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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)

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JayHankEdLyon said:
Poison Heal Snorlax looks like it's winning by a landslide, and for good reason (add my vote to the masses!). Even without Facade, its viability skyrockets with great passive recovery (which, barring clerics on your side or perfect timing, is unaffected by Knock Off) and immunity from the burns it so hates. It would certainly play differently from Gliscor, but would also be a perfect partner to the scorp just like the Gligar/Snorlax UU combo I so loved in Gen V.

Snorlax walls special attacks, Gliscor walls physical (and absorbs Snorlax's only weakness, Fighting), both constantly recover, one can set up Rocks while the other Whirlwinds...so exciting. Sure it isn't perfect (Keldeo in particular laughs at this core) but combining Gliscor with the closest thing we'd have to an offensive Blissey would be a blast.

Facade is icing on the cake. The important thing is that Curselax can suddenly be a thing again.

(Also, sorry, but the whole "No MegaCross with Roost" is a bit too much of a stretch from the meta for my taste. Every change proffered to this thread are things that GF feasibly could've done given the current mechanics, and saying Roost somehow isn't allowed on MegaCross is a fundamental mechanical change that would set a terrible precedent for what so far has been a very interesting thread/meta. Thankfully even regular Hera with Roost is pretty boring, especially against the support behind Chandy and Lax in this round, but I really hope this is the last time a mon is considered that changes the actual mechanics of the game.)
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Whether or not Roost Mega Heracross would exist is irrelevant to this thread. Even if we assume that it did exist if Roost Heracross won, i wouldn't allow it to be discussed in this thread or to exist in the ladder because it would completely overshadow regular Heracross and would make the whole theorymon pointless. So, you can say that Roost Mega Heracross would exist, but it would have been banned in this thread and the ladder.

Poison Heal Snorlax
 
Minnakht said:
So, um... hi. I made that last suggestion. I just figured 'hey, there's no other drizzler than Politoed, let's suggest one', and Bronzong is a 'mon I like and one that has really fitting lore, so I went for it. I'm no good at this, actually, it's just that there isn't a way to tell other than having me tell you.
It might be a somewhat bad idea, I realize - you're providing good arguments why.

Personally, I don't really want to vote for Poison Heal Snorlax. It sounds like it'd be really tough to deal with, even alone - something people would have to specifically work against/around. Last month's Cresselia was already similar - she was a thing that was difficult to take down and so it probably outclassed everything else. Of course, I have no way to know what'll really happen, but I think what'll happen is we'll have a thing that regenerates an eighth of its big HP pool each turn while lacking a quadruple weakness.
It'll probably be an interesting experiment to implement it and see what happens, but I speculate the results won't be satisfying - it'll just be a big powerful hitter and hard to wear down - can't even burn it when it's poisoned.


I'll just vote for my own thing, Drizzle Bronzong, since it could actually possibly have teams built around it rather than just being a thing that sits well by itself, and give potential rain teams something other than Politoed. I have no idea if that'll be viable either, since again - I'm new, inexperienced, and don't understand things.
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Having a better rain starter than Politoed is an interesting idea, and one which may deserve a second chance in a later voting round. Poison Heal Snorlax may be borderline broken, but I was so frustrated with the results of the last two rounds that I want to vote for something which will leave a footprint in the OU metagame for sure even if Poison Heal Snorlax may be going overboard. Your idea is definitely worth discussing, but I would suggest a different rain starter than Bronzong, preferably one with reliable recovery that can bring in rain several times over the course of a battle.
 
With Poison Heal Snorlax now doesn't have to run a resttalk set, and can just run protect instead of those 2. That frees it up for another spot that could be filled with crunch. But it still can't do anything to common stall pokemon like Skarm or Quag. There are still problems that it faces, but it can be a frightening mon. I'll mention some other stuff later after the voting ends.

I don't really even want to give the other theorymons a chance just because of how interesting this concept is. Drizzle Bronzong could work, since it is instant weather, but it's just to passive of a pokemon to leave a lasting mark. Chandy already has 2 great abilities. And it's really one dimensional as someone stated previously. Heracross is just an ok pokemon. Roost isn't changing it that much. Especially when it's very unlikely that the opponent will give Hera a chance to roost, when he/she is trying to stop a sweep or laying pressure on the Heracross.

and for my closing remarks, I will leave these calcs.

+1 0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 301-355 (101 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax in Sun: 213-252 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Snorlax ain't fukin around anymore, so u better check urself charizard.
 
