How is a cap more invasive than any other solution we've come up with so far?
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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Ok, so this is what I'm getting from the responses to the thread: (1) If the pokemon that are a part of full chains aren't broken in and of themselves, then we shouldn't ban them. (2) If the abilities they use aren't inherently broken, then we shouldn't ban those either. (3) Since the move Baton Pass isn't broken and has legitimate use outside of BP chains, we shouldn't ban it as well. (4) A ridiculously complex ban doesn't seem to be favored either, and people don't seem want to get behind limiting the number of BP-ers on a team, since that would kill the BP team as a whole. All of these have legitimate arguments, but this leads me to the whole point of this post.
This is kind of confusing me now since we can't really do anything if these all stand as true. If we want something to be done about BP, we either have to (1) Sacrifice some pokemon's niches (Speed Boost+BP and the like), (2) Sacrifice a move (Outright Ban BP), which may as a result cause #1, or (3) settle on a complex ban of some sort that either (3a) kills some pokemon use/combination of abilities (Speed Boost+BP+Magic Bounce or something like that) or (3b) Limits the capabilities of a BP chain (Max 2-3 BP-ers per team). I think someone suggested limiting the number of times BP can be used in a span of turns, but I don't think that is going to happen.
Please refer topost number 580 the post quoted as a response to the Mold Breaker Taunt/Roar point. If you don't want to, allow me to summarize: With one CM, Sylveon OHKOs every Mold Breaker Taunt/Roar user, bar M-Gyarados who gets OHKO-ed 87.5% of the time.
This is kind of confusing me now since we can't really do anything if these all stand as true. If we want something to be done about BP, we either have to (1) Sacrifice some pokemon's niches (Speed Boost+BP and the like), (2) Sacrifice a move (Outright Ban BP), which may as a result cause #1, or (3) settle on a complex ban of some sort that either (3a) kills some pokemon use/combination of abilities (Speed Boost+BP+Magic Bounce or something like that) or (3b) Limits the capabilities of a BP chain (Max 2-3 BP-ers per team). I think someone suggested limiting the number of times BP can be used in a span of turns, but I don't think that is going to happen.
Hello there. I'm not sure if you have read many of the points made against BP teams, but this is definitely more than the opinion of 'a few unhappy battlers'.
Please refer to
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I'd say allowing 3 BP users on one team is too much. Scolipede/Espeon/Mega Scizor is all you need to boost every single stat to +6. Yes, it wouldn't be as solid as current Baton Pass teams, but it would still be more than solid enough to remain a usable "playstyle".
Honestly I don't see any legitimate reason for an actual team to have more than one baton pass user, but I suppose if your running Screens Espeon and Scolipede together for whatever reason I can see it.
In short, I would suggest a "Baton Pass Chain Clause" or something similar, limiting teams to 1-2 Baton Pass users, because 3 is still enough to salvage the core of a BP Chain.
Honestly I don't see any legitimate reason for an actual team to have more than one baton pass user, but I suppose if your running Screens Espeon and Scolipede together for whatever reason I can see it.
In short, I would suggest a "Baton Pass Chain Clause" or something similar, limiting teams to 1-2 Baton Pass users, because 3 is still enough to salvage the core of a BP Chain.
I already mentioned how in my previous post. Invasive in practice versus paper.
Wow, 24 pages and no comment by me. I just wanted to test the dish before commenting on the taste (which i think, many people are doing).
After facing about infinite no. of bp teams and using some myself, i think Baton pass is broken, not uncompetitive like, swagger. BP can't be used without skill but the amount of skill needed is not very high. All you need is a little common sense and some knowledge of speed tiers. Against offensive teams it all depends on the lead matchups. If my opponent gets a np / sd up it is mostly gg for me but when i see thundy / pinsir i would lead with sylveon / zapdos but if my opponent realises this and sends in something that can ko them it becomes a game of prediction until i get some speed boosts. But, the chances of this are quite slim and in 8 out of 10 cases bp will come out at top. I still remember the first time i broke into the top 300 of the ladder in bw2 was with a stolen rmt called "baton pass my a$$" and in the 6th generation bp got many buffs making it a playstyle rather than a gimmick. It is no more, like, if you have a strong dark type attacker, you win, due to sylveon. If you have to use haze on quagsire, you know something is wrong. On the higher ladder, almost 1 out of 4 people are using BP which shows how easy it is to utilise BP. BP needs to be nerfed to make the metagame enjoyable and to those who enjoy using BP, i want to say I ENJOYED USING SWAGGER. But, that doesn't mean that it was not uncompetitive.
