Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Ninja Charizard]

I think it says a lot about this thread that I could make the cookie cutter HO team just by copypasting the S-rank list, and adding a 6th pokemon. Look at the Playstyle of the Week thread, and you'll see people there basically listing all the S-Rank pokemon. It would be fine if HO was undoubtely the best and most viable playstyle in the game, but the trend I'm actually seeing is stall and balance rising on usage and getting high in the ladder. HO is great, but people should stop acting like it is the default metagame. Other things are also as viable as HO.

Even so, you have accomplished your goal of keeping pressure on your opponent. If they defog, you get to plus two. If they go for another move, you still have hazards up, and your Bisharp may still be alive. If its dead, bring out whatever pokemon you have that checks their defogger.

Just pay attention at one fact: if Bisharp dies, you are now at 6x4. Is that worth the hazards? This is the kind of disadvantage that usually decides matches.

I also absolutely despise the argument of "DeoSharp is predictable". I don't care if it's predictable; it works. Bisharp single-handedly (in combination with Defiant Thundy, who is already S) makes your opponent think very carefully before they Defog. "Does my Latias dare Defog, or risk having Bisharp switch in for free and Pursuit trap me?" This can deter players from going for Defog and, as such, make it so your team can keep hazards on the field. This is important for the teams other sweepers, such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, Mega Pinsir, etc, who utilize hazard damage to wear down the opponent's Pokemon to the point where they can KO.

I don't. In this game, predictability = free turns. It's what got Mega Lucario and Genesect into ubers, it's what makes Charizard S-Rank, it's the reason Talonflame is currently losing usage and it was the main argument for Mega Pinsir's downgrade to A+. If you are having a harder time predicting your opponent than they are, you are statistically giving them more turns to attack. I see this game as having a trade-off between optimality and unpredictability, and while a large fraction of the Smogon community thinks optimality is the only thing that matters, unpredictability is a huge factor that can define matches, and is often worth sacrificing optimality for.

With Bisharp, the cost of prediction is on you. You are using a pokemon whose bulk is comparable to Deo-S, who is weak to many common moves and who will often die if it chooses the wrong option between SP and the other moves, because it often can't afford being outsped. It's amazing if you are good at predicting, but it punishes the user hard for failing. The opponent, on the other hand, already knows what are the first 4 moves you are going to choose in the battle, and can bring their best answers to it.

 

[Rosen]

I agree with Hippowdon being moved up to A+. He's one of the best physical walls in OU, both stat-wise and movepool-wise.

I also agree with Bisharp being moved down. Last gen he was UU, and even with the Knock-Off and Defog buff, not much else has changed in his favor. He's physically bulky, but specially, not so much. One-on-one he loses to so many things. Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, Rotom-W, Conkeldurr, Lucario, both Zard forms, Mega Pinsir, Mega Ampharos, Mega Manectric, Breloom, Zapdos, Terrakion, Mega Garchomp, Garchomp, Azumarill, Hippowdon, Quagsire... the list goes on and one. I really don't see the logic in having a niche in possibly getting an attack boost from Defog, which couldn't be more predictable, warranting an S Ranking. There's no reason why it should be above Mega Pinsir. Now, I think Mega Pinsir belongs in A+ rank. It shouldn't move up. Bisharp should move down.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Last gen he was UU

That's irrelevant, this isn't BW2.

and even with the Knock-Off and Defog buff, not much else has changed in his favor.

Well those are pretty big changes.

I do agree with moving it back down to A+ though. I just feel it has too many flaws to warrant S-rank, even though it has some big strengths.

 

[QuickBH]

I agree with Hippowdon being moved up to A+. He's one of the best physical walls in OU, both stat-wise and movepool-wise.

I also agree with Bisharp being moved down. Last gen he was UU, and even with the Knock-Off and Defog buff, not much else has changed in his favor. He's physically bulky, but specially, not so much. One-on-one he loses to so many things. Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, Rotom-W, Conkeldurr, Lucario, both Zard forms, Mega Pinsir, Mega Ampharos, Mega Manectric, Breloom, Zapdos, Terrakion, Mega Garchomp, Garchomp, Azumarill, Hippowdon, Quagsire... the list goes on and one. I really don't see the logic in having a niche in possibly getting an attack boost from Defog, which couldn't be more predictable, warranting an S Ranking. There's no reason why it should be above Mega Pinsir. Now, I think Mega Pinsir belongs in A+ rank. It shouldn't move up. Bisharp should move down.

