Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[haunter]

I just said that limiting the use of Baton Pass to a given number of Pokémon is my favourite way of approaching the issue. I'm gonna talk to the other council members to see what they do think. Feel free to bring up other possible ways of nerfing Baton Pass teams and keep in mind that our goal is not to make them completely unviable.

 

[dumbguyfin]

A ban of scolipede would be idiotic in this situation. I feel like complex ban (something like scolipede+espeon) is by far the best choice in this situation, or limiting the amount of pokemon with bp

 

[jbtc10]

In regards to the hypothetical limitation of users, it's been shown that both Mr. Mime and Smeargle aren't necessary (or even desirable) for modern BP teams, so that can automatically trim the team down to the "bare essentials" of 4 members (Scoli, Espeon, Physical Wall, Special Wall). That of course means you can't use other helpful members like Zapdos and Mew (who are both really good), but the essence of the team is still there. Without Mew, you don't have the nice set of Barrier, Amnesia, Softboiled and Baton Pass which can often boost up to +6 in each stat by spamming the appropriate boosting moves and Softboiled, and without Zapdos you don't have the appreciated insurance against Bird Spam which is a major threat to the standard 4 member core, so their absence does make the strategy a lot easier to overcome. With 3 members, the team is now entering dangerous territory by shaving off one of its important walls, whether it be the special or physical, which leaves a gaping hole on either side of the attacking spectrum which is obviously a severe problem for the team as we know it.

No Smeargle or Mime BP (Zapdos and Mew) vs Rain Team (only up to mid ladder with this account, so bear with it): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114889632

Without Zapdos, Honchkrow would have been mostly free to bulldoze its way through the team basically unhindered, so even if the team had 4 members, things could have been quite tricky, so there's that to consider.

 

[matimooo]

Seems like the majority of people are set on making a max of baton passers to 3 or 4. Now people are just watching and commenting replays, so whoever starts a voting, should do it now.

Hallelujah someone who gets it!

Actually this strategy might just be enough. More testing may be needed but the matter is that by removing the roots (literally), the entire tree can fall down once other issues rise up. Phazing becomes easier and the healing factor is reduced.

Bonus points for remembering the third generation had a meta-game.

u wont solve the problem by that. Bp doesnt need ingrain to manage and health can be regained with aqua ring.

 

[Kingkiadman]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114920701

I am just going to say that I can take down idiots with baton pass teams without even using baton pass... I still would say this is not a broken setup, people just freak out and get mad when they don't know how to counter it.

 

[jbtc10]

u wont solve the problem by that. Bp doesnt need ingrain to manage and health can be regained with aqua ring.

There's also the fact that Mew is amazingly versatile and can set up in the face of a lot of Stall mons by using Taunt to shut down Whirlwind, Roar, Haze, Status and Hazard users, then boosting to high heaven with a move like Calm Mind, which incidentally renders pretty much all stall attacks useless since they are mostly special attackers, and a complimentary physically defensive nature makes all attacks from them next to harmless. After enough boosts are gained to the point where Quagsire is OHKO'd by Stored Power, Mew can simply pass into Espeon and go to town. This is much more scary than what Smeargle does to Stall, so banning Ingrain + Baton Pass on Smeargle could end up making matters even worse for the Stall players out there.

 

[Shoot For Zero]

Because I need you to consider something, by changing one thing, you're effectively not just "removing the cancer" but also more that goes along with it. There is no easy way to take on this strategy, I get that. There are 83 pages worth of people attempting to figure out what to do. But by bringing this topic up to this level and demanding that we "just ban one pokemon" responsible at this point WILL cause collateral damage that we need to avoid.

Bungie considered altering the gun spread but they realized they'd be changing the entire point of a mid-long range rifle, effectively turning it into a Sniper Rifle capable of being practically the ONLY weapon people use. By killing this play-style we're almost doing the same thing, except by getting rid of the word "mid-long range rifle" and putting "play-style" in it's place. [We'd be Homogenizing the entire simulator because we're afraid of something simple.

Right now, BP chains are like zero-spread BRs (except better since they weren't hitscan in Halo 3). BP is what will homogenize the metagame if we do nothing about it because the strategy will never need to adapt to any changes in the meta unless the strategy is changed itself. It's the Swiss army knife of XY; the meta was an elaborate and interweaved game of rock-paper-scissors before, but BP chains make it rock-paper-BR-scissors, and the rock's not killing a BR anytime soon.

After taking several game design courses, I can assure you that as soon as we "fix" this problem, someone will be hell bound on finding a new one.

After we get this sorted out, I'll try to get people to run scarfed Togekiss and a parashuffler en masse so the lopsided paraflinch coinflip becomes a problem; then we can spot ban Serene Grace.

 

[Jarrod]

Just as examples of pokemon who have been previously banned due to overwhelming support: Deoxys S and D.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114920701

I am just going to say that I can take down idiots with baton pass teams without even using baton pass... I still would say this is not a broken setup, people just freak out and get mad when they don't know how to counter it.

