CAP 18 CAP 18 - Part 9 - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Scoopapa]

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 215-253 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 195-231 (64.5 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 186-219 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 169-200 (55.9 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Yeah, they might be able to Roost off the damage if they carry it, but Latios shouldn't have to have 80% of its health in order to counter CAP18 and Latias shouldn't need 70%. I'm already concerned Fire Blast is too powerful, and Overheat just magnifies those concerns. Disallow Overheat.

As it stands, Latios needs 70% to switch in on Specs Fire Blast, and Latias needs 60%. Fire Blast also doesn't let them Roost for free because it is going to do the same damage the next turn. It doesn't even change any OHKOes or 2HKOes against them, regardless of entry hazards; I know that doesn't mean the two are perfectly equivalent, but we are talking about a 10% (of Lati@s' max HP) damage difference in a scenario where a pokemon with full offensive investment switches in against a bulky Choiced wall-breaker. That situation isn't going to get much better, and if Overheat is making it worse at all, it's still providing trade-offs at the same time.

On the other hand, Overheat guarantees a OHKO on Aegislash without a boosting item, while Fire Blast does not (assuming Modest). This is pretty major for any AV or Leftovers sets, and it's also very specific (to dealing with Aegislash). Leftovers sets can also use moves not affected by the stat drop.

To my knowledge, there are no Fire-types in any tier this side of DPPt that commonly run Overheat. I don't recall the last time I saw Overheat listed in Other Options on a smogon analysis of a Fire-type, either. So I have my doubts that you would even want to use Overheat on a Specs set. To hit Lati@s harder, but still not KO? You don't need it for Aegislash if you are running Specs, either. So what is the big appeal? There is a very specific reason to use it without a boosting item, but it's probably sub par outside of that.

Allow Overheat

Psychic and Psyshock: I just want to point out that Keldeo is on the list of pokemon that threaten us. It's listed as "to a lesser extent", meaning it shouldn't counter us, but if we can OHKO it then suddenly we check it rather than the other way around, and that's not what we want either. Lets leave it as a mutual 2HKO, where it has a slight edge with better speed. Apparently Psyshock is good against Goodra, too. I don't see any redeeming qualities to counteract these flaws.

Disallow Psychic and Psyshock

 

[Da Pizza Man]

As it stands, Latios needs 70% to switch in on Specs Fire Blast, and Latias needs 60%. Fire Blast also doesn't let them Roost for free because it is going to do the same damage the next turn. It doesn't even change any OHKOes or 2HKOes against them, regardless of entry hazards; I know that doesn't mean the two are perfectly equivalent, but we are talking about a 10% (of Lati@s' max HP) damage difference in a scenario where a pokemon with full offensive investment switches in against a bulky Choiced wall-breaker. That situation isn't going to get much better, and if Overheat is making it worse at all, it's still providing trade-offs at the same time.

On the other hand, Overheat guarantees a OHKO on Aegislash without a boosting item, while Fire Blast does not (assuming Modest). This is pretty major for any AV or Leftovers sets, and it's also very specific (to dealing with Aegislash). Leftovers sets can also use moves not affected by the stat drop.

To my knowledge, there are no Fire-types in any tier this side of DPPt that commonly run Overheat. I don't recall the last time I saw Overheat listed in Other Options on a smogon analysis of a Fire-type, either. So I have my doubts that you would even want to use Overheat on a Specs set. To hit Lati@s harder, but still not KO? You don't need it for Aegislash if you are running Specs, either. So what is the big appeal? There is a very specific reason to use it without a boosting item, but it's probably sub par outside of that.

Allow Overheat

Psychic and Psyshock: I just want to point out that Keldeo is on the list of pokemon that threaten us. It's listed as "to a lesser extent", meaning it shouldn't counter us, but if we can OHKO it then suddenly we check it rather than the other way around, and that's not what we want either. Lets leave it as a mutual 2HKO, where it has a slight edge with better speed. Apparently Psyshock is good against Goodra, too. I don't see any redeeming qualities to counteract these flaws.

Disallow Psychic and Psyshock

Thanks for clearing up the Keldeo thing, not many people actually did that. Yeah now I can see why we should Disallow Psychic Type Coverage

 

[farmer Potato]

I am not sure if it has been noted or not, but Disallow Flying Coverage.