You forget the steel nerf and the fact that Bisharp can check fairies now too. His main point isn't one on one it's the opportunity he gets with defog pressure. btw none of those pokemon besides Tank Zard X, Mega Chomp, Hippowdon and the fightings would appreciate taking a knock off.(+Sucker Punch) The amount of utility and power he brings is immense and will force bad scenarios which will often lead in a kill to a key threat. Worst comes to worse even if Bisharp fails to kill a Pokemon his utility will hurt their win condition and will open doors for your team to win. He fits this meta near perfectly, and just fits into too many damn teams so well. I believe the fact that he heavily relies on prediction to preserve it's role really prevents it from fitting the category to S rank, and I believe it belongs in A+, but the fact you said Bisharp hasn't gained much from BW2 and the fact that you just mentioned a ton of checks out of context just made me have to comment.

 

[Rosen]

The two most relevant fairies, Azumarill and Mega Mawile, can both destroy Bisharp. But that really isn't the issue. Plenty of other powerful pokemon learn Knock Off and are capable of crippling teams in the same way. Conk, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, Landorus-T, etc.

And people are treating this like Rapid Spin doesn't exist. And the most common spinner, Excadrill, beats Bisharp. Even if you choose to have defog, just kill off Bisharp first. Which really isn't that great if a challenge to do. It does put pressure on the other team, yes, but isn't nearly as threatening as the other S Ranks, or even several A rankers.

I realize that Bisharp has an important niche in OU, but S rank implies little to no flaws. Bisharp has several, but is still very threatening. Which, as everyone tends to be in agreement on, is more fitting of A+.

 

[theV8man]

The two most relevant fairies, Azumarill and Mega Mawile, can both destroy Bisharp. But that really isn't the issue. Plenty of other powerful pokemon learn Knock Off and are capable of crippling teams in the same way. Conk, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, Landorus-T, etc.

And people are treating this like Rapid Spin doesn't exist. And the most common spinner, Excadrill, beats Bisharp. Even if you choose to have defog, just kill off Bisharp first. Which really isn't that great if a challenge to do. It does put pressure on the other team, yes, but isn't nearly as threatening as the other S Ranks, or even several A rankers.

I realize that Bisharp has an important niche in OU, but S rank implies little to no flaws. Bisharp has several, but is still very threatening. Which, as everyone tends to be in agreement on, is more fitting of A+.

Not only can Bisharp pressure the opponent not to put hazards, as well as cripple things with knock off, but after a swords dance, there are so little things that stop it. Azumarill and mega-mawile are both decimated by 2+ iron head, and 2+ sucker punch easily kills exca. The only way you're stopping this thing after a SD is with a quagsire, chesnaught, or other fighting type. It can even kill frail fighting types after s SD with sucker punch, like mienshao. I've used bisharp a lot, and I know it's extremely threatening, and worthy of S rank.

 

[QuickBH]

The two most relevant fairies, Azumarill and Mega Mawile, can both destroy Bisharp. But that really isn't the issue. Plenty of other powerful pokemon learn Knock Off and are capable of crippling teams in the same way. Conk, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, Landorus-T, etc.

And people are treating this like Rapid Spin doesn't exist. And the most common spinner, Excadrill, beats Bisharp. Even if you choose to have defog, just kill off Bisharp first. Which really isn't that great of a challenge to do. It does put pressure on the other team, yes, but isn't nearly as threatening as the other S Ranks, or even several A rankers.

I realize that Bisharp has an important niche in OU, but S rank implies little to no flaws. Bisharp has several, but is still very threatening. Which, as everyone tends to be in agreement on, is more fitting of A+.

Mawile can't switch in on Bisharp unless it's already mega evolved otherwise the vice versa will occur.

Excadrill is the only meta relevant spinner and it's still a check.

Yes, other Pokemon can learn Knock Off, but can they get priority, the ability to pursuit trap, and have a high potential to sweep a team at +2? No. Except like AV Azumarill for the former and even then the power and pressure it brings is less.

Killing Bisharp can be hard as fuck lol most meta relevant checks and counters are either slower or die if Bisharp goes for Knock Off+Sucker Punch/Iron Head, and barring Zapdos, Bisharp can switch in on almost every defogger that has relevance anyways unless it's like HP fighting or HP Fire in sun Lati@s and that isn't terribly common.

I agree with A+, but your reasoning is something I highly disagree with since it greatly undermines bisharp's power.

