Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Karxrida]

Actually your calcs show perfectly that Bisharp CANT switch into most Defogers. It takes 50% dmg from Zapdos Thunderbolt when switching in and cant do anything back without +2 which it wont get in that situation. The first knock off does 50% back, but Zapdos can just roost it of or simply kill Bisharp, its also important to note that Zapdos usually outspeeds so Bisharp will have to go for Suckerpunch instead of Knock off.

Against Mandi it can do even less. Bisharps Ironhead does like 30% unboosted, Mandis Foulplay does 30% as well. Difference here is that Mandi has Roost. If Bisharp uses SD it will take ~70% from Mandi and die.

Full def Skarmory can simply defog and phaze bisharp out afterwards. Yes its massively crippled afterwards but its job is done. The only Defoger Bisharp is good against ist Latios/Latias and as your calc shows, he takes massive damage from HP fire to a point where he might even die with SR on the field.



When it comes to killing Defogers and abusing Defiant Thundurus does that job better. He fares far better against Zapdos, Mandibuzz and Skarmory and doesnt have to rely on unreliable priority to sweep.

I know from personal experience that Mandi DOES NOT beat Bisharp. Also, even if you kill it, its job (preventing you from Defogging) is done and it has crippled your Defogger to the point where it'll be in KO range of one of its other teammates. That's the beauty of Bisharp; it's either your win condition or opens up an opportunity for another win condition.

Also, Thundurus lacks the resistances to switch into Defoggers safely (it doesn't resist ANY of the most common Defoggers' attacks), making it more difficult at doing its job.

 

[jbtc10]

I know from personal experience that Mandi DOES NOT beat Bisharp. Also, even if you kill it, its job (preventing you from Defogging) is done and it has crippled your Defogger to the point where it'll be in KO range of one of its other teammates. That's the beauty of Bisharp; it's either your win condition or opens up an opportunity for another win condition.

Also, Thundurus lacks the resistances to switch into Defoggers safely (it doesn't resist ANY of the most common Defoggers' attacks), making it more difficult at doing its job.

Mandibuzz does beat Bisharp if it predicts the obvious switch-in and hits it with Foul Play, outside of insane flinch hax.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 126-149 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 82-97 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 40.7% chance to 3HKO

With the LO recoil, Foul Play is a guaranteed 3HKO, while Bisharp can't beat Mandi unless he goes for a Swords Dance, in which case he is KO'd by another Foul Play. Mandi has Roost to just stall him out if he keeps attacking and can sometimes emerge from the encounter with high enough health to tank a hit from the next check and get off a Defog afterward.

 

[Karxrida]

Mandibuzz does beat Bisharp if it predicts the obvious switch-in and hits it with Foul Play, outside of insane flinch hax.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 126-149 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 82-97 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 40.7% chance to 3HKO

With the LO recoil, Foul Play is a guaranteed 3HKO, while Bisharp can't beat Mandi unless he goes for a Swords Dance, in which case he is KO'd by another Foul Play. Mandi has Roost to just stall him out if he keeps attacking and can sometimes emerge from the encounter with high enough health to tank a hit from the next check and get off a Defog afterward.

You're forgetting Knock Off removing Lefties, not every Bisharp runs Life Orb, and SR damage means Mandi won't be at 100% by the time Bisharp gets in.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Mandi also has the option to Knock Off Bisharp's Life Orb.

 

[Baharoth]

You're forgetting Knock Off removing Lefties, not every Bisharp runs Life Orb, and SR damage means Mandi won't be at 100% by the time Bisharp gets in.

Unboosted Ironhead does 30% and its the best attack Bisharp has against Mandy. Even with SR and without lefties the only way Bisharp can win this is with flinch hax. Bisharp wins if he gets the defiant boost when switching in, if not he will lose and mandi will be close to full health afterwards and can probably Defog after Bisharp is down.