Poison Heal Snorlax for sure. I'd also argue that it fits Snorlax in terms of flavor because he gets Immunity, like Gliscor and Zangoose, and is often shown in the anime to be immune to poison. Maybe passive healing from it is a bit too far, but then again, he did chow down on poisonous vines in the anime, so it makes a lot of sense.

Only thing I'd worry about is the lack of Thick Fat, which makes him a less perfect counter to CharY. Lack of speed means you can't run a viable Substitute set, but Protect + 1 turn of healing is good enough for me. Lack of a real item is somewhat of a bummer, but I think like someone said before, it'd make him a great physical Blissey.
 
As others have pointed out before me, Poison Heal Snorlax looks very interesting and it's a much-needed buff. It gives Snorlax utility by becoming a decent switch-in to status users (provided Poison Heal is active), a powerful STAB Facade, and reliable recovery.
 
Voting at this point seems like more of a formality than anything with Poison Heal Snorlax towering over the competition, but I'd like to give my thoughts on our choices anyway.

  • Levitate Chandelure is theoretically interesting, especially since guessing whether or not it's Levitating creates mind games. It creates new switch-in opportunities, though at the expense of complete immunity to Fire moves (and the boost Flash Fire gives.) While the option is certainly helpful, as others have already noted, Mold Breakers are still a major issue (particularly M-Gyara and Excadrill.) Overall, it's not that huge a boost, nor do I believe it is the most interesting topic of discussion (there's only so much more that opens up.)
  • Roost Heracross makes for some mean bulky sets. There's a lot of potential here, even with whether or not a particular Heracross will be Mega or Roost. I think the biggest turn-off is the lack of Roost Mega-Cross, but I totally understand why that's not an option. I'd honestly be happy to discuss this one at some point.
  • I think there's a reason Poison Heal Snorlax is winning by a landslide. It gives a massive boost to what's currently a lackluster mon, while changing how it plays. No longer is status an issue, and Poison Heal recovery is awesome. Facade is of course scary as well. That said, it's an unboosted Facade (as are his other options,) so without Curse Snorlax likely won't be tearing up the metagame. This one's just too interesting to pass up.
  • I'm actually kind of sad to see no love for Drizzle Bronzong. Seriously, if Politoed can make it work I'm sure Bronzong has what it takes. A new EQ weakness is rough, and there are definitely other issues, but a new Drizzle user is arguably more interesting that Poison Heal Snorlax. It likely wouldn't be as good, but that's not what usually drives me to vote for something. (On a related note, I'd love to see more users of Drizzle, Drought, Sand Stream and even Snow Warning nominated in the future.)
All of that said, I'm jumping on the Poison Heal Snorlax train. It might not be as interesting as a new Drizzle user, but it would certainly cause really cool metagame shifts.
 
Tbh I really love the idea of Drizzle Bronzong and was pretty excited when I saw it because I absolutely loved rain in gen V. But when I looked deeper into it I'm not sure I would use it over Politoad. It has no water moves or thunder to take advantage of the rain and will miss his other abilities. I even think it could be worth running rain dance in combination with 1 of his last abilities. Rain dance with Heat Proof will give him an actual resistance to fire while rain dance with Levitate gives him an immunity to ground and neutrality to fire getting rid of 2 weaknesses. That said I still love the idea and obviously having the rain instantly without taking up a move slot will still be cool, but I'm just not sure if it would make Bronzong better or worse overall.

So my next option was to vote for myself but that seems highly unnecessary, so I'm just going to give a shout out to the authors of this thread (https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue7/abilities) who also thought of poison heal snorlax in the past.
 
Voting for Poison Heal Snorlax. Makes sense as the fat bugger just eats anything and seems content in eating even poisonous things. And then of course the competitive aspects are amazing as already said. Like a slightly lesser Blissey or Chansey but with offensive presence.
 
Not that it matters, but I'm for poison heal snorlax, because it sounds absolutely amazing, even if it makes no sense.

I do however demand that specifically drizzle bronzong, but also both the others, get slated again some time in the future
 
Sorry if this too early but Poison Heal Snorlax is clearly going to win at this point...

I should've posted calcs earlier to show how truly terrifying Curselax is with this buff. These Pokemon are considered offensive counters to regular Snorlax. These are all calcs with one curse so it assumes you immediately switch into your counter! It is important to note none of these even take into account the fact that Snorlax can protect to gain more toxic heal as well.
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 226-266 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 324-382 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With even the tiniest bit of prediction Snorlax tears through Aegislash as it is slower and can hit it with crunch.