On the topic of possible nerfs, the best way to go is to limit the number of pokes with bp on a team.
After facing about infinite no. of bp teams and using some myself, i think Baton pass is broken, not uncompetitive like, swagger. BP can't be used without skill but the amount of skill needed is not very high. All you need is a little common sense and some knowledge of speed tiers. Against offensive teams it all depends on the lead matchups. If my opponent gets a np / sd up it is mostly gg for me but when i see thundy / pinsir i would lead with sylveon / zapdos but if my opponent realises this and sends in something that can ko them it becomes a game of prediction until i get some speed boosts. But, the chances of this are quite slim and in 8 out of 10 cases bp will come out at top. I still remember the first time i broke into the top 300 of the ladder in bw2 was with a stolen rmt called "baton pass my a$$" and in the 6th generation bp got many buffs making it a playstyle rather than a gimmick. It is no more, like, if you have a strong dark type attacker, you win, due to sylveon. If you have to use haze on quagsire, you know something is wrong. On the higher ladder, almost 1 out of 4 people are using BP which shows how easy it is to utilise BP. BP needs to be nerfed to make the metagame enjoyable and to those who enjoy using BP, i want to say I ENJOYED USING SWAGGER. But, that doesn't mean that it was not uncompetitive.
On the topic of possible nerfs, the best way to go is to limit the number of pokes with bp on a team.
Not a single move, ability, pokemon, or combination is banned. It is the least invasive in all respects.
Look the point of not having complex bans is nothing to do with practice, it is completely to do with simplicity of banlist. There is also one thing about suspect tests that you are missing: we don't usually revisit things. It is very rare that we revisit issues, because it wastes a lot of time and delays other things. We might do something like unban Genesect or something someday in the future when we have a more settled metagame, but there are multiple things to test after this; I really doubt we'll get to BP again for a while. Let's do it right the first time instead of 'testing hypotheses'. Finally less invasive is not necessarily better; in this scenario a more hard-handed approach to fix the issue is necessary.
I actually think when you get to this point, the chain has been nerfed to the point where they aren't really an issue. Having actually tested 3-mon BP chains I can say with confidence that you don't really have a salvageable core.
The point of the thread is to find a way to control the playstyle because obviously a ton of people believe it has gotten out of hand. If someone thinks that limiting a team to only three users of the move is the way to do this, they're allowed to propose that. Rather than trying to preach about what this thread is about, offer up an alternate solution or at least offer some kind of constructive post.
I also just cleared out a bunch of posts because people don't seem to be thinking before typing. Don't insult people. Don't post if you don't have something to offer. Before you click "Post Reply," read your post and consider: would you want to read your own post if you were reading through this thread?
recycle + leppa berry + recover/pain split is banned under endless battle clause.
I think the point that they were trying to make is that Baton Pass does not require a very high level of skill to execute correctly since it is normally degrades to your opponent hopelessly bringing in counter after counter to try and stop the chain while you rack up boosts, whereas any other team team would actually have some trouble if you brought in a counter to one of their pokemon.
So it wasn't a ban on grounds of 'honor' it was just a point on how BP wasn't played prior to this because of the generally accepted concept of 'honor' in a strategic build as opposed to a more cookie-cutter version of a team.
Again with the doing things because that's what we've always done. Until you can tell me exactly why that's the best way to do it, I don't see it as valid.
I also don't see how a cap is failing to fix the problem without harming other strategies.
I also don't see how a cap is failing to fix the problem without harming other strategies.
Lol I'm not gonna bother arguing with anyone here. I think we've reached the point where we can say 'suspect testing' is code word for 'Here's the next thing we're banning to ubers.' Course in this instance that might not be the case and instead a complex ban might occur. Either way I still think full chain teams should be left alone and people all for 'changing' that are just looking for an easy way out. How else would you stop your generic stall and hyper offence teams from getting wrecked whenever they encountered said teams.
