Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Prosecutor Godot]

Alright, I'm gonna bring something up that's been bothering me.

Get this thing out of B-

Galvantula is a bit like Donphan in the sense that it's a pretty terrible Pokemon with traits that somehow seem attractive to new or bad players. Sticky Web is not enough to prevent Galvantula from sucking. It's not even easy to set up and maintain Sticky Web long enough. Galvantula is super frail, so it can't come in on anything directly, and it's much too weak to force out anything that isn't weak to Electric or Bug. Sticky Web isn't even worth setting up much of the time because the metagame is so bulky and infested with priority. Sticky Web didn't save Shuckle from being unranked, or Smeargle from making it above C-, so why should it save Galvantula?

I can agree with this. The only time I ever see Galvantula is OU is when I make a new alt; I don't ever see any competent players using Galvantula (apologize to anyone who uses Galva and does feel competent, I'm not saying there aren't people out there, I'm just saying I don't see many.) It has had zero usage in SPL, which is something you can't even say about Donphan. Everyone runs a way to get rid of hazards, which means a good Sticky Web user needs to be able to get it up multiple times in a battle, not get it up and then die while your opponent is free to Defog or Spin it away like Galvantula's niche is. Best Sticky Web user? Sure, it's better than pokemon like Smeargle and Shuckle, it's not a widely distributed move. I don't think being the best at something that no good pokemon do should warrant a high ranking for a mediocre pokemon with a single niche that it's not even very good at.

 

[the-bumper-car]

I agree with Galvantula getting booted down too. Getting rid of Sticky Web is practically trivial in the current OU environment, and the teams that don't get rid of it easily aren't especially worried about it either.

There's other rock-weak stuff, you know. Like Talonflame. Or Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Thundurus, Dragonite, Kyu-B, Volcarona...

Yeah you can't pivot in a mega but you can still pivot in other scary stuff like Landrous-I, Terrakion, Garchomp, Bisharp, Azumarill, Aegislash, Kyu-B, Keldeo...

I mean really you're making it sound like mega pinsir and charizard should be on absolutely every team. Ridiculous.

And none of the pokemon you mentioned are anywhere near the level of offensive prowess of M-Pinsir and M-Zard. I don't think they should be on every team, but I seriously question the effectivity of a non-Trick Room offensive team that isn't running either of them. (Maybe if you're running rain, I guess?)

And that's the crux of the problem here - the teams that really want a good spinner or pivot are offensive teams, and they want to be running the best win condition possible.

 

[sonnytapman]

I agree with Galvantula getting booted down too. Getting rid of Sticky Web is practically trivial in the current OU environment, and the teams that don't get rid of it easily aren't especially worried about it either.



And none of the pokemon you mentioned are anywhere near the level of offensive prowess of M-Pinsir and M-Zard. I don't think they should be on every team, but I seriously question the effectivity of a non-Trick Room offensive team that isn't running either of them. (Maybe if you're running rain, I guess?)

And that's the crux of the problem here - the teams that really want a good spinner or pivot are offensive teams, and they want to be running the best win condition possible.

Are you saying that the offensive spinners, like MBlastoise and Excadrill,are the only useful ones? I might be missing the point here.
EDIT: I'll agree that Gavantula should be booted down. Sticky web is not that useful, and Gavantula goes down too quickly for reapplication. It's got a unique, but not good, typing. That's all I see going for it.

 

[Air]

Time to go off-topic!

Chandelure C+ -----> B-/B

Chandelure received buffs and de-buffs this generation, such as the prominence of knock off and ghost type being better offencivley. Chandelure sets itself apart from the other offencive ghost type pokemon in having a massive 145 base special attack, access to two high-powered STAB moves, and wide movepool. Chandelure can set up on many pokemon in the current Metagame, such as CharY, Mawile, Scizor, And Ferrothorn. Thanks to its massive 145 Special attack Chandelure can often force many pokemon out, allowing it to run an effective sub-split strategy. Chandelure also has key immunities in Fire, Normal and Fighting, Allowing it to switch in often and check many pokemon. Chandelure also has a wide movepool mainly consisting of Shadow Ball, Fire Blast, Energy Ball, Psychic and Trick. Overall, I belive chandelure should be moved up in ranking as it is a somewhat versatile, extremely hard-hitting threat.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Are you saying that the offensive spinners, like MBlastoise and Excadrill,are the only useful ones? I might be missing the point here.
EDIT: I'll agree that Gavantula should be booted down. Sticky web is not that useful, and Gavantula goes down too quickly for reapplication. It's got a unique, but not good, typing. That's all I see going for it.

