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That would require changing a game mechanic entirely. . .
That's not going to happen, I can tell you that now. You just limit the number of 'mons that can carry it.
It's not about not seeing what's coming. You should always know what's gonna happen. It's that at the team preview, you are put at a disadvantage that you can't work around without relying on luck.
I run Haze on Quag, so it works, but that's because he is on my stall team. If I was to put him on my HO team, he would break all momentum that team thinks of having.
If it kills momentum, then it's deadweight on the team and is useless anywhere else. Haze just takes a move slot he could use to otherwise cover some ground.
For probably the 30th time on this forum, no one is saying it is an impenetrable strategy, but it is definitely over-centralizing the meta when it makes people fear it so much to where they need to carry an abstract Pokemon moveset.
That's what happened with mKanga, and we all know what happened to her.
(from my understanding) Isn't that why stuff is banned from OU in the first place? Because the entire OU metagame is incapable of handling it and it could only be dealt with by using specific niche counters? Take Mega Kang for instance. Sure there are counters, but they are not useful for anything other than stopping that specific threat 95% of the time, which can be deemed over-centralizing. Because we all know if everyone were to start using prankster sabeleye, Mega-Kang would've been counterable by many more teams, but the problem is that not every team can viably add a member like that who is dead weight outside of countering that specific threat. However, just to answer most of your list of 'counters', just remember speed boosts so any status thing outside of Prankster odds is pretty much useless.
Prankster Taunt: Thundurus runs this sometimes I think, but then again what is stopping them from using that one attack move while hiding behind substitute.
Prankster Encore: Do you know what can even run this? Because now you do, and make an argument what any of these pokemon have that makes them warrant a teamspot. Sturdy+Metal Burst: You're joking right? Also, this completely fails if a sub is up, which it generally is before they begin their onslaught of attacks. Sash Mirror Coat/Counter: Ok, I know of two pokemon that generally run counter: Chansey, and Wobbufett. And if they are behind a sub, that move doesn't do help. Plus, they can just set up if you start Mirror Coat-ing repeatedly. Lastly, why would Chansey ever run Sash over something like eviolite? ghost type curse: Ok, let's run through ghost-types that have a reason at all to run curse: Harvest Trevennant. Gengar is frail enough without losing 50% of it's Health, and I don't know of many other ghost-types in OU. Destiny bond: If you are talking about priority D-Bond, then I have to say good luck using M-Banette in OU. Otherwise, they can just set up while you Destiny Bond away all 8pp. moldbreaker roar: I made a post a long time ago that explains why this doesn't work (like around page 35) circle throw/dtail: Doesn't work through subs, Dragon Tail is useless against Sylveon, and Circle throw isn't going to be doing enough damage to pokemon that resist it (ie: most of a BP chain members) to break subs twave hax: having to rely on hax to beat a playstyle shows it is broken roar/whirlwind: Magic Bounce, soundproof, and Ingrain multi-hit: These break subs, but after the defense boosts you will probably just barely break subs. Also, assuming you don't run Skill link, these are probably only hitting ~3 times and have imperfect accuracy which could put you in a sticky situation. haze: Ok, fine you've reset their status boosts. Now they just start their chain all over again. Or KO you with their severely inflated stats/Stored Power before you get the haze off (unless you use haze murkrow).
final gambit on certain pokes: Ok, now looking at that list name me a pokemon who would justifiably run Final Gambit (or actually, other than Lucario and Victini, has any reason to be in OU). ditto with sash: Doesn't work through subs, completely outclassed by scarf and leftovers Topsy Turvy: The only pokemon to learn this are Malamar, Smeargle, and Inkay. Malamar is terrible, Inkay isnt even fully evolved, and smeargle can learn pretty much every move in the game. psych up: very situational, you'd be better off just roaring the booster out. which btw you can't really do with BP. red card+sturdy: I have no words to respond to this one, that is probably the only one that is surefire to stop BP chains. That is, unless (1) They have reflected hazards to your side of the field (2) They just set up the chain again, which they very are capable of doing. counter set up i.e. dragon dance/Offensive pressure: This is probably the most reliable method, no one is denying that. Granted if you mispredict their lead you get kinda messed up from step one them to set up Defense boosts/subs which generally go faster than your D-Dance boosts attack.