 

[Karxrida]

Unboosted Ironhead does 30% and its the best attack Bisharp has against Mandy. Even with SR and without lefties the only way Bisharp can win this is with flinch hax. Bisharp wins if he gets the defiant boost when switching in, if not he will lose and mandi will be close to full health afterwards and can probably Defog afterwards.

It doesn't matter whether or not you lose Bisharp as long as it kept hte hazards up and weakened your Defogger. It's still done its job.

 

[Baharoth]

Depends on what your expecting from it. As it is Bisharp will die and Mandy will probably be on high life afterwards as he can just roost up over and over again. Then HO will probably bring in something to force out mandi. So yes, Bisharp will delay the hazard removal for a few turns until the defoger can get back in. So one could say it did its job. However, you paid for that with losing 2 pokemon and probably have only SR + 1 layer of Spikes on the field. If you think thats a good trade and worth it, fine. Imo thats a horrible payoff considering the cost. If it was SR + 3 layers on a consistent basis it might be worth it but even 2 layers are rare.

 

[Karxrida]

Depends on what your expecting from it. As it is Bisharp will die and Mandy will probably be on high life afterwards as he can just roost up over and over again. Then HO will probably bring in something to force out mandi. So yes, Bisharp will delay the hazard removal for a few turns until the defoger can get back in. So one could say it did its job. However, you paid for that with losing 2 pokemon and probably have only SR + 1 layer of Spikes on the field. If you think thats a good trade and worth it, fine. Imo thats a horrible payoff considering the cost. If it was SR + 3 layers on a consistent basis it might be worth it but even 2 layers are rare.

Mandibuzz HAS to attack every turn to beat Bisharp otherwise it might SD and you lose. By the time Bisharp is dead (if you succeed), Mandi will have lost any item it had, you'll be at less than 40%, AND your opponent gets a free switch to whatever it wants that can easily deal with you that you won't be able to Roost in front of. It doesn't matter is you beat Bisharp, you were unable to remove the hazards and still lost your Defogger.

 

[Halcyon.]

Why are we talking about where or not Bisharp beats Mandibuzz in X specific situation ?_? It doesn't matter at all whether Bisharp can beat Mandibuzz if it switches in on a move that isn't Defog. If you prevent the opponent from going for Defog, then Bisharp did it's job and you can go into Thundurus or whatever and threaten out said Mandibuzz or outright KO it.

The point is that Bisharp is one of the best Pokemon in the tier. It's decently prepared for but it still does what it does best: prevent Defog and fucking stall. I don't know if that means it's S rank or not, but it's definitely high A+ if not. I can understand why some people might not think HO is the best play style in general simply because a lot of people have been using bulky offense in tour lately, but you can't deny that HO is the best ladder strategy. It takes very little time to build and has good match up against most other major play styles. All the Pokemon in S with the exception of Charizard Y and possibly Bisharp easily deserve their spots. They are all meta-defining Pokemon.

 

[Baharoth]

Ok one last try... Bisharps Ironhead does 30% unboosted and 60-70 at +2, same for Mandis Foulplay. Knock off does almost no damage. Mandi can roost when ever it wants, it will still be able to take a hit and Ko back in return. If Bisharp switches into foulplay he will start @ 70% meaning that after he used SD he gets ohkoed. If he gets lucky and mandi roosts that turn yes then mandi will be on low life afterwards, if not and Mandi uses FP the turn you boost your dead and Mandi is close to full life. The chances are completely against Bisharp in this matchup. As I said, if you think losing Bisharp and Deo-D like that to preserve your hazards for lets say 5? more turns is worth it fine, imo its not.

I can understand why some people might not think HO is the best play style in general simply because a lot of people have been using bulky offense in tour lately, but you can't deny that HO is the best ladder strategy.

Its the easiest and therefor most popular ladder strategy aside from BP yes. Its easy to play, easy to build and the games are usually short. I am not saying its not a viable strategy in high level play, it is, but everything can be good if build well and used by a competent player so thats nothing special.