 

[Karxrida]

One of the main perks Bisharp has over Thundurus as a Defiant user is the ability to switch into most, if not all, Defoggers and immediately put on offensive pressure even if it takes a hit.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 229-270 (82 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 185-218 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 222-262 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 205-242 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 164-194 (58.7 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 83-98 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 16.3% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 446-528 (147.6 - 174.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 492-582 (162.9 - 192.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 163-193 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 327-385 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 72-84 (16.9 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 97-115 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 195-229 (45.9 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I might have missed something, but Bisharp is bulky enough to take anything bar Offensive Zapdos' Heatwave and HP Fighting from the Latis (which costs them a Speed IV and lets you send in something like Life Orb Gengar to check them and prevent Defogging).

Bisharp's Knock Off is also EXTREMELY spammable and will punish anything that switches in, especially at +2.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[TFL]

As a stall player, I'm going to have to disagree with what the lot of you have said earlier this page.

Hyper Offense is the best play style at the moment, especially on ladder. There is a new S rank Pokemon now, Landorus-i. No surprise another Mon commonly seen on HO is here, but it's for good reason. Landorus-i single handedly ROFLstomps every playstyle that is not offensive in nature. Oh, did I mention HO has an inherent advantage vs BP? Rarely has to go out of its way to deal with it, unlike certain styles. There are many stallbreakers they can take advantage of and it's a diverse play style too. Try watching some good players once in a awhile, most of them aren't cookie cutter DeoSharp teams.

Yeah, the S rank are all offensive Mons, but face it, they're better. Except for Charizard Y, which I've been arguing for A+ for quite some time. I'll make it simple: Charizard Y isn't the best wallbreaker and has a terrible weakness to Stealth Rock. "But TFL, muh unpredictability!" Shut up. You're overestimating Charizard Y's utility. It's also in the same boat as Mega Pinsir; everyone and their mother stacks checks for it.

Lets point out what Bisharp does: Its mere presence makes the opponent wary of using Defog, because its attack gets boosted if it happens to switch in. Bisharp has the 2nd strongest Knock Off, a move that can easily cripple switch ins. Bisharp is also capable of sweeping and stopping sweeps with its very strong priority. And it's the only Pokemon capable of Pursuit trapping Aegislash. It always pulls its weight and is always worth the team slot. I can't see how it isn't S.

TL;DR: HO dabess,

-> A+, and keep

in S.

Edit: Even taking that into account, Karxrida, I don't think Charizard Y's utility is worth S rank. I'm ranking them by their viability, and the way I see it, Charizard Y is less viable than X, accounting for everything. Keep in mind that they're being treated as separate Pokemon, not a single entity. They even have separate analyses.

 

[Karxrida]

As a stall player, I'm going to have to disagree with what the lot of you have said earlier this page.

Hyper Offense is the best play style at the moment, especially on ladder. There is a new S rank Pokemon now, Landorus-i. No surprise another Mon commonly seen on HO is here, but it's for good reason. Landorus-i single handedly ROFLstomps every playstyle that is not offensive in nature. Oh, did I mention HO has an inherent advantage vs BP? Rarely has to go out of its way to deal with it, unlike certain styles. There are many stallbreakers they can take advantage of and it's a diverse play style too. Try watching some good players once in a awhile, most of them aren't cookie cutter DeoSharp teams.

Yeah, the S rank are all offensive Mons, but face it, they're better. Except for Charizard Y, which I've been arguing for A+ for quite some time. I'll make it simple: Charizard Y isn't the best wallbreaker and has a terrible weakness to Stealth Rock. "But TFL, muh unpredictability!" Shut up. You're overestimating Charizard Y's utility. It's also in the same boat as Mega Pinsir; everyone and their mother stacks checks for it.

Lets point out what Bisharp does: Its mere presence makes the opponent wary of using Defog, because its attack gets boosted if it happens to switch in. Bisharp has the 2nd strongest Knock Off, a move that can easily cripple switch ins. Bisharp is also capable of sweeping and stopping sweeps with its very strong priority. And it's the only Pokemon capable of Pursuit trapping Aegislash. It always pulls its weight and is always worth the team slot. I can't see how it isn't S.

TL;DR: HO dabess, drop Charizard Y to A+, and keep Bisharp in S.