I must agree with you. Are you Dr. Seus in this replay? Your opponent played...like word I'm not not going to say on a forum. Someone who has read all the hype about baton pass without really understanding it. They're everywhere. For example, I've watched a baton pass team construct a 6-0 win despite some of the poorest execution I have seen. The reason being an opponent making even more ridiculous plays because they have been convinced that winning is impossible otherwise. I have plenty of high ranking battle experience with baton pass teams, and I do see the need for a nerf. Nonetheless, I fully understand what you're saying. Baton pass strategy itself is an issue, but players who fear whatever they are told to fear results in things being blown out of proportion.

 

[WebBowser]

Well, this thread blew up (again) overnight. For the record, I do NOT agree with Over Zealous proposal of banning scoli as a whole, however, I DO think that banning ingrain/aqua ring smeargle AND banning iron defense scoli would be enough to solve the issue. I have made arguments for this about 3-4 pages ago, including analyzed replays of fairly high level games to support my opinion.

A TL;DR for folks who don't feel like going back

Ingrain/Aqua Ring smeargle: Ingrain does 2 things for BP, it makes every single member immune to phasing, and it severely reduces / negates passive damage from things like scald burns and seismic toss, which are stalls primary weapons to fight BP. Without that passive health, Espeon is in fact quite easy to wear down with a burn or repeated seismic tosses to the face. Once espeon is out of the way, stall can shuffle, taunt and status their way to victory with relative ease.

Iron Defense scoli: Simply put, with speed boost and a way to boost his defense by not one but two stages, scoli actually has some pretty stupid phys bulk (comparable to phys defensive deo-d, who was ubers last gen and is considered suspect material this gen). Scoli can set up +2 defense in the face of threats like LO latios, any non taunt/roar ttar, mega heracross, terrakion, and pretty much any other physical threat besides the ultra powerful fire/flying type wallbreakers like darm, rapter, and tflame. I argue that the almost gaurenteed +2 defense and +1-2 speed against most physical threats and many walls is broken on ANY team, but is particularly broken on teams built around it, not unlike wobbuffet from gens 3 and 4.

Over Zealous Also, can you do me a favor and stop it with the ad hominum attacks? You are actually weakening my argument by burying my posts underneath replies to your blatantly inflammatory posts that are accomplishing little other then making others mad. Thank you. If you want, we can discuss points that you want to talk about and try to construct an argument around them, but questioning the legitimacy of other people's posts is not getting you anywhere.

 

[Hiphiphooray]

People need to make up their mind if Baton Pass is too powerful all around, or just towards stall.

Everyone made their arguments around Baton Pass needing nerfed because it was too powerful against stall. Then I introduce a potential fix to help stall against Baton Pass, and then we see arguments saying that this fix doesn't help against teams that aren't stall. :P

 

[WebBowser]

People need to make up their mind if Baton Pass is too powerful all around, or just towards stall.

Everyone made their arguments around Baton Pass needing nerfed because it was too powerful against stall. Then I introduce a potential fix to help stall against Baton Pass, and then we see arguments saying that this fix doesn't help against teams that aren't stall. :P

I think the reason why the BP vs stall matchup got so much discussion on this topic is that BP has been built around beating stall, creating a very lopsided matchup. However, I think that the argument can be made that BP is also a bit too strong against offensive teams, due to being capable of setting up in the face of many prominent offensive threats, which is why I am currently advocating for the ban of iron defense scoli in addition to the ban of ingrain / aqua ring smeargle.

Also, I've heard the following argument being passed around and I would like to address it. "Banning [mon X] would not solve the problem of BP, it would just increase the number of counters". I argue that increasing the number of viable counters should be the goal of any ban we make. BP, like any setup reliant team comp, can easily snowball into victory. Unless we want to ban setup sweepers, I see nothing wrong with a pokemon capable of causing a great deal of damage to the enemy team or even sweeping them outright when given a chance to setup (otherwise m-pinsir and bisharp would've been banned ages ago). The difference between these mons and BP in it's current form is that m-pinsir and bisharp have viable counters pre setup and viable checks post setup. Atm, BP simply does not.

Jukain : I haven't gotten a chance to watch your replays yet, but once I get a chance I will analyze them and post my opinions on them, I think they will provide a helpful case-study of how well BP works without smeargle against what is hopefully a decent variety of teams. I will be looking at two things in particular.

1. How does smeargle-less BP fair against stall?

2. How much support is scoli giving you against more offensive teams? Is it the deciding factor the matchup?

 

[BrellowBran]

,

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114920701

I am just going to say that I can take down idiots with baton pass teams without even using baton pass... I still would say this is not a broken setup, people just freak out and get mad when they don't know how to counter it.

Kingofswag seems like an annoying loser. I'm glad you defeated him. People are worried that if they change their movesets to help counter BP, that they'll be at a disadvantage to those that refuse to change. If everyone is making a moveset around beating BP then the meta is balanced. It means that you aren't the only one that has to sacrifice to deal with a new threat. Those that aren't willing to slightly change their movesets deserve to lose. Pokemon is a competitive evolving game. If you can't adapt, you're gonna be left behind. I can compare some of this thread to a dragon/dark trainer petitioning to ban or nerf fairy types.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

But the BP chain user won lol... Well, it's just a clarification... It's not like a replay featuring a player freaking out proves anything.

