I really like this idea, it's shouldn't be hard to do, and it takes away one of the key parts of a Baton Pass team. This also has littledoesn't have much collateral damage as it just prevents you from using Espeon, and Scolipede on the same team.
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
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Hey guys, I'd like to add a thought to the thread: if we ban scolipede, what's stopping people from using ninjask instead?
Sure, everyone knows ninjask is objectively worse than scolipede, but would it be too much of a stretch to think that the bp team would still remain very effective? Because it still has the other new toys like sylveon and Mr. Mime, as well as the rest of the tools that make bp function.
And then, if we end up banning ninjask, it may finally nerf bp for good (which I don't want to happen, but I've already given my opinion on that). But then, I'd like to point that we will have banned 60% of the fully evolved speed boosters in the game.
Which takes me to the conclusion: isn't speed boost the problem? It seems every time a non horrible pokemon gets Speed Boost, it causes problems to the metagame. Maybe it's the time we should discuss whether we should ban speed boost instead. Because that would simultaneously nerf baton pass permanently, make blaziken not broken and prevent any speed booster from unbalacing the metagame ever again, which will likely keep happening as long as new pokemon keep getting released. Speed boost is just that broken of a ability, and I think it's been an elephant in the room for quite some time.
Maybe this is a case where kairyu's point about just cutting out the broken element from the metagame should be applied: what if, instead of discussing complex bans involving speed boosters every 2 years, we just call it a day and add speed boost to the list of banned abilities, alongside moody?
This is literally the least complex ban we can make, and it will solve many problems that are happening and will probably happen in the future.
Sure, everyone knows ninjask is objectively worse than scolipede, but would it be too much of a stretch to think that the bp team would still remain very effective? Because it still has the other new toys like sylveon and Mr. Mime, as well as the rest of the tools that make bp function.
And then, if we end up banning ninjask, it may finally nerf bp for good (which I don't want to happen, but I've already given my opinion on that). But then, I'd like to point that we will have banned 60% of the fully evolved speed boosters in the game.
Which takes me to the conclusion: isn't speed boost the problem? It seems every time a non horrible pokemon gets Speed Boost, it causes problems to the metagame. Maybe it's the time we should discuss whether we should ban speed boost instead. Because that would simultaneously nerf baton pass permanently, make blaziken not broken and prevent any speed booster from unbalacing the metagame ever again, which will likely keep happening as long as new pokemon keep getting released. Speed boost is just that broken of a ability, and I think it's been an elephant in the room for quite some time.
Maybe this is a case where kairyu's point about just cutting out the broken element from the metagame should be applied: what if, instead of discussing complex bans involving speed boosters every 2 years, we just call it a day and add speed boost to the list of banned abilities, alongside moody?
This is literally the least complex ban we can make, and it will solve many problems that are happening and will probably happen in the future.
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Baton pass is by no means a luck based strategy and does require some levels of prediction as well as good plays, and as deadly as speed boost- baton pass can be, the fact stands that magic bounce pokemon are generally frail and can almost always get ohkod, espeon has 60 base defence and mega absol has 60 in both defences, so a relatively strong physical attack will break the chain. Banning magic bounce/ baton pass is not a good option (in my opinion), because Absol and espeon are actually not that good pokemon without baton pass (competitevly). I believe the problem is speed boost. I would support the introduction of complex bans where pokemon with speed boost AND baton pass be banned although scolipede is the major speed booster, ninjask may come to replace it when it gets banned. Also, perish song counters baton pass.
Conclusion: Ban speed boost OR pokemon that get BOTH speed boost and baton pass.
Conclusion: Ban speed boost OR pokemon that get BOTH speed boost and baton pass.
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Because most of what needs to be said about BP has been said there's only one point I'd like to make. What many who are against nerfing BP say is that "Move/Ability/Pokemon A" can be used to stop a BP chain with a shitton of luck. This is not a fix. While most players who utilise BP will usually forfeit after losing a mon/having the chain broken, like someone in this thread said "A resilient player can start up the chain again," prolonging the problem and usually bludgeoning the non-BP player into submission through either a successful setup or sheer frustration.
