Venomoth @ Focus Sash/Black Sludge, maybe?
Ability: Wonder Skin
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Baton Pass
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder/Substitute
- *insert attack here*
Remember him? Just something to think about.
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Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains
- Thread starter haunter
- Start date
- Status
Venomoth @ Focus Sash/Black Sludge, maybe?
Ability: Wonder Skin
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Baton Pass
- Quiver Dance
- Sleep Powder/Substitute
- *insert attack here*
Remember him? Just something to think about.
Hey Jukain , first off thank you very much for the replays, they were very informative and helped me confirm a lot of what I've been saying. As promised, I watched each one of them and will write my thoughts down below each of the below replays.
I think this replay does great job of showcasing why scoli is so much better then ninjask. Here we have scolipede setting up multiple iron defenses in front of a mega gyarados, a very powerful OU threat. The massive defense boost combined with the speed boost was all sylv needed to not give a single eff about the entire rest of the team. Note how only 2 mons were used this entire battle. This supports my opinion that capping the number of BP users would do little to weaken the stupid amount of support iron defense scoli offers to the team, as sylveon didn't even need BP to sweep the enemy team. Heck, it didn't even really need to be sylveon, any decently bulky mon with subs would've sufficed.
This replay is borderline identical to the first, except replace megados with bisharp, another very powerful OU threat. Once again, only 2 mons were used, and once again, it really didn't even need to be sylveon on the receiving end, any decently bulky mon would've worked fine. Very little to say that has not already been said.
This is a much more interesting replay, as it showcases the power of Jukain's teammates other then scoli + sylveon. However, once again, scoli proves that it is able to find multiple setup opportunities against mega heracross and azumaril. Very few pokemon scream "THIS IS NOT SETUP BAIT!!!!" quite like these two, and the second defense pass to espeon was what allowed jukain to win the game by preventing ttar or azumaril from having any meaningful impact.http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114741246
I think this shows that even quick pass scoli is pretty stupid. Once again we have scoli setting up in the face of a mega-dos, this time with taunt, not giving a single eff about anything it did. The defense boosts allowed lando-I to swap in without any difficulty what-so-ever, allowing it to easily threaten the megados out. It then ohko's aeigislash for absolutely free, with zero cost to the team. This lead allowed Jukain to make multiple momentum preserving sacrifices, ending with scoli being able to come in again and setup speed for espeon to sweep.
This is another good example of just how varied the number of threats scoli can setup in the face of. Here we have scoli setting up in the face of trickscarf rotom, one of the game's top anti-leads and SD megazor, one of the game's most powerful priority users. Once he had his defense buffs, he passed to vaporeon, who was able to pull things off like take multiple volt-turns from rotom and scizor (one of which was a crit) while still having enough left to take a garchomp outrage (it only took 12%). At this point, he got a free swap to sylv, and then another free swap to espeon, and it was GG. This would not have been possible had they not gotten that trivial +6 defense, making them unapproachable from the physical side.
Hey look, a replay where scolipede wasn't absolutely paramount to victory. Scoli doesn't do anything here that ninjask could not have done. It appears the threat of talonflame coming in at anytime and killing scoli before he could pass his boosts was more then enough to discourage Jukain from bringing him back in. It's pretty clear that in this case, vaporeon's ability to setup multiple iron defenses in front of his team was what allowed Jukain to have victory here, as opposed to any contribution scoli might've had. Also of note that the opposing team lacked any visible forms of taunt, setup, or phasing, meaning that this was likely a very bad matchup for him. Not entirely sure what to make of this, other then BP is powerful even without iron defense scoli.
Here's another replay showing that BP does not need iron defense scoli to be strong. Ninjask could have quite literally done the exact same thing (providing EP and seed flare were shaymin's only 2 attack moves). Once again I note the lack of taunt or phase attempts, as well as the lack of any attempt to counter setup. That being said, it is once again difficult to attribute victory to any one teammate.
TL;DR In more then half of all the replays posted, scolipede's ability to setup iron defense in front of virtually every physical threat in the tier at little to no risk to itself was absolutely crucial to Jukain's success. Furthermore, nearly all of these teams are fairly offensive, if not hyper offensive. This supports my position that it is indeed iron defense scolipede that is breaking BP teams versus offensive teams. That being said, there is a lack of BP versus stall in this replay. If you (or anyone else) could provide me some replays of BP versus stall, I would be grateful.