Besides killing Keldeo, which should not happen by our list of counters and threats, it is a full on waste of move space. No one is countered or even remotely checked that STAB coverage does not check anyway, besides Keldeo again.

 

[FireArrow]

Opening the can on physical attacks, we should disallow all coverage moves above BP 120 that have their corresponding special attacks banned.

0 Atk Life Orb Analytic Abomasnow Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 148-177 (48.6 - 58.2%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Albacore]

I've really grown to like the idea of Clear Smog on our CAP. As has been pointed out, Sludge Bomb's ability to hit Water-types safely combined with its high poison chance make its supposed counters less effective than they should be. To me, Sludge Wave is preferable to Sludge Bomb mainly for that reason. I still don't find it to be that great an option, though, since it's only there for Azumarill, Clefable, and Sylveon, the former being huge Will-O-Wisp bait and BD variants, the only ones that really threaten our CAP all that much, getting neutered by Clear Smog. I guess Sludge Wave is a good option for the latter two, but in Clefable's case, Clear Smog deals with it far better, since what we're really afraid of is CM Clefable. The only real reason to give our CAP Sludge Wave is Sylveon, who isn't necessarily too big a threat to our core if Lucario decides to carry Iron Tail. Besides, our CAP can 2HKO the physically defensive variant if it holds a Life Orb, so Sludge Wave isn't that necessary.

Oh, and Flash Cannon really doesn't do much. It's too weak to deal more damage to Fairies than our STABs. But it doesn't hit anything we don't want to hit either, so giving it to our CAP wouldn't exactly be detrimental.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I honestly wouldn't mind Belch, unlike Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave, it forces us to use a berry so we dont get a boosting item, and with that it does suprising little

252+ SpA Analytic Volcanion Belch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 209-246 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Volcanion Belch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 140-165 (46 - 54.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Analytic Volcanion Belch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Analytic Volcanion Belch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 177-209 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Belch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 95-112 (13.4 - 15.9%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Belch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 113-134 (15.8 - 18.7%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Other than on Keldeo and Latios, it wont do much damage, and those 2 will outsped us and since we will probably be at a low health they will KO us, so even though I dont really like the Poison type being on this Cap, I have to say Allow Belch

 

[EternalSnowman]

I honestly wouldn't mind Belch, unlike Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave, it forces us to use a berry so we dont get a boosting item, and with that it does suprising little

252+ SpA Analytic Volcanion Belch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 209-246 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Volcanion Belch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 140-165 (46 - 54.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Analytic Volcanion Belch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Analytic Volcanion Belch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 177-209 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Belch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 95-112 (13.4 - 15.9%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Volcanion Belch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 113-134 (15.8 - 18.7%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Other than on Keldeo and Latios, it wont do much damage, and those 2 will outsped us and since we will probably be at a low health they will KO us, so even though I dont really like the Poison type being on this Cap, I have to say Allow Belch

I don't have much time but I just wanna say this is a pretty cool concept. Also Disallow Psychic and Flying Coverage, Allow AuraSphere and U-Turn.

 

[CerberusSONE]

So just my opinions:
Allow Special Steel Coverage.
Flash Cannon is the obvious choice I would argue for. It does not pose a threat to Rotom-W and isn't a STAB for CAP18.

Disallow Special Poison Coverage. It wouldn't be beneficial to our concept. However, it would not hurt to allow Clear Smog. Perhaps it can be rarely used for our CAP. It won't help with dealing with Aegislash necessarily, but it won't hurt to allow it.

Allow Earth Power, Disallow Other Special Ground Coverage. I am not for using anything else besides Earth Power. Hypothetically, Bulldoze would benefit us in the battlewith the speed drop, but it would go against our goal of utilizing Analytic to the fullest.
Earth Power after an Analytic Boost guarantees us OHKO'ing Stratagem.