 

[Karxrida]

Ok one last try... Bisharps Ironhead does 30% unboosted and 60-70 at +2, same for Mandis Foulplay. Knock off does almost no damage. Mandi can roost when ever it wants, it will still be able to take a hit and Ko back in return. If Bisharp switches into foulplay he will start @ 70% meaning that after he used SD he gets ohkoed. If he gets lucky and mandi roosts that turn yes then mandi will be on low life afterwards, if not and Mandi uses FP the turn you boost your dead and Mandi is close to full life. The chances are completely against Bisharp in this matchup. As I said, if you think losing Bisharp and Deo-D like that to preserve your hazards for lets say 5? more turns is worth it fine, imo its not.



Its the easiest and therefor most popular ladder strategy aside from BP yes. Its easy to play, easy to build and the games are usually short. I am not saying its not a viable strategy in high level play, it is, but everything can be good if build well and used by a competent player so thats nothing special.

It doesn't matter if Knock Off does barely any damage when it denies you Lefties, and Foul Play is not a guaranteed 2HKO even if Bisharp Swords Dances the turn right after taking the first. Also, Mandi beating Bisharp doesn't matter because it still can't Defog and Bisharp still wins regardless, even if it died doing so.

 

[Rosen]

Why are we hammering home this Bisharp VS Mandibuzz thing? Who gives a shit? If you want to beat Bisharp, you sure as hell aren't going to be using a Mandibuzz against it.

My point:
Bisharp stops defog. Yes. It's the best at that. But NOT EVERYONE RUNS DEFOG. It lacks the versatility of Aegislash. It lacks the wallbreaking power and speed of Mega Charizard X. It doesn't have the most powerful Fire Blast in the game like Mega Charizard. It isn't a hazard stacking defensive threat like Deo-D, or a particularly fast one like Deo-S (who I think should be moved to A+, but at least Deo-S has some versatility). It can't get a priority boosting move with Prankster. It doesn't rest in a unique speed tier with excellent mixed offensive stats.

Bisharp is strong, but not particularly fast or exceptionally bulky. It's powerful, but it's main use is to stop Defog. Which, to me, sounds almost niche.

Does a pokemon whose main reason for use is to stop Defog really deserve to be placed amongst any of these? Really?

All the other S-Ranked threats do not have specific niches because they don't need them to be immediately threatening. Bisharp's main reason for existence is to stop Defog, and while it does that the best, it's simply too close to being a niche role to be paired with some of the most dangerous pokemon in the game.

 

[Karxrida]

Why are we hammering home this Bisharp VS Mandibuzz thing? Who gives a shit? If you want to beat Bisharp, you sure as hell aren't going to be using a Mandibuzz against it.

My point:
Bisharp stops defog. Yes. It's the best at that. But NOT EVERYONE RUNS DEFOG. It lacks the versatility of Aegislash. It lacks the wallbreaking power and speed of Mega Charizard X. It doesn't have the most powerful Fire Blast in the game like Mega Charizard. It isn't a hazard stacking defensive threat like Deo-D, or a particularly fast one like Deo-S (who I think should be moved to A+, but at least Deo-S has some versatility). It can't get a priority boosting move with Prankster. It doesn't rest in a unique speed tier with excellent mixed offensive stats.

Bisharp is strong, but not particularly fast or exceptionally bulky. It's powerful, but it's main use is to stop Defog. Which, to me, sounds almost niche.

Does a pokemon whose main reason for use is to stop Defog really deserve to be placed amongst any of these? Really?

All the other S-Ranked threats do not have specific niches because they don't need them to be immediately threatening. Bisharp's main reason for existence is to stop Defog, and while it does that the best, it's simply too close to being a niche role to be paired with some of the most dangerous pokemon in the game.

Bisharp is not niche. Defiant doesn't just stop Defog, it punishes Intimidaters like Lando-T and the occasional stat drop from stuff like Shadow Ball. It has one of the most powerful Knock Offs in the game and can easily wall break AND sweep. Its checks and counters go down in number every time it gets an attack boost (whether from Defiant or Swords Dance) and it is the BEST Aegislash check in the game. It can beat/cripple everything in S rank right now and forces you to second guess yourself when it's on the field thanks to Sucker Punch. Its STAB Iron Head lets it 2HKO all the relevant Fairies in OU and beat non-Scarf Tyranitar. It defines HO right now and is fucking amazing, sweeping through entire teams with only one Defiant boost.