My stance is unchanged: ban ingrain / aqua ring smeargle and ban iron defense scolipede.
I think this replay does great job of showcasing why scoli is so much better then ninjask. Here we have scolipede setting up multiple iron defenses in front of a mega gyarados, a very powerful OU threat. The massive defense boost combined with the speed boost was all sylv needed to not give a single eff about the entire rest of the team. Note how only 2 mons were used this entire battle. This supports my opinion that capping the number of BP users would do little to weaken the stupid amount of support iron defense scoli offers to the team, as sylveon didn't even need BP to sweep the enemy team. Heck, it didn't even really need to be sylveon, any decently bulky mon with subs would've sufficed.
This replay is borderline identical to the first, except replace megados with bisharp, another very powerful OU threat. Once again, only 2 mons were used, and once again, it really didn't even need to be sylveon on the receiving end, any decently bulky mon would've worked fine. Very little to say that has not already been said.
This is a much more interesting replay, as it showcases the power of Jukain's teammates other then scoli + sylveon. However, once again, scoli proves that it is able to find multiple setup opportunities against mega heracross and azumaril. Very few pokemon scream "THIS IS NOT SETUP BAIT!!!!" quite like these two, and the second defense pass to espeon was what allowed jukain to win the game by preventing ttar or azumaril from having any meaningful impact.http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114741246
I think this shows that even quick pass scoli is pretty stupid. Once again we have scoli setting up in the face of a mega-dos, this time with taunt, not giving a single eff about anything it did. The defense boosts allowed lando-I to swap in without any difficulty what-so-ever, allowing it to easily threaten the megados out. It then ohko's aeigislash for absolutely free, with zero cost to the team. This lead allowed Jukain to make multiple momentum preserving sacrifices, ending with scoli being able to come in again and setup speed for espeon to sweep.
This is another good example of just how varied the number of threats scoli can setup in the face of. Here we have scoli setting up in the face of trickscarf rotom, one of the game's top anti-leads and SD megazor, one of the game's most powerful priority users. Once he had his defense buffs, he passed to vaporeon, who was able to pull things off like take multiple volt-turns from rotom and scizor (one of which was a crit) while still having enough left to take a garchomp outrage (it only took 12%). At this point, he got a free swap to sylv, and then another free swap to espeon, and it was GG. This would not have been possible had they not gotten that trivial +6 defense, making them unapproachable from the physical side.
Hey look, a replay where scolipede wasn't absolutely paramount to victory. Scoli doesn't do anything here that ninjask could not have done. It appears the threat of talonflame coming in at anytime and killing scoli before he could pass his boosts was more then enough to discourage Jukain from bringing him back in. It's pretty clear that in this case, vaporeon's ability to setup multiple iron defenses in front of his team was what allowed Jukain to have victory here, as opposed to any contribution scoli might've had. Also of note that the opposing team lacked any visible forms of taunt, setup, or phasing, meaning that this was likely a very bad matchup for him. Not entirely sure what to make of this, other then BP is powerful even without iron defense scoli.
Here's another replay showing that BP does not need iron defense scoli to be strong. Ninjask could have quite literally done the exact same thing (providing EP and seed flare were shaymin's only 2 attack moves). Once again I note the lack of taunt or phase attempts, as well as the lack of any attempt to counter setup. That being said, it is once again difficult to attribute victory to any one teammate.
Here we a replay where speed boost was paramount to Jukain's success, but where what scoli did was indistinguishable from what a standard ninjask would have done (obviously the far more badass CB ninjask would've u-turned for a free kill, but that's for another day). To the surprise of absolutely no one, Iron Defense scoli is as good or better then any BP set ninjask could run in almost every conceivable scenario.
TL;DR In more then half of all the replays posted, scolipede's ability to setup iron defense in front of virtually every physical threat in the tier at little to no risk to itself was absolutely crucial to Jukain's success. Furthermore, nearly all of these teams are fairly offensive, if not hyper offensive. This supports my position that it is indeed iron defense scolipede that is breaking BP teams versus offensive teams. That being said, there is a lack of BP versus stall in this replay. If you (or anyone else) could provide me some replays of BP versus stall, I would be grateful.