I believe that the best course of action is to limit the number of mons with BP on a team to 2 or 3. This doesn't stop BP from being used on mons who need it for non-BP chain reasons (lol Espeon) but means that BP chains, while still able to be used, will be unable to snowball out of control.
I believe that the best course of action is to limit the number of mons with BP on a team to 2 or 3. This doesn't stop BP from being used on mons who need it for non-BP chain reasons (lol Espeon) but means that BP chains, while still able to be used, will be unable to snowball out of control.
If you baton pass into a SE hit, without a sub, and you don't have the boosts to survive it, then you have done something wrong i'd think. Most BP teams won't make that mistake unless its against something like Eelektross (how many of those do you see in OU) where you literally cannot know what it runs until it uses it.
If you BP into a u-turn/volt switch and your opponent can switch out, nothing stops you from bp-ing out next turn into something less threatened than whatever gets brought in.
If you have ingrain (normally set up fairly early, probably after scolipede has most needed boosts, Smeargle can outspeed and Spore generally speaking, buying you the turn needed if not behind a sub) Whirlwind does nothing. Either that or Magic Bounce.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with speed boost itself. Banning speed boost with not only hurt Scoliopede and Ninjask, but also perfectly good pokemon without baton pass in the lower tiers, such as Sharpedo and Yanmega. And there's nothing broken about Scoliopede either, just thats the support it adds to full BP teams, helps BP teams become incredibly difficult to stop. But its still the BP teams themselves that are truly broken.
No, it isn't. My point was that if BP teams need to get past Unaware users, they can, even without Stored Power. They don't run Energy Ball now because they don't need to, but if they did need to, they could. I know that banning Stored Power would make BP teams worse, that's obvious, but my point was that they would still be usable and they would still be almost as broken, which is the very thing we're trying to stop with this ban.
Saying Scizor has no place on Baton Pass teams is completely ridiculous. Sure, it's not all that common, but Scizor is still used on BP occasionally. The fact that it has a whopping one weakness in common with Scolipede is entirely irrelevant. Mr. Mime and Sylveon are frequently on the same BP team and have not one but two shared weaknesses, not to mention the fact that they both pass Calm Mind. You're just making stuff up at this point.
rachet67 , I'll need to think about that one, but I can't think of a reason not to do that (besides it being a complex ban, but it's not an overly complex one, so I'm good :) ), so I think something like Speed boost + Magic Bounce should work.
As for Speed Boost, don't ban the ability, ban the broken abusers. Only one, possibly two speed boosters are worth banning, and banning the ability would be like banning Shadow Tag when only Gengarite's broken or banning Parental Bond when Kangaskhanite's broken. Both are arguably the root problem, but we didn't ban the abilities, we banned the pokemon. I'm not going to say that we try to preserve other sets for pokemon not broken, but we didn't ban sand rush because only Excadrill was broken, and Stoutland obviously was not.
As for Speed Boost, don't ban the ability, ban the broken abusers. Only one, possibly two speed boosters are worth banning, and banning the ability would be like banning Shadow Tag when only Gengarite's broken or banning Parental Bond when Kangaskhanite's broken. Both are arguably the root problem, but we didn't ban the abilities, we banned the pokemon. I'm not going to say that we try to preserve other sets for pokemon not broken, but we didn't ban sand rush because only Excadrill was broken, and Stoutland obviously was not.
The point is that, while many viable strategies with speed boost exist and are not broken, it's that kind of ability that has the potebntial to instantly break the metagame every time it's added to a pokemon, as long as that pokemon has somethong as simple as good attacking stats (blaziken) or an useful support move (baton pass). How many more suspect tests and complex bans will happen in the future as new pokemon get speed boost? Is preserving the viability of yanmega worth the trouble? Speed boost is like a tumor, it doesn't kill anything by itself, but it can develop into a cancer anytime, and we keep discussing complicated ways of treating the every cancer it causes instead of just cutting off the tumor.