 

[Tressed]

Ok one last try... Bisharps Ironhead does 30% unboosted and 60-70 at +2, same for Mandis Foulplay. Knock off does almost no damage. Mandi can roost when ever it wants, it will still be able to take a hit and Ko back in return. If Bisharp switches into foulplay he will start @ 70% meaning that after he used SD he gets ohkoed. If he gets lucky and mandi roosts that turn yes then mandi will be on low life afterwards, if not and Mandi uses FP the turn you boost your dead and Mandi is close to full life. The chances are completely against Bisharp in this matchup. As I said, if you think losing Bisharp and Deo-D like that to preserve your hazards for lets say 5? more turns is worth it fine, imo its not.

Made a quick flow chart in MS Paint to show the situation.

Hide

Either way, the HO player wins that matchup.

Why are we hammering home this Bisharp VS Mandibuzz thing? Who gives a shit? If you want to beat Bisharp, you sure as hell aren't going to be using a Mandibuzz against it.

My point:
Bisharp stops defog. Yes. It's the best at that. But NOT EVERYONE RUNS DEFOG. It lacks the versatility of Aegislash. It lacks the wallbreaking power and speed of Mega Charizard X. It doesn't have the most powerful Fire Blast in the game like Mega Charizard. It isn't a hazard stacking defensive threat like Deo-D, or a particularly fast one like Deo-S (who I think should be moved to A+, but at least Deo-S has some versatility). It can't get a priority boosting move with Prankster. It doesn't rest in a unique speed tier with excellent mixed offensive stats.

Bisharp is strong, but not particularly fast or exceptionally bulky. It's powerful, but it's main use is to stop Defog. Which, to me, sounds almost niche.

Does a pokemon whose main reason for use is to stop Defog really deserve to be placed amongst any of these? Really?

All the other S-Ranked threats do not have specific niches because they don't need them to be immediately threatening. Bisharp's main reason for existence is to stop Defog, and while it does that the best, it's simply too close to being a niche role to be paired with some of the most dangerous pokemon in the game.

You're looking into the Defog thing way too closely. Being able to strip items away with a brutally powerful Knock Off is reason enough, but Bisharp also is one of the hardest hitting priority users in the tier, so it functions as a revenge killer and a hell of a hard hitter even if your opponent isn't packing Defog at all. Its a win condition, revenge killer, and stallbreaker all in one, that's enough of a reason for me for it to go to S.

 

[Karxrida]

Relevant Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92393038
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92502025
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92559527
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92576496
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-94572496
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-95469789
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99607475
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-100662422
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-103624387
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-104119153
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-104790761
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-110748499
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114676773

Here are a bunch of replays of Bisharp in action. I probably made some stupid plays and haven't seen most of these in a while, but a good chuck are at the +1600 rating on the ladder.

Also, how do you hide stuff again?
EDIT @ Below: Thanks.

 

[Rosen]

Bisharp is not niche. Defiant doesn't just stop Defog, it punishes Intimidaters like Lando-T and the occasional stat drop from stuff like Shadow Ball. It has one of the most powerful Knock Offs in the game and can easily wall break AND sweep. Its checks and counters go down in number every time it gets an attack boost (whether from Defiant or Swords Dance) and it is the BEST Aegislash check in the game. It can beat/cripple everything in S rank right now and forces you to second guess yourself when it's on the field thanks to Sucker Punch. Its STAB Iron Head lets it 2HKO all the relevant Fairies in OU and beat non-Scarf Tyranitar. It defines HO right now and is fucking amazing, sweeping through entire teams with only one Defiant boost.

