Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[Eievui-Nymphia]

A BP teams is not broken because they have checks and counters in the metagame and can put a offensive pressure. They are more uncompetitive because if you didn't check the BP in the first turns, you lose 6-0.

The only thing that pushed BP to be uncompetitive is Speed Boost (and specially Scolipede) and Magic Bounce Espeon.

My proposed nerf (because there has been arguments of being "uncompetitive") is:
-Banning Baton Pass + Speed Boost. The combination made Blaziken uncompetitive in Gen VI and is making uncompetitive on Scolipede in BP teams. No more Speed passing while using Protect or Iron Defense. You ahve to use Agility to pass speed.
-Banning Stored Power + Baton Pass. No source of 300-400 BP move in your disposal. We have enough with 90 BP Psychic.

And my favourite:
-Ban Speed Boost + Baton Pass and Magic Bounce + Baton Pass in the same team. You can use BP Espeon alone. You can use BP Scolipede alone. You can't use them together.

Banning Sppedd Boost + Baton Pass only affects Ninjask, which is weak. Banning Magic Bounce + Baton pass afects MAbsol, who even though it have to actually Mega evolve, does a great job in BP teams.

I don't suggest limiting to 3 the number of BP users because... it makes BP 100% unviable. What we are supposed to want is that the non-BP teams has reliable ways to deal a BP teams without changing into very specific users.

 

[Jukain]

Jukain also said literally (in one of those replays even) that he was collecting replays so they could ban Baton Pass. Obviously he's not going to post replays where he's using Baton Pass and gets his ass kicked, because he wants Baton Pass teams gone. Basically you can take those replays with a grain of salt, as they focus on the strengths but don't show the weaknesses of Baton Pass.

I didn't post replays of losing because the team went 15-1...the one loss against a Haze Quagsire stall team. And there's nothing these players with rather standard teams could have done, irregardless of "skill level".

 

[BrellowBran]

Ok, so let's repeat what I've already said. I support the fact that with only 3 BP users, BP playstyle is NO LONGER VIABLE
Let's take a closer look at your propositions, arguing a little bit more than in my first post (and I'm also interested in what you meant by Clericness as Sylveon's movepool is hyper voice-CM-Sub-BP(-Stored power))
Scolipede+Espeon+Sylveon : if Aegislash runs Iron Head or Flash Cannon, you can't do much against him. Bisharp can win if you misplay, but generally Sylveon is enough to check him. Charizard-X can DD on your Scolipede and make it an easy win if he plays well. Charizard-Y is very annoying, you can manage to stall him with Sylveon but that's hard. Deoxys-D can play around with seismic toss, however he usually runs a no-attack set with red card which can totally stop your strategy. Deoxys-S has some good match up with some sets and bad match up with others, but I don't know him very well so I can't say much. I think I don't have much to say about Thundurus-I. There are all S-rank mons and 60% of them can potentially beat this BP. If I take all the A-ranked, I think about 40% of the mons also have good match up against these only 3 BP users (more or less). You know what that means ? That your BP team isn't viable. That's all.
I can continue with the Scolipede+Espeon+Smeargle core : if you take a closer look, you'll see that a great number of common

threat can get through this core.
The same goes for Zapdos or Vaporeon, as the only one able to rack up Special Boost will be Sylveon, and a great special pressure will take him down.
You'll certainly argue that I didn't take the time to develop which mons can check Smeargle or Zapdos core, but the fact is that I really think Sylveon would be the best, and surely many people think so. If the best is not viable, why should the other ones be?

Now, I can still explain why Jukain' replays (those one) prove nothing (I've already said it before), but I hope you have enough skill to understand which mistakes made the opponent of BP lose (for the last replay, I really consider that it's not a BP broken victory, just look at the number of healthy mons in each team at the end of the battle). If you don't, I'll have to repost :(

Replay 1 (win vs Fly spam HO)
Replay 2 (win vs Fly spam offense)
Replay 3 (win vs Deo-D offense with Mega Manectric and Keldeo)

In the case you didn't understand it, I'm in favor of ALLOWING 4BP USERS per team. I can really understand why you're so eager to kill it and lower to 3 BP users, and if it can avoid some inappropriate measure like BP clause or ban Espeon/Scolipede I will advocate for it (because you have 3 mons left after all).