No, my point is that offensive teams running M-Pinsir or M-Zard are the only ones that place a premium on getting rid of SR, and they'd rather run Excadrill or a Defogger since M-Stoise is not compatible. (Also, defensive spinners are kinda terrible right now in the OU meta - why not run a defogger instead?)

 

[sonnytapman]

No, my point is that offensive teams running M-Pinsir or M-Zard are the only ones that place a premium on getting rid of SR, and they'd rather run Excadrill or a Defogger since M-Stoise is not compatible. (Also, defensive spinners are kinda terrible right now in the OU meta - why not run a defogger instead?)

Oh, so that's why skarmory's been a popular defoger as of late. Because defensive spinners suck. Also the reason I've seen the occasional Magic Bounce Xatu and Mega Absol.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

but I seriously question the effectivity of a non-Trick Room offensive team that isn't running either of them. (Maybe if you're running rain, I guess?)

Uh, there's all the A+ megas you know. Honestly I think Mega Gyarados is a much better win condition than Pinsir (and Mega Tyranitar, possibly), but I don't feel like arguing for it to get raised to S. Also Y-zard's not that much of a sweeper. I'm being 100% serious when I'm saying you can't stick Pinsir or 'zard onto any team, or even close to any team, without prior planning, and expect success. Aegislash and Thundurus? Absolutely. Those two? Really, no. You're seriously overstating how good they are. Yeah, they're good, but unlike Aegislash and Thundurus I don't think they're on the level of "unless you're using a weather/Baton Pass team you're dumb if you're not running these" good.

Also it's not like Blastoise or Manectric can only spin/pivot, they can both attack stuff you know, and can check a lot of stuff (Mega Man checks like half of S/A+ ranks.) Personally I don't use them, but I just wanted to say that "it takes up a mega slot" shouldn't be used as an argument for ranking mega forms. Yeah it's a restriction on what teams they can be used on but it doesn't really change how they can perform in the meta, strictly going by the definition of the rankings. Yeah it can't pivot in Pinsir but you can still bring in Specs Keldeo.

 

[Karxrida]

Uh, there's all the A+ megas you know. Honestly I think Mega Gyarados is a much better win condition than Pinsir (and Mega Tyranitar, possibly), but I don't feel like arguing for it to get raised to S. Also Y-zard's not that much of a sweeper. I'm being 100% serious when I'm saying you can't stick Pinsir or 'zard onto any team, or even close to any team, without prior planning, and expect success. Aegislash and Thundurus? Absolutely. Those two? Really, no. You're seriously overstating how good they are. Yeah, they're good, but unlike Aegislash and Thundurus I don't think they're on the level of "unless you're using a weather/Baton Pass team you're dumb if you're not running these" good.

Also it's not like Blastoise or Manectric can only spin/pivot, they can both attack stuff you know, and can check a lot of stuff (Mega Man checks like half of S/A+ ranks.) Personally I don't use them, but I just wanted to say that "it takes up a mega slot" shouldn't be used as an argument for ranking mega forms. Yeah it's a restriction on what teams they can be used on but it doesn't really change how they can perform in the meta, strictly going by the definition of the rankings. Yeah it can't pivot in Pinsir but you can still bring in Specs Keldeo.

"It takes up a mega slot" should only be used as an argument when the Mega in question receives serious competition from something else for its job (Mega Ampharous as a Bulky Pivot vs. Rotom-W, Mega Garchomp as a Mixed Wallbreaker vs. Kyurem-B, Mega Aggron as a Tank vs. Anything Tanky) or the job is too mundane to use a Mega slot for (Mega Blastoise as a spinner).

 

[NotSoClutch]

