Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Baharoth]

I don't think there's any rule no analysis = not on here, or even vise versa. This should just be a listing of pokemon worth using, not the staple pokemon/threatlist that get analyses.

Well i dont know if there is a rule for that or not, but that argument was used a lot of times already to deny things a viability rating, things were even kicked out of the list after their analysis was rejected like "you know who" for example. So despite what Branflakes said, this "rule" has been used quite frequently up till now.

And tbh i even think that such a rule makes sense since the difference between unviable and D Rank is so small that we can just go and discuss all the nice things again without such a rule. No analysis = no ranking is a nice and clear line to decide what can be discussed and what not so it does have its merits...

 

[jg1198]

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 120-142 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- 80.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 234-278 (68.6 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's far more powerful than Choice Band Azumarill who makes it work, and yes, it is weaker than BD Aqua Jet, so there's that.

You want a fair calc? Ok.

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 447-527 (116.4 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 415-489 (108 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just an arbitrary calc to show the difference in power. Which, when you see it's +6 vs +2 and the difference isn't that much, means a lot. Azumarill loses a significant amount of bulk when using Belly Drum as well. And it's not impossible to set up with Crawdaunt either. STAB Adaptability Life Orb boosted Aqua Jet is scary to anything frail and fast, and Knock Off and Crabhammer are scary to things that are slower. Crawdaunt can use these switches it forces to set up. Granted, it's harder than setting up with Azumarill but it's not like it "can not set up in OU" like you say.

When running sitrus berry, Azumarill only loses 25% of its bulk to belly drum plus whatever damage may take on the turn it sets up, as opposed to crawdaunt, who will likely be taking much more damage setting up, and needs LO to deal comparable damage, causing it to lose another 10% of its health each turn, all things considered, Belly Drum is the smaller price to pay.

 

[Ajwf]

TFL would love to see Quagsire move up a rank or so. Really, Quagsire has a gold niche as one of the few counters to Zard-X so C is a bit low.

 

[alexwolf]

You explicitly said in the last version of this thread that no analysis for a Pokemon meant it wasn't viable. And you just changed your mind. Could you PLEASE be consistent?

I didn't say that. This is what i said:

Once again, something not having an analysis is not a reason to not give it a ranking. However, a Pokemon getting rejected is a perfectly valid reason, so removing both Forretress and Donphan.

Which means that a Pokemon's analyses getting rejected is a good reason not to rank it, but this doesn't mean that it will always happen. Simply put, you can use the fact that its analysis got rejected as an argument to not rank it, but if said Pokemon has a few uses even if it got rejected, then it can stay in the list. At least that's the way i see it.

Also, no talk about if we should rank or not rejected Pokemon, it derails the thread a lot. PM any issue you have to the OU mods.

 

[jg1198]

I'm not trying to argue that Crawdaunt is terrible and not viable, I'm simply trying to argue that he is at home in the C+ category. While he definitely has a niche, it is undeniable that for the vast majority of teams, Azumarill will be the better option for a water type with some priority, and azumarill offers better team synergy to most teams due to its fairy typing and better bulk. Crawdaunt has raw power, but it doesn't have the full package that other pokemon of higher rankings have. In the end, Crawdaunt isn't an OU staple, it's a niche pokemon.

(also btw, nice taste in music lol)

 

[Hclegend]

Are you serious or trolling? With 4 you reach only 105 Speed and with 4+ you reach 120 Speed, but you want to outspeed everything, making 252+ the better option.

lol no.

Did no one see the word "Scarf"?
No I'm serious. With a Scarf, there is no need for Speed investment. Thus you can bulk him up somewhat. It's in his anaylsis. Unless I'm mistaken and a Scarf doesn't multiply your speed by 1.5x making him outspeed every non scarf user besides Deoxys S. I mean sure Speed is important, but Darmy has a niche in his natural bulk. If I wanted a fast but frail sweeper I would choose Volcarona.

 

[Baharoth]

Nothing here should be 100% outclassed, because then it wouldn't have a real niche.

Well thats difficult to say without a fix definition of outclassed. In the strictest sense of the word even Florges isnt outclassed by Sylveon because its faster and has other coverage options. I mean, it doesnt make sense to rank everything that has "some use" that would only inflate the list for nothing. But all these arguments like "its outclassed" and "it has some use" are so vague that the decisions made look extremly inconsistent/inconsequent, thats why i would prefer the strict and simple "no analysis no ranking" rule.