My stance is unchanged: ban ingrain / aqua ring smeargle and ban iron defense scolipede.
Has anyone tried playing on the pokemon online servers? I know this is about smogon's meta, but I play on the android app every now and then it's a completely different story. I am currently in the top 100 (1500 points) in XY OU and there are very little baton pass teams. I'm playing as Baton Pass and have yet to face another Baton Pass team. Actually I've lost against the same "cookie cutter" RMT stall team with Scald + Roar + Roar + Sleep Talk Mega Gyarados three times now (all three different players).
So, while I know people will probably discredit the fact that its on Pokemon Online and not showdown, but it brings up some interesting topics.
1. It seems stall can effectively use Mega Gyarados and faceroll victory against Baton Pass. Ingrain can't really stop Mega Gyarados since its faster and can 2hko with Scald and Sleep Talk to bypass Spore.
2. Someone has found a way to incorperate this Baton Pass counter into their stall team and have a great deal of success, so much so that several others have copied his team.
3. In a way, this stall team facerolls to victory every time against Baton Pass. It's essientially decided at game preview. Interesting to see Baton Pass on the opposite side of the fence now...
I think it may still be a bit to early to nerf or ban baton pass. We need to allow more time for players to recognize Baton Pass as a legitimate threat and come up with creative solutions. To me, this Mega Gyarados team is an example of how easy it really is to beat Baton Pass if you acknowledge it as a threat and incorporate a reliable counter in your team. Overcentralizing? Maybe, but I think given more time more creative solutions will emerge. Suspect testing will likely yield similar results, and lead to Mold Breaker Taunt or Roar becoming more appreciated in the meta. (Just how Smogon states Magic Bounce is the best ability because of Entry Hazards, I would expect to see Mold Breaker recieving more praise in the future.
edit: Mega Gyarados can be killed by Sylveon yes, but there are an abundance of Pokemon willing to switch into Sylveon and pose a threat. Baton Pass could still win, but only if the stall player makes a big mistake.
So, while I know people will probably discredit the fact that its on Pokemon Online and not showdown, but it brings up some interesting topics.
1. It seems stall can effectively use Mega Gyarados and faceroll victory against Baton Pass. Ingrain can't really stop Mega Gyarados since its faster and can 2hko with Scald and Sleep Talk to bypass Spore.
2. Someone has found a way to incorperate this Baton Pass counter into their stall team and have a great deal of success, so much so that several others have copied his team.
3. In a way, this stall team facerolls to victory every time against Baton Pass. It's essientially decided at game preview. Interesting to see Baton Pass on the opposite side of the fence now...
I think it may still be a bit to early to nerf or ban baton pass. We need to allow more time for players to recognize Baton Pass as a legitimate threat and come up with creative solutions. To me, this Mega Gyarados team is an example of how easy it really is to beat Baton Pass if you acknowledge it as a threat and incorporate a reliable counter in your team. Overcentralizing? Maybe, but I think given more time more creative solutions will emerge. Suspect testing will likely yield similar results, and lead to Mold Breaker Taunt or Roar becoming more appreciated in the meta. (Just how Smogon states Magic Bounce is the best ability because of Entry Hazards, I would expect to see Mold Breaker recieving more praise in the future.
edit: Mega Gyarados can be killed by Sylveon yes, but there are an abundance of Pokemon willing to switch into Sylveon and pose a threat. Baton Pass could still win, but only if the stall player makes a big mistake.
I still see a big issue with baton passers when they start a chain: special attack. Now whether it's true that ou is shifting toward stronger physical offencive mons, it's hard for a baton pass to handle a stron special offencive pressure early on the chain. scolipede's iron defence is useless, vaporeon is good but far from unbrakable, same goes for sylveon. Thundurus and mega char-y obliterate vaporeon, scolipede fears talonflame ad deo-s, to say a few, manaphy boosts faster than any possible special defence boost, mega pinsir dances in the face if iron defence and hits as hard as ever. Faster boosting and special offensive pressure early on the chain bother baton pass a lot.
Hiphiphooray It pleases me greatly that stall players are finding ways to work around BP. However, even if roar mega-dos is indeed a viable stallmon, to require roar megados to beat BP is still very overcentralizing (as you have granted). I stand by my position that a ban on ingrain / aqua ring smeargle should be enough for stall players to have an even matchup versus BP. Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on iron defense scoli versus offensive teams? As I've stated earlier, I find that it has far too many opportunities to setup a defense boost on top of the already important speed boost, and that is far too much for many otherwise good offensive teams to handle.