Right, several things with this

1. Intimidate and other things never really warranted the heavy use of Bisharp so heavily before. It's good, yeah, but Thundurus gets it too. And it's arguably much better on Thundurus.
2. It has the most powerful Knock Off in the game. Yes it does. And Mega Pinsir has the most powerful Return, Latios the most powerful Draco Meteor, Tyranitar the most powerful Crunch, etc. While having the most powerful Knock Off is very respectable, one move alone isn't going to put him leaps and bounds above every other threat.
3. Like hell Bisharp is the best Aegislash counter. I think you mean Mandibuzz, as Bisharp is not at all a good Aegislash counter. Kings Shield negates any stat boosts to attack at +2, and sucker punch fails to OHKO in defense form, at which Aegislash OHKOs with sacred sword
4. Literally any fighting type with mach punch destroys Bisharp
5. "It can beat/cripple everything in S rank right now" yeah no. I'd love to see a replay where Bisharp beats the bulky Mega Charizard X set. After a Will-O-Wisp, even at +2 Bisharp can't do shit to Zard, who gets OHKOd, and Zard roosts back to health.

Now, nobody in their right mind would leave Aegislash in against Bisharp, but here's some calcs just for grins:
After the King's Shield stat drop:
-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-187 (48.1 - 57.7%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 480-568 (172 - 203.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Say you're running a healthy Bisharp with Adamant nature and Life Orb, whose Attack is neutral after dropping from +2 against a bulky Aegislash:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Aegislash-Shield: 273-322 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Guys, I'm not saying he isn't good. He is. But he's just not on the same level as the other S-Rankers.

Edit: Fixed the part about King's Shield, I fucked up there. Still, when unboosted, Bulky Aegislash beats Bisharp.

 

[Flamebot]

Relevant Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92393038
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92502025
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92559527
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-92576496
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-94572496
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-95469789
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-99607475
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-100662422
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-103624387
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-104119153
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-104790761
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-110748499
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114676773

Here are a bunch of replays of Bisharp in action. I probably made some stupid plays and haven't seen most of these in a while, but a good chuck are at the +1600 rating on the ladder.

Also, how do you hide stuff again?
EDIT @ Below: Thanks.

Nice replays.:D

 

[Pipotchi]

Right, several things with this

1. Intimidate and other things never really warranted the heavy use of Bisharp so heavily before. It's good, yeah, but Thundurus gets it too. And it's arguably much better on Thundurus.
2. It has the most powerful Knock Off in the game. Yes it does. And Mega Pinsir has the most powerful Return, Latios the most powerful Draco Meteor, Tyranitar the most powerful Crunch, etc. While having the most powerful Knock Off is very respectable, one move alone isn't going to put him leaps and bounds above every other threat.
3. Like hell Bisharp is the best Aegislash counter. I think you mean Mandibuzz, as Bisharp is not at all a good Aegislash counter. Kings Shield negates any stat boosts to attack at +2, and sucker punch fails to OHKO in defense form, at which Aegislash OHKOs with sacred sword
4. Literally any fighting type with mach punch destroys Bisharp
5. "It can beat/cripple everything in S rank right now" yeah no. I'd love to see a replay where Bisharp beats the bulky Mega Charizard X set. After a Will-O-Wisp, even at +2 Bisharp can't do shit to Zard, who gets OHKOd, and Zard roosts back to health.

Now, nobody in their right mind would leave Aegislash in against Bisharp, but here's some calcs just for grins:
After the King's Shield stat drop:
-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-187 (48.1 - 57.7%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 480-568 (172 - 203.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Say you're running a healthy Bisharp with Adamant nature and Life Orb, whose Attack is neutral after dropping from +2 against a bulky Aegislash:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Aegislash-Shield: 273-322 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Guys, I'm not saying he isn't good. He is. But he's just not on the same level as the other S-Rankers.