Zard Y is S-Rank because Zard-X is S-Rank; until you see it Mega Evolve, you can't really counter it effectively without potentially losing something if you guessed wrong. Even then each Mega has like 3 sets that can fuck you over if you guess THAT wrong. For example, Chansey is murdered by Zard Y's carrying Flare Blitz, and Azumarill is crippled if you switch into X only to find out it's Bulky Will-O-Wisp.

 

[NoahStar]

I would also like to point out that the unpredictability of ZardX/Y are even furthered by the fact that both easily fit on many different play styles. You can't look at a team in the preview and say "oh, that team looks like a team where ZardY's sun helps the team" or "there is already a sweeper/DDer on this team so it shouldn't be ZardX." Even dedicated sun teams that have Ninetails could use either Zard.

That, coupled with the fact that each Zard runs completely viably and dangerous lure sets to beat their checks means that you need to know Zard's exact set before dealing with it or else you will be royally fucked over 9 times out of 10.

If anything, both Zard's need to move to S+ xD

 

[Rosen]

I know I seem like I'm making Bisharp seem way less threatening than it is, likely because I haven't really said anything good about him, but that isn't really my intention. You guys already know what makes him good, why point that out?

Listen, my argument isn't that Bisharp is bad It's that he isn't good enough to be S Rank. Mega Pinsir is A+. Nobody seems to be having many qualms about that. I'm making Bisharp seem way worse than he is with my descriptions, yes, but those who say he should remain S Rank are making him seem better than he is. By the logic of Swords Dance + Priority, well... Pinsir has that too. And is much more powerful.

S Rank implies little to no flaws. Bisharp is undeniably very, very good. But it has SEVERAL flaws. I'm intentionally pointing these out. I know Bisharp has several significantly important qualities that him stand out, but everyone already knows his good qualities. Hence my not pointing them out.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Bisharp is not S because it has a lot of counters,
In Gen Vi Dark + Steel is not resisted by much, but has some combos that still exists.
Dark resist Fighting, Dark and Fairy.
Steel resist Fire, Water, Electric and Steel.

This means these combos resist Dark + Steel combination (the only one that Bisharp usually carries).
Fire/Fighting: Infernape and Emboar.
Water/Fighting: Keldeo and Poliwrath
Steel/Fighting: Lucario and Cobalion.
Fire/Dark: Houndoom
Water/Dark: Greninja, Mega Gyarados, Crawdaunt and "Sharpedo".
All these pokemon except Sharpedo are counters to Bisharp.

But this aren't the only one. Given the resistant to Dark (I don't count Steel because Knock Off and priority Sucker Punch), I found more counters and checks:
Fighting types:
Machamp: Not a counter because of Iron Head but a solid check with Dynamicpunch doing 300% to it.
Hariyama: Same thing as Machamp even though it's never seen on OU. But if you find out, CC does 300% to it.
Conkeldurr: A counter because Mach Punch OHKOes it.
Mienshao: Can come from a slow U-turn or a Dark mvoe (specially Sucker Punch) and do 400% damage to it.
Pangoro: Never seen in the OU metagame but if soemone tyries, same as Machamp.
Hawlucha: A solid check (iron Head does maximum 90%), tries to come in a Dark move and Hi Jump Kick with 260% minimum.
Heracross: A counter if Bisharp is Jolly. CC does more than 400%.
Brelloom: Can come in a Dark move (the msot common).
Can come in any move and use Mach punch.
Virizion: Not the greatest choice but can Close Combat him andsurvive a Iron head.
Terrakion: Even though he is weak to Iron head, Terrakion can predict another move and because it's faster, defeat it.
Meloetta. Is enither a check or a counter if it entert as Meloetta-A. If it already is Meloetta-P easy OHKO with Close Combat.
Chesnaught: One of few defensive fighters = a counter with Hammer Arm. Also, Spiky Shield damage Bisharp

Other npn-Fighting that usually carries Fighting type attacks:
Close Combat: Justified/Flash Fire Arcanine, Staraptor (the standard set has Reckless.

Cross Chop: Tough Claws Barbaracle even at +0 (requires heavy prediction); and Electivire, which sometimes appear and with bad prediction causes a lot of problems.

Dynamicpunch No Guard Golurk (not very reiuable, it's not the only pokemon)

Focus Blast: The non-Fighting types that could run it are Mega Charizard Y, Nidoking, Alakazam, Gengar, MegaAmpharos, Drizzle Politoed, Gardevoir, Mega Gardevoir, Deoxys-S, Abomasnow, Tangrowth, Victini, Zoroark, Reuniclus, Accelgor, Hydreigon, Tornadus, Tornadus_T, Thundurus Thundurus-T, Landorus, Landorus-T, Meloetta, Heliolisk, Goodra and Noivern. And the Fighting types Infernape, Cobalion, Keldeo (the CS has a filler slot).