252+ SpA Analytic CAP18 Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stratagem: 1356-1596 (353.1 - 415.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[ginganinja]

I honestly wouldn't mind Belch, unlike Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave, it forces us to use a berry so we dont get a boosting item, and with that it does suprising little

You are using 252 HP Latios and Latias to justify the "low damage" Belch does, which simply don't exist. Thus, Belch does even more damage than your calculations suggest. Threatening a 2KO on Rotom-W after Stealth Rock, or dealing 58-69% to Latios is not something I really consider as pro concept

 

[Da Pizza Man]

So just my opinions:
Allow Special Steel Coverage.
Flash Cannon is the obvious choice I would argue for. It does not pose a threat to Rotom-W and isn't a STAB for CAP18.

Disallow Special Poison Coverage. It wouldn't be beneficial to our concept. However, it would not hurt to allow Clear Smog. Perhaps it can be rarely used for our CAP. It won't help with dealing with Aegislash necessarily, but it won't hurt to allow it.

Allow Earth Power, Disallow Other Special Ground Coverage. I am not for using anything else besides Earth Power. Hypothetically, Bulldoze would benefit us in the battlewith the speed drop, but it would go against our goal of utilizing Analytic to the fullest.
Earth Power after an Analytic Boost guarantees us OHKO'ing Stratagem.

252+ SpA Analytic CAP18 Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Stratagem: 1356-1596 (353.1 - 415.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Earth power is the strongest special ground move, so why only allow it, cant we have other moves like Mud Shot?
Also why are you meantioning strategem when
1: It can have levitate
2: Its another CAP
3: Its not something we are trying to threat/be threatend by

 

[CerberusSONE]

Earth power is the strongest special ground move, so why only allow it, cant we have other moves like Mud Shot?
Also why are you meantioning strategem when
1: It can have levitate
2: It's another CAP
3: It's not something we are trying to threat/be threatend by

Mud Shot is a speed-lowering move, which, if we want to get Analytic boosts on turn that don't involve the opponent switching, we should not use. Mud Bomb and Mud Slap lower accuracy. Earth Power is the only Special Ground move I'm standing for because it doesn't fit into the two mentioned concerning categories, and targets Steel types and others susceptible to Ground (because, Idk, I guess it would be great to KO Aegislash at some point).

I wouldn't discuss another CAP if this was a total non-CAP metagame. Why not discuss something in its proper metagame? There shouldn't be a gap in generations if that's (one of) the concern(s).

 

[Bull of Heaven]

Each CAP is made for the OU metagame only. The CAP metagame is a fun byproduct. For our purposes here, Stratagem doesn't exist.

I've admittedly skimmed a lot of this thread, and am still forming opinions on most of the moves that are being discussed, but I'm becoming concerned about how often the damage output of Fire Blast/Hydro Pump is cited to argue against coverage moves. Fire Blast and Hydro Pump both have low PP and low accuracy. They won't cover all of the things in practice that they do on paper, and as powerful as they are, we should be wary of relying on them too much. I agree with the general consensus that this CAP doesn't need a lot of coverage, but allowing a type or two just to take pressure off of the main STAB attacks is itself a good thing IMO. I'm not sure about things like Power Gem and Psychic just yet, but I'm going to support allowing Poison coverage, because beating Fairies is extremely important to this CAP and I don't think we should depend on STAB attacks to do it, especially in the case of Azumarill. Iron Tail Lucario, though I've never personally used it, seems like a bad thing to rely on for similar reasons. Iron Tail's accuracy is awful, and this core can't afford to let Lucario take a hit because its own attack missed. I do see the arguments against Poison, and I'm actually fairly split on whether I want it in the final movepool, but if we want this CAP to consistently beat Fairies, then Poison just has too much potential value not to be allowed. It's exactly the kind of controversial move category that should be decided on in the movepool submissions and votes, not now.

 

[Pata Hikari]

Allow Poison Coverage

Without Poison type coverage Azumaril, probably one of the more dangerous Fairies, is much more difficult to handle.

 

[Ranger Mike]

I am really on the fence about poison coverage on one hand we have incredible coverage with our stabs and poison on the other hand if we decide to not run poison stab then we get walled by cosmic power/cm clefable and sylveon which is somewhat of a problem many argue it hits azumarill which is true and while I feel clear smog should be allowed but we can always just give this thing willowisp which is a good cripple to azumarill

 

[farmer Potato]

That being said, are we allowed to discuss non-attacking moves here? They are no where in the introductory posts.