Honestly, thank you for going thru this thoroughly.
Of course it depends on your current situation... Sub, no sub, what the match up is, ability, ect.
if you have a tactic that doesn't work with a sub up, then there should be no reason why you would let that fluffy lil cute plush bastard sit up there lol.
it'd be an advantage of your foe.
I Preferably like Volbeat. I use him to set up(tail glow/sub pass), counter set up, inflict status, i use him to shift momentum (i.e. encore a move that K.O.'d a poke and switch into a poke that resist the move). I'm not saying he's invincible, but he defiantly can throw a wrench in someone's game
People... I'm pretty sure we were past the, "Does BP need banned/nerfed," discussion and the, "are there counters for BP," discussion a long, LONG EFFING TIME AGO! So stop bringing it up! We already have a majority agreement on that, so let's move along to the next part of the discussion already! We are on page 75 for gods sake, and we still aren't unanimously on the third part of the discussion! So please, PLEASE stop bringing these things up! Let's keep the discussion moving forward, and discuss what the nerf should be, and if not, a ban. (Not supporting ban.) Also, I understand why changing the game mechanics is not considered a good thing, but if there was something like endless sleep mechanics in the game, would you keep them for the sake of not changing the mechanics, even though it wouldn't be at all fun to play?
People... I'm pretty sure we were past the, "Does BP need banned/nerfed," discussion and the, "are there counters for BP," discussion a long, LONG EFFING TIME AGO! So stop bringing it up! We already have a majority agreement on that, so let's move along to the next part of the discussion already! We are on page 75 for gods sake, and we still aren't unanimously on the third part of the discussion! So please, PLEASE stop bringing these things up! Let's keep the discussion moving forward, and discuss what the nerf should be, and if not, a ban. (Not supporting ban.) Also, I understand why changing the game mechanics is not considered a good thing, but if there was something like endless sleep mechanics in the game, would you keep them for the sake of not changing the mechanics, even though it wouldn't be at all fun to play?
We have got enough actually existent things to deal with now. However, something similar to "endless sleep" mechanics existed back in RBY. Pokemon stayed frozen permanently, which was not just unfun, but also game-breaking. In order to deal with the issue, we had the Freeze Clause back then as far as I know.
Having a Freeze Clause under such circumstances makes as much sense as banning Endless Battles. Current Sleep Clause, compared with it, seems like a fix for a non-issue, and although there is the consensus that it's a good rule to have, it's already stretching it a bit. A Baton Pass Clause should be disregarded as cherry-picking the mechanics of the game to remove all the unwanted elements.
I may be thinking this wrong, but wouldn't it be more a lot more complicated to ban anything related to Magic Bounce, mostly because of Mega Absol. I mean it is far more inferior than Espeon, but it still another Pokemon with Magic Bounce, that has access to Baton Pass. Anyways, as I've been watching this thread from the beginning, I think the best solution is indeed having a maximum of 3 baton passers on a team.
okay, since the point here is MAKING solutions to solve with the BatonPass, i think we should never ban it. I suggest the limit of baton pass of 1 per team. In this way, we could keep the balance somehow of the game while only having the baton pass limited. A team could still be functional with only one baton pass. Having two or three is wickedly insane, because every baton passer just keeps tanking damage. I say LIMIT to ONE(like YuGiOh xD)
Scolipied(Spell fail) uses substitute when he switches to Pinsir. Then passes the next turn. The outcome could have been the same. He (If it was the right replay) spammed BB to early(Imho) If he would have switched Talon into Scolipied it could have then spammed BB and if it passed to Espeon Espeon would still take a bigot damage and might have been in the range to play around and kill Espeon tho.(My memory is shit.and I'm not sure how many pokemon he had left at that point but I'm sure one could have finished off Espeon, tho Scol could still pass again so never mind). Would you really risk it getting Sub up tho. I'm not sure.if I would.
The solution is simple, ban Espeon on a team that is already carrying more another bp user and this wouldn't effect team building for the rest of the metagame. Lol it should work, and making a Baton pass team without Espeon would likely require.more skill and hope that your opponent doesn't have prankster taunt. Tho there could be something I'm not seeing. Or just flat out only allow One bp user per team. Even 2 users on one team is alittle overkill anyways an there are other ways you could.build your team to allow it to sweep without having to use two baton pass users. Thus allowing thing that would be pursuit trapped otherwise still the ability to escape.
