Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Peef Rimgar]

Major nitpick here, but she poisons Hippo, and easily beats it 1v1 if it's stupid enough to stay in.

The thing about her counters is that she can always use Wish as they come in, which gives an essentially free switch into a counter for what they just brought in. There's also a chance she'll paralyze Gengar, Aegislash or a physical sweeper with Thunder Wave as they come in, so she certainly doesn't always give free switches and can definitely cripple things she's not normally considered to. She should be A really, A+ is understandable though, and I have her on virtually all of my Balanced and Stall teams because she's the best cleric and special wall by a country mile, and pretty much puts all other would-be clerics to shame. Being the best cleric (arguably the only worthwhile one) and special wall simultaneously has to count for something, and A rank is perfect for that.

The thing is, 99.9% of the time Aegislash doesn't give a flying fuck about being parad, unless the user is using speed investment for whatever dumb reason.

Honestly, Chansey is fine where it is. The metagame definitely adapted to it, and with as many offensive powerhouses around it really doesn't wall the significant portions of the metagame that it and Blissey did in gen 5. Plus, knock off exists.

 

[Baharoth]

Major nitpick here, but she poisons Hippo, and easily beats it 1v1 if it's stupid enough to stay in.

Obviously Hippo wont stay in against a Chansey with Toxic. However, not all Chansey run it as it hast to compete for a moveslot with Aromatherapy and Twave.

The thing is, 99.9% of the time Aegislash doesn't give a flying fuck about being parad, unless the user is using speed investment for whatever dumb reason.

Getting parad is opening the door for hax to come in and pay a visit. So saying it doesnt give a fuck is a understatement. Nothing likes para.

 

[NoahStar]

Alright, I'll admit my list has flaws. I'm not a very experienced player so I can't easily think of every common set. Sorry about that.

Also, against Aegi and the others you mentioned, Chansey can't kill them, but they give her free turns to pass Wishes and use Heal Bell. And that's the entire point of using Chansey, it's not like she's going to kill anything in the match, but as long as she is there, the opposing team will have a hard time killing anything either, since she is very easy to bring in and force switches, while reversing the damage and status her opponents causes to her team. And that's only because she can wall many pokemon. There are a lot of pokemon who can beat her given the right movesets (like the Knock Off ones), but the keyword here is can, not every pokemon runs the perfectly optimal anti-Chansey set all the time, you don't put Knock Off on every pokemon of your team who can learn it just because of Chansey (and if you do, that's a testament to how great Chansey is). The bottomline is, unless the opponent team is VERY offensive, Chansey usually walls half, if not more, of it. It makes a big influence in a match, because it shuts down a lot of pokemon just by existing. It's severely underrated.

You will never want to wish pass in the face of a set up sweeper unless you want your Chansey to die. Something I'm seeing a lot more is SubAeigi which walls Chansey hard and has Toxic to force a switch.

Chansey is good but the metagame is spamming Knock Off left and right and it's not just for crippling Chansey. Knocking off an item is really damaging for any Pokemon that doesn't have unburden. Pokemon with Leftovers really need that passive damage (which is actually a lot more important that many give credit for) while sweepers really need their Life Orb to net those 1-2HKO's. It just so happens that in a meta where everyone is trying to cripple their opponent by taking away their items, Chansey is crippled the hardest. This need to get rid of your opponents' items is a testament to how good Chansey is, but the fact is that it's not doing her any favors.

I think Chansey is good where she is.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Getting parad is opening the door for hax to come in and pay a visit. So saying it doesnt give a fuck is a understatement. Nothing likes para.

The main reason to use Twave (barring when ParaSwag was a thing) is to cripple a set up sweeper/quick choice item user. Aegislash, at least the more common ones, is neither, so it could usually care less.

 

[Hootie]

Sometimes I think people over hype Chansey too much in this thread. Walling shit doesn't mean anything when it's so easy to set up on it (especially for steel-types).

 

[Aragorn the King]

Sometimes I think people over hype Chansey too much in this thread. Walling shit doesn't mean anything when it's so easy to set up on it (especially for steel-types).

Well, TWave deters setup. It's easy to exaggerate Chansey's greatness, due to the fact that it often just won't die. However, Knock Off ruins its life, as do Fighting moves. I think A- is best for it.

 

[Baharoth]

Sometimes I think people over hype Chansey too much in this thread. Walling shit doesn't mean anything when it's so easy to set up on it (especially for steel-types).

Well i dont know about others but Chansey is the only wall aside from mega Venu that I consider specificly while teambuilding because they are so incredibly hard to kill. Yes strong fighting type moves can kill Chansey but they are so obvious most of the time that they usually dont get a chance to do that, same goes for Knock Off. Even without thinking about it during teambuilding I never had any problems to take out other walls like Skarm, Mandi, Hippo or what ever but those 2 can wall your ass all day long if your not prepared for them. I ve used chansey myself alot and i cant even tell how many times I was able to sweep half of the opponents team with her lategame because nothing could touch her at all and that against players in the 1600+. Unless you have a good lure to take her out she can be a huge thorn in your side.