Its impossible to drop Bisharp's attack with King's Shield, because it gets boosted right back up +2 due to defiant

which is why he is such a good aegislash check

 

[Ender Wiggin]

Right, several things with this

1. Intimidate and other things never really warranted the heavy use of Bisharp so heavily before. It's good, yeah, but Thundurus gets it too. And it's arguably much better on Thundurus.
2. It has the most powerful Knock Off in the game. Yes it does. And Mega Pinsir has the most powerful Return, Latios the most powerful Draco Meteor, Tyranitar the most powerful Crunch, etc. While having the most powerful Knock Off is very respectable, one move alone isn't going to put him leaps and bounds above every other threat.
3. Like hell Bisharp is the best Aegislash counter. I think you mean Mandibuzz, as Bisharp is not at all a good Aegislash counter. Kings Shield negates any stat boosts to attack at +2, and sucker punch fails to OHKO in defense form, at which Aegislash OHKOs with sacred sword
4. Literally any fighting type with mach punch destroys Bisharp
5. "It can beat/cripple everything in S rank right now" yeah no. I'd love to see a replay where Bisharp beats the bulky Mega Charizard X set. After a Will-O-Wisp, even at +2 Bisharp can't do shit to Zard, who gets OHKOd, and Zard roosts back to health.

Now, nobody in their right mind would leave Aegislash in against Bisharp, but here's some calcs just for grins:
After the King's Shield stat drop:
-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-187 (48.1 - 57.7%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 480-568 (172 - 203.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Say you're running a healthy Bisharp with Adamant nature and Life Orb, whose Attack is neutral after dropping from +2 against a bulky Aegislash:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Aegislash-Shield: 273-322 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Guys, I'm not saying he isn't good. He is. But he's just not on the same level as the other S-Rankers.

I'm kings shield doesn't exactly lower bisharps attack. Might wanna recalc that.

Edit: Greninja'd

 

[Karxrida]

Right, several things with this

1. Intimidate and other things never really warranted the heavy use of Bisharp so heavily before. It's good, yeah, but Thundurus gets it too. And it's arguably much better on Thundurus.
2. It has the most powerful Knock Off in the game. Yes it does. And Mega Pinsir has the most powerful Return, Latios the most powerful Draco Meteor, Tyranitar the most powerful Crunch, etc. While having the most powerful Knock Off is very respectable, one move alone isn't going to put him leaps and bounds above every other threat.
3. Like hell Bisharp is the best Aegislash counter. I think you mean Mandibuzz, as Bisharp is not at all a good Aegislash counter. Kings Shield negates any stat boosts to attack at +2, and sucker punch fails to OHKO in defense form, at which Aegislash OHKOs with sacred sword
4. Literally any fighting type with mach punch destroys Bisharp
5. "It can beat/cripple everything in S rank right now" yeah no. I'd love to see a replay where Bisharp beats the bulky Mega Charizard X set. After a Will-O-Wisp, even at +2 Bisharp can't do shit to Zard, who gets OHKOd, and Zard roosts back to health.

Now, nobody in their right mind would leave Aegislash in against Bisharp, but here's some calcs just for grins:
After the King's Shield stat drop:
-2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 156-187 (48.1 - 57.7%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 480-568 (172 - 203.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Say you're running a healthy Bisharp with Adamant nature and Life Orb, whose Attack is neutral after dropping from +2 against a bulky Aegislash:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Aegislash-Shield: 273-322 (84.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Guys, I'm not saying he isn't good. He is. But he's just not on the same level as the other S-Rankers.

1.) Thundurus cannot switch into any Defoggers because it lacks the resistances. The Latis can Draco Meteor, Mandibuzz's Foul Play isn't resisted, and some Intimidaters like Mega Mawile can still beat Thundurus.
2.) Bisharp also has the most powerful Sucker Punch and one of the most powerful Iron Heads.
3.) I SAID CHECK READ MY POST
4.) Conkeldurr doesn't like taking a Knock Off (which can happen when it switches in) and does not outprioritze Bisharp. Also, Aegislash is a common Bisharp counter, forcing Conk to predict and pontentialy lose if it uses Knock Off while Bisharp stays in.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 230-270 (55.5 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 174-206 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Oh, and T-Tar is x4 weak to Fighting and was still S-Rank last Gen.
5.) I said CAN beat. I never said it beat them all in every scenario. Also:
+2 252+ Atk Dread Plate burned Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 153-180 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb burned Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 165-195 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It can still OHKO you after SR when burned and there's the chance it predicted you wouldn't attack and decided to use Knock Off.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Fire/Fighting: Infernape and Emboar.