+1 0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 255-301 (61.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 180-212 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Poison Heal

Conkeldurr loses in this scenario even with Drain Punch recovery as one Drain Punch only heals at max a little over 20% of Conks HP and Lax hits for 60% at min.

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 338-400 (64.5 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 370-436 (136.5 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mienshao loses this scenario even with LO it fails to OHKO lax and lax can OHKO it right back.

Now I know what your thinking were going at this from the wrong side lets attack lax from the special side.

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 242-286 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 282-334 (107.6 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gengar barely makes a dent and lax can OHKO it with Crunch your best bet is to go for the D-bond and hope Lax kills itself with you.

252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 283-338 (54 - 64.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 289-343 (55.1 - 65.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 164-193 (58.3 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lucario fails to KO on both sides if Lax is carrying protect and Snorlax 2HKOs it with Facade. If Lax isn't carrying protect its probably carrying EQ OHKOs luke as well.

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 356-420 (67.9 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. -1 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 327-385 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 374-442 (71.3 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 268-316 (83.7 - 98.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

These are the only two scenarios I could find where Snorlax does not come out on top (if there aren't stealth rocks on your side of the field). You better hope you get roost on your Heracross as without it you're dead weight, also if Snorlax is able to pick up 2 curses he can basically break any team that does not carry landorous who can barely counter Lax once and zero times with SR on the field. This feels very imbalanced as there aren't any defensive checks to Lax either as it can poison heal, rack up curses and is immune to all negative status. The only pokemon you really need to run for a Snorlax sweep to be possible is kill your opposing team's phaser (mandi or hippo primarily). As I stated before Poison Heal Snorlax feels very unbalanced and game-breaking as it beats almost all offensive counters 1v1 and cannot be countered defensively because of curse boosting and status immunity combined with insane residual recovery.
 
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Seiterman said:
Voting at this point seems like more of a formality than anything with Poison Heal Snorlax towering over the competition, but I'd like to give my thoughts on our choices anyway.
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Actually the second pokemon would be pick up for the last vote round, then there still is a little reason to vote.
 
Main problem with Drizzle Bronzong is that it can easily be Pursuit trapped by Tyranitar who can immediately change the weather into sand.

4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (43 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 80-96 (19.8 - 23.7%) -- possible 5HKO

Not very impressive. Also being weak to Char Y in a weather war without a Water STAB is pretty detrimental.
 
acestriker19 said:
These are the only two scenarios I could find where Snorlax does not come out on top (if there aren't stealth rocks on your side of the field). You better hope you get roost on your Heracross as without it you're dead weight, also if Snorlax is able to pick up 2 curses he can basically break any team that does not carry landorous who can barely counter Lax once and zero times with SR on the field. This feels very imbalanced as there aren't any defensive checks to Lax either as it can poison heal, rack up curses and is immune to all negative status. The only pokemon you really need to run for a Snorlax sweep to be possible is kill your opposing team's phaser (mandi or hippo primarily). As I stated before Poison Heal Snorlax feels very unbalanced and game-breaking as it beats almost all offensive counters 1v1 and cannot be countered defensively because of curse boosting and status immunity combined with insane residual recovery.
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It is pretty incredible that just a few hours ago most of us including I thought Poison Heal Snorlax was pretty underwhelming and now people are thinking "Holy shit, this thing is broken!" I guess there are a few ways to beat it. If it is not carrying EQ, then CB or Swords Dance Terrakion can come in and maul it. Also Mega Mawile can come in and boost on it, especially if it has not Mega Evolved yet. If it does not have Fire Punch or EQ, Ferrothorn can Leech Seed it and wear it down with Iron Barbs. Otherwise, you could try to get creative and Trick it a Choice Scarf or use Gastro Acid / Skill Swap, etc. to kill it with its own poison. There are a number of other Pokemon you can sacrifice to bring Snorlax down to a low enough health that another Pokemon can come in and clean up. So I guess there are ways to beat it, they just might not be conventional currently.

(Also some self-promotion here; we could bring Intimidate Mega Aerodactyl back up for another vote because it can Taunt Snorlax and easily stall it out.)
 
Heracross_Dream.png

Can we move on now?

Poison Heal Snorlax
 
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