The combatants in replays 1 and 2 weren't very skilled. In replay 2, Johnbolton made horrible moves and could have won if he got his stuff together. In all honesty, Espeon and Scolipede is all you need for a baton pass team. Everything else is filler. One can easily win with 2.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113616585

 

[Jukain]

Ok, so let's repeat what I've already said. I support the fact that with only 3 BP users, BP playstyle is NO LONGER VIABLE
Let's take a closer look at your propositions, arguing a little bit more than in my first post (and I'm also interested in what you meant by Clericness as Sylveon's movepool is hyper voice-CM-Sub-BP(-Stored power))
Scolipede+Espeon+Sylveon : if Aegislash runs Iron Head or Flash Cannon, you can't do much against him. Bisharp can win if you misplay, but generally Sylveon is enough to check him. Charizard-X can DD on your Scolipede and make it an easy win if he plays well. Charizard-Y is very annoying, you can manage to stall him with Sylveon but that's hard. Deoxys-D can play around with seismic toss, however he usually runs a no-attack set with red card which can totally stop your strategy. Deoxys-S has some good match up with some sets and bad match up with others, but I don't know him very well so I can't say much. I think I don't have much to say about Thundurus-I. There are all S-rank mons and 60% of them can potentially beat this BP. If I take all the A-ranked, I think about 40% of the mons also have good match up against these only 3 BP users (more or less). You know what that means ? That your BP team isn't viable. That's all.
I can continue with the Scolipede+Espeon+Smeargle core : if you take a closer look, you'll see that a great number of common

threat can get through this core.
The same goes for Zapdos or Vaporeon, as the only one able to rack up Special Boost will be Sylveon, and a great special pressure will take him down.
You'll certainly argue that I didn't take the time to develop which mons can check Smeargle or Zapdos core, but the fact is that I really think Sylveon would be the best, and surely many people think so. If the best is not viable, why should the other ones be?

Now, I can still explain why Jukain' replays (those one) prove nothing (I've already said it before), but I hope you have enough skill to understand which mistakes made the opponent of BP lose (for the last replay, I really consider that it's not a BP broken victory, just look at the number of healthy mons in each team at the end of the battle). If you don't, I'll have to repost :(

Replay 1 (win vs Fly spam HO)
Replay 2 (win vs Fly spam offense)
Replay 3 (win vs Deo-D offense with Mega Manectric and Keldeo)

In the case you didn't understand it, I'm in favor of ALLOWING 4BP USERS per team. I can really understand why you're so eager to kill it and lower to 3 BP users, and if it can avoid some inappropriate measure like BP clause or ban Espeon/Scolipede I will advocate for it (because you have 3 mons left after all).

You didn't even argue, and you're kidding if you thought there was skillful play because stuff died. I made a brainless chain, killed a couple things and lost it. I brought out Mega Aerodactyl and spammed attacks, and sacced Kyurem-B? That isn't skillful. Replay 2 is ass I'll admit, but there are no issues with Replay 1... Cheap wins with a couple sacs, there's no skill.

 

[ohgeedubs]

The thing about Punchshroom's proposal that bothered me is that it means that you can't say, "Baton Pass an Espeon facing Scizor to avoid being pursuit trapped, and go out to Zapdos - which happens to be a quickpass set." I just find that weird, along with some of the other arguments that have been made.

I think it's been established that Baton Pass + Ability doesn't solve the root problems; I really think nerfing baton pass to a few baton members is the least complex solution that to many people is also satisfactory.

 

[BrellowBran]

You didn't even argue, and you're kidding if you thought there was skillful play because stuff died. I made a brainless chain, killed a couple things and lost it. I brought out Mega Aerodactyl and spammed attacks, and sacced Kyurem-B? That isn't skillful. Replay 2 is ass I'll admit, but there are no issues with Replay 1... Cheap wins with a couple sacs, there's no skill.

Replay 1 is definitely ass. Right after Kyurem died, he should have send out mega pinsir and went for relentless agressive play. He was using neutral physical attacks on a Pokemon that naturally boost its defense -_- (it made me cringe). He clearly didn't know what he was doing. If he would have whipped out Mega-Pinsir and did a few sword dances right after Kyurems death, it would have been over for the BP team.

 

[Seiterman]

The thing about Punchshroom's proposal that bothered me is that it means that you can't say, "Baton Pass an Espeon facing Scizor to avoid being pursuit trapped, and go out to Zapdos - which happens to be a quickpass set." I just find that weird, along with some of the other arguments that have been made.

I think it's been established that Baton Pass + Ability doesn't solve the root problems; I really think nerfing baton pass to a few baton members is the least complex solution that to many people is also satisfactory.