Jump Kick from Chlorophyll Sawsbuck.

Superpower rom Azumarill, Darmanitan, Braviary, Malamar, Crawdaunt, Emboar (STAB), and more pokemont hat learn it from tutor.

Any user of Aura Sphere that are ancan function as a Special attacker.

Not only that, but Bisharp is 2x weak to Fire and ground. We know how EQ is common in the metagame and Fire has the tendency of being more on special attacker (and it's where it's more unpredictable).

Apart that Bisharp struggles with some Water, Electric, Bug and Fairy moves, specially if they are specially based and the pokemon it's faster and can take 1 Sucker Punch at +0.

For a pokemon to have an S rank it doesn'0t have to be so mkany checks (basically any Fighting type) and revenge killers. Bisharp is OHKOed by every Fighting move relevant int he metagame, almost STAB Earthquake or Earth Power, the physuical Fire moves that are used as a STAB, and 90% of the Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Heat Wave/Overheat in the OU metagame.





Compared to toher S rank:
Aegislash: Has very little counters (it has any "true counter" for him), has some checks (but many of them can't KO certain variants), has King Shield to make any physiucal attacker halve the attack in contact, and has variuous sets. And it's relavily difficult to revenge kill.

MCharizard-X. It's not easy to revenge kill after a DD, and with that, it 2HKo the entire metagame except very specified threats. Also, it has bulky DD, version, status version, wallbreaker, mixed, ...
mCharizard Y: it's more predictable but Fire Blast in Sun hurts from 159 Base SpA and the rest of movepool to check the rest of the metagame. It can even use lures to attrat some of this checks reducing the counters to Chansey alone. It's not that easy to revenge kill.

Thundurus: Unlike Bisharp, it gets 111 Speed which means it's not easy to revenge kill. And you can't stop set up a Nasty Plot because it usually carries prankster. Also, has two sets with different functions (Defiant ones and Prankster ones), both are very effective, one is certain teams, the other is almsot every non-stall team.

Deoxys-S: It's a lead or not? It's a revenge killer? What is gonna set up apart of Stealth Rock? Screens, eather, Thunder Wave, Trick, Spikes. What moves has longisde Psycho Boost? How is his EV spread and item of choice? And given how fast it is, it's very difficult to stop his function int he metagame.

Deoxys-D: I explained that Cresselia is a better wall that Deoxys-D by his way more HP and a better ability.. In fact, the only emoves that Cresselia doesn't have are Stealth Rock, Spikes, Taunt and Recover (Cresselia has Moonlight) (even though hazards is the key of using Deoxys-D). It's a great wall but Deoxys-D doesn'0t have the power or versality of Deoxys-S and requires team support to function at his fullest potential, which means is more A+ than S.

 

[Rosen]

Bisharp is not S because it has a lot of counters,
In Gen Vi Dark + Steel is not resisted by much, but has some combos that still exists.
Dark resist Fighting, Dark and Fairy.
Steel resist Fire, Water, Electric and Steel.

This means these combos resist Dark + Steel combination (the only one that Bisharp usually carries).
Fire/Fighting: Infernape and Emboar.
Water/Fighting: Keldeo and Poliwrath
Steel/Fighting: Lucario and Cobalion.
Fire/Dark: Houndoom
Water/Dark: Greninja, Mega Gyarados, Crawdaunt and "Sharpedo".
All these pokemon except Sharpedo are counters to Bisharp.

But this aren't the only one. Given the resistant to Dark (I don't count Steel because Knock Off and priority Sucker Punch), I found more counters and checks:
Fighting types:
Machamp: Not a counter because of Iron Head but a solid check with Dynamicpunch doing 300% to it.
Hariyama: Same thing as Machamp even though it's never seen on OU. But if you find out, CC does 300% to it.
Conkeldurr: A counter because Mach Punch OHKOes it.
Mienshao: Can come from a slow U-turn or a Dark mvoe (specially Sucker Punch) and do 400% damage to it.
Pangoro: Never seen in the OU metagame but if soemone tyries, same as Machamp.
Hawlucha: A solid check (iron Head does maximum 90%), tries to come in a Dark move and Hi Jump Kick with 260% minimum.
Heracross: A counter if Bisharp is Jolly. CC does more than 400%.
Brelloom: Can come in a Dark move (the msot common).
Can come in any move and use Mach punch.
Virizion: Not the greatest choice but can Close Combat him andsurvive a Iron head.
Terrakion: Even though he is weak to Iron head, Terrakion can predict another move and because it's faster, defeat it.
Meloetta. Is enither a check or a counter if it entert as Meloetta-A. If it already is Meloetta-P easy OHKO with Close Combat.
Chesnaught: One of few defensive fighters = a counter with Hammer Arm. Also, Spiky Shield damage Bisharp