NOTE: I'm not a fan and do not use teams like these myself but have gone against and destroyed most the ones I encountered. Sadly you'll have to take that at face value since the battles where short, boring and all ended up with forfeits so I didn't bother to save them. The team I had at the time had two volt switchers and a pokemon with roar but of course the people on the other end didn't know that.
BungleHumper :
There are many, many more teams that get wrecked than your "generic" Stall and HO, of which by the way are endless iterations and variations. (Worth to note also that HO has the most fighting chance against BP - not that it's saying much.) It has been demonstrated in this thread many times, that save for teams with extremely specialised, obscure counters, which you would have no occasion to use other than for baton pass teams, and maybe a handful of wallbreakers in a HO team, you just lose and basta. People are not stupid, and they're not so manic about their ratings, that they'd rather get rid of a threat to their supposed "generic" team through ceremony. They ask themselves, "how can I beat these bloody hideous baton pass teams?" and the answer they get is likely the same. In no other team archetype is such a black-and-white auto-win or auto-lose so deterministic. As much as I despise Deosharp, I know, that with enough playing around and answers to the Defiant+Hazard carousel, you can win against it. You seldom ever get this hope again baton pass.
And just for record, we suspected Deo-S this gen and it didn't get banned :^)
There are many, many more teams that get wrecked than your "generic" Stall and HO, of which by the way are endless iterations and variations. (Worth to note also that HO has the most fighting chance against BP - not that it's saying much.) It has been demonstrated in this thread many times, that save for teams with extremely specialised, obscure counters, which you would have no occasion to use other than for baton pass teams, and maybe a handful of wallbreakers in a HO team, you just lose and basta. People are not stupid, and they're not so manic about their ratings, that they'd rather get rid of a threat to their supposed "generic" team through ceremony. They ask themselves, "how can I beat these bloody hideous baton pass teams?" and the answer they get is likely the same. In no other team archetype is such a black-and-white auto-win or auto-lose so deterministic. As much as I despise Deosharp, I know, that with enough playing around and answers to the Defiant+Hazard carousel, you can win against it. You seldom ever get this hope again baton pass.
And just for record, we suspected Deo-S this gen and it didn't get banned :^)
I haven't actually participated in this discussion other than deleting some shitty posts and telling people not to make shitty posts, but I figured I might as well throw out my thoughts while I'm here.
Why is a Baton Pass suspect test not being discussed at all? If Baton Pass were to be suspected and subsequently banned, we'll have dealt with the issue at hand efficiently, effectively, and wholly. I can't think of any major downfalls outside of not being able to use the move outside of full Baton Pass teams. But when you think about it, coming up with some insane complex ban for Baton Pass totally goes against the way we operate. We avoid complex bans when we can, and this is a situation where it's absolutely feasible. You're not making anything else overpowered by banning it. You're not nerfing a ton of Pokemon by banning it. The only downside is that some Pokemon that utilized Baton Pass outside of full Baton Pass chains can no longer do that. But in that same way, when Mega Gengar was banned, some sweepers lost out on a lot of power by having more trouble handling their own checks and counters. You can't ban something without hurting something else, and I think this is a prime example of that.
Just stop wasting time and suspect Baton Pass.
Why is a Baton Pass suspect test not being discussed at all? If Baton Pass were to be suspected and subsequently banned, we'll have dealt with the issue at hand efficiently, effectively, and wholly. I can't think of any major downfalls outside of not being able to use the move outside of full Baton Pass teams. But when you think about it, coming up with some insane complex ban for Baton Pass totally goes against the way we operate. We avoid complex bans when we can, and this is a situation where it's absolutely feasible. You're not making anything else overpowered by banning it. You're not nerfing a ton of Pokemon by banning it. The only downside is that some Pokemon that utilized Baton Pass outside of full Baton Pass chains can no longer do that. But in that same way, when Mega Gengar was banned, some sweepers lost out on a lot of power by having more trouble handling their own checks and counters. You can't ban something without hurting something else, and I think this is a prime example of that.
Just stop wasting time and suspect Baton Pass.