That's way, way, way too unlikely a situation to worry about. Plus, the player in this hypothetical situation should have thought about that during teambuilding.

Punchshroom's Proposal is definitely the best-sounding plan I've heard thus far, and I'm all for it. It could limit teambuilding ever so slightly in super-rare situations like the one listed above, but it's totally avoidable in teambuilding and doesn't affect the vast majority of team archetypes.

I'm also totally okay with it killing the BP Playstyle. For those who'd argue about "variety in the metagame," refer to Chou Toshio's arguments during the SwagPlay discussion (I don't necessarily have the time to rifle through the old threads, but it basically came down to variety being an important aspect of competitive Pokemon in the average player's eyes, but not the most important thing.) I couldn't care less for the arguments that BP requires enough skill to be a legitimate playstyle, either, because it just doesn't. There's little prediction, little work in teambuilding and formulaic play all around.

It's like BP players play Competitive Pokemon for fundamentally different reasons than players of other playstyles. In my eyes, if I win a battle but didn't earn it, it might as well not be a win.

 

[Quick]

Replay 1 is definitely ass. Right after Kyurem died, he should have send out mega pinsir and went for relentless agressive play. He was using neutral physical attacks on a Pokemon that naturally boost its defense -_- (it made me cringe). He clearly didn't know what he was doing. If he would have whipped out Mega-Pinsir and did a few sword dances right after Kyurems death, it would have been over for the BP team.

It wasn't that bad tbh, he stayed in 2 turns where he shouldn't have without a doubt, but sometimes switching seems like a bad idea because you could let them get behind a sub. When you're outside or watching the battle after the fact those kind of things seem more obvious.

 

[Quick]

The combatants in replays 1 and 2 weren't very skilled. In replay 2, Johnbolton made horrible moves and could have won if he got his stuff together. In all honesty, Espeon and Scolipede is all you need for a baton pass team. Everything else is filler. One can easily win with 2.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-113616585

Those were some really bad/strange plays he made with bisharp.

 

[Impy]

I think we should avoid complex bans like the plague, in this case it isn't justified. It's kind of the entire POINT of magic bounce to do things like this. A three-BP cap would work just fine.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

What's not cool is if you bring a team that's not equipped to deal with the meta.

Now, *fetches megaphone*

AFTER HAVING READ THIS THREAD:
To those who believe BP is fine where it is:
I have concluded that:
.
I) BP chains are a competitive strategy.
II) BP chains are competitive for the wrong reasons:

• They make the same plays regardless of their Pilot.
• They make the same plays regardless of their Opponent.
• They make the same plays regardless of the current meta.
• They require specific counters a player would not use otherwise.
• Teams using these counters will not ladder as well as teams that don't. This means:

III) In a BP chain environment, a player's strategy determines their rank more than their skill level does.
IV) BP chains are an unbalanced strategy.


TL;DR: This thread is about how to handle BP, not whether to handle BP.

There are Pokemon you have to prepare for. . .
Then there's preparing for an entire team of 6.
Preparing for one Pokemon is easier than preparing for an ENTIRE team of 6.

The meta shouldn't consist of people using simple and easy to use strategies that put everyone without a counter at a disadvantage. If you didn't provide a couter for Tflame then you know better. But I'm sorry, there's no way to counter an entire team. . . That's just not possible.
Even haze Quag gets 2hko by Psychic and can do nothing in return but use haze and fire off sad excuses for scalds. I don't consider that a counter as much as it is a check.
You're not grasping the point that you shouldn't have to be required to carry a check. Haze quag is comfortable in a Stall or defensive team. You can't just fit him in on a HO team and expect to make it very far. You can argue Haze Gengar is would feel more at home on a HO team, but the fact you're using haze on a freaking Gengar is a clear reason alone to make you wonder whether this "Strategy" is healthy for the meta game. Wanna know why we never saw Haze Gengar in the past? Because it's fucking useless.

It's not a competitive strategy.
Being Competitive is when two people of equal opportunity to win go head to head to see who can out play the other.
When you enter a match and see you're automatically at a disadvantage that isn't considered competitive.

Although a bit extreme;

It's like going to a 5k and I bring a mo-ped or scooter and you have to run.

We both HAD a chance to win, but you're automatically at a disadvantage straight from the get go. You can't "Prepare" for that. You can "Prepare" for someone being faster than you and pushing through the best you can.
That's not competitive. And you can't begin to tell me it is. . .