And its not only her amazing bulk and walling capabilities. I mean she is one of the best mixed walls in the game, by far the best special wall and to top it off she is also the best cleric in the game and she can screw over sweepers with Toxic/Twave if she wants to. A- is realy far to low for that especially considering how much mediocre stuff is S rank just because its so popular.

 

[Hootie]

Did you just say you swept with a wall??? And lol @ calling the pokes in S rank mediocre. Lets look at S rank:

Charizard X is the best dd sweeper in the game and has many choices for STAB moves. It also can run a really nice tank set.

Charizard Y is one of the best wall breakers in the tier capable of doing around 30% to Chansey with Sun-Boosted Fire Blast. If that doesn't say anything about how powerful it is I don't what does.

Aegislash is very verstile threat that go can mixed, SubToxic, and even SD.

Deoxy-D is the best hazard setter in the tier bar none and can run Superpower to get past it's normal counters. It's the reason why DeoThund or DeoSharp are such popular play styles.

Deoxys-S is basically a choice scarfer that can switch moves and with the switches it forces it can set up SR easily as well.

Bisharp is so good because of how well it fits in the meta. Defog is everywhere and as a result so is Bisharp.

Thundurus is probably the scariest offensive mon in OU right now. You never know if it's physical or special.

To compare Chansey with mons in S or A+ rank is really pushing what Chansey is capable of. Pokemon in S rank are popular for a reason too: they are really great pokemon. Plain and simple. Sure it's easy to see fighting moves and knock off coming, but the problem with Chansey is that it is forced to switch out making it very predictable for your opponent to respond to what may switch in (not mention being forced out=free set up bait). A- or A is perfectly fine for Chansey, but any more is pushing it.

 

[theV8man]

Did you just say you swept with a wall???

I wouldn't exactly call it sweeping. However, once all the pokemon on the enemy team who can break chansey are gone, as well as those who can heal, I've sometimes closed games out without using a sweeper. Just wishing and seismic tossing everything to death...

 

[Rosen]

I'm not happy with the ranking of Mega Ampharos. It's in C+, right next to Mega Abomasnow and Mega Aerodactyl. This just doesn't make sense. Mega Abomasnow has god-awful typing, as does Mega Aerodactyl. Mega Ampharos has 6 resistances, including the common offensive types in fire, water, and flying. Mega Ampharos has greater mixed bulk than both of them, and the second highest special attack of any non-uber pokemon. It also has a much more useful movepool, and has a niche as the bulkiest and hardest hitting pivot switch in the game. Mega Ampharos completely walls common threats such as Rotom-W, Zapdos, and Talonflame, and threatens many higher ranked sweepers and walls such as Manaphy, Slowbro, Skarmory, Thundurus-I (when invested in bulk HP Ice doesn't do much to Mega Amph), Tornadus-T, Mandibuzz, Gyarados (even EQ fails to OHKO it, and if invested in bulk, fails at +1), and even the S-Ranked Mega Charizard Y (Earthquake only does a pitiful 33.3 - 39.5%, and even uninvested T-Bolt OHKOs 100% of the time).

Now, I'm not saying Mega Amph should be a top tier threat. It shouldn't, and it isn't. But to be thrown into C+ rank with the likes of Mega ABOMASNOW and AERODACTYL? That's just absurd. I think it should be moved up to at least B-. It has the stats, typing, and movepool to be one or two tiers higher than C+.

 

[Aragorn the King]

I'm not happy with the ranking of Mega Ampharos. It's in C+, right next to Mega Abomasnow and Mega Aerodactyl. This just doesn't make sense. Mega Abomasnow has god-awful typing, as does Mega Aerodactyl. Mega Ampharos has 6 resistances, including the common offensive types in fire, water, and flying. Mega Ampharos has greater mixed bulk than both of them, and the second highest special attack of any non-uber pokemon. It also has a much more useful movepool, and has a niche as the bulkiest and hardest hitting pivot switch in the game. Mega Ampharos completely walls common threats such as Rotom-W, Zapdos, and Talonflame, and threatens much higher rated sweepers and walls such as Manaphy, Slowbro, Skarmory, Thundurus-I (when invested in bulk HP Ice doesn't do much to Mega Amph), Tornadus-T, Mandibuzz, Gyarados (even EQ fails to OHKO it, and if invested in bulk, fails at +1), and even the S-Ranked Mega Charizard Y.