Since when is telling the truth an insult? Using a combination of strong physical and special attackers along with good play will win you games against BP on a regular basis so your whole argument that "You need to use stupid shit to have any chance against BP" is proven wrong and it doesnt become right just because your repeating it all the time. That leaves you with solely one argument "Those things arent 100% counters to BP". Calling that an argument is an exaggeration to beginn with imo and it shows what kind of "competitive" player you are. If theres some kind of competition you dont like, just ban it. If there was something to beat Stall/Balance/HO or what ever 100% of the time that something would be banned but now you want to ban BP because nothing beats it 100% of the time, kinda ironic if you think about it.
There is absolutely nothing broken about BP. By using standard stuff and your brain you can beat it, not 100% of the time but that shouldnt be the goal to beginn with. However unlike any standard team you can get very close to beating it 100% of the time by using semi standard stuff like Guardevoir or Mega Alakazam.
Its annoying to play against, I will give you that much but thats not a good reason to ban it imo.
Oh and before you start using your favorite argument again, I am solid top 100 in the OU ladder so I do have experience against decent BP teams and I cant say that I feel helpless against them, sure I dont beat them all the time but as already said, that shouldnt be the goal.
This is a discussion about nerfing full Baton Pass teams. Banning Scolipede, or Espeon, or Magic Bounce, or Speed Boost hurts more than just full BP teams. If a ban is implemented, it would be catered towards something that solely focuses on those kind of teams. Which is why I feel like banning Magic Bounce + Baton Pass or banning more than 1 Passer on a team are the most viable options here. None of these Pokémon or abilities are broken by themselves, it would be ludicrous to ban Scolipede.
Honestly this "no complex ban" stuff has to stop. Are we really going to dismiss Scolipede for instance because of it's effect on one particular team? I know my opinion isn't the most common around here, but I think it's time complex bans became a thing. Let's isolate the problem & deal with it rather than just ban the entire thing when it isn't broken. There have been complex bans before so I'm not sure why people are so against it this time. Hell, there's even been a complex ban directed towards BP teams before (the Ingrain + Baton Pass ban).
It seems like Baton Pass teams are becoming the rain teams of Gen V. That time, things were banned to try nerf the playstyle without it being so detrimental to it that nobody used it anymore. Drizzle + Swift Swim, then the genies. We should do that with BP. Regardless if people think it's a braindead playstyle (nobody's talking about Deosharp getting suspected), it's still a playstyle. Rather than banning a playstyle because you find it frustrating, try to just nerf it until it's on the same footing as everything else. That's why the bans I mentioned at the beginning of this post to me seem like the best choices, because they solely focus on full BP teams.
Honestly this "no complex ban" stuff has to stop. Are we really going to dismiss Scolipede for instance because of it's effect on one particular team? I know my opinion isn't the most common around here, but I think it's time complex bans became a thing. Let's isolate the problem & deal with it rather than just ban the entire thing when it isn't broken. There have been complex bans before so I'm not sure why people are so against it this time. Hell, there's even been a complex ban directed towards BP teams before (the Ingrain + Baton Pass ban).
It seems like Baton Pass teams are becoming the rain teams of Gen V. That time, things were banned to try nerf the playstyle without it being so detrimental to it that nobody used it anymore. Drizzle + Swift Swim, then the genies. We should do that with BP. Regardless if people think it's a braindead playstyle (nobody's talking about Deosharp getting suspected), it's still a playstyle. Rather than banning a playstyle because you find it frustrating, try to just nerf it until it's on the same footing as everything else. That's why the bans I mentioned at the beginning of this post to me seem like the best choices, because they solely focus on full BP teams.
Seriously? A whopping one Pokemon is broken with Speed Boost. Scolipede isn't broken, BP chains are, so it doesn't count. Given that Speed Boost is present on a dozen or so Pokemon but only broken on one, I find this claim to be absolutely absurd. Banning an ability because it's broken on a only very small percentage of the Pokemon that get it is a terrible idea. We might as well ban Download instead of banning Genesect.