 

[farmer Potato]

Never mind, I see now that this is attacking only.

Regarding Overheat, I think it should Not be allowed

It is too threatening, with specs and Analytic, to Lati@s and Washer, as well as Keldeo.

I also think that Flamethrower is a decent option for STAB, not too powerful, but with no drawbacks full accuracy, still a large threat.

I think Flamethrower should be allowed.

I also did some Grass Knot research.

Given a Modest nature on CAP, and a Calm Washer, Grass Knot does a pittance, a 7HKO after leftovers.

However, the issue rises in Keldeo. We want a flimsy check in Keldeo, not a counter. However, Grassknot does not even allow that, chipping a minimum of 97% health from Keldeo assuming Specs Modest. If hazards are up, Keldeo is gone for certain.

Other than those two, there is no use for Grass Knot. Thus, I argue that Grass knot should be disallowed.

 

[FMD]

Fiery Dance is far too powerful potentially to be considered. After one successful boost, even a Leftovers set would be hitting as powerfully as a Choice Specs set.

 

[jas61292]

Fiery Dance is far too powerful potentially to be considered. After one successful boost, even a Leftovers set would be hitting as powerfully as a Choice Specs set.

For what its worth, I think this is a gross oversimplification of things. Yeah, +1 is really good, but when compared to the power of simply running Fire Blast, it is nothing special. Odds are that you get far more damage from two Fire Blasts than from two Fiery Dances.

However, with that said, I would agree that it should be disallowed. Offensive boosting of any sort is not something I think we should be supporting. While it might not be as powerful as Fire Blast, it encourages a different type of role, and not one that I think we want.

 

[Burt Racecar]

Regarding Keldeo, he is on the list of pokemon meant to threaten (to a lesser extent) CAP18. In order to ensure this happens we need to disallow grass knot, flying coverage and psychic coverage. As stated previously Grass Knot deals too much damage to Keldeo at 60BP, so this automatically suggests that flying and psychic coverage are going to be capable of OHKOing Keldeo.

However, we can't prevent CAP18 having Hidden Power, therefore HP electric/grass are viable options that will still deal plenty of damage to Keldeo (and Azumarill too, food for thought for those who wish to deal with Azu with the 95bp super-effective sludge wave).

Finally, I noticed Acid Spray was on the 'needs discussion' list, which is an interesting one, I think it should be disallowed because the Sp.Def reduction is too harsh and effectively like a Nasty Plot for us. Alongside that, it would force switches like no other, forcing the Analytic boost to come into play very frequently - this guy is going to shred teams in this situation. As for special walls, with enough Sp.Def down I don't think Chansey/Blissey would be feeling particularly safe about taking a Fire Blast to the face. Disallow Acid Spray.

EDIT: More reason to disallow Acid Spray. Only Steel types would be immune to it, but they fall to our Fire Blast, the exception being heatran which will not want to tank any water moves. So yeah, in my opinion Acid Spray has the potential to seriously break CAP18.

 

[farmer Potato]

I agree that Psychic coverage of any sort (other than HP) be disallowed. I am especially referring to Psychic and Psyschock.

Psychic and Psyschock do nothing to defeat the Pokemon that CAP must defeat.

In addition, both moves OHKO Keldeo on the switch in, which bars it from acting as a check to CAP. Psyschock allows CAP to pose a decent threat to Chansey, Blissey, and Goodra, and this should be the other way around.

TL;DR: Psychic coverage gives no protection from threats to the core, while destroying our theoretical checks and counters

edit: I also took another look at the poison coverage, and here are my compilations.

Acid Spray should be disallowed

The only Pokemon that needs to threaten CAP that it hinders are Rotom-W and Keldeo. It does a pittance to Latios, Latias, Blissey, Chansey, Goodra even after a -2. It wrecks the Azumarill and Clefable with a -2 Special Defense drop(if Clef is physical defensive).

However, I change my stance: Sludge Bomb and Wave should be banned.

These moves are unnecessary overkills on the fairies, and they horribly threaten the needed counters and checks to CAP.

They would get 2-3 HKO's on Lati@S, 2HKO on Washer and Keldeo. This is not acceptable for our CAP.