 

[lalala45]

Barbaracle is a very cool mon, with tough claws it hits a lot of things a hell of a lot harder and a lot of would be checks are screwed over by anyone of its coverage moves. Barbaracle takes care of ferrothorn with cross chop, takes care of aegislash with earthquake, night slash covers things like jellicent as well as the ghost/grass duo, poison jab/x-scissor takes care of other bulky grass types and physically defensive slowbro, and finally aerial ace takes care of non-physically defensive mega venusaur (and even does at least 72% min with tough claws boosted aerial ace to physically def [I run adamant]). along with a tough claws boosted razor shell (with rain and life orb its the 2nd most powerful physical water move in the game) and stone edge coverage, barbaracle is a bigger monster to face compared to cloyster.

However, its weaknesses are much more common compared to cloyster. Being weak to eq is never good, while cloyster can at least take a hit and set up more reliably. While its bulk is okay, cloyster's bulk is just substantially a lot better on the physical side. Barbaracle is also a bit more predictable, only varying in playstyle with a switcheroo set, and barbaracle doesn't like losing its item. At least cloyster could run a more defensive spikes set with rapid spin if it really wanted to, deviating from its usual sweeping role.

I think barbaracle should be at least B-/B rank though, because when cloyster smashes I think "eh, whatever", but when barbaracle smashes I think


...MOTHER OF GOD.

 

[jollyflygon]

I think Whimsicott should be moved up to at least like a b plus. It has amazing potential due to its new fairy typing. It has access to moves such as dazzling gleam and moonblast which could make for a very nice special sweeper if trained right. Porygon2 should go in tear A because i had a team of a charzard, florgess, and mega venasuar yet i got swept multiple times with porygon2 due to it's ability download and sp.atk tri attck which can burn, freeze or paralyze. Lastly I am 100 percent sure that laitos and laitias are in the uu tier not ou even though they are being used a lot in the new gen. Frankly I am disappointed with the placment of my boy frosslas because frosslass can be a devastating suicide lead. This was a nice list ,but a few placements need to be fixed.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I believe Vaporeon is too low, for the same reasons I said we should rank Umbreon. Another common stall mon that can be powerful in stall teams. I'd put it on B-.

Kabutops should also be promoted to B- because it's an absolute monster in rain teams, and I think everybody agrees that rain teams are still very viable.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

I think Whimsicott should be moved up to at least like a b plus. It has amazing potential due to its new fairy typing. It has access to moves such as dazzling gleam and moonblast which could make for a very nice special sweeper if trained right. Porygon2 should go in tear A because i had a team of a charzard, florgess, and mega venasuar yet i got swept multiple times with porygon2 due to it's ability download and sp.atk tri attck which can burn, freeze or paralyze. Lastly I am 100 percent sure that laitos and laitias are in the uu tier not ou even though they are being used a lot in the new gen. Frankly I am disappointed with the placment of my boy frosslas because frosslass can be a devastating suicide lead. This was a nice list ,but a few placements need to be fixed.

Hitta who the hail do you think you are?
1. Just because a pokemon is in a lower tier doesn't mean it isn't viable in an upper tier
2. Your talk game is STRONK, you act like you freakin own the place...but in all actuality you need to lurk more, as rn you look like a butt.
3. Neither latios or latias are UU
4. All 5 s-tier mons beat whimsicott, and the majority of a-tier pokemon beat it as well. Whimsicott is also admittedly weak and should be sticking to a support role
5. I can't take you seriously when you've been quote "swept multiple times by porygon2"
6.GOLURK MOAR
7. You obviously don't have much competitive experience, there are a number of threads scattered around here to help and Smogon also has a mentor ship program you might wanna check out

 

[Fiddy]

lmao at people putting medicham in the B rank. Stop using the shit as sets with fake out or bullet punch and only use sub + 3 attacks or use 4 attacks with elemental punches and you will see why it is easily A or even S.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

lmao at people putting medicham in the B rank. Stop using the shit as sets with fake out or bullet punch and only use sub + 3 attacks or use 4 attacks with elemental punches and you will see why it is easily A or even S.

Medicham is easily revenge killed, has average speed, and terrible bulk. It performs 1 role, and is in essence a glass cannon, not being able to take the STABs of many common threats that outspeed him. Yes, he is powerful, but he relies on two inaccurate STABs in ZHeadbutt and HJK, in which a miss on one more than the other will most likely cost you the poke if you don't predict well or if luck isn't on your side

 

[Hidious]

lmao at people putting medicham in the B rank. Stop using the shit as sets with fake out or bullet punch and only use sub + 3 attacks or use 4 attacks with elemental punches and you will see why it is easily A or even S.