Aldrein Sadly, many special mons cannot hope to prevent scolo from setting up his iron defense, at which point he can swap to sylv, who hard-counters most special threats even without any boosts. With +2 defense, sylv proves to be nearly impossible to check from the offensive or defensive side. I posted some calcs earlier to show how difficult it is to ohko something with non-negligible bulk.
Aldrein Sadly, many special mons cannot hope to prevent scolo from setting up his iron defense, at which point he can swap to sylv, who hard-counters most special threats even without any boosts. With +2 defense, sylv proves to be nearly impossible to check from the offensive or defensive side. I posted some calcs earlier to show how difficult it is to ohko something with non-negligible bulk.
Right, so argue for or against the ban of Scolipede, instead of "But collateral damageLOL!" Does it actually take a OU Council member himself to tell you Smogon doesn't care about 'preserving a Pokemon's other (unused) sets'? Does it take an official Smogon member to tell you they operate and prefer simple, efficient bans over complex engineered clauses?
No one said Scolipede is broken. So remove that preconceived notion from your mind.
You just stated exactly what separates Scolipede from Ninjask. Scolipede does everything Ninjask can do with more versatility, bulk, and reliability, and able to boost Def or Atk simultaneously with Speed. And unlike Ninjask, Scolipede can reliably restart the chain and set up multiple times over the course of the match. Mentioning Ninjask is useless, and comparing it to Scolipede is meaningless.
What does Scolipede in the end do for a BP team, you ask? It doesn't just provide "relatively quick and easy Def and Spe boosts". It provides auto-speed initiative at x3 for the entire chain, with a trivial x2 Def, that can't be stopped or interrupted. Nothing you can do can stop it from acquiring at least x2 or x3 Spe.
Scolipede is the root of the problem, not Ingrain, Magic Bounce or the numbers of Baton Passers. Baton Pass is dominating the ladder due to Scolipede, not 6 Passers. 6 Pass team has never been broken, uncompetitive or overcentralizing up until Scolipede. It's only until a Pokemon with overwhelming support, the ability to boost Speed, Def and/or Atk simultaneously, and reliably boost many times over the course of the match, that has made Baton Pass an overcentralizing top-ladder presence.
Tho I do agree, doing almost anything to Scol really makes BP alot less viable.
Sure there is Zapados, but he can't boost defense like Scol which that alone make it less viable. And as soon as (correct me if I'm wrong), Vaporeon faints it is like fighting another team. Well one with less great pokemon.
What about banning a combination of Scolipede + Espeon on the same team? Scolipede can be Taunted / Roared out without Magic Bounce blocking those moves, and Espeon can easily be defeated without Scolipede's Defense boosts. This seems a much simpler solution than having to do a Suspect test to determine whether a team with 3 or 4 Baton Passers is broken or not.
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Because I refuted your arguments, and find them weak and misinformed, you take it as an "ad hominem." To the man, I never insulted or flamed you personally; I just destroyed your arguments.
1. Smogon is reluctant to write a complex ban, especially a useless one such as "Aqua Ring + Ingrain + Iron Defense + ____" Aqua Ring, Ingrain, Smeargle, or Iron Defense are not problems, and never have been.
2. Smogon doesn't complex ban varied sets anyways; so give up on that.
2. Scolipede offers overwhelming support against any archetype, under all conditions, even hyper offensive. In the presence of Talonflame and Pinsir (which aren't on every team by the way), Scolipede simply doesn't lead.
Edit: It seems after some actual research, WebBrowser sees and understands Scolipedes overwhelming support for the Baton Pass team, and makes it viable to auto-win with just 2 other partners in crime, sometimes only one (Sylveon or Espeon).
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Here's one more suggestion:
Ban Substitute/Protect + Speed Boost on a set. That lets priority (Talonflame, Mega Pinsir) reliably check Scolipede, and keeps it from getting a free +1 speed pass on Turn 2 in most other situations. It also forces the BP player to make a decision Turn 1 instead of auto Protect/Sub.
Thoughts?