 

[ohgeedubs]

That's way, way, way too unlikely a situation to worry about. Plus, the player in this hypothetical situation should have thought about that during teambuilding.

I actually don't think having two baton passers on the same team, and finding yourself in a situation where you want to baton pass out to another baton passer (say, celebi for momentum to a quick passer that you know you can set up with), is that contrived of a situation.

I'm saying that if that kind of clause is implemented, the player should think about that during teambuilding; but if it isn't, then it's never ever an issue, and I don't think that's a negligible benefit.

I think we should stick with the majority of mechanics that are possible in-game without directly altering them to encourage the development of strategies - novel, gimmicky or even bad - that are also possible in-game.

 

[Shoot For Zero]

Haze quag is comfortable in a Stall or defensive team. You can't just fit him in on a HO team and expect to make it very far. You can argue Haze Gengar is would feel more at home on a HO team, but the fact you're using haze on a freaking Gengar is a clear reason alone to make you wonder whether this "Strategy" is healthy for the meta game. Wanna know why we never saw Haze Gengar in the past? Because it's fucking useless.

This was the first 30 pages of the thread. When that strawman had burned up, they went to scarfed Taunters, then Mold Breaker Taunters (props to whoever tried that first). And, of course, a single Poke won't either check or counter an entire team, so the argument died there.

It's not a competitive strategy.
Being Competitive is when two people of equal opportunity to win go head to head to see who can out play the other.
When you enter a match and see you're automatically at a disadvantage that isn't considered competitive.

Although a bit extreme;

It's like going to a 5k and I bring a mo-ped or scooter and you have to run.

In a BP chain environment, OU is a scooter race. A player chooses to be at a disadvantage when they decide not to run a BP chain team. BP, being the only competitive strategy in OU right now, (stall has potential) overcentralizes the metagame and should therefore be nerfed. Otherwise OU would become 6-10 Pokes with 50-60% usage.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I'd like to post another great counter to Baton Pass teams:

Cloyster @ Lum Berry / Life Orb
Trait: Skill Link
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant / Naive / Naughty Nature

- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Hydro Pump / Ice Shard

Use Shell Smash twice in a row against Scolipede. After that, LO variants can easily OHKO your opponent's Scolipede no matter if it uses Iron Defense twice, Substitute + Iron Defense, Sub + Protect or whatever. However, there's a small problem: LO Cloyster is outsped and Spored by Smeargle. The choice between LO and Lum Berry is a bit difficult, since Lum Berry allows it to set up on Smeargle while Life Orb allows it to OHKO Scolipede, but I generally prefer Life Orb.

Here's how it fares:

Vaporeon - +4 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Vaporeon: 550-650 (118.5 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If Cloyster managed to set up two Shell Smashes against Scolipede and got past it, Vaporeon is outright OHKOed. Probably the biggest threat to Cloyster, especially if it has Acid Armor and Roar.
Espeon - Really doesn't threaten Cloyster at all, as +2 Icicle Spear OHKOes it without any problem.
Smeargle - If Cloyster has a Lum Berry, Smeargle can't Spore it, meaning Cloyster can easily get a free Shell Smash against it and destroy it with Icicle Spear.
Mr. Mime - lol (Life Orb variants OHKO even at +0)
Sylveon - +2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 470-560 (119.2 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Although Sylveon can OHKO it in return, it can't beat it since Cloyster does usually manage to obtain at least a free smash against Scoli or Smeargle.
Gliscor - lol. Free Shell Smash too
Ninjask - lol
Zapdos - loses against Cloyster if it managed to get a Shell Smash. Also, 0 Spe Zapdos is slower than Adamant Cloyster
Celebi - lol
Mega Absol - lol
Mega Scizor - It does give it some trouble even at +2 since it resists Icicle Spear and can take a Rock Blast. However, it can't do much to Cloyster either, so unless it has Agility, it loses.
Mega Mawile - Cloyster has problems with it if it doesn't have Hydro Pump, but in my opinion all Cloyster should have that move unless you have one other powerful Water-type attacker (Ice Shard is simply too weak and is only good against Baton Pass). +2 Hydro Pump usually OHKOes.

As I've said, Cloyster usually does very well against Baton Pass, but Lum Berry variants do have to be good at prediction against Scolipede.

Also, can we stop with the "Ban Baton Pass on Scolipede / Espeon" thing? You know what? I suggest we ban Dark Void on Darkrai, Sacred Fire on Ho-Oh, U-turn on Genesect, Geomancy on Xerneas, and then allow those Ubers in OU!