Medicham was put in B+ because it has a severe case of 4MSS, is rather easily revenge killed, and is still threatened by aegislash despite fire punch. It was not put in B because a bunch of noobs are using bad sets on it. That's a very shitty reason to elevate it to A rank.

 

[Karxrida]

I didn't say that. This is what i said:
Which means that a Pokemon's analyses getting rejected is a good reason not to rank it, but this doesn't mean that it will always happen. Simply put, you can use the fact that its analysis got rejected as an argument to not rank it, but if said Pokemon has a few uses even if it got rejected, then it can stay in the list. At least that's the way i see it.

Done, thx!

Also, no talk about if we should rank or not rejected Pokemon, it derails the thread a lot. PM any issue you have to the OU mods.

I somehow misread "didn't have an analysis" as "was rejected". I was stupid and I'm sorry.
This is what happens when I don't take my meds for 3 weeks.

 

[escarlata]

Azumarill in no way gives Crawdaunt any competition. Both are water yes, but the similarity stops there. Crawdaunt is a wallbreaker, and one of the best at that, which warrants him a B- at least. Saying Crawdaunt's wallbreaking power is a niche is like saying MegaZard Y is a niche. Crawdaunt is one of the few Pokemon that is guaranteed to royally fck something up everytime it comes in, and you can't even try to outplay it by making GOOD switches because it 2HKOs even Landorus-T with Knock Off, which Azumarill doesn't stand a hell's chance in doing with Play Rough. Sure Azumarill is bulkier and has a better typing, but it certainly does not put as much pressure on slower teams compared to Crawdaunt.

Need a water type that can fit in most teams with no problem? Pick Azumaril. But what if you need a water type that can wreck Ferrothorn, Aegislash (OHKO after rocks even at -2 Att), Skarmory, Venusaur? Crawdaunt is obviously the better choice here in those cases. In fact, I can't think of something that can break all of them better than Crawdaunt other than Ch arizard Y.

In that regard, Crawdaunt does play a very important part as a wallbreaker. I have more relevant calc on the Crawdaunt thread, so feel free to find something that can break all those defensive threats in a single slot, other than Crawdaunt.

So to sum up, Crawdaunt for B-, or even B

P.S. Even with Azumarill's good bulk, it still gets 2HKOed by CB Crabhammer, just throwing this out there.

On a side note, I wrote something on page 8 of this thread that has yet been reponded to, just saying.

 

[Srn]

Aight, why is our boy chesnaught way down in B-? I'd say bump 'im right back up to B+

This guy checks so many dangerous things in the meta right now. He easily checks Bisharp, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, Aegislash, Crawdaunt, Keldeo (with 40 evs in sp. def can take two specs hydro pump), Lando-T, excadrill, hippowdon, ferrothorn, scizor (can taunt SD+Roost), conkeldurr, and it can even safely come in on mega venusaur and stack spikes. He has plenty of options making him a bit versatile; he can lay down hazards and spike stack, Roar to phaze and stop about half of the things it checks from setting up, and Taunt to handle the other half even better. Leech Seed and Spiky Shield in conjunction can easily sap away a solid quarter of the opponent's health away, a third if they use a contact move on your spiky shield. He even has access to synthesis, and though synthesis is hurt by sand Chesnaught beats the two sand streamers anyway. Hammer Arm provides a reliable stab to smack Chansey and Bisharp, while even Wood Hammer can be used if you want to target Azumarill.

His great typing lets him resist the popular EdgeQuake combo, which lets you immediately check practically any lando-t. Chesnaught is also one of the few pokemon that can take on DeoSharpSlash cores with relative ease, doing whatever it wants against non Sub-Toxic aegislash and Hammer Arming Bisharp for the easy KO, while teammates can handle hazards and weaknesses for him.

Unfortunately, while he does have some great perks, he suffers from a lot of weaknesses, and needs some team support to cover them. Psychic, flying, poison (only sludge wave tho, not bomb), Ice, Fire, and Fairy is quite a set of weaknesses that needs to be covered.
However, I think that when these weaknesses are covered by teammates his performance far exceeds some other B+ pokemon.
Chesnaught for B+

Also, since we're talking about crawdaunt and azumarill:

They're both very similar and very different as well.
Azumarill can be a wallbreaker too, the CB sets safe switch-ins are basically limited to ferrothorn IF it has knock off and Aegislash IF it doesn't. Skarmory and defensive Mega Scizor can somewhat hope to take it on too, but really, that's about it. It has better bulk, better typing, and is simply a more independent pokemon that pulls more weight than crawdaunt does.