Why is every hazard setter other than Deoxys D considered bad? Galvantula is very useful. Yes priority and hazard removal are very common in this meta game, but the ability to cripple major threats like garchomp, terrakion, keldeo, kyurem etc with one move is huge. Grounded scarfers lose the scarf boost so things like scarf chandelure become much less effective as revenge killers. Sweepers like Mega pinsir also becomes significantly less threatening with a lowered speed stat. I think the usefulness of sticky web coupled with galvantula's surprising utility as a revenge killer with a reasonably accurate thunder are enough to justify the B- rating. B- doesn't indicate a dominate force in the game. It merely points to a Pokemon that, given support, is able to perform a role effectively in OU and this describes galvantula perfectly.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Uh, there's all the A+ megas you know. Honestly I think Mega Gyarados is a much better win condition than Pinsir (and Mega Tyranitar, possibly), but I don't feel like arguing for it to get raised to S. Also Y-zard's not that much of a sweeper. I'm being 100% serious when I'm saying you can't stick Pinsir or 'zard onto any team, or even close to any team, without prior planning, and expect success. Aegislash and Thundurus? Absolutely. Those two? Really, no. You're seriously overstating how good they are. Yeah, they're good, but unlike Aegislash and Thundurus I don't think they're on the level of "unless you're using a weather/Baton Pass team you're dumb if you're not running these" good.

Also it's not like Blastoise or Manectric can only spin/pivot, they can both attack stuff you know, and can check a lot of stuff (Mega Man checks like half of S/A+ ranks.) Personally I don't use them, but I just wanted to say that "it takes up a mega slot" shouldn't be used as an argument for ranking mega forms. Yeah it's a restriction on what teams they can be used on but it doesn't really change how they can perform in the meta, strictly going by the definition of the rankings. Yeah it can't pivot in Pinsir but you can still bring in Specs Keldeo.

Yeah, M-Gyarados is a good alternative, but you still can't put him on the same team as M-stoise or M-Manectric. Yes, Pinsir and Zard can't be just stuck on a team and expect to succeed, you're supposed to build teams around them, but the pay-off is much higher IMO than building around M-stoise or M-Man. Karxrida made a good point above - the competition between the lesser-used Mega-forms and their non-mega alternatives are really close. Yes, M-stoise and M-man can attack too, but then so do the alternatives to them. Specs Keldeo is something I'd give you, but then I did mention that Rain Teams are one of the possible exceptions that don't really appreciate the offensive Megas (except maybe M-Gyara), so you can bring M-Man there.

Why is every hazard setter other than Deoxys D considered bad? Galvantula is very useful. Yes priority and hazard removal are very common in this meta game, but the ability to cripple major threats like garchomp, terrakion, keldeo, kyurem etc with one move is huge. Grounded scarfers lose the scarf boost so things like scarf chandelure become much less effective as revenge killers. Sweepers like Mega pinsir also becomes significantly less threatening with a lowered speed stat. I think the usefulness of sticky web coupled with galvantula's surprising utility as a revenge killer with a reasonably accurate thunder are enough to justify the B- rating. B- doesn't indicate a dominate force in the game. It merely points to a Pokemon that, given support, is able to perform a role effectively in OU and this describes galvantula perfectly.

Partly because hazard setters in XYOU are really pressured right now - they need to be able to be useful outside of a lead position, they need to be not predictable, and they need to be tough enough to survive and come in at later rounds to re-set the hazards that were spinned/defogged away.

Galvantula is just too squishy and too weak offensively to be able to do anything outside of setting Sticky Web turn 1, and Sticky Web does nothing to both the top S-rank pokes (M-Zard, M-Pinsir, Thundurus) and can't switch in after turn 1 either. Its niche is, again, very specific, but it is not critical to OU.

 

[Hclegend]

Time to go off-topic!

Chandelure C+ -----> B-/B

Chandelure received buffs and de-buffs this generation, such as the prominence of knock off and ghost type being better offencivley. Chandelure sets itself apart from the other offencive ghost type pokemon in having a massive 145 base special attack, access to two high-powered STAB moves, and wide movepool. Chandelure can set up on many pokemon in the current Metagame, such as CharY, Mawile, Scizor, And Ferrothorn. Thanks to its massive 145 Special attack Chandelure can often force many pokemon out, allowing it to run an effective sub-split strategy. Chandelure also has key immunities in Fire, Normal and Fighting, Allowing it to switch in often and check many pokemon. Chandelure also has a wide movepool mainly consisting of Shadow Ball, Fire Blast, Energy Ball, Psychic and Trick. Overall, I belive chandelure should be moved up in ranking as it is a somewhat versatile, extremely hard-hitting threat.

60/90/90 defences are..... Meh, it's speed (80) pretty much REQUIRES a Scarf in order not to get outsped and OHKOd, it's "Fire Immunity" only works with Flash Fire (Infiltrator can get rid of annoying Sub sets, and Flame Body can leave Knock Off users reeling). And while 145 SpecAtt is amazing for any pokemon, it's just too frail to survive more than one hit (SubSplit may work, but Scarfed Revenge Killer works better with its distbrution). It's still great, but these very exploitable weaknesses are what makes it C+. I'd love to see him move up a rank or two, but the fact is there are better Fire types in the tier and Chandy finds itself outclassed. Same problem I have with Darmanitan and Infernape, great Pokemon in their own right, but there's just so many more better than them.