Quickpassing is very much a thing, though, and is not only a legitimate strategy but much easier to counterplay. I really would wish, Kyurem-B or M-Mawile had some speed-boosting move, but they don't, and a quick and dirty speed boost with Scolipede is the easiest way. A blanket ban on Baton Pass would nerf more Pokémon, than we'd have need to - not only Scolipede alone, for example, or Espeon alone, but things, that enjoy using baton pass to pivot, which you do see occasionally (M-Medicham for example)
I actually don't think, restricting the number of baton pass in a team is so complex. In fact, it would be the least "complex" of a not targeted to a single Pokémon/move ban. It brings to the mind the restricted cards in many TGC-games, of which a player may carry only one or two; it's not exactly unheard of in competitive games.
I actually don't think, restricting the number of baton pass in a team is so complex. In fact, it would be the least "complex" of a not targeted to a single Pokémon/move ban. It brings to the mind the restricted cards in many TGC-games, of which a player may carry only one or two; it's not exactly unheard of in competitive games.
Yeah, I think you fail to understand the definition of a counter. Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Mold Breaker isn't a check nor a counter. Mold Breaker also has poor distribution, and the few who run Mold Breaker are offensive threats, and applying Taunt is suboptimal. Furthermore, Mold Breaker Taunt users are outpaced by existence of Speed Boost.
Your idea of a 'counter' is truly a Taunting Mega Gyrados? Mega Gyrados fails to counter or stop Baton Pass, and is entirely outsped.
I'll keep it short and simple.
Baton Pass is essentially a car. All the pokemon (Espeon, Scoilipede, Zapdos, Smeargle, Sylveon, and Vaporeon) work together in order to operate as one. If you remove a piece of this "car" then everything becomes less efficient. Take out Scoliepede, you can't outspeed checks and counters. Take out Espeon, you have to deal with hazards etc. Take out Sylveon you get mauled by Dark Types.
Cap the Baton Pass limit to 2-3 per team and you have tough decisions to make.
Baton Pass is essentially a car. All the pokemon (Espeon, Scoilipede, Zapdos, Smeargle, Sylveon, and Vaporeon) work together in order to operate as one. If you remove a piece of this "car" then everything becomes less efficient. Take out Scoliepede, you can't outspeed checks and counters. Take out Espeon, you have to deal with hazards etc. Take out Sylveon you get mauled by Dark Types.
Cap the Baton Pass limit to 2-3 per team and you have tough decisions to make.
You never told me to stop making shitty posts. :(
If you have to do something, I agree that limiting the number of passers on a team would be the best way to go. You don't have to decide that any use of Baton Pass is anti-fun like you do with everything else you ban. I don't even use Baton Pass and think removing it entirely or even removing it from teams that have an Espeon or whatnot on it is a stupid idea.
If you don't have a Pokemon with Unaware, like my Quagsire in this replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-107756470
...you'll get destroyed. Baton Pass teams like this is the reason why when it comes to team building on my end, an Unaware Quagsire and/or Clefable ends up as a mandatory team member(s). I feel as if this centralization has limited my creativity when it comes to trying out new Pokemon, and I'm all for having BP nerfed in some way, shape or form or even banned.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-107756470
...you'll get destroyed. Baton Pass teams like this is the reason why when it comes to team building on my end, an Unaware Quagsire and/or Clefable ends up as a mandatory team member(s). I feel as if this centralization has limited my creativity when it comes to trying out new Pokemon, and I'm all for having BP nerfed in some way, shape or form or even banned.
I don't chime in often because I don't have a lot of footing to stand on. That said, I have made a bit of a career being a tournament organizer at both the local level and at the convention level. When I think of bans and the process of banning things, I don't ever think of it outside of being a results-oriented conclusion. That is to say, how can the discussion be productive if we are not looking at results?
People have mentioned previously that suspect testing is subjective: of course it is, but that does that make it inconclusive? As far as I am concerned, a suspect test involves developing a relationship between the hundreds upon thousands of moving parts that make up the (Smogon) metagame against a particular playstyle/moveset/Pokemon/etc. If we create a vacuum where all we do is test Baton Pass against the current field, how are we not determining whether or not it is unhealthy for the format? Again, speaking from the perspective of having seen the process in other games and metagames firsthand, you cannot say for certain that Baton Pass is overcentralizing or not until a suspect test is conducted, plain and simple.
Please note that I am not arguing for or against the banning of Baton Pass. I am merely suggesting that the merit of moving through the process of banning Baton Pass is far more productive than arguing if Baton Pass is good or bad for the metagame.