However, Crawdaunt is actually stronger than azumarill (pretty sure). IT has access to good boosting moves, the strongest knock off in the game (unless yveltal's is stronger? not sure), reliable priority, and a few options to toy around with, like superpower or even aerial ace to beat fighting type switch-ins, especially chesnaught.

Basically, Crawdaunt is strictly a wallbreaker, and needs more support coming in and getting free turns to set up if it chooses too. It performs the role of a wallbreaker a little better than azumarill does. Azumarill is still a super threatening wallbreaker with better STABs, better typing, and better bulk overall. Azumarill isn't limited to wallbreaking either, the AV set is definitely catching some popularity as a reliable switch-in to keldeo, and there's always the sap sipper sp. def set to check both zards. Crawdaunt is indeed better strictly for wallbreaking, but it's not a pokemon you can fit on practically any team, like azumarill is.
But its power is insane, its STABs are reliable, its priority is amazing, it has access to two great boosting moves (but don't use dd guys :I ), and it can even provide utility with knock off. Just in testament to his raw power, I'd say Crawdaunt is a solid B.

And while I'm here, I'll just address mega medicham again. But I actually won't I took way too long.
Basically, he can't switch into anything, he's way too frail. He has 4MSS, loses to certain threats depending on coverage. His STABs aren't the greatest, he doesn't have great resistances, his speed is subpar, and his priority sucks. His strength is his only redeeming factor, and you're wasting a mega over this too. His frailty puts a general pressure on your team to bring him in safely, and running mega medicham is just generally not worth it.
He should stay wherever he is, and not rise anywhere near A-

 

[jacyk]

I would like to nominate Mega Heracross be moved up to B+ rank.

As a wallbreaker, it faces stiff competition from the likes of Mega Medicham and a lot of comparisons can (and have) be (been) made. Both are fighting types with sky high attack, and both take up a mega slot. Medicham has been given the limelight of B+ due to his superior speed and higher attack stat. Mega Heracross however has the more interesting advantage of a varied movepool which it can make excellent use of and allows him to fill a very particular wallbreaking niche that allows him to hit a huge portion of the metagame super effectively- and with and overwhelming majority, almost anything he can hit super effectively he can kill.

If you don't believe that,

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 310-370 (101.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 400-480 (101.5 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(yes, i know deoxys-d doesn't run max defense. nobody bring that up. it is beyond irrelevent, that just means it dies harder.)

His unique ability to beat bulky Psychics give him an advantage over Medicham. However, Medicham has the arguably more useful ability to beat Gliscor and Landorus-Therian, two walls Heracross struggles with. The issue of Mega Venusaur may be brought up, and while Mega Medicham can kill Venusaur in a single hit,

252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 185-225 (50.8 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Uninvested in defense takes about 61.8 - 74.1%. Heracross can beat Venusaur as well, so long as sleep clause is active. Mega Heracross also has the enormously useful ability to defeat Aegislash, which is a common Pokemon that Medicham absolutely hates. Optionally, Heracross can opt to run Bullet Seed, which allows him to beat physically defensive Rotom-W.

The most redeeming feature of Mega Heracross and the absolute reason to use him, not just only over Mega Medicham but at all, is his phenomenal bulk. He has fantastic 80/115/105 defenses, and with such disappointing speed he can afford to invest in HP. I run 236 HP, 252 attack, and 20 speed. Investing in HP makes him slower than a handful of obscure and irrelevant Pokemon, the most interesting of which is Modest 0 speed Mega Venusaur, who, as we've established, isn't a threat to Mega Heracross.

His bulk is truly phenomenal, and to prove it:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 304-359 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Draco Meteor does less. On the other hand, Mega Medicham is outsped and OHKOed.

His bulk brings about much potential to tank a hit, then kill off a threat. With Rock Blast, he can even bypass Kyurem-B's substitutes and kill it in a single turn while Kyurem can't kill it with anything, unless it's something odd like HP Flying.