 

[WebBowser]

That's way, way, way too unlikely a situation to worry about. Plus, the player in this hypothetical situation should have thought about that during teambuilding.

Punchshroom's Proposal is definitely the best-sounding plan I've heard thus far, and I'm all for it. It could limit teambuilding ever so slightly in super-rare situations like the one listed above, but it's totally avoidable in teambuilding and doesn't affect the vast majority of team archetypes.

I'm also totally okay with it killing the BP Playstyle. For those who'd argue about "variety in the metagame," refer to Chou Toshio's arguments during the SwagPlay discussion (I don't necessarily have the time to rifle through the old threads, but it basically came down to variety being an important aspect of competitive Pokemon in the average player's eyes, but not the most important thing.) I couldn't care less for the arguments that BP requires enough skill to be a legitimate playstyle, either, because it just doesn't. There's little prediction, little work in teambuilding and formulaic play all around.

It's like BP players play Competitive Pokemon for fundamentally different reasons than players of other playstyles. In my eyes, if I win a battle but didn't earn it, it might as well not be a win.

BP passing to another BPer is hardly an unfathomable situation. For example, in UU I run vap and umbreon as my 2 wish-passers on the same team. When one gets worn down, I swap to the other one, use wish, use BP, and the other gets a free wish pass at little to no risk. This is hardly an OP strat, as the sender has to still take a hit, but it is a very good one that would be killed by Punchshroom's proposal.

 

[Falcon0408]

I'd like to post another great counter to Baton Pass teams:

Cloyster @ Lum Berry / Life Orb
Trait: Skill Link
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant / Naive / Naughty Nature

- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Hydro Pump / Ice Shard

Use Shell Smash twice in a row against Scolipede. After that, LO variants can easily OHKO your opponent's Scolipede no matter if it uses Iron Defense twice, Substitute + Iron Defense, Sub + Protect or whatever. However, there's a small problem: LO Cloyster is outsped and Spored by Smeargle. The choice between LO and Lum Berry is a bit difficult, since Lum Berry allows it to set up on Smeargle while Life Orb allows it to OHKO Scolipede, but I generally prefer Life Orb.

Here's how it fares:

Vaporeon - +4 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Vaporeon: 550-650 (118.5 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If Cloyster managed to set up two Shell Smashes against Scolipede and got past it, Vaporeon is outright OHKOed. Probably the biggest threat to Cloyster, especially if it has Acid Armor and Roar.
Espeon - Really doesn't threaten Cloyster at all, as +2 Icicle Spear OHKOes it without any problem.
Smeargle - If Cloyster has a Lum Berry, Smeargle can't Spore it, meaning Cloyster can easily get a free Shell Smash against it and destroy it with Icicle Spear.
Mr. Mime - lol (Life Orb variants OHKO even at +0)
Sylveon - +2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 470-560 (119.2 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Although Sylveon can OHKO it in return, it can't beat it since Cloyster does usually manage to obtain at least a free smash against Scoli or Smeargle.
Gliscor - lol. Free Shell Smash too
Ninjask - lol
Zapdos - loses against Cloyster if it managed to get a Shell Smash. Also, 0 Spe Zapdos is slower than Adamant Cloyster
Celebi - lol
Mega Absol - lol
Mega Scizor - It does give it some trouble even at +2 since it resists Icicle Spear and can take a Rock Blast. However, it can't do much to Cloyster either, so unless it has Agility, it loses.
Mega Mawile - Cloyster has problems with it if it doesn't have Hydro Pump, but in my opinion all Cloyster should have that move unless you have one other powerful Water-type attacker (Ice Shard is simply too weak and is only good against Baton Pass). +2 Hydro Pump usually OHKOes.

As I've said, Cloyster usually does very well against Baton Pass, but Lum Berry variants do have to be good at prediction against Scolipede.

Also, can we stop with the "Ban Baton Pass on Scolipede / Espeon" thing? You know what? I suggest we ban Dark Void on Darkrai, Sacred Fire on Ho-Oh, U-turn on Genesect, Geomancy on Xerneas, and then allow those Ubers in OU!

That's great, except that Cloyster is garbage this gen and so comes in the "obscure counters that lose to everything else" group. It's also not a counter at all, since it can quite easily lose to Vaporeon. You can't assume that they lead with Scolipede every time. If a good player sees Cloyster, they will lead with Vaporeon and either get to +6 or just straight up Roar you when you start boosting. Most you can do is get that initial hit off, nice <50%.