Now, I'm not saying Mega Amph should be a top tier threat. It shouldn't and it isn't. But to be thrown into C rank with the likes of Mega ABOMASNOW and AERODACTYL? That's just absurd. I think it should be moved up to at least B-. It has the stats, typing, and movepool to be one or two tiers higher than C+.

I agree that it should move up. But don't bring Dactyl into the mix. It really should go up as well.

But as for Amphy, it is super bulky, has a great defensive typing, and is very powerful. Thus, it's able to be an offensive pivot, specially defensive tank, and rain sweeper. Because of that, and what you said, I think it deserves B-.

Its flaws are obvious. But now it's very underrated, and is very useful for handling Thundy, Talonflame, Zapdos, Rotom, Mandibuzz, Slowbro, Tornadus, and choice locker Raptor.

 

[Rosen]

I agree that it should move up. But don't bring Dactyl into the mix. It really should go up as well.

But as for Amphy, it is super bulky, has a great defensive typing, and is very powerful. Thus, it's able to be an offensive pivot, specially defensive tank, and rain sweeper. Because of that, and what you said, I think it deserves B-.

Aerodactyl... yes, it should go up, but I think Amph should be higher. Aerodactyl has incredible speed and high attack, as well as great offensive typing and a good movepool, but I think he isn't quite as threatening as some others due to its lack of Swords Dance. He currently has Hone Claws, which is definitely a plus, ESPECIALLY for moves like Stone Edge that can really shred teams, but this is a minor setback. If he does get Swords Dance with the next release though... He could become pretty terrifying pretty quickly.

TL;DR Aerodactyl should totes move up too, just not quite as much

 

[Rosen]

In addition, I think Deo-S should drop to A+ rank, or even A. It simply isn't as good a hazard setter as Deo-D, as it must rely on a focus sash to get the job done, and even then it still isn't as good as Deo-D, who can use recover effectively. The only real advantage is faster taunt, but with Deo-D learning magic coat also, it doesn't really make much of a difference.

As far as offense goes, Deo-S is piss-weak. Even with a life orb it hits like a wet paper towel bar Psycho Boost, and even then the huge stat drop makes it more trouble that it's worth most of the time. While it can fulfill two roles pretty well, in both senses it's simply outclassed.

 

[Aragorn the King]

In addition, I think Deo-S should drop to A+ rank, or even A. It simply isn't as good a hazard setter as Deo-D, as it must rely on a focus sash to get the job done, and even then it still isn't as good as Deo-D, who can use recover effectively. The only real advantage is faster taunt, but with Deo-D learning magic coat also, it doesn't really make much of a difference.

As far as offense goes, Deo-S is piss-weak. Even with a life orb it hits like a wet paper towel bar Psycho Boost, and even then the huge stat drop makes it more trouble that it's worth most of the time. While it can fulfill two roles pretty well, in both senses it's simply outclassed.

While it is weak, it's useful as a revenge killer that outspeeds ScarfChomp. I think A+ suits it better, though, as it does have its flaws, such as being partially outclassed as a hazard setting, being extremely frail, and relatively weak. It's a good mon, but nowhere near CharX or DeoD.

 

[LightningLuxray]

In addition, I think Deo-S should drop to A+ rank, or even A. It simply isn't as good a hazard setter as Deo-D, as it must rely on a focus sash to get the job done, and even then it still isn't as good as Deo-D, who can use recover effectively. The only real advantage is faster taunt, but with Deo-D learning magic coat also, it doesn't really make much of a difference.

As far as offense goes, Deo-S is piss-weak. Even with a life orb it hits like a wet paper towel bar Psycho Boost, and even then the huge stat drop makes it more trouble that it's worth most of the time. While it can fulfill two roles pretty well, in both senses it's simply outclassed.

Ok, I'm going to argue to keep Deo-S S Rank.

Firstly, Deo-S is, with the exception of maybe Talonflame, the best revenge killer in the game. Thanks it it massive Speed stat, it can outspeed almost any boosting sweeper at +1, such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Gyarados, Mega Tyranitar, Dragonite, Normal Gyarados, etc. Thanks to it's large movepool, it also has an extremely easy time either OHKOing, or, at the very least, 2HKOing all of these threat with either STAB Psycho Boost, Superpower, or Ice Beam. Not only that, but it can even use Knock Off to cripple the opponent, or Stealth Rock to get hazards up fast.

Deo-S also has two other, very underrated sets that actually preform very well. First, the Dual Screens set is actually a great lead for Hyper Offensive teams, allowing more frial setup sweepers to setup with ease. For example, something like Haxorus, who is normally much to frail to setup sweeper who finds it extremely hard to function in the metagame, can actually setup a Swords Dance or a Dragon Dance reliably and prepare to wreck face. It can also utilize a fast Taunt to stop other hazard leads/setup sweepers in their tracks, something Deo-D can't do nearly as effectively. Finally, Deo-S can also reliably set up Stealth Rock, too.

