People really believe that Mega Pinsir should drop to A+? No, that's very stupid in my whole hearted opinion. It is so freaking powerful after a Swords Dance that it is crazy, and yes it has one 'main' set, but does it need more than just that set in all honesty? For instance, if it got Roost, would it ever use it? It doesn't have to have more than one set to be great. Deoxys-Speed has a plethora of sets, yet it isn't S? Not everything has to have everything. Mega Pinsir gets exactly what it needs to succeed. It can 2HKO large portions of the metagame and OHKOes the other portion, so it can sweep a large portion of the tier, which is what S rank is for. Mega Pinsir should stay in S-Rank. Not because the metagame hasn't 'adapted' yet, because Mega Venusaur only fell because people realized it wasn't the greatest wall ever, but what is going to replace Mega Pinsir as the ultimate sweeper?
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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How exactly is it outclassed by terrakion and infernape? Well for one terrakion isn't the biggest talonflame bait ever and can actually take a brave bird if it has to. Terrakion also has a great dual stab and access to swords dance making it a better sweeper. It also does not have to worry as much about aegislash and mega mawile, The ability to set up rocks is a huge advantage, as well. Justified means it can switch into some knock off users and get a +1. Quick attack isn't the most powerful priority move, but it's better than anything mienshao gets.
Infernape has one of the best dual stabs in the metagame and the ability to go truly mixed making it a better wallbreaker. It can also set up rocks and u-turn out if it wants.
We haven't even got to discussing conkeldurr who is a better pivot than mienshao because it can actually switch into things. It also has knock off, isn't burn bait because of guts, and has one of the best priority moves in the game.
Why would you use mienshao over any of these pokemon? If you feel like it deserves an analysis, go ahead and ask if you can reserve one.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 256-303 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I'd hardly call that taking a Brave Bird, and if SD:
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 342-403 (105.8 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It can't take a Brave Bird, even with the Rock-typing. And Mienshao has access to Swords Dance as well lol, and Mienshao destroys Aegislash with Knock Off,
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 136 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 222-263 (80.7 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
ok...
Mienshao is not supposed to be a wallbreaker in OU, of course it will be outclassed at that by these three. It is a fast pivot or revenge killer that is able to cripple Pokemon with Knock Off and maybe do some damage with High Jump Kick every now and then.
Terrakion should not even be compared to Mienshao because the only similarities they have are that they are fighting types with high attack and speed. No one in OU is fearing Choice Band Hi Jump Kick from Mienshao all the time. Mienshao is usually found with a Choice Scarf or Life Orb and is usually going to be there to either U-turn out or Knock Off. It is going to try to get out of there as quickly as possible to regain some health and get some momentum with U-turn. Terrakion is there to tear shit apart and is the best fighting type for the job at doing that. No competition here.
Infernape is probably the only true competition that Mienshao has in OU and they both have some niches that make them stand out from each other. Mienshao has more longevity with Regenerator and Drain Punch, while Infernape will usually die within the first few turns after being sent out. Mienshao also has Knock Off to threaten Ghost types better than Shadow Claw and disable some Pokemon as well as a higher Attack stat to distinguish itself while Infernape is just slightly faster, tieing with the Musketeers, has the movepool to go mixed, has priority and has some utility with Stealth Rock. Mienshao can easily overcome its slightly lower Speed by holding a Choice Scarf, giving it one of the fastest U-turns or Knock Offs in the game, while giving Infernape a Choice Scarf is a waste, as it would most prefer a band, which isn't as great for it this generation. Not saying that Mienshao is better than Nape, but they are used for different purposes most of the time.
Why are you bringing up Conkeldurr as a pivot? That's like comparing Ampharos to Manectric. Conkeldurr isn't even a pivot anyway since it doesn't have U-turn or Volt Switch. It's more of a tank or a wallbreaker than Mienshao.