 

[BrellowBran]

I'd like to post another great counter to Baton Pass teams:

Cloyster @ Lum Berry / Life Orb
Trait: Skill Link
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant / Naive / Naughty Nature

- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Hydro Pump / Ice Shard

Use Shell Smash twice in a row against Scolipede. After that, LO variants can easily OHKO your opponent's Scolipede no matter if it uses Iron Defense twice, Substitute + Iron Defense, Sub + Protect or whatever. However, there's a small problem: LO Cloyster is outsped and Spored by Smeargle. The choice between LO and Lum Berry is a bit difficult, since Lum Berry allows it to set up on Smeargle while Life Orb allows it to OHKO Scolipede, but I generally prefer Life Orb.

Here's how it fares:

Vaporeon - +4 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Vaporeon: 550-650 (118.5 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If Cloyster managed to set up two Shell Smashes against Scolipede and got past it, Vaporeon is outright OHKOed. Probably the biggest threat to Cloyster, especially if it has Acid Armor and Roar.
Espeon - Really doesn't threaten Cloyster at all, as +2 Icicle Spear OHKOes it without any problem.
Smeargle - If Cloyster has a Lum Berry, Smeargle can't Spore it, meaning Cloyster can easily get a free Shell Smash against it and destroy it with Icicle Spear.
Mr. Mime - lol (Life Orb variants OHKO even at +0)
Sylveon - +2 252 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 470-560 (119.2 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Although Sylveon can OHKO it in return, it can't beat it since Cloyster does usually manage to obtain at least a free smash against Scoli or Smeargle.
Gliscor - lol. Free Shell Smash too
Ninjask - lol
Zapdos - loses against Cloyster if it managed to get a Shell Smash. Also, 0 Spe Zapdos is slower than Adamant Cloyster
Celebi - lol
Mega Absol - lol
Mega Scizor - It does give it some trouble even at +2 since it resists Icicle Spear and can take a Rock Blast. However, it can't do much to Cloyster either, so unless it has Agility, it loses.
Mega Mawile - Cloyster has problems with it if it doesn't have Hydro Pump, but in my opinion all Cloyster should have that move unless you have one other powerful Water-type attacker (Ice Shard is simply too weak and is only good against Baton Pass). +2 Hydro Pump usually OHKOes.

As I've said, Cloyster usually does very well against Baton Pass, but Lum Berry variants do have to be good at prediction against Scolipede.

Also, can we stop with the "Ban Baton Pass on Scolipede / Espeon" thing? You know what? I suggest we ban Dark Void on Darkrai, Sacred Fire on Ho-Oh, U-turn on Genesect, Geomancy on Xerneas, and then allow those Ubers in OU!

I usually have a tougher time with Mega-Heracross than with Cloyster. If I'm running a "half baton/half Regular OU" team, I can obliterate Cloyser with a simple sucker punch after it shell smashes.

Mega-Heracross
- Armthrust (Counters Smeargle)
- Bullet Seed (Counters Vaporeon)
- Rockblast (Counters flying/ Scolipede)
- Pinmissle (Counters Espeon)

As you can see, Mega-Heracross counters all three possible starters at the same time. The only thing that can scares it is fairy types. If you're going for the multi-hit method, Heracross is your guy.

 

[WebBowser]

I usually have a tougher time with Mega-Heracross than with Cloyster. If I'm running a "half baton/half Regular OU" team, I can obliterate Cloyser with a simple sucker punch after it shell smashes.

Mega-Heracross
- Armthrust (Counters Smeargle)
- Bullet Seed (Counters Vaporeon)
- Rockblast (Counters flying/ Scolipede)
- Pinmissle (Counters Espeon)

As you can see, Mega-Heracross counters all three possible starters at the same time. The only thing that can scares it is fairy types. If you're going for the multi-hit method, Heracross is your guy.

Tested this one myself. +2 scolo can live a rock blast easily. We can guarentee this +2 even because mega-hera is slow af, making it easy for scolo to achieve his iron defense. Once at +2, it's all downhill for our poor mega-hera.

 

[acestriker19]

Okay I've been keeping tabs on this thread since the beginning I have to say I dislike punchshroom's proposal as it doesn't really need to be this complex a ban ,a 2 passer ban does effectively the same thing: kill baton pass which is an understandable arguement. I don't think three mon quickpass is a play style that is valuable enough to create a ban as complex as punch proposes.