Finally, Deo-S's final set is weather lead. Rain Offense is an extremely underrated teamstyle ATM. I mean, Pokemon such as Kabutops and Kingdra are only as high as they are thanks to Rain. Deo-S is the perfect lead for these types of teams, as due to his large Speed stat, he can guarantee Rain goes up. Since he dies very quickly, he also allows Rain sweepers, such as Kabutops and Kingdra, to get in as fast as possible, and abuse as many Rain turns as possible. He also once again has a fast Taunt and Stealth Rock, which are helpful for the previously mentioned/obvious reasons.

While Deo-S is usually outclassed when it comes to a hazard lead, it still has a lot of effective sets that I feel it isn't given credit for. All of these sets are very helpful in making both HO and Rain balance as effective as they are. LO is also one of the best revenge killers in the game, as it can come in and do a great amount to almost any boosting sweeper. Overall, Deo-S is an effective revenge killer and lead that, in my opinion, is deserving of S-Rank.

 

[Flan76]

Nominating Hippowdon for A+ Rank. A defensive behemoth that can hard check/counter more than half of the meta, this phenomenal pokemon belongs in A+ rank due to the extremely low number of shortcomings it has. Since I can't post in VR because I am a scrub, I'll just post this here. Below I have gone down the S and A ranks and shown you how much of the metagame it counters. Note that Hippowdon hard checks/counters the entirety of S rank that has the capability of running an offensive set. Is that not impressive?

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Aegislash-Hard counter to any set that lacks Toxic.

Bisharp-Hard counter unless flinch

Charizard (Mega-X)-Hard check to DD sets with enough phys def investment; hippo lives the +1 Flare blitz and kills with EQ.

Charizard (Mega-Y)-Hippo serves as a hard check to zard y once it has already mega evolved; it removes the effect of solarbeam and avoids the 2hko from Fire Blast, and can OHKO with Stone Edge/rock slide.

Deoxys-S-Counters LO sets. Life orb ice beam doesn't 2hko, and hippo slacks off the damage while deo s takes continual residual damage.

Thundurus-I-Hard counter, unless thundy has Grass Knot, which is very uncommon.

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Garchomp-with a phys def spread, it hard counters all chomp sets that lack SD; hippo is admittedly setup fodder for SD chomp.

Mawile (Mega)-Soft Check:Lives the +2 play rough with enough investment and kills with EQ if it has been weakened

Pinsir (Mega)-hard check; hippo lives the +2 frustration and kills with SE

Talonflame-Hard counter

Tyranitar (Mega)-HArd counter with physically defensive evs

A Rank

Clefable-Hippo is setup fodder for magic guard clef if it lacks WW, but it wins against Unaware variants due to toxic.

Dragonite-It slacks off damage from +1 outrage, and then 2hkoes with SE.

Excadrill-Hard Counter

Gengar-with Whirlwind or Stone Edge, it can tentatively handle certain gengar sets.

Heatran-hard check unless specs set

Landorus-T-Hard check to any set that lacks DD; hippo toxics and stalls it out

Terrakion-hard counter unless band, which has a chance to 2hko

Tyranitar-hard counter

A- Rank

Latias-hippo can freely switch into any set that lacks Life Orb Surf

Scizor-setup fodder for SD sets, but hard counters Band sets

Zapdos-decent check if Zapdos lacks Toxic

Note that the beauty of Hippo is that it can pick and choose what it wants to counter based on its EV spread; with a spdef spread it counters/checks aegis, char y, thundy, mega man, etc. With a phys def spread it provides a nice check to talon, pinsir, terrak, tyranitar, exca, etc. It counters/checks a very vast majority of the meta, and I don't see how it can be anywhere below A+.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Nominating Hippowdon for A+ Rank. A defensive behemoth that can hard check/counter more than half of the meta, this phenomenal pokemon belongs in A+ rank due to the extremely low number of shortcomings it has. Since I can't post in VR because I am a scrub, I'll just post this here. Blow I have gone down the S, A, and B ranks and seen how hippo fares against each offensive mon. Note that Hippowdon hard checks/counters the entirety of S rank that has the capability of running an offensive set. Is that not impressive?

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S Rank

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Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

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Aegislash-Hard counter to any set that lacks Toxic.

Bisharp-Hard counter unless flinch

Charizard (Mega-X)-Hard check to DD sets with enough phys def investment; hippo lives the +1 Flare blitz and kills with EQ.

Charizard (Mega-Y)-Hippo serves as a hard check to zard y once it has already mega evolved; it removes the effect of solarbeam and avoids the 2hko from Fire Blast, and can OHKO with Stone Edge/rock slide.