In conclusion, Mega Heracross has very powerful and an unnoticed presence by the majority of battlers. With paralysis support, he can sweep entire teams, and his unique ability to survive even powerful super effective attacks which allows him to beat many Pokemon 1v1 make him absolutely deserving of B+.

I would be happy to see him in A, personally, but I realize his Achilles heels in Flying attacks and susceptibility to status do hold him back from that.

show Pinocchio Popeye some love, guys!

 

[the-bumper-car]

Eh, I'd put Crawdaunt at a B- or lower. Yes, he's a better wallbreaker than Azumarill, but there are far better wallbreakers in OU right now than both of them - KyuB, for example. Crawdaunt's bigger problem is that OU teams have tools ready to deal with Water type pokes thanks to Azu and Rotom-W and Keldeo being very good in the meta, and he gets hit by those tools even harder. (Same argument goes for Fire-types not named Charizard, Talonflame, or Heatran)

 

[Hclegend]

Even with Sticky Web support Darmy is slow. It's bulk is eh at best. I think I'll stop posting here because I don't know what I'm on about. :)

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

About rejected analysis.

Take not that even three months after PokeBank was released (or sort of, now it's released for a while) there are threads and threads of a lot of pokemon (some of them being mayor threats) that are being rejected mainly for these reason. Because if we are going to go with noiches in the OU metagame, we have a list of 200 pokemon with some threats having in some cases 10 sets that all of them has uses.

 

[escarlata]

Eh, I'd put Crawdaunt at a B- or lower. Yes, he's a better wallbreaker than Azumarill, but there are far better wallbreakers in OU right now than both of them - KyuB, for example. Crawdaunt's bigger problem is that OU teams have tools ready to deal with Water type pokes thanks to Azu and Rotom-W and Keldeo being very good in the meta, and he gets hit by those tools even harder. (Same argument goes for Fire-types not named Charizard, Talonflame, or Heatran)

The difference between Crawdaunt and classic wallbreakers is that if you give it the chance to get in, something on your team WILL lose half its health regardless of how well you switch, something similar to Charizard Y. It completely differs from Kyurem who you still need to connect a SE hit in order to break down walls. As a matter of fact, Crawdaunt can even 2HKO Mandibuzz, now tell me another Pokemon that can do that with a neutral attack. Just saying, CB Knock Off hits harder than CB Outrage from 252+ Dragonite and Crabhammer destroys everything that possibly resist it. When ever I see a Crawdaunt on the opponent team, I always hesitate to bring in anything slower, because Crawdaunt is guaranteed a 50% off anything so long as it is given a switch in opportunity. The only other Pokemon that is not Ubers that can do that is Charizard Y.

Crawdaunt's neutral Knock Off hits way harder than any of Kyurem-B's super effective moves, now let that sink in.

 

[procrastinat]

Lucario is outclassed as an independent sweeper, in that there are better are better pokemon to build your team around.

However, Lucario does function as very well as a partner for arguably the most dangerous sweeper in the tier at the moment, Mega-Pinsir, as Lucario can break Pinsir's
best checks and counters, including Skarmory, Rotom-W, and Talonflame due to it's Fighting STAB and +2 priority extremespeed.

Also, while Lucario lacks the speed and power of other sweepers, it does not have such glaring weaknesses to hazards of the two most popular SDers, Pinsir and Talonflame. This makes it easier to fit into a team, as it does not require Defog/Spin support.

Finally, Lucario has the luxury of choosing what beats it, something other sweepers and their shallow movepools do not allow. Pinsir is always hard-walled by Skarm, while Talonflame has problems getting past rock types. Any Dragon struggles against either fairies or steels, even Zard-X struggles to get past the bulkier pokemon in the tier, like Azumarill or Tar w/o earthquake. Lucario can run Ice punch to get past Lando-T and gliscor, crunch to get Bulky Psychics and ghosts, bullet punch to get otherwise faster threats that resist Extremespeed, like Terrakion and Gengar or the (very) rare scarftar. It can even use earthquake to get Aegislash.

There are pokemon that are easier to set up, have stronger attacks, faster, and generally considered better overall, but Lucario has unique abilities as a sweeper that should not be ignored.

Lucario for B+.

 

[dinotrek27]

Just wondering is a Life Orb Physically Based Kyu-B with Outrage, Fusion Bolt, Ice Beam/Freeze Shock and Earth Power Viable as a mixed wallbreaker?

 

[Baharoth]

You should run Iron Head over Earth Power but that aside, yes its very viable as it is one of the best wallbreakers in the game.