Those odds are very good in your favor. Beating choice band talonflame at full health after stealth rock most of the time is something mienshao could only dream of. Also, mienshao can't live a +2 mawile sucker punch for shit meaning it can't reliably revenge kill. You are right, mienshao does get SD, but it is basically a forgotten move on mienshao. Why? Because its bulk is terrible and won't be able to set up on very much. Also, aegislash has kings shield which often ruins mienshao. Terrakion runs earthquake which is immune to the effects of kings shield.
The only niche mienshao could have is being a fighting type on a dedicated volt-turn team. Until an OU analysis of it is started up, we can't rank it.
For Pinsir, this set is also viable:
Bye, bye, Rotom
Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Mold Breaker > Aerilate Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)/Adamant (+Atk, -Atk). With Adamnt you can lower the speed if you are outspeed Adamant Excadrill.
EV: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-Return
-Earthquake
-Quick Attack
-X-Scissor/Stone Edge
Return of 133 BP STAB (read: massive damage), Earthquake for the pokes that resist Return, Quick Attack as a 52 BP priority move, and the last move is a choice between X-Scissor for Psychics, some Darks and Rotom-W or Stone Edge to hit Zapdos and Thundurus hard.
Bye, bye, Rotom
Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Mold Breaker > Aerilate Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)/Adamant (+Atk, -Atk). With Adamnt you can lower the speed if you are outspeed Adamant Excadrill.
EV: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
-Return
-Earthquake
-Quick Attack
-X-Scissor/Stone Edge
Return of 133 BP STAB (read: massive damage), Earthquake for the pokes that resist Return, Quick Attack as a 52 BP priority move, and the last move is a choice between X-Scissor for Psychics, some Darks and Rotom-W or Stone Edge to hit Zapdos and Thundurus hard.
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I am nominating Slurpuff for, at best, B- rank and at worst, C- rank.
Why? If you don't know, Swirlix got banned in LC because Belly Drum plus Unburden plus Berry Juice was OP as it gets. After that it doesn't even matter if you resist its Play Rough! Then the stupid thing gets Cotton Guard and Calm Mind and can maintain with its STAB Draining Kiss! Slurpuff can perform the exact same set in OU minus the instant full recovery granted by Berry Juice.
Slurpuff isn't as good as Swirlix because LC is a whole other game, but the set is still somewhat impressive for cotton candy.
Why? If you don't know, Swirlix got banned in LC because Belly Drum plus Unburden plus Berry Juice was OP as it gets. After that it doesn't even matter if you resist its Play Rough! Then the stupid thing gets Cotton Guard and Calm Mind and can maintain with its STAB Draining Kiss! Slurpuff can perform the exact same set in OU minus the instant full recovery granted by Berry Juice.
Slurpuff isn't as good as Swirlix because LC is a whole other game, but the set is still somewhat impressive for cotton candy.
Uh, what? By your own calculation, Terrakion can take an Adamant Choice Band Brave Bird even after Stealth Rock. 93.7% of the time, to be exact.
I think the point was that Talonflame can't just switch in willy nilly and stop Terrakion cold with Brave Bird like it can to Mienshao. That said, Talonflame will not come in at +2 and will not have time to set up a Swords Dance on Terrakion. Best case scenario, Adamant Life Orb, does only 68.7 - 81.4%, while the weakest reasonable SD Talonflame set, Jolly with no boosting item, does 48.2 - 56.9%. All other item and nature combinations fall in between. If there's anything these calcs show, it's that Terrakion is certainly able to take a Brave Bird if it needs to, unlike Mienshao (who is cleanly OHKOed by a 0 Atk Modest Talonflame with no boosting item, lol).
Slurpuff is the most underrated Pokemon I've ever seen in my life. You don't know what boosting move it is going to use, it outspeeds a crapload of the metagame after an Unburden boost and it can become difficult to take down if it boosts too much. My most destructive sets with it have been Calm Mind + 3 attacks and Cotton Guard + Calm Mind with Sitrus or Petaya Berry.