Other npn-Fighting that usually carries Fighting type attacks:
Close Combat: Justified/Flash Fire Arcanine, Staraptor (the standard set has Reckless.

Cross Chop: Tough Claws Barbaracle even at +0 (requires heavy prediction); and Electivire, which sometimes appear and with bad prediction causes a lot of problems.

Dynamicpunch No Guard Golurk (not very reiuable, it's not the only pokemon)

Focus Blast: The non-Fighting types that could run it are Mega Charizard Y, Nidoking, Alakazam, Gengar, MegaAmpharos, Drizzle Politoed, Gardevoir, Mega Gardevoir, Deoxys-S, Abomasnow, Tangrowth, Victini, Zoroark, Reuniclus, Accelgor, Hydreigon, Tornadus, Tornadus_T, Thundurus Thundurus-T, Landorus, Landorus-T, Meloetta, Heliolisk, Goodra and Noivern. And the Fighting types Infernape, Cobalion, Keldeo (the CS has a filler slot).

Jump Kick from Chlorophyll Sawsbuck.

Superpower rom Azumarill, Darmanitan, Braviary, Malamar, Crawdaunt, Emboar (STAB), and more pokemont hat learn it from tutor.

Any user of Aura Sphere that are ancan function as a Special attacker.

Not only that, but Bisharp is 2x weak to Fire and ground. We know how EQ is common in the metagame and Fire has the tendency of being more on special attacker (and it's where it's more unpredictable).

Apart that Bisharp struggles with some Water, Electric, Bug and Fairy moves, specially if they are specially based and the pokemon it's faster and can take 1 Sucker Punch at +0.

For a pokemon to have an S rank it doesn'0t have to be so mkany checks (basically any Fighting type) and revenge killers. Bisharp is OHKOed by every Fighting move relevant int he metagame, almost STAB Earthquake or Earth Power, the physuical Fire moves that are used as a STAB, and 90% of the Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Heat Wave/Overheat in the OU metagame.





Compared to toher S rank:
Aegislash: Has very little counters (it has any "true counter" for him), has some checks (but many of them can't KO certain variants), has King Shield to make any physiucal attacker halve the attack in contact, and has variuous sets. And it's relavily difficult to revenge kill.

MCharizard-X. It's not easy to revenge kill after a DD, and with that, it 2HKo the entire metagame except very specified threats. Also, it has bulky DD, version, status version, wallbreaker, mixed, ...
mCharizard Y: it's more predictable but Fire Blast in Sun hurts from 159 Base SpA and the rest of movepool to check the rest of the metagame. It can even use lures to attrat some of this checks reducing the counters to Chansey alone. It's not that easy to revenge kill.

Thundurus: Unlike Bisharp, it gets 111 Speed which means it's not easy to revenge kill. And you can't stop set up a Nasty Plot because it usually carries prankster. Also, has two sets with different functions (Defiant ones and Prankster ones), both are very effective, one is certain teams, the other is almsot every non-stall team.

Deoxys-S: It's a lead or not? It's a revenge killer? What is gonna set up apart of Stealth Rock? Screens, eather, Thunder Wave, Trick, Spikes. What moves has longisde Psycho Boost? How is his EV spread and item of choice? And given how fast it is, it's very difficult to stop his function int he metagame.

Deoxys-D: I explained that Cresselia is a better wall that Deoxys-D by his way more HP and a better ability.. In fact, the only emoves that Cresselia doesn't have are Stealth Rock, Spikes, Taunt and Recover (Cresselia has Moonlight) (even though hazards is the key of using Deoxys-D). It's a great wall but Deoxys-D doesn'0t have the power or versality of Deoxys-S and requires team support to function at his fullest potential, which means is more A+ than S.