There is simply no room for Scizor and Mawile in a dedicated BP team. Scolipede is an absolute must, who already provides defense and speed boosts and Trick is already blocked by Sub, which almost every team member runs. The only negotiable team members are Zapdos and Mr.Mime, who compete for the 6th slot. Everything else is already covered.
On another note, this replay shows why Unaware+Haze Quagsire doesn't stop BP teams: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-109976956
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I don't, like many other players in this thread, consider BP a legitimate playstyle. I consider it a stupid way for worse players to beat better players, and a way for tourney players to fish for a bs autowin (happened in the QF of OST). As you mentioned DrizzleSwim: guess what, we fucked up the first time and never got to revisit Drizzle, ruining an entire generation. Let's NOT do that. We're wasting our time if we don't get rid of BP. I don't want to deal with the same cancerous bs we're dealing with now ever. Unless you want to spend months facing BP we should just nip it at the bud, and that's a cap of 3.
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So we can use an alternative ban like [Speed Boost+Baton Pass]+[Stored Power+Baton Pass]?
Speed Boost + Baton Pass won't shut down BP.
Banning ability / pokemon move is too complex imo.
Banning speed boost is stupid (no offense) as it makes many pokemon unviable (although, it would bring blazi back :O) and quick passing is a legitimate strategy as is life orb scolipede.
Banning baton pass has the same demerits of fucking up quick pass as well as the pokemon who use it to gain momentum or bypassing pursuit.
Banning stored power hurts cosmic power clefable and sigilyph in lower tiers.
The best way to go is to limit the number of passers on a team as has been suggested by many.
Banning speed boost is stupid (no offense) as it makes many pokemon unviable (although, it would bring blazi back :O) and quick passing is a legitimate strategy as is life orb scolipede.
Banning baton pass has the same demerits of fucking up quick pass as well as the pokemon who use it to gain momentum or bypassing pursuit.
Banning stored power hurts cosmic power clefable and sigilyph in lower tiers.
The best way to go is to limit the number of passers on a team as has been suggested by many.
Random (possibly dumb) thought at work, what if we impose a rule like: Only 1 Pokemon per team can have Baton Pass.
Essentially kills BP chain teams while still allowing you to use BP as strategy on your team if you so choose, and no banning of pokemon and abilities. If a 1 pokemon limit is too strict, then maybe bump the limit up to 2 (any more and it'll defeat the purpose IMO).
EDIT: Oh I guess others have already thought of this, my bad lol.
Essentially kills BP chain teams while still allowing you to use BP as strategy on your team if you so choose, and no banning of pokemon and abilities. If a 1 pokemon limit is too strict, then maybe bump the limit up to 2 (any more and it'll defeat the purpose IMO).
EDIT: Oh I guess others have already thought of this, my bad lol.
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While I personally have no problems with complex bans, the main reason IIRC why smogon tries to avoid them is because it's almost impossible to agree on anything otherwise. How do you determine how many baton passers you're allowed on a team? Is kangaskhanite itself broken or is it just PuP and Seismic Toss? Is Gengarite fine if you ban Perish Song when it's used in combination? Why not allow Blaze Blaziken? What about kyogre but only limited to level 70 maximum and no hydro pump or water spout?
Limiting options to just A or B make arguing and voting on what should be banned or not a LOT easier.
Though unfortunately I don't think a simple ban is possible with BP teams.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but another reason why I feel uncomfortable with baton pass becoming a viable strategy is that it renders a couple Pokemon absolutely worthless. Not even outclassed, or less useful. Not even something that lures out counters to try and gain momentum. Absolutely worthless in the face of baton passing teams.
The one that I remember striking me the most is Skarmory. Part of the reason why I stopped using Skarmory when facing > 1700 ELO opponents is because it couldn't do anything to baton pass teams. I love Skarmory, it's been a bud for me for several generations. But just like what Mega Gengar does to Chansey in Ubers, there's no reason to run Skarmory ever if Baton Passing becomes even more popular than it already is. I feel uncomfortable that Baton Pass renders some otherwise good Pokemon worthless.