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Cotton Guard
- Flamethrower
Fire types and the blobs wall this, so you should get rid of them before unleashing your candy. Use this during mid or late game once you find something you can switch in to. You can then use the appropriate boosting move depending on who you switch in to and sweep away/keep boosting. The boosts help it to take hits better so the Sitrus Berry is pretty easy to activate. The only ways to really stop Slurpuff are to use priority (hopefully Bullet Punch) or to use Prankster Thunder Wave. Draining Kiss and the Sitrus Berry offer longevity so Slurpuff can keep on going as long as it doesn't run into one of the above issues.
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 60 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Surf
- Flamethrower
This variation of the Calm Mind set offers more coverage, but is less effective against physical attackers without Cotton Guard and makes it more vulnerable to priority. I honestly forget why I set up the EVs this way so don't mind those.
Slurpuff can also run a Timid nature, but I find that a Petaya Berry is necessary with Timid to compensate for the lack of power. It is much harder to get the Petaya Berry boost (it could fit on the double boosting set though), but it is a great reward, as you can heal up with Draining Kiss. Slurpuff for B- please or if not, C+. (If it can get an analysis of course)
EDIT: Fuzznip had already stated that Mienshao and Slurpuff are not getting analyses. Quite a shame.
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Cotton Guard
- Flamethrower
Fire types and the blobs wall this, so you should get rid of them before unleashing your candy. Use this during mid or late game once you find something you can switch in to. You can then use the appropriate boosting move depending on who you switch in to and sweep away/keep boosting. The boosts help it to take hits better so the Sitrus Berry is pretty easy to activate. The only ways to really stop Slurpuff are to use priority (hopefully Bullet Punch) or to use Prankster Thunder Wave. Draining Kiss and the Sitrus Berry offer longevity so Slurpuff can keep on going as long as it doesn't run into one of the above issues.
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 60 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Surf
- Flamethrower
This variation of the Calm Mind set offers more coverage, but is less effective against physical attackers without Cotton Guard and makes it more vulnerable to priority. I honestly forget why I set up the EVs this way so don't mind those.
Slurpuff can also run a Timid nature, but I find that a Petaya Berry is necessary with Timid to compensate for the lack of power. It is much harder to get the Petaya Berry boost (it could fit on the double boosting set though), but it is a great reward, as you can heal up with Draining Kiss. Slurpuff for B- please or if not, C+. (If it can get an analysis of course)
EDIT: Fuzznip had already stated that Mienshao and Slurpuff are not getting analyses. Quite a shame.
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Wait, isn't Magmortar supposed to be blacklisted?
About Slurpuff, I finsd out surprisingly effective. Only for C rank and C- but it's viable in my opinion. Do you remember Belly Drum Aqua jet? Imagine this type of pokemon, changing to a priority move into a pseudo-priority STAB Play Rough sweeping. You see a Fire and a Poison pokemon? +6 Return. You see an Steel? Flamethrower takes care of Scizor (don't recommend), Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Aegislash, Mawile.
Counters: HEATRAN, Empoleon, Diancie, bulky Magnezone, bulky Cobalion, Jirachi, AV Metagross.
Checks: Many Stelel types, a lot of Poison types, powerful attacks that aren't resisted by pokemon with are faster, Taunt user, Paralysis, Sleep, pseudohazers, hazers, Fast Knock Off.
The set is this:
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden (don't forget it) Jolly Nature (yes, it's better to lower special attack than any of the defenses).
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe (tentative)
-Belly Drum
-Play Rough (STAB)
-Return
-Flamethrower.
Magmortar is not viable because it has serious movepool issues, it's not fast enough,and there are a LOT of Fire types to chose on. Use Charizard-Y with isthe better options. You don't want MCharizard-Y for whatever reason? You have Special/Mixed Specially Based MCharizard X, Moltres, MHoundoom, Special Infernape/Mixed with focus on Special Attack, Offensive Heatran, Special Victini (Blue Flare/Searing Shot) Chandelure, Volcarona, and if you are gimmicky, Delphox.
Counters: HEATRAN, Empoleon, Diancie, bulky Magnezone, bulky Cobalion, Jirachi, AV Metagross.