Ban Substitute/Protect + Speed Boost on a set. That lets priority (Talonflame, Mega Pinsir) reliably check Scolipede, and keeps it from getting a free +1 speed pass on Turn 2 in most other situations. It also forces the BP player to make a decision Turn 1 instead of auto Protect/Sub.
Thoughts?
Look Over Zealous I've been doing this at least longer than you have, stop acting like you have some superior knowledge of banning philosophy. An OU council member has already stated his preference for a specific complex ban, even! You're entirely off base with your argument. We ban what is broken. Scolipede is not the broken factor, it is the entire chain. This has been repeated over and over, and you still have yet to refute this adequately.
I have 2 big issues with Pokémons bans (like the idea of banning Scolipede) in this situation:
1- Both Espeon and Scolipede are making BP broken, if we ban any of the two it became manageable because MAbsol and Ninjask are just not good replacements and will weaken the team ALOT, but any choose we made will be really unfair, I remember the most unfair ban I've saw on Smogon which was Landorus-I ban last gen, he only got banned because of the Ttar-Keldeo-Lando core, if the council had put Keldeo in his place on the suspect test the pony would be the one to get the boot, but instead Lando got banned and Keldeo stayed OU till the end of the generation, so yes any choose we made between the two will be really unfair with the other mon and the players who use any of those mons, also "BP was not broken before of Scolipede" is not a good argument to defend it being choose in place of Espeon, because I'm almost sure (unless someone proves otherwise) Non-Espeon BP is as manageable as Non-Scolipede BP.
2- The second problem I have is that it really weakens the pro-nerf side (and I'm totally for a nerf) if we go into a suspect test, basically some people may find BP broken but prefer to deal with it than ban an otherwise balanced mon and thus BP may even avoid a nerf for a longer time, despite the majority finding it broken.
Also IMO limiting the number of BP mons in a team is hardly a complex ban because it have some precedence in the form of Sleep and Species Clause who are somewhat akin to what a BP clause would be.
1- Both Espeon and Scolipede are making BP broken, if we ban any of the two it became manageable because MAbsol and Ninjask are just not good replacements and will weaken the team ALOT, but any choose we made will be really unfair, I remember the most unfair ban I've saw on Smogon which was Landorus-I ban last gen, he only got banned because of the Ttar-Keldeo-Lando core, if the council had put Keldeo in his place on the suspect test the pony would be the one to get the boot, but instead Lando got banned and Keldeo stayed OU till the end of the generation, so yes any choose we made between the two will be really unfair with the other mon and the players who use any of those mons, also "BP was not broken before of Scolipede" is not a good argument to defend it being choose in place of Espeon, because I'm almost sure (unless someone proves otherwise) Non-Espeon BP is as manageable as Non-Scolipede BP.
2- The second problem I have is that it really weakens the pro-nerf side (and I'm totally for a nerf) if we go into a suspect test, basically some people may find BP broken but prefer to deal with it than ban an otherwise balanced mon and thus BP may even avoid a nerf for a longer time, despite the majority finding it broken.
Also IMO limiting the number of BP mons in a team is hardly a complex ban because it have some precedence in the form of Sleep and Species Clause who are somewhat akin to what a BP clause would be.
can we please stop acting like scolipede or any single pokemon is the problem! There are two reasons for this
1: Banning them wouldn't even do enough. With the exception of possibly espeon (and bp is usable without espeon just harder), there is nothing you could ban that would solve it. If you ban scolipede, they use ninjask, and while the team is a bit shittier, it hardly matters in the end. If you ban sylveon, they use umbreon, and the team is a bit shittier, but it can still work. However, one could say "why not just ban espeoon"
2: These pokemon aren't broken without the team. if you use normal espeon in ou, or any of these mons besides arguably scolipede, they are mediocre to bad. It is ridiculous to ban something that isn't at all useful outside of one archetype.
SO PLEASE, stop throwing out suggestions about banning certain mons or certain movesets, that is inneficient and unnecessary.
Also shoutout to Jukain for being a voice of reason and somehow keeping his cool amidst this shitheap.