People have mentioned previously that suspect testing is subjective: of course it is, but that does that make it inconclusive? As far as I am concerned, a suspect test involves developing a relationship between the hundreds upon thousands of moving parts that make up the (Smogon) metagame against a particular playstyle/moveset/Pokemon/etc. If we create a vacuum where all we do is test Baton Pass against the current field, how are we not determining whether or not it is unhealthy for the format? Again, speaking from the perspective of having seen the process in other games and metagames firsthand, you cannot say for certain that Baton Pass is overcentralizing or not until a suspect test is conducted, plain and simple.
Please note that I am not arguing for or against the banning of Baton Pass. I am merely suggesting that the merit of moving through the process of banning Baton Pass is far more productive than arguing if Baton Pass is good or bad for the metagame.
Then nerf it. "It makes me feel bad" isn't reason to ban a thing, otherwise people would rally to ban Stealth Rocks because running Talonflame makes their dick feel big.
e: Sorry to be a dick but it feels like the whole process of deciding whether or not to ban a thing without moving along to suspect testing always turns into a big circlejerk that goes nowhere and makes everyone feel shitty in the long run
What is so great about avoiding complex bans that's worth all this collateral damage? Unlike with Swagger, there is no questioning that Baton Pass by itself is not broken or uncompetitive, and there's many Pokemon that use it outside of BP chains.
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So here's something for a change of pace. Earlier today I decided to go out and test some BP counterleads. As most of us on the topic already know, victory or defeat can be decided within the first few turns of the game, so having a good lead is crucial. Here are a couple of mons that I believe can severely hamper or even outright counter BP teams. Shoutout to Solosislove for being willing to screw around with me for an hour to accomplish this, and without further ado, I bring you the results with (some) recorded battles.
Note on testing procedure: To ensure that these tests are as prediction free as possible, I made every attempt to announce my move before making it in an attempt to take away all meaningful prediction on the opponent's part and allow him to play optimally. That being said, he requested me to post this disclaimer...
Hard Counter analytic Magnezone
The set was modest 252 hp, 252 spa with lefties, subs, flash cannon, and tbolt. This set has a free moveslot, yet it was enough to 6-0 a BP team. That being said, early on in the replay, my opponent made a misplay and allowed me to setup subs for free. This turned out to not matter, take a look. Notice how he tanks a +2 hyper voice without a single sweat on forehead.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-109777964
Feel free to argue that the team was suboptimal or that my opponent was bad, but if a single mon can blow through a relatively standard BP team like that, then it obviously is a viable check if nothing else to a good BP team. And this is not some deadweight mon like haze murkrow, this is one of the better special wallbreakers out there. In some ways it's even better then lando-I (it doesn't die to a strong wind for starters).
Good Check #1 Mega Medicham
Mega medicham is pretty much gaurenteed a kill if lead against anything other then sylveon, and it can 2hko sylv easily. Furthermore, if it gets a hit on scolo, it can follow up with BP for a kill, which is very valuable.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-109781120
Good Check #2 Mega Hera I mentioned this guy in my last post and he's a lot like mega medicham with 2 important differences.
difference #1 no priority, not that it matters that much.
difference #2 it can actually beat sylveon 1v1. Megahera actually outspeeds sylv and can take a hyper voice, easily 2hkoing back.
Sadly I didn't think to save the replay (it was very similar to the previous replay. Force out scolopede, maul scizor, gets revenged by sylveon but not before taking more than half it's health). Let me know if that's a problem and I'll edit the post. Still a very solid anti-lead
Meh Check #1 Megazard-Y
Quoth the Jukain
This is literally what happened in the replay, that I also didn't think to save. Derp.
Meh Check #2 Thundy-I
Mostly a neusince for BP. He can kill espeon with dark pulse, and taunt everything else, but sylveon again hard counters him. You need to swap to something like bandtei or magnezone to break past sylveon.
In case you all were wondering about the random mandibuzz, it's phys defensive mandi with 1 move, u-turn. It's to counter smeargle basically.
Note on testing procedure: To ensure that these tests are as prediction free as possible, I made every attempt to announce my move before making it in an attempt to take away all meaningful prediction on the opponent's part and allow him to play optimally. That being said, he requested me to post this disclaimer...