Any ban that takes away Espeon is a terrible idea. It almost destroys baton pass all together. If you don't have Espeon, you need to have either Smeargle or Mr Mime as s replacement. Mr mime blocks sound moves like roar and has immunity to dragon tail, but can be blown away with whirlwind. Smeargle has ingrain, which makes it so someone cant force it out but its murdered with a combo of perish song and taunt. If you're feeling badass and decide to not run any of them, say hello to Roar-whores that setup endless hazards and keep forcing you out until you die. That isn't fun for anyone but the person that setup the hazards.
okay, since the point here is MAKING solutions to solve with the BatonPass, i think we should never ban it. I suggest the limit of baton pass of 1 per team. In this way, we could keep the balance somehow of the game while only having the baton pass limited. A team could still be functional with only one baton pass. Having two or three is wickedly insane, because every baton passer just keeps tanking damage. I say LIMIT to ONE(like YuGiOh xD)
This, I can answer with experience of using a Scolipede / Espeon core. It's really hard to pull off chain passes with those 2 Pokemon alone. Really, it comes to your other team member having to take out any threats that can easily stop your chain, and unlike a full baton pass team, or even a team of 5, there are far more stops to it. Sure, if you can pull it off, it's really hard to stop, but like I said, it's pretty hard to pull off, which makes it a barely viable strategy to use.
The only reason I support a maximum of 3 over 4 is because the fact that if we go with 4, and continue to find it overwhelming to go against, we're just going to have to go through the trouble to change it to 3. It's easier just to go straight to 3.
Any ban that takes away Espeon is a terrible idea. It almost destroys baton pass all together. If you don't have Espeon, you need to have either Smeargle or Mr Mime as s replacement. Mr mime blocks sound moves like roar and has immunity to dragon tail, but can be blown away with whirlwind. Smeargle has ingrain, which makes it so someone cant force it out but its murdered with a combo of perish song and taunt. If you're feeling badass and decide to not run any of them, say hello to Roar-whores that setup endless hazards and keep forcing you out until you die. That isn't fun for anyone but the person that setup the hazards.
No, I don't see why you'd need Espeon to Quick pass. The whole point is to end Baton pass chains, and Baton pass is rarely used anyways, plus it'd beat a flat out ban on baton pass or having to make a complex ban. It would reduce the viability of baton pass teams but not baton pass itself. I an in no way suggesting banning Espeon either, just not allowing it ti be on a team with another baton pass user. The only other reason besides Baton pass teams for Espeon is to set up screens anyways. Seriously if you need to pass this much stuff to another Pokemon, just build your team better. This is the most logical thing to do, because you can still make a successful baton pass team with 3-4 pokemon like people are suggesting should be the limit. Besides it's not like my ideas going to happen anyways :P
No, I don't see why you'd need Espeon to Quick pass. The whole point is to end Baton pass chains, and Baton pass is rarely used anyways, plus it'd beat a flat out ban on baton pass or having to make a complex ban. It would reduce the viability of baton pass teams but not baton pass itself. I an in no way suggesting banning Espeon either, just not allowing it ti be on a team with another baton pass user. The only other reason besides Baton pass teams for Espeon is to set up screens anyways. Seriously if you need to pass this much stuff to another Pokemon, just build your team better. This is the most logical thing to do, because you can still make a successful baton pass team with 3-4 pokemon like people are suggesting should be the limit. Besides it's not like my ideas going to happen anyways :P
But that's the thing I honestly don't believe you can unless you do something around the lines of this. Do almost anything else and Baton pass teams can still adapt fairly well unless a complex ban Is made. Or just ban Ingrain on smeargle but that would then make baton pass teams not used. Cap it and they will still find away to make their teams work and it could still centralize. Tho I guess your right.
But that's the thing I honestly don't believe you can unless you do something around the lines of this. Do almost anything else and Baton pass teams can still adapt fairly well unless a complex ban Is made. Or just ban Ingrain on smeargle but that would then make baton pass teams not used. Cap it and they will still find away to make their teams work and it could still centralize. Tho I guess your right.