The one that I remember striking me the most is Skarmory. Part of the reason why I stopped using Skarmory when facing > 1700 ELO opponents is because it couldn't do anything to baton pass teams. I love Skarmory, it's been a bud for me for several generations. But just like what Mega Gengar does to Chansey in Ubers, there's no reason to run Skarmory ever if Baton Passing becomes even more popular than it already is. I feel uncomfortable that Baton Pass renders some otherwise good Pokemon worthless.
The reason to pick 3 is simply that we should go as far as we need to. 5 mon BP chains are easily competent (sans not needed Mime/Zapdos), even 4 (sans Smeargle or Sylveon) still has the ability to function well. A 3-mon BP team can't even get the matchup win vs stall after more testing; that's where it appears logical to stop. However I'm interested to hear why others would pick 2.
Baton Pass is so annoying that I've added roar + mold breaker mega Gyarados to the stall team I'm testing. It's that bad. The simple fix would be to not allow more then one/two pokemon to have BP per team. If you look at the stats you'll see that won't nerf any teams BUT full Baton Pass teams. I guess the question is whether that's what you want or not out of this. All I can say is this though, in the hands of a non retarded player BP is legitimately the most broken strategy I've faced so something definitely needs to be done. It doesn't take any thought or skill, you lead with Scolipede, BP to Sylveon/Mr. Mime if it's a special attacker and Iron Defense if it's a physical attacker you're against ._.
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This is the exact kind of thinking that is needed in order to maintain a balanced tier. You are absolutely correct that Baton Pass is beatable in a number of different ways, and not all of them STRICTLY beat Baton Pass. The key point here is the "whilst still remaining viable against everything else." Because Baton Pass is so incredibly different in both its functionality, and its style than literally every other strategy, Pokemon and specific moves that beat it often have to be run just to beat it. Which brings up the main problem:
Baton Pass has a ridiculous number of auto-win and auto-loss match-ups. While every style of play will have some match-ups that it will virtually auto-win or auto-lose, Baton Pass has an absolutely ridiculous amount. Certain moves give it 0% chance to win a game (such as random haze users), yet at the same time, not every team can run one of these moves without losing a significant amount of relevance vs. the other styles of play in the tier. Yes, some teams can beat Baton Pass simply through out-predicting them, but this is not nearly always the case, because of what I mentioned earlier about it being different in its functionality.
While Baton Pass IS a completely viable play style (similar to full stall or hazards hyper offense), it is not a healthy one for the game. The key difference between it and virtually every other kind of style out there, is the fact that most matchups are not nearly as skill based as they are pre-determined by the kind of team you are running. Baton Pass is therefore a style which gains higher win % based on "luck of the draw" based on what KINDS of teams you get matched up against. You may auto-win vs stall, or auto-lose if their Quagsire has Haze.
Overall I am NOT saying that Baton Pass is a broken or over-powered play-style, I am saying that it is an unhealthy play-style, and for that reason, needs to have some change to it to keep it from having that kind of a negative impact on the OU meta-game. It is stupidly easy to beat, (in fact way too easy), but in order for this to be true, you must give up a vital team slot to make sure a Pokemon has an auto-win move against the style. If not, you may be 6-0d even if you play 10x better than them.
Overall, Baton Pass chain nerfing is quite simple:
You either eliminate Speed Boost + Baton Pass, or you limit the number of Pokemon per team with Baton Pass to 2 or 3. You do NOT need to blanket ban it.
I can get on board with limiting Baton Pass to 3 users per team. That way it's nerfed, which is the point of this discussion, but still usable & not completely matchup reliant. I still think Magic Bounce is a issue here though, a big part of stopping chains from building is Taunting or phazing them out. The 3 users will now be Scolipede/Espeon/something else. But 3 users can be tested to see if it makes it more manageable.
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