Edit: I appear to have underestimated -2 Analytic. After going back and running calcs of +2 Modest Fire Blast (which is the same as -2 on opponent, I saw that that would be bad.

Over 40%damage without specs (because with specs, you're stuck in Acid Spray.)


So I change. Disallow acid spray, allow Clear Smog to counter fairies.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Poison coverage is interesting, as it hits Azumarill, Sylveon, and Clefable harder than Fire Blast or Hydro Pump, but also hits Keldeo, Rotom-W, and Latios/Latias harder than Fire Blast or Hydro Pump as long as the BP of the Poison attack is greater than 82.5. Whether or not we should allow Sludge Bomb or Sludge Wave should come down to whether or not the benefits of hitting Fairies super-effectively is greater than the drawback of hitting Waters and Dragons neutrally. Personally, I don't believe the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Choice Specs Sludge Wave obliterates Latios and Latias, easily securing a 2HKO on both with either Modest or Timid. Although Fire Blast or Hydro Pump can usually 2HKO Latias and Latios as well, they can Roost off the damage from our STABs (or gamble for a miss). The 15% difference between Fire Blast and Sludge Wave is enormous, and we can write Latios and Latias off as threats to our CAP. Remember, Latios doesn't often run Roost and can be OHKO'd by a Specs-boosted Sludge Wave after Stealth Rock and one round of Life Orb damage. Latios cannot OHKO CAP18 in return, so Specs CAP18 will beat Latios 1v1 and will defeat it switching into a Defog. CAP18 will counter Latios better than Latios will counter CAP18 if we give it Sludge Wave; we're already toeing the line of making CAP18 too powerful as it is.


252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 166-196 (54.9 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 182-215 (60.2 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 144-169 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 157-186 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 192-227 (63.5 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 210-248 (69.5 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 165-195 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic CAP18 Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 182-214 (60.2 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I will admit CAP18 would like Sludge Wave to defeat Sylveon, and only a Choice Specs-boosted Sludge Wave will be able to 2HKO it without any Analytic boosts. For example, Modest Choice Specs CAP18 has a 9.8% chance to 2HKO Sylveon with Fire Blast, but a 100% chance to do so with Sludge Wave (assuming no Analytic boosts). However, even with only one hit being boosted by Analytic, Sylveon cannot switch into Modest Choice Specs CAP18 Fire Blast or Sludge Wave. Clefable usually runs a Physically bulky spread, and CAP18 2HKOs Clefable with both Sludge Wave and Fire Blast without a boosting item. Azumarill can be handled by Will-O-Wisp.

The 15% power difference between a neutral/super-effective Sludge Wave and a resisted/neutral Fire Blast goes a much longer way towards letting CAP18 defeat its counters than letting CAP18 defeat the Pokemon it's supposed to threaten. We gave CAP18 Analytic so it can muscle through Fairies with its STABs in a Keldeo-like role. Sludge Bomb's 30% Poison chance is anti-concept in the same manner: it defeats Latios and Latias while still not allowing CAP18 to do much better against Sylveon or Clefable. Disallow Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave.

Clear Smog does not hit our counters any harder than Fire Blast or Hydro Pump, and its secondary effect could help us against Calm Mind Clefable. I'm in favor. Allow Clear Smog.

Acid Spray lets CAP18 muscle through Special walls such as Goodra and Chansey. No thanks. Disallow Acid Spray.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Acid Spray:

Hide

I would like to Disallow Acid Spray. I have already shown you guys the power of stat changes with Fiery Dance, and with only 1 level. Now we are getting 2 levels. It will basically either force a switch, which gives us a Analytic boosted attack on the pokemon that was switched into, or the could risk losing the pokemon already out

Stored Power (Wall of text alert):

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This one is to just to keep us in the core, but we should Disallow Stored Power. If we give it Stored Power, it will become a walking nuclear bomb. It completely decimates any non-dark type with 4 of our stats maxed out, which can happen on a baton pass team. Check out what it does to all our counters.