I'm personally sticking to my guns that the "complex" ban of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce/Absolite is the way to go. It forces them to go without either Scolipede or Espeon. Without Scolipede, they build up their boosts much slower and can be more easily muscled through as the agility boosters are overall frail and their defense boosters are felled by strong special attacks. Without Espeon or Mega Absol, hazards and status can be more easily spread, and taunts and phazing are easier as well. All they have then is Smeargle, and he's easy enough to power through, even for stall teams.
I'm personally sticking to my guns that the "complex" ban of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce/Absolite is the way to go. It forces them to go without either Scolipede or Espeon. Without Scolipede, they build up their boosts much slower and can be more easily muscled through as the agility boosters are overall frail and their defense boosters are felled by strong special attacks. Without Espeon or Mega Absol, hazards and status can be more easily spread, and taunts and phazing are easier as well. All they have then is Smeargle, and he's easy enough to power through, even for stall teams.
The problem with a complex ban of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce is that it still leaves the door open to a Zapdos+Espeon BP Abuse core. Zapdos is underrated in this meta, and he can easily set-up Agility boosts on a lot of things in OU.
The problem with a complex ban of Speed Boost + Magic Bounce is that it still leaves the door open to a Zapdos+Espeon BP Abuse core. Zapdos is underrated in this meta, and he can easily set-up Agility boosts on a lot of things in OU.
It's not just the speed boosts though. The thing that makes Scolipede broken (in relation to Baton Pass) is it's ability to use Iron Defense. The 2+ Defense bonus stops Espeon from being destroyed by priority users like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir. The two aren't really comparable.
I said this before in one of my earlier posts, but I think a complex ban is necessary, and so I'm going to also voice my support for a ban on Magic Bounce + Speed Boost.
Oh boy I finally got around to look at the bp thread, and oh my goodness its huge. Bp is a very complicated thing to deal with, and i don't know what could be a good way of dealing with this strategy without braking it completely. Yes, I feel like bp is a legit strategy that takes some level of skill to pull off.
Yes it is extremely powerful (and pretty brilliant if you think about it Koodos to the guy who figured this thing out) and hard to beat especially if you aren't prepared for it, but doesn't that go with everything else. In 5th gen if you weren't prepared for rain you probably lost a good amount of your games. This gen if you aren't prepared for thunderous your probably going to lose a lot of games too. I don't see how this strategy is being treated differently. (Sorry for giant paragraphs.)
However, I have had a lot of bp experience and mainly use a balanced team, so i can see where some of you guys are coming from. A lot of these games end up becoming 50/50 toss ups as my mawile desperately tries to blow up there chain and there vaporeon tries to set up. It usually comes down to if i could kill the vaporeon before it sets up its defenses boost. Although this is my fault as I am still using a team before bp got real big, so it doesn't have much answers for it.
I do believe that baton pass has lots of counters in any hard special hitter can obliterate it pretty easily, talon flame, pinser, haze, and hard hitting dark types like bisharp and tyranitar.
It is said that Baton Pass chains exacerbate the match-up component of the game, to the point where you either have a full counter to the strategy (i.e. a Pokémon like Sableye) or you're doomed to lose to it, unless a lucky crit occurs when the opponent isn't behind a Substitute.
What you are saying is true tho. If this is enough to call it too powerful and unhealthy for the meta game then i feel like it should get a cap and not banning of bp outright on certain pokes.
If i were to say where i could put the cap at would probably be 4 pokemon. I like this because you can still run a strong bp core, but you leave yourself more open to more pokemon.
If you choose Scolepede/Espeon/Smeargle/Vaporeon you still have a strong bp core, but now you get wrecked by thunderous, so limiting it to 4 we don't cripple bp to the point of it being non-usuable, but now it isn't broken well at least in my opinion.
Oh boy I finally got around to look at the bp thread, and oh my goodness its huge. Bp is a very complicated thing to deal with, and i don't know what could be a good way of dealing with this strategy without braking it completely. Yes, I feel like bp is a legit strategy that takes some level of skill to pull off.