Hard Counter analytic Magnezone
The set was modest 252 hp, 252 spa with lefties, subs, flash cannon, and tbolt. This set has a free moveslot, yet it was enough to 6-0 a BP team. That being said, early on in the replay, my opponent made a misplay and allowed me to setup subs for free. This turned out to not matter, take a look. Notice how he tanks a +2 hyper voice without a single sweat on forehead.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-109777964
Feel free to argue that the team was suboptimal or that my opponent was bad, but if a single mon can blow through a relatively standard BP team like that, then it obviously is a viable check if nothing else to a good BP team. And this is not some deadweight mon like haze murkrow, this is one of the better special wallbreakers out there. In some ways it's even better then lando-I (it doesn't die to a strong wind for starters).
Good Check #1 Mega Medicham
Mega medicham is pretty much gaurenteed a kill if lead against anything other then sylveon, and it can 2hko sylv easily. Furthermore, if it gets a hit on scolo, it can follow up with BP for a kill, which is very valuable.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-109781120
Good Check #2 Mega Hera I mentioned this guy in my last post and he's a lot like mega medicham with 2 important differences.
difference #1 no priority, not that it matters that much.
difference #2 it can actually beat sylveon 1v1. Megahera actually outspeeds sylv and can take a hyper voice, easily 2hkoing back.
Sadly I didn't think to save the replay (it was very similar to the previous replay. Force out scolopede, maul scizor, gets revenged by sylveon but not before taking more than half it's health). Let me know if that's a problem and I'll edit the post. Still a very solid anti-lead
Meh Check #1 Megazard-Y
Quoth the Jukain
This is literally what happened in the replay, that I also didn't think to save. Derp.
Meh Check #2 Thundy-I
Mostly a neusince for BP. He can kill espeon with dark pulse, and taunt everything else, but sylveon again hard counters him. You need to swap to something like bandtei or magnezone to break past sylveon.
In case you all were wondering about the random mandibuzz, it's phys defensive mandi with 1 move, u-turn. It's to counter smeargle basically.
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Let's be blunt here. There is only one team that people see constantly used upper ladder and it's Scolipede/Zapdos/Espeon/Sylveon/Vaporen/Smeargle. Occasionally with a Mr Mime thrown in somewhere. This particular team is used by literally dozens of players and over-centralizes not only the entire meta but the very ladder itself. Why? Because it's broken. Look at the replies in this thread so far, and tell me that all of these counters are practical or usable in any circumstance other than stopping bp chains. They aren't. Fact is; when you have to use outlandish, specific pokemon and sets (That are very few in number if you are playing a decent player), there is a problem. It often removes the concept of prediction from most battles and leaves the player totally helpless unless they have a prankster taunt or something of the like. Even then: Espeon. Should the move itself be banned? Course not. I believe the obvious solution is to simply ban Espeon having both Magic Bounce and Bp simultaneously. That simple change alone would eliminate the problem whilst keeping the playstyle itself in a reasonable standing. No solid metagame can be had when players are so restricted that they HAVE to run a specific kind of pokemon just to have a mere chance at victory against a certain playstyle. Bp is clearly broken. Something NEEDS to change.
The issue I have with this is that "counter" means switching in. The best counter to BP teams is leading properly. Of course nothing switches into a Baton pass chain five turns down the line, but all you have to do is lead with a good poke and you'll be able to, as the great Fleetwood Mac indicated, break the chain.
(Most of this post isn't directed at you, I just quoted because it leads into my first sentence pretty much.)
I just don't see this at all. Several options have been laid out as counters. And I don't mean the "switch in later" counters, I mean lead off and go counters. Curse (the Ghost variety), Destiny Bond, Taunt, Roar, Red Card, Perish Song, a hyper offensive lead, Snatch, Haze, Mega Alakazam (It always beats Scolipede), Mega Pinsir, and of course, our friends Clefable and Quagsire.
I know, I know, they've all been refuted up and down based on "viability". But the fact is maybe the current idea of the metagame has become a little too narrow. If one fourth of the meta runs BP, then why isn't running counters to them viable? If running one Pokemon (or one moveslot on one pokemon) checks this much of the metagame, then it seems viable to me. It's not like the distribution is that of Magic Bounce.
I understand that people don't want the game to be decided on a few turns. But truly, that's how most games are decided, they just don't occur at the beginning.
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