Checks: Many Stelel types, a lot of Poison types, powerful attacks that aren't resisted by pokemon with are faster, Taunt user, Paralysis, Sleep, pseudohazers, hazers, Fast Knock Off.
The set is this:
Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden (don't forget it) Jolly Nature (yes, it's better to lower special attack than any of the defenses).
4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe (tentative)
-Belly Drum
-Play Rough (STAB)
-Return
-Flamethrower.
Magmortar is not viable because it has serious movepool issues, it's not fast enough,and there are a LOT of Fire types to chose on. Use Charizard-Y with isthe better options. You don't want MCharizard-Y for whatever reason? You have Special/Mixed Specially Based MCharizard X, Moltres, MHoundoom, Special Infernape/Mixed with focus on Special Attack, Offensive Heatran, Special Victini (Blue Flare/Searing Shot) Chandelure, Volcarona, and if you are gimmicky, Delphox.
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I was talking about how Magmortar disscussion was banned on the first fourm. Shouldn't it be blacklisted here?
Slurpuff and Meinshao were denied OU Analyses, so they can't be ranked.
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Sorry, but this is OU, and nobody cares about Swirlix. Seriously, try running Belly Drum on Slurpuff and see how far you get. Besides that, now let's get to the actual countering of your argument.
"After that it doesn't even matter if you resist its Play Rough!"
Umm, I'm sorry, but that is completely false.
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 232-273 (67.4 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Remember, this isn't Mega Scizor, who has 40 more points in physical defense. Just regular Scizor, 0 defense investment. If Scizor tried to revenge kill Belly Drum Slurpuff, it would succeed. It could swords dance on the play rough, survive easily, and OHKO with Bullet Punch.
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 488-576 (159.4 - 188.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I think you can now see how Scizor, a common OU threat, completely stops the Belly Drum set. Tell me if there is something I missed, and Slurpuff can win (I promise I won't be an arrogant anti-Slurpuff bigot :). I just don't see a way, though. Another common OU threat that stops this set cold is Heatran.
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 110-130 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 97.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Meanwhile,
252 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 332-392 (108.4 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I understand Flash Cannon isn't a very common move. So,
252 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 166-196 (54.2 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
He can also destroy you with Will O Wisp, as well. Keep in mind that Lava Plume has a 30% chance to burn.
Heatran also stops the CM set, because he resists Draining Kiss and is immune to Flamethrower via Flash Fire.
+6 252+ SpA Slurpuff Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Heatran: 110-130 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 97.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Draining Kiss does less. I don't even know if Slurpuff gets Moonblast, but Draining Kiss didn't even show up on the calculator.
Taking neutral damage from all hazards, slur puff can easily be phazed out by Pokemon like Skarmory, as well. I would put it at C, on par with Smeargle.
EDIT: Denied an OU analysis? Surprising. Guess I can't rank it then.
I was talking about Swirlix...It's ok if Slurpuff isn't mentioned, you don't have to get all in for the kill...
Except that Terrakion is not always going to have 100% damage, and even with just one layer of spikes:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 256-303 (79.2 - 93.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
And I didn't say Mienshao could take a Brave Bird, I was saying Terrakion cannot.
And you lied :x
0- Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mienshao: 192-228 (57.4 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nominating Terrakion up to A rank. It has great high powered stabs that 2HKO most of the meta. It eats knock offs for breakfast lunch and dinner, and has a good speed tier allowing it to check both Charizards and Mega Pinsir. It's also surprising versatile.
Choice band OHKOs or punch huge holes in everything and quick attack lets it pick off weakened faster pokemon. Life orb set maintains most of choice Bands power while being able to switch moves and destroys it's most common counters Landerous, Gliscor and Aeigislash with HP Ice/EQ respectively. Scarf is a good lategame cleaner that can check Charizard X,Mega Gyarados, Mega Tar, Volcarona and broken scale Dragonites after +1 boosts. It can even run an effective SR taunt lead shutting down most leads and easily setting up hazards.
The only thing wrong with it is it poor defensive typing and weakness to priority but it's still a fantastic pokemon in every other way.