I agree with all of this except the Deoxys bit. I think Deo-D is much more fitting of S rank than Deo-S. Deo-D isn't a wall, he's a bulky screener or hazard stacker. In those two roles, he outclasses Deo-S. He doesn't have as many options, but the ones they share, Deo-D does better

 

[theV8man]

While Bisharp (like any other mon) has its share of weaknesses and counters, there is no other pokemon that does its job better than it, which is killing defoggers, spamming knock off, breaking most walls, and having the ability to sweep.

 

[koista12]

Fire/Fighting: Infernape and Emboar.

When was the last time you saw either of those in OU? Because i have never seen either of them this gen

Water/Fighting: Keldeo and Poliwrath
Poliwrath, really?

Steel/Fighting: Lucario and Cobalion.
Yet again, two pokemon I have not seen, since the ban of Mega Luke for lucario.

Fire/Dark: Houndoom
UU and rocking

Water/Dark: Greninja, Mega Gyarados, Crawdaunt and "Sharpedo".
Greninja dies to a resisted +2 sucker punch. Mega Gyarados is a check. the other two are not relevant to OU.


Bisharp is 4X weak to fighting, and Mega Zard y is weak to rock type moves, which are also fairly common. A 4X weakness does not instantly exclude a pokemn from S-rank, especially, when the only common fighting types are Terrakion and Conkelldur. Focus Miss, while common, is Focus Miss.


Almost every other pokemon mentioned relies on Focus Miss or isnt OU, with the exception of Azumarill and Superpower.

Please, stop using crappy pokemon that have no business being in OU as arguments to keep Bisharp out of S-rank.

And lol at Cresselia being better than Deo-D. Deo-D is not a wall, its a hazards stacker.

 

[Baharoth]

One of the main perks Bisharp has over Thundurus as a Defiant user is the ability to switch into most, if not all, Defoggers and immediately put on offensive pressure even if it takes a hit.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 229-270 (82 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 185-218 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 222-262 (79.5 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Hidden Power Fire vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 205-242 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 164-194 (58.7 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 83-98 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- 16.3% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latias: 446-528 (147.6 - 174.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 492-582 (162.9 - 192.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 163-193 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 327-385 (85.3 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 72-84 (16.9 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 142-168 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 97-115 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 195-229 (45.9 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I might have missed something, but Bisharp is bulky enough to take anything bar Offensive Zapdos' Heatwave and HP Fighting from the Latis (which costs them a Speed IV and lets you send in something like Life Orb Gengar to check them and prevent Defogging).

Bisharp's Knock Off is also EXTREMELY spammable and will punish anything that switches in, especially at +2.

Edit: Ninja'd

Actually your calcs show perfectly that Bisharp CANT switch into most Defogers. It takes 50% dmg from Zapdos Thunderbolt when switching in and cant do anything back without +2 which it wont get in that situation. The first knock off does 50% back, but Zapdos can just roost it of or simply kill Bisharp, its also important to note that Zapdos usually outspeeds so Bisharp will have to go for Suckerpunch instead of Knock off.

Against Mandi it can do even less. Bisharps Ironhead does like 30% unboosted, Mandis Foulplay does 30% as well. Difference here is that Mandi has Roost. If Bisharp uses SD it will take ~70% from Mandi and die.

Full def Skarmory can simply defog and phaze bisharp out afterwards. Yes its massively crippled afterwards but its job is done. The only Defoger Bisharp is good against ist Latios/Latias and as your calc shows, he takes massive damage from HP fire to a point where he might even die with SR on the field.

While Bisharp (like any other mon) has its share of weaknesses and counters, there is no other pokemon that does its job better than it, which is killing defoggers, spamming knock off, breaking most walls, and having the ability to sweep.

When it comes to killing Defogers and abusing Defiant Thundurus does that job better. He fares far better against Zapdos, Mandibuzz and Skarmory and doesnt have to rely on unreliable priority to sweep.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

As a stall player, I'm going to have to disagree with what the lot of you have said earlier this page.

Hyper Offense is the best play style at the moment, especially on ladder. There is a new S rank Pokemon now, Landorus-i. No surprise another Mon commonly seen on HO is here, but it's for good reason. Landorus-i single handedly ROFLstomps every playstyle that is not offensive in nature. Oh, did I mention HO has an inherent advantage vs BP? Rarely has to go out of its way to deal with it, unlike certain styles. There are many stallbreakers they can take advantage of and it's a diverse play style too. Try watching some good players once in a awhile, most of them aren't cookie cutter DeoSharp teams.