I would like to know if 3 mon pass nerfs baton pass more than speed boost + magic bounce + baton pass ban. As there have been plenty of arguments stating that 3 mon pass can still work well. I would do some tests myself as well when I can get on SD!

To anyone proposing counters the real reason counters aren't being considered is because Baton Pass can obtain the advantage of momentum incredibly easily so counters must be able to deal with all members of baton pass as they continue to boost against you which leaves counters to only priority taunt, really well done counter boosting or haze all of which cannot find there way onto all teams without becoming less competitive v. Regular teams.

 

[metrichours]

So it sounds like you are trying to compare Scolipede with Drifblim, which is a really, really awful comparison. Drifblim's only niche in BP is his ability to boost both defenses at the same time, which is not as awesome as you would think it is. As much as I support a scolo ban atm, I don't think your anecdote is the greatest piece of evidence.

Not a comparison of scollipede to drifblim just an example of how much scollipede brings to the team as my team had many of the components of a typical BP team. You simply missed the point and all the point was that as someone who has used BP teams and enjoys them I find scollipede to be the OP aspect of the team and acknowledge the need for a ban of scollipede(my ideal solution) or some form of BP nerf. I know that drifblim is NOT comparable to scollipede because I mean c'mon, drifblim? In OU? It can work but so does any pokemon under the right circumstances and is besides the point and all my point was was my opinion that scollipede is what pushes BP chains over the edge.

 

[WebBowser]

Not a comparison of scollipede to drifblim just an example of how much scollipede brings to the team as my team had many of the components of a typical BP team. You simply missed the point and all the point was that as someone who has used BP teams and enjoys them I find scollipede to be the OP aspect of the team and acknowledge the need for a ban of scollipede(my ideal solution) or some form of BP nerf. I know that drifblim is NOT comparable to scollipede because I mean c'mon, drifblim? In OU? It can work but so does any pokemon under the right circumstances and is besides the point and all my point was was my opinion that scollipede is what pushes BP chains over the edge.

Here's the thing, the main point of your anecdote is how much your team improved when you replaced drifblim with scollipede, which begs the question, is scolli good? Or is Drifblim just simply bad? That is why I called your post into question.

 

[Galladium]

If we're thinking about setting a limit of 3 or 4 Baton Passers per team, we'll need to do a Suspect test, not just have everyone sharing replays.

Anyway, I think Punchshroom's proposal is the way to go, because contrary to what most people think, a Baton Pass Clause does not make Baton Pass completely unviable. Last gen, when there much less BP chain teams around, what a lot of people did was use a Pokemon like Ninjask to Baton Pass it's boosted stats to a teammate who was unable to do so by themselves.

A Baton Pass Clause would get rid of full Baton Pass teams from the meta, but still enable teams to use Baton Pass in the manner described above. This seems a much simpler solution than doing a Suspect test to determine if 4 Baton Passers on a team is still broken.

 

[Colonel M]

It kills the strat of BP, which is passing around boosts to counters that are not inherently strong until you find a breaking point.
Having 3 passers is a completely different strategy which is a quicker, less concentrated way of passing multiple boosts to a sweeper.
What I am saying is that limiting the passers does not fix the problem. It just creates a new one.

No, it really does not. Allow me to explain.

A team of Scolipede / Espeon / Smeargle / Vaporeon / Pick 2 poisons has issues of having ways of reliably stopping certain strategies. For example, notice this team composition has Ingrain; however, Calm Mind is limited to one Pokemon each. The best strategy against this type of team is to use heavy special attacks and just keep going.

If only three were allowed it's even better.

The strategy itself does not suddenly break when we limit Baton Pass. It forces the Baton Pass player to consciously think harder about using the strategy and using it effectively. A team full of Baton Pass Pokemon really has little skill concept about it - $20 says I can get my 15 year old sister, who's never really played Pokemon, to master the strategy in less than an hour and with a picture diagram.

I was referring to gen 5, sorry. In gen 6 it gained the ability to BP and it was even more broken, of course.

Scolipede always had access to Baton Pass. In Generation 6 it gained a passive access to boosting its Speed through Speed Boost.