Deoxys-S-Counters LO sets. Life orb ice beam doesn't 2hko, and hippo slacks off the damage while deo s takes continual residual damage.

Thundurus-I-Hard counter, unless thundy has Grass Knot, which is very uncommon.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

A+ Rank

Azumarill-no

Garchomp-with a phys def spread, it hard counters all chomp sets that lack SD; hippo is admittedly setup fodder for SD chomp.

Greninja-no

Gyarados (Mega)-no

Keldeo-no

Kyurem-B-no

Landorus-I-no

Mawile (Mega)-Soft Check:Lives the +2 play rough with enough investment and kills with EQ if it has been weakened

Pinsir (Mega)-hard check; hippo lives the +2 frustration and kills with SE

Scizor (Mega)-Hippo is complete setup fodder for this, so i'll say no unless hippo has WW.

Talonflame-Hard counter

Tyranitar (Mega)-HArd counter with physically defensive evs

A Rank

Clefable-Hippo is setup fodder for magic guard clef if it lacks WW, but it wins against Unaware variants due to toxic.

Dragonite-It slacks off damage from +1 outrage, and then 2hkoes with SE.

Excadrill-Hard Counter

Gengar-with Whirlwind or Stone Edge, it can tentatively handle certain gengar sets.

Heatran-hard check unless specs set

Landorus-T-Hard check to any set that lacks DD; hippo toxics and stalls it out

Latios-no, but it can slack off the damage from Draco Meteor and live to tell the tale, but it can't switch in.

Manaphy-no

Rotom-W-no

Terrakion-hard counter unless band, which has a chance to 2hko

Tyranitar-hard counter

A- Rank

Garchomp (Mega)-no

Gyarados-no

Latias-hippo can freely switch into any set that lacks Life Orb Surf

Mamoswine-no

Politoed-no

Scizor-setup fodder for SD sets, but hard counters Band sets

Zapdos-decent check if Zapdos lacks Toxic

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

B+ Rank

Conkeldurr-hard counters AV set with enough physically defensive investment

Diggersby-no

Gardevoir (Mega)-no

Kabutops-no

Medicham (Mega)-no

Scolipede-Hard counters Life Orb sets

B Rank

Blastoise (Mega)-no

Breloom-no

Heracross (Mega)-no

Lucario-Hard counter with physically defensive spread

Kingdra-no

Manectric (Mega)-HArd counter in all scenarios

Raikou-Hard counter in all scenarios

Tornadus-T-hard check unless multiple hurricanes are hit in sand

Victini-serves as a check to scarftini, but cannot switch into bandtini.

B- Rank

Absol (Mega)-hard counter

Alakazam-hard counter to sashed zam, because no move comes close to 2hkoing and hippo EQs in retalition.

Alakazam (Mega)-hard check, because no move outside of energy ball 2hkoes. energy ball isn't common on this in the slightest.

Crawdaunt-no

Entei-hard counter

Gothitelle-no

Rhyperior-hard counter, but no one uses this

Sharpedo-no

Staraptor-no, 2hko from reckless Brave Bird

Starmie-no

Volcarona-Hard check because hippo ohkoes with SE.

Zygarde-Setup fodder unless hippo has WW.

Fully support this. The amount of sheer bulk Hippo has makes it one of the best mixed and physical walls in the entire metagame. Combined this with amazing support moves in Stealth Rock and Whirlwind, as well as a decent attack stat that means it's not setup fotter, and you easily have one of the most reliable walls in the entire metagame. Easy A+ imo.

 

[DeceptiveDestiny]

Nominating Quagsire to A- Rank. Though it may be a premier staple in stall, it's also welcomed to defensive teams that want a sturdy wall that can first and foremost, wall almost any physical attacker, consistently check BP Teams with both Unaware and Haze (the latter so it won't die to Stored Power, and prevent Mold Breaker Pokemon from setting-up), and reliably check Bisharp and Thundurus-I. I recommend that you utilize Quagsire because it's literally a physical behemoth that can stop Pokemon like Zard-X from steamrolling through your team.

Nominating Gothitelle to B+ Rank. It can trap, dispose of certain threats, and dismantle stall cores. These are the few things Gothitelle can offer to your team. With respectable Special Attack and formidable bulk in the form of 70/95/110, there's no denial that Gothitelle is your definition of a stallbreaker. For the advantages Gothitelle has, includes a wide array of attacks it can choose from, allowing you to tailor it in countering and muscling through Pokemon that may trouble you, it also has can cripple lots of walls with Trick, and a Psychic typing as a double-edged sword. For the disadvantages, it's very prone to Pursuit-trapping and its typing weaknesses are very much prevalent in the metagame as of now. But looking at its pros and cons, you can still say that the utility this Gothitelle fulfills for you outweighs its disadvantages. Imo, it needs to be in B+ as it is the bane of stall, and there are no true counters once this goth-based Pokemon enters the field.