+6 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Stored Power (500 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 2522-2968 (829.6 - 976.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Stored Power (500 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 10396-12232 (3218.5 - 3786.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Stored Power (500 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 1905-2242 (630.7 - 742.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Stored Power (500 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 2203-2592 (729.4 - 858.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Stored Power (500 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 1718-2022 (447.3 - 526.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Stored Power (500 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 2346-2760 (333.2 - 392%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Stored Power (500 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 2827-3326 (395.9 - 465.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yeah, a guaranteed OHKO, that is broken. It doesnt even need all that, all it needs is 1 stat maxed out and it will destroy stuff

+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 686-808 (96 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 569-671 (80.8 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 419-493 (109.1 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Volcanion Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 534-629 (176.8 - 208.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Volcanion Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 463-545 (153.3 - 180.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Volcanion Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 2524-2971 (781.4 - 919.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Volcanion Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 2524-2971 (781.4 - 919.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This move is just to dangerous and to anti-concept to even think about allowing

Bug Type Coverage:

Hide

I think we should disallow Bug Type Coverage. It just does to much damage to the latis, even koing them

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 344-406 (113.9 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Volcanion Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 398-470 (131.7 - 155.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Ramplestilskin]

I don't really see much use of the move Belch, it's an one-shot move and it generally means that you are item-less or one-attack-less, so I don't really mind allowing or disallowing it, just don't use it.
I don't think there is much to say why I think you should Disallow Acid Spray, getting a just below-average power on the switch and letting the target being really weak after that is too powerfull. For ewample, 252+ Analytic Life Orb Acid Spay : 19-22% to 252/252+ Rotom-W, and then even a surf or a Flamethrower : 63-74% to 252/-2 252+ Rotom-W, what means that with SR you have some chance to beat it, and with Fire Blast/Hydro Pump or Heat wave the 2HKO is more likely to happen.
I'm only advocating for Disallowing Overheat and Allowing Heat wave, the first one is a too powerfull Choice-item attack to use, while the second one makes a balance between flamethrower and Fire Blast.

Finally, I don't know if it is usefull to specify that we should Disallow the following moves : Magma Storm, Searing shot, Blue flare(unfortunately ): ), V-create and Fusion flare, but if it is, it's done ^^. These are all signature moves, too strong for a CAP. Now the last Fire Special move is Mystical fire and, well, I don't really know what to do with it (btw I don't really know if it is a competitive move).

 

[Vryheid]

The idea that we need to specifically check Keldeo is ridiculous- Latias is one of the best counters in the game to Keldeo, and as that's part of the offensive core this CAPmon was built around, there is no need for it to take one of Latias's best roles. Psyshock, as Alexwolf demonstrates quite clearly, hits way too hard on Chansey/Blissey on the switchin and ruins sets such as Assault Vest Conkeldurr or Goodra who might otherwise stand a chance against it. It also is completely useless against the fairies and Aegislash (the stuff we're supposed to check). Therefore, Psyshock should not be allowed.

Clear Smog and Acid Spray are not attacking moves (as defined by the OP)- their primary purpose is taking advantage of their secondary effect, not to deal their pitiful damage output. Until we come up with an attack moveset there's no point in discussing them.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say allow Signal Beam- there is an immense amount of risk to using the move, as if you predict wrong against an Aegislash they will 4x resist the move and blast you next turn with Shadow Ball. Since it really doesn't do much damage outside of hitting a few dark and psychic type threats, and since it is heavily dependent on proper prediction from the player, I'd say it is good for the metagame and for this CAPmon in general. It won't stop the big counters- Keldeo, Wash Rotom, Chansey, and Blissey- and it will give CAP 18 more options against threats such as Hydreigon, Crawdaunt and Latias, which right now it desperately needs.

 

[Bughouse]

Clear Smog and Acid Spray are not attacking moves (as defined by the OP)- their primary purpose is taking advantage of their secondary effect, not to deal their pitiful damage output. Until we come up with an attack moveset there's no point in discussing them.

Vryheid is correct about this, at least with regards to Clear Smog. Historically we have treated Clear Smog as a non-attacking move.

With regards to Acid Spray, we have been inconsistent in the past. I'd put in the same sort of category as Charge Beam, Flame Charge, or Power-Up Punch, but we don't have a uniform history on that. I'm fine to discuss it either here or in the non-attacking moves discussion and in either case I think it should be disallowed.