I am not a top tier competitor / tournament player either, so really thank you for the backstory to it. I never really heard anything about it in (toward the end of) gen 5, so I didn't even consider it a threat then.
BP has gotten better additions, yeah.
So has HO, stall, Prankster, however far you want to go.
As Pokemon stays around longer, more strats will get more viable users and more strats will become viable or fall out of viability.
As far as BP goes, it is a completely different type of strat than any other. With the ease of boosts now, it is broken because now both defense, attack boosts, and subs can be passed WITH speed. When only speed or attack can be passed, the recipient can be broken with strong attacks. When only defense is passed, the recipient can be played around; it can't switch before the opponent does and just send in an appropriate counter/get another boost.
Scolipede provides broken passable boosts from just 1 pokemon in less time and less slots than having two to do the same thing. Espeon easily takes away counters and at the same time uses stored power, the usual end-game of BP. The problem with these two pokes is that they do so much for just one slot. Without them/with nerfing them specifically, BP is counter-able just like any other strat.

The problem is banning a combination of Scolipede and Espeon does, in fact, neuter the Baton Pass strategy and completely works against your argument.

Also HO / Stall / Prankster getting better is irrelevant to the situation. Even with these getting better, there are very few good Pokemon that are on these teams and still can somewhat crumble Baton Pass. It is a strategy that has very little chance of losing provided that the Baton Pass user has slight competence and doesn't really rely on heavy skill to use. I mean, what's skillful about Baton Pass anyway? Just managing a few threats at worst is about all that can really be thought of. Teams have to go through serious re-adjustments to stop a full Baton Pass team. All Baton Pass teams have to really use are the following:

Scolipede / Smeargle / Vaporeon / Sylveon / Espeon / Mr. Mime

And maybe deviate slightly from the mold.

To anyone that states that limiting Baton Pass ruins the strategy - you couldn't be further from the truth. The only difference is you have to actually utilize a strategy with limited Baton Pass teams.

 

[Flamebot]

Replay 1 is definitely ass. Right after Kyurem died, he should have send out mega pinsir and went for relentless agressive play. He was using neutral physical attacks on a Pokemon that naturally boost its defense -_- (it made me cringe). He clearly didn't know what he was doing. If he would have whipped out Mega-Pinsir and did a few sword dances right after Kyurems death, it would have been over for the BP team.

Scolipied(Spell fail) uses substitute when he switches to Pinsir. Then passes the next turn. The outcome could have been the same. He (If it was the right replay) spammed BB to early(Imho) If he would have switched Talon into Scolipied it could have then spammed BB and if it passed to Espeon Espeon would still take a bigot damage and might have been in the range to play around and kill Espeon tho.(My memory is shit.and I'm not sure how many pokemon he had left at that point but I'm sure one could have finished off Espeon, tho Scol could still pass again so never mind). Would you really risk it getting Sub up tho. I'm not sure.if I would.

The solution is simple, ban Espeon on a team that is already carrying more another bp user and this wouldn't effect team building for the rest of the metagame. Lol it should work, and making a Baton pass team without Espeon would likely require.more skill and hope that your opponent doesn't have prankster taunt. Tho there could be something I'm not seeing. Or just flat out only allow One bp user per team. Even 2 users on one team is alittle overkill anyways an there are other ways you could.build your team to allow it to sweep without having to use two baton pass users. Thus allowing thing that would be pursuit trapped otherwise still the ability to escape.

 

[RevengeOfHiddenPower]

The three aspects I look for in a Pokemon metagame are familiarity, competitiveness, and fun.

• Familiarity: How close is the metagame to cartridge play? In other words, if some hypothetical newbie is used to 6v6 battles with friends, how quickly can they adjust to competitive play? This includes accuracy to game mechanics as well as an easily understandable rule set.
  
• Competitiveness: How often, when both players have reasonably competitive teams, will the better player win a match? This includes minimizing the effect of luck on the battle, such as banning evasion boosts. It also includes multiple styles of play being competitively viable.
  
• Fun: Is the metagame fun and interesting to play? This is probably the most important aspect of a metagame. DP OU, when it was dominated by Garchomp, is one example of a metagame that was not fun, since it was massively overcentralizing. The same applies to Mega Kangaskhan and, to a lesser extent, Baton Pass in ADV and XY.

Punchshroom's proposal violates the first bullet point, as it changes game mechanics to block access to Baton Pass in certain situations. It also arguably violates the second by effectively removing Baton Pass from play. We are not looking to outright ban Baton Pass on its own or Baton Pass chains. BP should remain viable without being overcentralizing.

A ban of "more than X Pokémon on a team may not have Baton Pass", in addition to having precedent in ADV, fulfills the stated purpose of nerfing BP without removing it as well as keeping the metagame familiar, competitive, and fun. A cap is the best option.

Edit: Banning Espeon + 2BP serves no real purpose, being a complex ban where a simple one can suffice.