 

[jbtc10]

Hippo is also the best Sand Inducer, which means he pretty much enables Sand Rush Excadrill to be the behemoth he is, so that's another strong perk. Dunno about A+ though tbh, but we'll see.

 

[Lazybeef]

The biggest problem with hippo is that he has a bad case of 4MSS.

Earthquake and slack off are a must on every set. It also wants to be able to set up stealth rocks. Almost every set will carry stealth rocks. It also wants whirlwind to phaze any sweeper who tries to set up on it.

That's four moves which are all very important. It also wants ice fang and a rock move to counter various threats more efficently and toxic is also nice but hippo doesn't have space to run it.

 

[Baharoth]

Did you just say you swept with a wall??? And lol @ calling the pokes in S rank mediocre. Lets look at S rank:

Charizard X is the best dd sweeper in the game and has many choices for STAB moves. It also can run a really nice tank set.

Charizard Y is one of the best wall breakers in the tier capable of doing around 30% to Chansey with Sun-Boosted Fire Blast. If that doesn't say anything about how powerful it is I don't what does.

Aegislash is very verstile threat that go can mixed, SubToxic, and even SD.

Deoxy-D is the best hazard setter in the tier bar none and can run Superpower to get past it's normal counters. It's the reason why DeoThund or DeoSharp are such popular play styles.

Deoxys-S is basically a choice scarfer that can switch moves and with the switches it forces it can set up SR easily as well.

Bisharp is so good because of how well it fits in the meta. Defog is everywhere and as a result so is Bisharp.

Thundurus is probably the scariest offensive mon in OU right now. You never know if it's physical or special.

To compare Chansey with mons in S or A+ rank is really pushing what Chansey is capable of. Pokemon in S rank are popular for a reason too: they are really great pokemon. Plain and simple. Sure it's easy to see fighting moves and knock off coming, but the problem with Chansey is that it is forced to switch out making it very predictable for your opponent to respond to what may switch in (not mention being forced out=free set up bait). A- or A is perfectly fine for Chansey, but any more is pushing it.

Well maybe sweeping is the wrong word, but once the few pokes that can break her are down you can just seismic toss everything to death.

Regarding S Rank i agree with you on the Charis and Aegi, the rest however has far to many flaws/isnt threating enough to deserve that rank imo.

Deo-S is nice as a revenger, i am using it myself on one of my teams, but it does have lots of flaws that hold it back. Its frail as fuck, usually the only way to get it in is to let something else die, sure its called a revengekiller but still, other revengers can actually switch into stuff without sacking something. Whats making the frailness even worse is the priority you find everywhere. Whats the point in beeing the fastest mon available when priority is everywhere and deo is easily 2hkoed by every kind of priority bar Mach Punch. The next issue is its power. Psychoboost aside its fairly weak, the coverage moves have to hit SE to do anything and even if they do, bulky stuff can usually take the hit. Its stab is strong but it forces you out afterwards which is not a good thing considering how hard it is to get Deo in in the first place. As a Hazardsetter its mostly outclassed by Deo-D and Screens in a meta full of Defog arent too usefull.

Deo-D is, from my point of view, a typical case of "Good at what it does, but what it does isnt worth doing". Using it means to dedicate a full team slot to nothing but setting up hazards and despite such a heavy commitment the most you will usually get out of it is SR and 1 layer of Spikes. Against stall probably more, against offensive teams usually less. Considering how many strong offensive mons can setup SR as well while also beeing dangerous as hell I dont see much point in wasting that offensive potential for just 1 layer of Spikes. And imo its the other way around, Aegi and Bisharp are so good to begin with, while also blocking hazard removal, that they actually make Deo-D usefull. If it werent for them nobody would waste his time and teamslots to get some Spikes onto the field and even with those 2 around most teams would be better of going for 6 offensive mons and SR only instead of 5 offensive mons and added Spikes.

Bisharps major problem is that most Defogers dont have any trouble dealing with him and he is just so incredibly obvious. Nobody with half a brain will use Defog after he got his Defoger in, he will attack expecting the Bisharp switch dealing 50%+ dmg to him and make it easy to finish him off. I ve got to admit that he can be hard to stop once he gets to +2, but from my experience he usually has to do that by using Swords Dance as Defiant will rarely work against smart players and finding setup opportunitys can be difficult considering his common weaknesses and low bulk especially on the special side.