OH, AND BOLDING YOUR WORDS DOESN'T MAKE THEM ANY MORE TRUE
1: Banning them wouldn't even do enough. With the exception of possibly espeon (and bp is usable without espeon just harder), there is nothing you could ban that would solve it. If you ban scolipede, they use ninjask, and while the team is a bit shittier, it hardly matters in the end. If you ban sylveon, they use umbreon, and the team is a bit shittier, but it can still work. However, one could say "why not just ban espeoon"
2: These pokemon aren't broken without the team. if you use normal espeon in ou, or any of these mons besides arguably scolipede, they are mediocre to bad. It is ridiculous to ban something that isn't at all useful outside of one archetype.
SO PLEASE, stop throwing out suggestions about banning certain mons or certain movesets, that is inneficient and unnecessary.
Also shoutout to Jukain for being a voice of reason and somehow keeping his cool amidst this shitheap.
OH, AND BOLDING YOUR WORDS DOESN'T MAKE THEM ANY MORE TRUE
I did refute it: read my arguments. And I didn't act like anything; I just presented my arguments for the very real possibility of Scolipede's ban, and refuted other people's absurd arguments for the complex ban of Ingrain, Aqua Ring, etc.
Haunter has not actually made a decision, nor has the OU Council. He might prefer a clause of 3 Baton Passers in order to make the archetype more manageable, but it hasn't been tested. And keep in mind, I didn't state a clause won't work. I just questioned whether a complex engineered ban is more effective than banning the root of the actual problem, Scolipede.
We didn't issue a complex Baton Pass clause before, so why now? Because of Scolipede. It's the only new tool, an overwhelming support tool, besides Mr Mime's type change and the introduction of Sylveon. Before, a 6 man Baton Pass was of no concern or problem. It wasn't a top ladder presence. Why? Because we didn't have a bulky, versatile, and reliable support Pokemon that boosts Speed freely and Def trivially, with the ability to restart the chains numerous times over the course of a single match.
If Smogon bans Scolipede, we go back to Baton Pass in 5th Gen, with the inclusion of Sylveon. No auto-speed initiative, no free or trivial acquired chain-reboots, no ridiculous support functionality on one Pokemon.
If we issue an unnecessarily complex clause, we kill the archetype of the chain, and turn Baton Pass into a concentrated half-pass with the same problem: Scolipede.
I don't think it's a good idea. Scol Is viable outside of BP, and (IIRC all sets run protect). And I think it drop to RU or UU.
Idk, I'm just against nerfing him to oblivion.
Also guys, just to say this, Aqua Ring does not have the same "trapping" ability ingrain does. The extra recovery is annoying, but it's not on the same level as ingrain, which prevents phasing.
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Before I start infracting someone, can someone inform me why Aqua Ring is so good on BP? Ingrain I get, it stops switching, but if there are actually no real benefits to Aqua Ring, then I will start handing out infractions. Certain users are hyping this up, and not a single player I have talked to, has been able to tell me why this move is good. If there is no high level competitive merit to Aqua Ring, then these users should not be posting within this thread.
Re quoting:
Re quoting:
If Baton Pass is too powerful against Offensive teams: BAN SCOLIPEDE FROM OU
If Baton Pass is too powerful against Stall teams: BAN SMEARGLE FROM USING INGRAIN
That's the simplest solution you can get to 'fix' Baton Pass. Both of these are viable as proven by several other users. Neither of these solutions are complex.
IMHO, we should wait a significant amount of time before we try to nerf anything, just to let the meta evolve and see what happens. WebBowser, I mentioned the use of Mega Gyarados on stall increasing, which is just one example. I think over time we will see more useful option emerge in the meta (i.e. it may not be overcentralizing given adequate time). The problem is that players need to first recognize Baton Pass as a threat that isn't going away from some insta-ban, then modify their team and test it. Team building isn't an easy process, so I would expect it to take time. So far, players have found a great way to utilize Mega Gyarados on Stall teams. There may be more, but the problem is that we won't know unless we give it time!
And furthermore, why hasn't anyone mentioned the impact of the meta on Baton Pass? Whirlwind is overcentralizing in that every Baton Pass team requires Ingrain or Espeon. Perish Song is overcentralizing in that every Baton Pass team requires Mr. Mime. I think this sort of logic is dumb in general. If a playstyle is inherently weak to specific styles then you build your team to counter it. Baton Pass is inherently weaker to Stall on paper, so the entire concept of a defensive Baton Pass team is build around being the ultimate stall counter. It just has the added benefit that people have a teambuilding advantage when using Baton Pass so they can create this team much faster than an ordinary team would be able to (so we can find the best Baton Pass team to fit the meta much faster than someone can find the best stall team to fit the meta).