Edit: However, being able to block WoW and get a power boost at the same time is an interesting niche, as well as being able to run more than one set (Choice Scarf Overheat, Life Orb attacker.SubSplitter, SubBreaker with Infiltrator). And let's not forget he can run WoW himself, making up for his meh defences. The type coverage is great (Psychic, Grass, Ghost, Ground, Rock, Steel, Fighting, Poison, and Bug) hitting a good chunk of the OU meta for SE damage (and all of it for neutral). Chandlelure isn't the best Fire Type, but if you want something different, he's the one to go for.

TL;DR Despite his problems, he still hits pretty damn hard. B-/B at best.

Edit2: Sticky Web support from Galvantula can help too, (Seriously, Galvantula is good,decent, usable, he actually has some offensive presence. 90% accurate Thunders are nothing to laugh at. Life Orb Galvy can hit hard for a Hazard Setter)

 

[dumbguyfin]

Why is Espeon S-rank in victory road? April fools or mistake?

EDIT: Nothing anymore, should have taken a look at the previous page.

 

[Hclegend]

Why is Espeon S-rank in victory road? April fools or mistake?

The former.
If you look back a bit I asked the same thing :P
Also there was a screencap of why Espeon is S rank back there too :)

 

[sonnytapman]

I understand that Digersby has the most powerful earthquake, but what justifies putting him in B rank?

 

[Durant]

I understand that Digersby has the most powerful earthquake, but what justifies putting him in B rank?

Rampardos has the strongest head smash in the game yet he is pretty awful in OU. Just because something has a strong attack doesn't mean it's suddenly the best pokemon ever.

 

[sonnytapman]

Rampardos has the strongest head smash in the game yet he is pretty awful in OU. Just because something has a strong attack doesn't mean it's suddenly the best pokemon ever.

Not my question. What else, besides Earthquake, makes Digersby so desierable?

 

[VanGru]

I understand that Digersby has the most powerful earthquake, but what justifies putting him in B rank?

Very versatile, it can set up both speed and attack by two stages. It is an amazing wallbreaker with two fantastic STAB attacks, it's movepool isn't lacking. He can fullfil multiple roles. For example a cb set can wallbreak and clean up late-game with a really strong quick attack. A scarf set is an excellent revenge killer and strong scout.
However he isn't the fastest and toughest pokemon out there, so IMO this description screams b-rank.

 

[Durant]

Seems no one has mentioned Xatu yet:

First of all while Xatu fights for a team spot with Espeon as a magic bouncer, Xatu does have some advantages over Espeon that make it worth the team spot. First of all while Espeon does have much better offensive stats it is outclassed by Alakazam, the Lati twins and mega Gardevoir as a pure special psychic type attacker. Support wise Xatu has much more of a support movepool than Espeon. The only thing Espeon gets is the ability to baton pass cosmic power boosts while Xatu has tailwind, haze, sunny day and rain dance, can paralyze things with thunder wave, and can u-turn out of there to get a safe switch into something. Xatu also has roost to let it stay around for longer while Espeon only has the unreliable morning sun to recover hp ( Espeon baits out Tyranitar which makes morning sun worse ). these are some of reasons i think Xatu deserves B or B- rank. B rank description also fits it's role nicely:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

 

[sonnytapman]

Seems no one has mentioned Xatu yet:

First of all while Xatu fights for a team spot with Espeon as a magic bouncer, Xatu does have some advantages over Espeon that make it worth the team spot. First of all while Espeon does have much better offensive stats it is outclassed by Alakazam, the Lati twins and mega Gardevoir as a pure special psychic type attacker. Support wise Xatu has much more of a support movepool than Espeon. The only thing Espeon gets is the ability to baton pass cosmic power boosts while Xatu has tailwind, haze, sunny day and rain dance, can paralyze things with thunder wave, and can u-turn out of there to get a safe switch into something. Xatu also has roost to let it stay around for longer while Espeon only has the unreliable morning sun to recover hp ( Espeon baits out Tyranitar which makes morning sun worse ). these are some of reasons i think Xatu deserves B or B- rank. B rank description also fits it's role nicely:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

The thing is, Xatu is much easier to pursuit trap than Espeon. My personal use for Baton Pass was so Espeon could switch without pursuit to worry about. Oh, Batonpassing Calm Mind is a good option too. Xatu and Espeon are both decent dual screeners as well.

