garchomp is holding a Yache Berry to survive the Ice Beam and 2HKO back with Dragon Claw after a Dance. CBOutrage hurts Cress and so does Danced ones. However, Draco Meteor is rather pitiful against it, and it shrugs off the hit without problem.

Togekiss actually only gets 2HKOed after SR and Sandstream. You'd have to deal like max on both Draco Meteors to 2HKO without SS.

All Cress varieties I've seen are Moonlight versions btw, if only because it gets an extra support move like Reflect which prevents it from dying to Pursuit. I know Togekiss is generally not gonna come into Chomp but it will once it figures out the set...in just one calculation.

And obviously I was referring to Modest Togekiss, not the special wall Calm versions
 
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