In short: WAIT until we do anything. If the meta has gone to trash or Baton Pass is too powerful, then we need to address what aspect of it is broken. From there we either Ban Smeargle using Ingrain (Helping Stall teams) or we ban Scolipede (Helping Offensive teams) or both.
Their argument is that it gives enough passive regen to beat Seismic Toss spam (which is generally considered the best option for stall to beat Baton Pass). I don't think it's infraction worthy, but I also don't think Aqua Ring is relevant at all... No one will ever use Smeagle specifically for Aqua Ring or run Aqua Ring on Vaporeon (who has much better options in Scald, Roar, 101 Subs, and Acid Armor).
If Baton Pass is too powerful against Stall teams: BAN SMEARGLE FROM USING INGRAIN
That's the simplest solution you can get to 'fix' Baton Pass. Both of these are viable as proven by several other users. Neither of these solutions are complex.
IMHO, we should wait a significant amount of time before we try to nerf anything, just to let the meta evolve and see what happens. WebBowser, I mentioned the use of Mega Gyarados on stall increasing, which is just one example. I think over time we will see more useful option emerge in the meta (i.e. it may not be overcentralizing given adequate time). The problem is that players need to first recognize Baton Pass as a threat that isn't going away from some insta-ban, then modify their team and test it. Team building isn't an easy process, so I would expect it to take time. So far, players have found a great way to utilize Mega Gyarados on Stall teams. There may be more, but the problem is that we won't know unless we give it time!
And furthermore, why hasn't anyone mentioned the impact of the meta on Baton Pass? Whirlwind is overcentralizing in that every Baton Pass team requires Ingrain or Espeon. Perish Song is overcentralizing in that every Baton Pass team requires Mr. Mime. I think this sort of logic is dumb in general. If a playstyle is inherently weak to specific styles then you build your team to counter it. Baton Pass is inherently weaker to Stall on paper, so the entire concept of a defensive Baton Pass team is build around being the ultimate stall counter. It just has the added benefit that people have a teambuilding advantage when using Baton Pass so they can create this team much faster than an ordinary team would be able to (so we can find the best Baton Pass team to fit the meta much faster than someone can find the best stall team to fit the meta).
In short: WAIT until we do anything. If the meta has gone to trash or Baton Pass is too powerful, then we need to address what aspect of it is broken. From there we either Ban Smeargle using Ingrain (Helping Stall teams) or we ban Scolipede (Helping Offensive teams) or both.
Their argument is that it gives enough passive regen to beat Seismic Toss spam (which is generally considered the best option for stall to beat Baton Pass). I don't think it's infraction worthy, but I also don't think Aqua Ring is relevant at all... No one will ever use Smeagle specifically for Aqua Ring or run Aqua Ring on Vaporeon (who has much better options in Scald, Roar, 101 Subs, and Acid Armor).
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Over Zealous I must say I love the fact that you assumed that I was taking a different position from you just because I called you out on your inflammatory posting. The fact is that I took my current position well before I made the post you quoted, and have posts to prove it. I, and virtually everyone else here, would greatly appreciate it if you stopped acting like you know everything and treat people here with respect.
ginganinja I personally was treating ingrain and aqua ring as the same move, so I apologize for my mistake. I believe the rest of my points to be valid and well researched, feel free to call me out on anything else that looks blatantly wrong though. Thank you.
Jukain While I do not condone Over Zealous' blatant disrespect of users of this thread (which includes myself), over the past several pages I have provided several strong arguments, supported with your own replays even, that scolipede, or more specifically, iron defense scolipede is in fact broken versus offensive teams due to the numerous OU threats that it can setup in front of for essentially free, as well as the level of support that this one turn of setup brings to any member of the team, regardless of whether or not they have the move BP.
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Hiphiphooray I do not think it is necessary to ban scolipede in it's entirety if it is deemed OP versus offense. I think simply banning iron defense scoli is sufficient.
ginganinja I personally was treating ingrain and aqua ring as the same move, so I apologize for my mistake. I believe the rest of my points to be valid and well researched, feel free to call me out on anything else that looks blatantly wrong though. Thank you.