When was the last time you saw either of those in OU? Because i have never seen either of them this gen

Water/Fighting: Keldeo and Poliwrath
Poliwrath, really?

Steel/Fighting: Lucario and Cobalion.
Yet again, two pokemon I have not seen, since the ban of Mega Luke for lucario.

Fire/Dark: Houndoom
UU and rocking

Water/Dark: Greninja, Mega Gyarados, Crawdaunt and "Sharpedo".
Greninja dies to a resisted +2 sucker punch. Mega Gyarados is a check. the other two are not relevant to OU.


Bisharp is 4X weak to fighting, and Mega Zard y is weak to rock type moves, which are also fairly common. A 4X weakness does not instantly exclude a pokemn from S-rank, especially, when the only common fighting types are Terrakion and Conkelldur. Focus Miss, while common, is Focus Miss.


Almost every other pokemon mentioned relies on Focus Miss or isnt OU, with the exception of Azumarill and Superpower.

Please, stop using crappy pokemon that have no business being in OU as arguments to keep Bisharp out of S-rank.

And lol at Cresselia being better than Deo-D. Deo-D is not a wall, its a hazards stacker.

I forgot saying that bold pokemon are viable and italic pokemon are usable in the metagame. I put Sharpedo in "" because it's not a counter or a hard check by it's extremely fraility.

And Mega Gyaeados is a counter unless Bisharo run Brick Break or X-Scissor and I'm sure neither OHKO Gyarados.

The thing is that a pokemon in S eank shouldn't hav a few (5-10) counters, a lot of checks and various revenge killers.

Bisharp has more checks and counters than almost all the A+ rank and part of A rank.

And the Charizard Y is not comparable, because Rock types are only a revenge killer (which us debarable in many cases) thanks to coverage and the ones you find in OU doesn't take a sun boosted Fire Blast well except Tyranitar, Diancie (unreleased) and double resists.

Amd Mandibuzz is a hard check of Bisharp.

If I have time, I will explain why Tyranitar was S rank in Gen V if you didn't notice already.

 

[Rosen]

Fixed the Defiant + King's Shield thing. Fucked up that bit there.

Regarding Tyranitar.

It has better bulk, better mixed offensive stats, and is a weather setter. The most offensively dangerous and specially bulky weather setter. Hence why it was so dangerous last gen.

This gen, I agree that Bisharp is more dangerous than Tyranitar.

And Mandibuzz is still the best Aegislash counter.

Also, Bisharp does not have the most powerful Sucker Punch. That goes to Mega Absol.

 

[theV8man]

Also, Bisharp does not have the most powerful Sucker Punch. That goes to Mega Absol.

I'm pretty sure bisharp has a more powerful sucker punch, considering it usually runs adamant with life orb. Also, crawdaunt has the most powerful knock off, not bisharp.

 

[Rosen]

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 105-125 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 93-109 (27.8 - 32.6%) -- 77.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not a huge difference, but yeah you're right theV8man

The real winner tho:
252+ Atk Choice Band Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 120-142 (35.9 - 42.5%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Not that it's relevant)

That Crawdaunt Knock Off tho:
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 164-195 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 126-149 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[NotSoClutch]

Can we move up Chesnaught please? It is a pretty solid counter or check to a lot of top ranked threats as well as having a form of reliable recovery and the ability to act as a pivot spike setter. Chesnaught is also no slouch offensively either. Although its main stabs are kinda mediocre in hammer arm and seed bomb chesnaught has the ability to beat many offensive threats that want to setup on it with moves like stone edge and even has taunt to shut down any wall that wants to try to status chesnaught. Without Chesnaught's 4mss i would say it deserves A rank, but since it most certainly does, I would like to nominate Chesnaught for B+