 

[Durant]

The thing is, Xatu is much easier to pursuit trap than espeon. My personal use for Baton Pass was so Espeon could switch without pursuit to worry about. Oh, Batonpassing Calm Mind is a good option to. Xatu and Espeon are both decent dual screeners as well.

Xatu can always u-turn out or use baton pass if it's gonna get pursuit trapped as the most common pursuit users are quite slow ( Scizor, Tyranitar ). Good point about the baton passing and dual screen's though.

 

[Pikachuu]

Last time I checked, Mega Venusaur was S, why did it drop?

 

[Ajwf]

Xatu should go C in my opinion... The only teams I feel you could justify seeing it on are dedicated voltturn teams, and even then Xatu has to make use of a support movepool over actually doing something productive. Now, I'm almost certain Magic Bounce is illegal in conjunction with Defog so it doesn't have that use either... I can't think of anything it counters other than scarf locked pokemon or fight pokemon, but it certainly doesn't answer much in the metagame... Conkeldurr maybe? Even then, you risk ice punch crushing you. It gets Breloom but off the top of my head, that's all I can think of. C might be too high... C-?

And baton pass is illegal with Magic Bounce for reference. Otherwise, Xatu would probably be used.

Edit: Mega Venu dropped because people think that the meta is more prepared for it... Just let them be apart of their own fallacy. It didn't even beat Lucario 100% of the time but they claim it was his 'main niche' and that pinsir-mega/CharizardXY now make it less viable

 

[Durant]

Xatu should go C in my opinion... The only teams I feel you could justify seeing it on are dedicated voltturn teams, and even then Xatu has to make use of a support movepool over actually doing something productive. Now, I'm almost certain Magic Bounce is illegal in conjunction with Defog so it doesn't have that use either... I can't think of anything it counters other than scarf locked pokemon or fight pokemon, but it certainly doesn't answer much in the metagame... Conkeldurr maybe? Even then, you risk ice punch crushing you. It gets Breloom but off the top of my head, that's all I can think of. C might be too high... C-?

And baton pass is illegal with Magic Bounce for reference. Otherwise, Xatu would probably be used.

Yeah i think B or B- might be a bit to high but it certainly doesn't deserve to be unranked so somewhere around C would fit it nicely.

 

[sonnytapman]

And baton pass is illegal with Magic Bounce for reference. Otherwise, Xatu would probably be used.

Edit: Mega Venu dropped because people think that the meta is more prepared for it... Just let them be apart of their own fallacy. It didn't even beat Lucario 100% of the time but they claim it was his 'main niche' and that pinsir-mega/CharizardXY now make it less viable

I meant calm mind baton pass for Espeon, not Xatu.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Partly because hazard setters in XYOU are really pressured right now - they need to be able to be useful outside of a lead position, they need to be not predictable, and they need to be tough enough to survive and come in at later rounds to re-set the hazards that were spinned/defogged away.

Galvantula is just too squishy and too weak offensively to be able to do anything outside of setting Sticky Web turn 1, and Sticky Web does nothing to both the top S-rank pokes (M-Zard, M-Pinsir, Thundurus) and can't switch in after turn 1 either. Its niche is, again, very specific, but it is not critical to OU.

Mega Pinsir is affected by the sticky web unless it is switching in mega evolved and the opposite can be said about Mega Charizard Y Mega Charizard X. One nice thing about galvantula is that it is very difficult to pin down due to volt switch and a 108 speed. This allows Galvantula to easily volt switch out of many undesirable match-ups. And Galvantula has the uncanny ability to beat many defoggers 1 on 1 if defog is used on the opponents first turn after switching in.

252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 398-471 (93.8 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 289-343 (95.6 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 510-603 (152.6 - 180.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 191-226 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Zapdos: 208-246 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 190-226 (52.1 - 62%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The offensive pressure that Galvantula provides scares out many of these common defoggers most used sets. If your opponent defogs with any of these defoggers while Galvantula is on the field, Galvantula can KO and setup hazards later. Only Latios, Mega scizor, and Latias are able to KO Galvantula if they go on the offensive instead of defogging, however if this happens, galvantula has kept sticky web on the field and you can then switch to the appropriate counter to the current defogger.