Jukain While I do not condone Over Zealous' blatant disrespect of users of this thread (which includes myself), over the past several pages I have provided several strong arguments, supported with your own replays even, that scolipede, or more specifically, iron defense scolipede is in fact broken versus offensive teams due to the numerous OU threats that it can setup in front of for essentially free, as well as the level of support that this one turn of setup brings to any member of the team, regardless of whether or not they have the move BP.
*edit*
Hiphiphooray I do not think it is necessary to ban scolipede in it's entirety if it is deemed OP versus offense. I think simply banning iron defense scoli is sufficient.
Agreed. But Smogon is too lazy to do that.
Truth be told, the majority of top tier players on Smogon are having their flawless teams beaten by 'noobs' with Baton Pass. They don't view it as a worthy style of play so they try to ban it rather than change their teams so they can beat 'noobs.'
"Oh but it's just too overcentralizing!" ... Sounds like a lazy excuse to not get creative with team building. There are over 700 Pokemon in the game, are you seriously trying to tell me that stalls only viable solution to Baton Pass comes from a single Pokemon named Mega Gyarados? Combinations of pokemon, moves and tactics in general should beat Baton Pass, not a single ability on some obscure Pokemon.
Given time, knowledge, and an excess of Baton Pass teams to practice against, I think we will see Baton Pass is not overcentralizing. But since there are a vast majority of players that dismiss the entire playstyle as noob, we will likely see some nerf in the end...
Ok, what i'm hearing (mainly from one person) is that scolipede is the root of all the problems that baton pass has.
So, this implies that banning scolipede makes baton pass fair, and reasonably easy to handle. Otherwise, banning scolipede, wouldn't have been mentioned, i'm guessing.
So let's get this straight:
Scolipede is better than Ninjask. But just because ninjask is worse, it doesn't mean it can't do its job on a baton pass team at all.
This is a replay of a simple match I had with TFL:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115132820
There are several things things of note to pay attention to:
I'm carrying a banded talonflame, very strong against BP. More importantly, he made the call that mr. mime wasn't too helpful and sacked it to talonflame to bring in vaporeon to set up the crucial defense boost.
I would've won had I hit stone edge with mega tar.
There was NOTHING scolipede could've done better than ninjask did in that match.
Both of us are also fairly competent players, regardless of me using a rather outdated and old team.
If we ban Scolipede, then we will just go right back to ninjask. It's a little shitter, yes, but it still gets the job done, and that's what counts.
The major point I was trying to prove with the replay is that scolipede or ninjask wouldn't have changed the outcome in this particular match, which is why I believe banning scolipede isn't the answer here.
So, this implies that banning scolipede makes baton pass fair, and reasonably easy to handle. Otherwise, banning scolipede, wouldn't have been mentioned, i'm guessing.
So let's get this straight:
Scolipede is better than Ninjask. But just because ninjask is worse, it doesn't mean it can't do its job on a baton pass team at all.
This is a replay of a simple match I had with TFL:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-115132820
There are several things things of note to pay attention to:
I'm carrying a banded talonflame, very strong against BP. More importantly, he made the call that mr. mime wasn't too helpful and sacked it to talonflame to bring in vaporeon to set up the crucial defense boost.
I would've won had I hit stone edge with mega tar.
There was NOTHING scolipede could've done better than ninjask did in that match.
Both of us are also fairly competent players, regardless of me using a rather outdated and old team.
If we ban Scolipede, then we will just go right back to ninjask. It's a little shitter, yes, but it still gets the job done, and that's what counts.
The major point I was trying to prove with the replay is that scolipede or ninjask wouldn't have changed the outcome in this particular match, which is why I believe banning scolipede isn't the answer here.
Ninjask doesn't get Iron Defense, which is pretty much the selling point of Pede (over Jask).
Ninjask also has 44 less defense and 19 less special defense.
Yes, we know that Scolipede is (overall) better than Ninjask. The question is: "Is Ninjask good enough?"
Baton Pass truly is... Brutal to play against at times. I got completely decimated off the face of the earth by some guy who Baton Passed Scolipede to what turned out to be the God of all Cloysters. 4X attack 2.5X speed substituted Cloyster is NOT fun to play against. To put it simply... Icicle Spear took out my entire team. Even resistant 'Mons. Crap.
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