Yeah, the S rank are all offensive Mons, but face it, they're better. Except for Charizard Y, which I've been arguing for A+ for quite some time. I'll make it simple: Charizard Y isn't the best wallbreaker and has a terrible weakness to Stealth Rock. "But TFL, muh unpredictability!" Shut up. You're overestimating Charizard Y's utility. It's also in the same boat as Mega Pinsir; everyone and their mother stacks checks for it.

Lets point out what Bisharp does: Its mere presence makes the opponent wary of using Defog, because its attack gets boosted if it happens to switch in. Bisharp has the 2nd strongest Knock Off, a move that can easily cripple switch ins. Bisharp is also capable of sweeping and stopping sweeps with its very strong priority. And it's the only Pokemon capable of Pursuit trapping Aegislash. It always pulls its weight and is always worth the team slot. I can't see how it isn't S.

TL;DR: HO dabess,

-> A+, and keep

in S.

Edit: Even taking that into account, Karxrida, I don't think Charizard Y's utility is worth S rank. I'm ranking them by their viability, and the way I see it, Charizard Y is less viable than X, accounting for everything. Keep in mind that they're being treated as separate Pokemon, not a single entity. They even have separate analyses.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember seeing somewhere that Offense > Stall > Balance > Offense. If that's true then it makes sense for you to lose to HO. In my case, I like to use balanced teams, and I tend to have a lot more trouble to beat stall than offense.

 

[Rosen]

Fire/Fighting: Infernape and Emboar.

When was the last time you saw either of those in OU? Because i have never seen either of them this gen

Water/Fighting: Keldeo and Poliwrath
Poliwrath, really?

Steel/Fighting: Lucario and Cobalion.
Yet again, two pokemon I have not seen, since the ban of Mega Luke for lucario.

Fire/Dark: Houndoom
UU and rocking

Water/Dark: Greninja, Mega Gyarados, Crawdaunt and "Sharpedo".
Greninja dies to a resisted +2 sucker punch. Mega Gyarados is a check. the other two are not relevant to OU.


Bisharp is 4X weak to fighting, and Mega Zard y is weak to rock type moves, which are also fairly common. A 4X weakness does not instantly exclude a pokemn from S-rank, especially, when the only common fighting types are Terrakion and Conkelldur. Focus Miss, while common, is Focus Miss.


Almost every other pokemon mentioned relies on Focus Miss or isnt OU, with the exception of Azumarill and Superpower.

Please, stop using crappy pokemon that have no business being in OU as arguments to keep Bisharp out of S-rank.

And lol at Cresselia being better than Deo-D. Deo-D is not a wall, its a hazards stacker.

I see Infernape and Keldeo on a fairly regular basis

 

[koista12]

a) How do you qoute?

b) infernape is almost UU. keldeo, i never said wasnt a counter

 

[QuickBH]

I see Infernape and Keldeo on a fairly regular basis

Infernape is a rarity and is mostly seen by me lmao but Keldeo is common as fuck. Btw Crawdaunt has relevance as a strongeth wall breaker but yeah he's also niche.

 

[theV8man]

There are 4 commonly seen pokemon that can switch into boosted Bisharp. Infernape, Keldeo, Conkeldurr. That's pretty damn good.

 

[dingbat]

a) How do you qoute?

Just use the reply button from someone else's post if you want to quote someone else. If you want to quote multiple people, you can use both reply buttons and both quotes will show in your comment. You can also snip out parts of the quote if you want to quote specific comments from another person, as I did. :)

 

[koista12]

Just use the reply button from someone else's post if you want to quote someone else. If you want to quote multiple people, you can use both reply buttons and both quotes will show in your comment. You can also snip out parts of the quote if you want to quote specific comments from another person, as I did. :)

Thank you

 

[Ninja Charizard]

It doesn't work like that, Ninja Charizard. Pokemon isn't so much a Rock Paper Scissors game when it comes to play styles, it depends on what's in those play styles/teams. Hyper Offense has a sizable advantage versus both Stall and Balanced teams, if the player has a well built team and decides to use a good wallbreaker, ie. Landorus-i. Every team is like that, but no other play style has as many options to deal with those team archetypes as HO does.

Yeah I assume it's way more complicated than that, but it kind of makes sense for these relations to exist. I personally don't think hyper offense is that hard to beat, but maybe that's because I use a bunch of pokemon who can take hits and hit back hard.