Choice band OHKOs or punch huge holes in everything and quick attack lets it pick off weakened faster pokemon. Life orb set maintains most of choice Bands power while being able to switch moves and destroys it's most common counters Landerous, Gliscor and Aeigislash with HP Ice/EQ respectively. Scarf is a good lategame cleaner that can check Charizard X,Mega Gyarados, Mega Tar, Volcarona and broken scale Dragonites after +1 boosts. It can even run an effective SR taunt lead shutting down most leads and easily setting up hazards.
The only thing wrong with it is it poor defensive typing and weakness to priority but it's still a fantastic pokemon in every other way.
Oh, but wait, Slurpuff can run Flamethrower:
24 SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 280-332 (81.3 - 96.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
and Scizor cannot switch in:
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 246-290 (80.3 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So how is it getting to +2?
and Play Rough on Heatran? No thanks:
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 167-197 (43.2 - 51%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 167-197 (43.2 - 51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
and Heatran with Flash Cannon?
4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Slurpuff: 153-181 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Slurpuff doesn't get Moonblast, so no.
Here's a post that I made a while ago about Slurpuff. And what kind of Heatran runs 252 HP / 252 SpA with a Calm Nature? That makes no sense.
The argument wasn't that Terrakion will never die to Brave Bird. It was that it can take a Brave Bird if it needs to, and it certainly can. No, it won't be at 100% health all the time, but that was never the point. The fact that you need Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes just to OHKO most of the time with the strongest Brave Bird Talonflame can muster is pretty telling.
You know what I mean. A reasonable Mienshao set cannot take a Brave Bird from even the most unreasonably weak Talonflame.
The VR reps are probably laughing at these suggestions at this very moment -__-
I really wonder if any of you guys have even tried any of those sets out. I'll drop it though. Slurpuff is a better fit for UU with all this priority running around here and will probably have a blast in RU or NU if it ends up there (which it shouldn't).
Anyway, I'd like to see Dragonite brought up to A or A+ rank.
Dragonite is the most versatile Dragon in the tier and is almost never outclassed at any of its jobs. It can be a Dragon Dance sweeper, a Choice Band wallbreaker/revenge killer, a mixed attacker, a special attacker, a tank/support mon...the list goes on. It beats other Dragon Dancers because of Extremespeed and Multiscale, it beats Black Kyurem as a Choice Band user because of the extra coverage and bulk, it differs from other mixed attacking Dragons because of extra coverage and bulk (Hurricane, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, etc.), it is outclassed by Latios and Hydreigon as special attackers but again boasts different coverage and can use Agility to sweep, and no other Dragon really does what Dragonite does as a tank with T-Wave and Dragon Tail. I'm pressed for time right now so I can't post any sets or calcs, but I will probably update later. Though Stealth Rock is a huge weakness, Dragonite deserves better than A-.
Anyway, I'd like to see Dragonite brought up to A or A+ rank.
Dragonite is the most versatile Dragon in the tier and is almost never outclassed at any of its jobs. It can be a Dragon Dance sweeper, a Choice Band wallbreaker/revenge killer, a mixed attacker, a special attacker, a tank/support mon...the list goes on. It beats other Dragon Dancers because of Extremespeed and Multiscale, it beats Black Kyurem as a Choice Band user because of the extra coverage and bulk, it differs from other mixed attacking Dragons because of extra coverage and bulk (Hurricane, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, etc.), it is outclassed by Latios and Hydreigon as special attackers but again boasts different coverage and can use Agility to sweep, and no other Dragon really does what Dragonite does as a tank with T-Wave and Dragon Tail. I'm pressed for time right now so I can't post any sets or calcs, but I will probably update later. Though Stealth Rock is a huge weakness, Dragonite deserves better than A-.
Jellicent analysis was officially rejected (the reason is that has alost his major niche AND that a spinblocker is not necesarry now; specially one that has issues with Excadrill and lsoes to MBlastoise). What happen to Azelf analysis is that a "troll" put a rejected mark when iut has 2 Quality Checks already.
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