Yes it is extremely powerful (and pretty brilliant if you think about it Koodos to the guy who figured this thing out) and hard to beat especially if you aren't prepared for it, but doesn't that go with everything else. In 5th gen if you weren't prepared for rain you probably lost a good amount of your games. This gen if you aren't prepared for thunderous your probably going to lose a lot of games too. I don't see how this strategy is being treated differently. (Sorry for giant paragraphs.)
However, I have had a lot of bp experience and mainly use a balanced team, so i can see where some of you guys are coming from. A lot of these games end up becoming 50/50 toss ups as my mawile desperately tries to blow up there chain and there vaporeon tries to set up. It usually comes down to if i could kill the vaporeon before it sets up its defenses boost. Although this is my fault as I am still using a team before bp got real big, so it doesn't have much answers for it.
I do believe that baton pass has lots of counters in any hard special hitter can obliterate it pretty easily, talon flame, pinser, haze, and hard hitting dark types like bisharp and tyranitar.
If i were to say where i could put the cap at would probably be 4 pokemon. I like this because you can still run a strong bp core, but you leave yourself more open to more pokemon.
If you choose Scolepede/Espeon/Smeargle/Vaporeon you still have a strong bp core, but now you get wrecked by thunderous, so limiting it to 4 we don't cripple bp to the point of it being non-usuable, but now it isn't broken well at least in my opinion.
Okay, first thing, would you be able to define what a 'legit' strategy is?
Secondly, you make a comparison between Rain and BP teams. The difference between is that whilst Rain could easily stopped by other weather setters or some specific Pokemon such as Ferrothorn (I think), there is no true counter for Baton Pass teams, and the ones that do work are way to specific to be used against non-Baton Pass teams. No comparison there, I'm afraid.
Third, your 'counters' that you mention have already been discussed and proven to be defunct in terms of stopping BP teams (PM me if you want the full list of re, I won't waste space writing it here). We passed that stage a while ago.
Fourthly, are you suggesting that everyone should run Thundurus just to stop a BP team with 4 members? We've been trying to think of a solution that stops Baton Pass being overcentralizing, and now you're saying we have to run a specific Pokemon to stop it? That just doesn't make sense.
Please read the rest of the thread before posting next time.
I tried baton pass for 6 matches. That's all it took for me to realize how fucking broken it is, it's unbelievable. While I did lose two matches purely thanks to crits, it's definitely not healthy for the metagame. And I can see how nerfing it to 4 baton passers per team won't solve the problem either. I used a team of Scolipede/Smeargle/Mr. Mime/Espeon/Vaporeon/Sylveon, and the only Pokemon I used frequently were Scolipede, Espeon and Sylveon. Vaporeon was a back-up Def booster with Acid Armor, Smeargle only has Spore/Encore/Ingrain/BP and doesn't really do much except for the extra 6% recovery from Ingrain, and Mr. Mime is only there to pass Calm Minds which Espeon can set itself. And for the record, I only used Sylveon in case there were Dark-types who were immune to Sylveon's Stored Power.
I can definitely see it working without Smeargle, Mr. Mime, or Vaporeon. That leaves only 3 baton passers for the chain to work.
The thing is also that people get called unskilled when fighting baton pass teams. If you don't have the right pokemon out you lose. People were calling one player unskilled because he didn't switch in pinsir, but If he did and they substituted there still wouldn't have been much they could have done. That shows you how much of a problem it is.
Okay, first thing, would you be able to define what a 'legit' strategy is?
Secondly, you make a comparison between Rain and BP teams. The difference between is that whilst Rain could easily stopped by other weather setters or some specific Pokemon such as Ferrothorn (I think), there is no true counter for Baton Pass teams, and the ones that do work are way to specific to be used against non-Baton Pass teams. No comparison there, I'm afraid.
Third, your 'counters' that you mention have already been discussed and proven to be defunct in terms of stopping BP teams (PM me if you want the full list of re, I won't waste space writing it here). We passed that stage a while ago.
Fourthly, are you suggesting that everyone should run Thundurus just to stop a BP team with 4 members? We've been trying to think of a solution that stops Baton Pass being over centralizing, and now you're saying we have to run a specific Pokemon to stop it? That just doesn't make sense.
Please read the rest of the thread before posting next time.