Calling Thundurus the scariest offensive mon in OU is just hilarious. That label would fit to Chari X or Pinsir but not Thundurus. He is SR weak, frail as hell and compared to other threats in the meta rather weak. 125/115 isnt bad but certainly not thrilling considering that 90 BP Thunderbolt is his best attack. For coverage it has to rely on the weak HP ice and the unreliable Focusblast. Going mixed with Superpower and LO is more reliable but still too weak as it fails to ohko most of the time. It needs LO AND + 2 to be somewhat threatening and good luck getting that +2 without losing 70-80% life in the process. With Leftovers and no boost its just pathetic offensively and still not very sustainable. It can stop Setup sweepers with T-wave which can save your ass but it usually dies in the process (unless the opponent gets haxed) and another pokemon has to take out the sweeper, if your lacking a good answer you might even lose another mon before the sweeper goes down. Talonflame or even Deo-S are just so much better in that regard.


Its certainly not a coincidence that of the 7 mons in S rank 4 are defining stables on HO teams. And while HO isnt bad, its not that good either and I am pretty sure that its popularity is mainly based on how easy it is to use. Its not hated as much as BP but they are so much alike allowing fast and brain afk laddering until you reach the higher levels of play.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I agree with Baharoth, this thread is biased towards offensive pokemon. No pokemon is allowed to have a high rank if they can't deal high damage, but completely frail pokemon who die fast are being promoted to S. It's too much emphasis on the offensive side, while ignoring that stall and balance teams are out there saying no to offense and tearing holes in the meta.

And for frail pokemon, I'm talking to you Bisharp. This thing just doesn't belong on S. It's just too easy to kill. It's fragile, slow, and its priority move is higly dependant on prediction to work, always being forced to guess its opponent's move to choose whether to use Sucker Punch or another offensive move. Miss the prediction, and you are often OHKO'd by the common fighting, fire and ground moves in the tier. Deosharp is amazing, but it's fairly predictable, and it's a one time thing. Again, miss a single prediction, and you've lost two pokemon for nothing. I fear any of the pokemon on S-rank a lot more than Bisharp. It is metagame defining, but all of the A+ pokemon are metagame defining. S-rank pokemon are supposed to be the doomsday machines that put heavy constraints on teambuilding and make big differences in a battle just by being alive, and Bisharp is none of that.

As for the rest.

Charizard X and Aegislash are okay, everybody agrees, move on. Aegislash is the best pokemon in the metagame IMO, and Zard X is multi-set monster that is hard to predict, has good bulk and can kill your team pretty fast.

Zard Y would be A+ if not for Charizard X, but the fact that you never know which Zard it is makes it very dangerous and often gives it a free kill. S is fine.

Thundurus is one of the best special attackers in the tier, with blazing speed and high special attack that can check many things easily. But the prankster Thunder Wave seals the deal. It's a free get out of jail card against sweeping, which can castrate the opponent's main pokemon without them being able to do anything to avoid it. Sure it often dies in the process, but removing your opponent's win condition is usually worth the trade. And its offensive presence means it's very easy to spread paralysis. It's one of the few pokemon both Charizards fear.

Deoxys-D is a hard pick. It defines the Deosharp core much better than Bisharp (who can be replaced by defiant thundurus). The thing about it is how it is almost completely flawless at what it does, stacking hazards for free. It puts a huge pressure on the opponent in the beginning of the battle, since they want to avoid the hazards to stack. I'm not sure if it deserves being S, because I'm not sure if the hazards are worth the rank, but I don't mind if it stays there.

Deoxys-S is an ever harder pick. I just don't have enough experience of losing against it to see how powerful it is. Everyone uses it as a Deo-D-like suicide lead, and we all know it's not really good at that role. As a revenge killer, I don't think I have faced it enough to have an opinion, so I'll pass.

And I'm still not fully convinced at Mega Pinsir's drop from S. IMO it's more threatening than half of the pokemon currently in S. Heck, having Mega Pinsir being ranked lower than Bisharp is hilarious. Mega Pinsir is a one trick pony, but it puts so much pressure on the opponent it's ridiculous. It's attacking power is off the charts, its coverage is great, its priority move is one of the strongest in the tier, it's weakness to rocks is mitigated by the fact it only loses 25% before mega evolving and if it gets a +2 boost (and the opponent doesn't have a thundurus), it's usually GG. Sure the meta is prepared against it, but even the best counters to Pinsir can't switch in that often, as there is only so much you can prepare against a pokemon with 155 attack, a 230 BP move with no drawbacks, a 90 BP priority move, and EQ.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I agree with Baharoth, this thread is biased towards offensive pokemon. No pokemon is allowed to have a high rank if they can't deal high damage, but completely frail pokemon who die fast are being promoted to S. It's too much emphasis on the offensive side, while ignoring that stall and balance teams are out there saying no to offense and tearing holes in the meta.