I respect your complaints to my argument, and sorry if i was being very general about my arguments. I also didn't read all of the 75 pages of this thread. I suppose i am not that dedicated to this as you are. However, with my last statement about 4 baton passers i didn't want it to come off as thundurus being the only counter. I just simply stated a pokemon that would do well at the top of my head.
I believe that baton can not function well at all under 4 passers. Like you said we are trying to find a way for baton pass to not become over centralizing, but if we only have 3 pokemon with bp then everyone who uses bp would just run the same three pokemon instead Espeon, Scolepede, and Sylveon. Aren't we trying to promote diversity in team building. With 4 passers you could get more creative with the pokemon you would want to use.
With only three pokemon the chain could get broken too easily and things like t-tar and bisharp will walk all over it. I feel like 4 cap is the best way to deal with it, because you can have a strong baton core still making it usuable, but it also allows it to be broken easier.
Also legit strategy = legit strategy XD (i mean i feel it is competitive.)
The solution is simple, ban Espeon on a team that is already carrying more another bp user and this wouldn't effect team building for the rest of the metagame. Lol it should work, and making a Baton pass team without Espeon would likely require.more skill and hope that your opponent doesn't have prankster taunt.
What he is basically saying is that we ban Espeon (and also Absolite, if necessary) from being on team's with more than 2 baton passers. So the clause would say something like "Espeon/Absolite is banned from teams with 2 or more pokemon with the move baton pass".This clause, along with the Ingrain + BP ban, would make baton pass teams vulnerable to phazing/taunt which would make them easier to deal with.
The reason for banning Espeon instead of Scolipede is because of the fact that Espeon not only has magic bounce to anti-counter almost everything that used to be viable to counter Baton Pass in past gens like phazing and taunt, but it also has a movepool of Calm Mind, Stored Power, Substitute, Dazzling Gleam for neutral coverage, and, to top it off Baton Pass. Without Espeon (and the Ingrain + BP ban), Scolipede is much more manageable to deal with. Honestly, the only hole I think this doesn't close is Zapdos + Espeon antics but that is a whole other situation entirely.
Anyways, if there is something that I am missing then please inform me, and sorry if my post sounds stupid or anything.
It's not just the speed boosts though. The thing that makes Scolipede broken (in relation to Baton Pass) is it's ability to use Iron Defense. The 2+ Defense bonus stops Espeon from being destroyed by priority users like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir. The two aren't really comparable.
I said this before in one of my earlier posts, but I think a complex ban is necessary, and so I'm going to also voice my support for a ban on Magic Bounce + Speed Boost.
Because Dragontail doesn't exist.
As stated, since we are not trying to kill baton pass teams this would still make it much easier to handle. Plus Zapados Can be Whirl winded. Even if they still switch in Espeon on Roar/Whirl wind you get switched out, but Espeon isn't hard to counter.
I vote simply for a maximum of three BP'ers per team. You can still have the ultra-strong core of Scolipede/Espeon/Sylveon, but all your supporting teammates can no longer continue the chain. It limits your support of the core basically, doesn't affect quickpass, drypass, or non-pass strategies, and leaves BP chains still usable. IMO, it seems like the best solution. We could also try a limit of 4 if 3 is too little. (I doubt it though.)
Ermagherd... we. are. passed that. Stop bringing up counters, because at least 75% of them don't reliably work, and (probably) all of them have been discussed.
I vote simply for a maximum of three BP'ers per team. You can still have the ultra-strong core of Scolipede/Espeon/Sylveon, but all your supporting teammates can no longer continue the chain. It limits your support of the core basically, doesn't affect quickpass, drypass, or non-pass strategies, and leaves BP chains still usable. IMO, it seems like the best solution. We could also try a limit of 4 if 3 is too little. (I doubt it though.)
Edit:
Ermagherd... we. are. passed that. Stop bringing up counters, because at least 75% of them don't reliably work, and (probably) all of them have been discussed.
Have we ever discussed taunt + s-toss deo-d? s-toss allows it to outduel most BP users, most notably espeon, and taunt allows it to immediately threaten everyone else anyway due to bypassing everything but magic bounce. Resisting stored power and being able to take hyper voices somewhat well is also pretty notable.
You could try banning baton pass and substitute on the same pokemon. That way slower passer will get hit and the pokemon will always be susceptible to clear smog even espeon because it's a damaging move