And for frail pokemon, I'm talking to you Bisharp. This thing just doesn't belong on S. It's just too easy to kill. It's fragile, slow, and its priority move is higly dependant on prediction to work. Miss the prediction, and you are often OHKO'd by the common fighting, fire and ground moves in the tier. Deosharp is amazing, but it's fairly predictable, and it's a one time thing. Fail to predict a single sucker punch and you've lost two pokemon for nothing. I fear any of the pokemon on S-rank a lot more than Bisharp. It is metagame defining, but all of the A+ pokemon are metagame defining. S-rank pokemon are supposed to be the doomsday machines that put heavy constraints on teambuilding and make big differences in a battle just by being alive, and Bisharp is none of that.

As for the rest.

Charizard X and Aegislash are okay, everybody agrees, move on. Aegislash is the best pokemon in the metagame IMO, and Zard X is multi-set monster that is hard to predict, has good bulk and can kill your team pretty fast.

Zard Y would be A+ if not for Charizard X, but the fact that you never know which Zard it is makes it very dangerous and often gives it a free kill. S is fine.

Thundurus is one of the best special attackers in the tier, with blazing speed and high special attack that can check many things easily. But the prankster Thunder Wave seals the deal. It's a free get out of jail card against sweeping, which can castrate the opponent's main pokemon without them being able to do anything to avoid it. Sure it often dies in the process, but removing your opponent's win condition is usually worth the trade. And its offensive presence means it's very easy to spread paralysis. It's one of the few pokemon both Charizards fear.

Deoxys-D is a hard pick. It defines the Deosharp core much better than Bisharp (who can be replaced by defiant thundurus). The thing about it is how it is almost completely flawless at what it does, stacking hazards for free. It puts a huge pressure on the opponent in the beginning of the battle, since they want to avoid the hazards to stack. I'm not sure if it deserves being S, because I'm not sure if the hazards are worth the rank, but I don't mind if it stays there.

Deoxys-S is an ever harder pick. I just don't have enough experience of losing against it to see how powerful it is. Everyone uses it as a Deo-D-like suicide lead, and we all know it's not really good at that role. As a revenge killer, I don't think I have faced it enough to have an opinion, so I'll pass.

And I'm still not fully convinced at Mega Pinsir's drop from S. IMO it's more threatening than half of the pokemon currently in S. Heck, having Mega Pinsir being ranked lower than Bisharp is hilarious.

Mega Pinsir is fine in A+. Walled by Rotom-W, Zapdos, Lando-T, and Skarmory consistently, as well as being revenge killed easily by Talonflame. Also has a massive Stealth Rock weakness that only gives it a few times to set up a match.

As for Bisharp, I don't know why you're calling it frail. 65/100/75 bulk is far from frail, and in combination with his great defensive typing, it can almost always tank a few attacks before going down. As such, I think you're seriously over-exaggerating Bisharp's reliance on Sucker Punch, or even how hard it is to use Sucker Punch. Thanks to Bisharp's good bulk/defensive typing, it can usually afford to mispredict and go for a Knock Off/Iron Head. Even if the attacker does have a super effective STAB against it, Bisharp doesn't have a hard time hitting them with a Sucker Punch, especially if it's been put at +2. (Examples include Excadrill and Garchomp.) Finally, it's really not that hard to predict what someone's going to go for and pick your move accordingly. Even if it was as hard as you say to predict with Sucker Punch, the fact that it could hit and usually KO 50% would still make it a serious threat.

I also absolutely despise the argument of "DeoSharp is predictable". I don't care if it's predictable; it works. Bisharp single-handedly (in combination with Defiant Thundy, who is already S) makes your opponent think very carefully before they Defog. "Does my Latias dare Defog, or risk having Bisharp switch in for free and Pursuit trap me?" This can deter players from going for Defog and, as such, make it so your team can keep hazards on the field. This is important for the teams other sweepers, such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, Mega Pinsir, etc, who utilize hazard damage to wear down the opponent's Pokemon to the point where they can KO.

Overall, thanks to its good bulk, great offensive and defensive typing, it's powerful priority move, and the fact that it can keep hazards up just by existing, Bisharp is definitely one of the best Pokemon in the game right now and, in my opinion, deserving of S-Rank.

 

[Baharoth]

Walled by Rotom-W, Zapdos, Lando-T, and Skarmory

We seem to have a very different understanding of the word "walled". One of these pokemon can wall Pinsir, Skarmory. The others can check Pinsir at full life but thats it.

"Does my Latias dare Defog, or risk having Bisharp switch in for free and Pursuit trap me?"

How about "I ve got my Defoger out which means there is a 100% chance that Bisharp will switch in, so I use Foulplay, Heatwave, HP Fire or what ever to get rid of it on the spot."

 

[koista12]

Even so, you have accomplished your goal of keeping pressure on your opponent. If they defog, you get to plus two. If they go for another move, you still have hazards up, and your Bisharp may still be alive. If its dead, bring out whatever pokemon you have that checks their defogger.