Yes, I admitted to reading his post wrong. I was thinking he was saying he was the non BP user. I also for some reason thought it said Dr. Seus forfeited. Haha, I should get my eyes checked.
But my point still stands. BP takes little to no skill to pull a victory as shown in the replay.

 

[Kingkiadman]

lol if you want more proof baton pass isn't broken as people think it is, you just have to be able to think like a passer to counter it. here is another vid. Yes I am Dr.Seus just for reference:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114978357

here is the team setup:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Waterfall

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Flame Charge
- Roost

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Destiny Bond

Klefki @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Reflect
- Draining Kiss
- Light Screen

Espeon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Crobat @ Black Sludge
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Defog
- Taunt


For the record this team isn't made to counter baton pass specifically, its just meant to be defensive.

 

[jbtc10]

I think the reason why the BP vs stall matchup got so much discussion on this topic is that BP has been built around beating stall, creating a very lopsided matchup. However, I think that the argument can be made that BP is also a bit too strong against offensive teams, due to being capable of setting up in the face of many prominent offensive threats, which is why I am currently advocating for the ban of iron defense scoli in addition to the ban of ingrain / aqua ring smeargle.

Also, I've heard the following argument being passed around and I would like to address it. "Banning [mon X] would not solve the problem of BP, it would just increase the number of counters". I argue that increasing the number of viable counters should be the goal of any ban we make. BP, like any setup reliant team comp, can easily snowball into victory. Unless we want to ban setup sweepers, I see nothing wrong with a pokemon capable of causing a great deal of damage to the enemy team or even sweeping them outright when given a chance to setup (otherwise m-pinsir and bisharp would've been banned ages ago). The difference between these mons and BP in it's current form is that m-pinsir and bisharp have viable counters pre setup and viable checks post setup. Atm, BP simply does not.

Jukain : I haven't gotten a chance to watch your replays yet, but once I get a chance I will analyze them and post my opinions on them, I think they will provide a helpful case-study of how well BP works without smeargle against what is hopefully a decent variety of teams. I will be looking at two things in particular.

1. How does smeargle-less BP fair against stall?

2. How much support is scoli giving you against more offensive teams? Is it the deciding factor the matchup?

I literally just put forth an argument on this very page as to why the proposed complex bans involving Smeargle to specifically help stall teams deal with BP teams supposedly easier are pretty frivolous. BP has some even better tools available to it to make Stall's life hell outside of Ingrain Smeargle, who isn't even that good, so there will always be other things popping up (like Taunt Mew) if these bans are implemented so they'll serve no real purpose. And no, offense definitely has the clear advantage against BP, and BP members certainly have checks and counters pre and post set-up, just like standalone sweepers do. Offense can easily prevent BP members from being able to meaningfully set-up, the number of things which can hit extremely hard in this meta is ridiculous and can make life very difficult for any BP player. Having sympathy for offense in any way in relation to BP is a bit of a joke, especially since offense is the best strategy in the game that has the overall best match-ups against everything in the meta.

I had a game against offense earlier on and I was basically shitting myself during preview at the number of huge threats he had. I basically only won because of him making a misplay on a turn where he got a free Bisharp switch-in which he failed to capitalize on. If he played better, he would have easily won and probably 6-0'd. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114939487

 

[Ninja Charizard]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114920701

I am just going to say that I can take down idiots with baton pass teams without even using baton pass... I still would say this is not a broken setup, people just freak out and get mad when they don't know how to counter it.

You made me root for a baton pass team.

...

Congratulations.

By the way, Perish Song hard counters bp without Mr. Mime, but it's not a common enough of a move to mean a lot to this discussion.

 

[Falcon0408]

Look, we are already having to deal with Over Zealous, we don't need another person who uses personal attacks to argue.

the number of people who clearly didn't read the first post makes me sad. if someone doesn't call them out then the useless posts will just keep coming. his argument was that we need to adapt to full-pass, and that's already been shown to not be the solution several times.

thinking about a team with 4 passers. what could the other 2 pokes be? 2 dedicated receivers (fast, powerful, good coverage; keldeo, zards)? 1 dedicated receiver and 1 poke for "utility" (something to counter the common BP checks, trickscarfer to make the checks useless, that annoying Victini set with Final Gambit, Gothitelle, something along those lines)? 2 utilities, where Espeon is one of the 4 passers and is still at the end? Would a more aggressive build be needed on the passers? Generally they are bulkier, with most if not all speed coming from Scolipede (though I'm sure Denis has done all the necessary speed tier calcs and has some outrageous EV spreads), but if the chain is only 4 pokes, then will more of them need offensive elements? What Pokemon would they even be? Besides Scolipede, Sylveon and Espeon there are several candidates for the 4th spot. Perish Song is almost never seen unless someone is specifically building to beat BP, and it still gives you 3 turns to smack stuff around, so is Mr Mine really necessary? This team loses to Flying spam, so is Zapdos optimal? A shorter chain means that it's much less dedicated, so are things like Aqua Ring Vaporeon or Ingrain Smeargle even viable? At this point I'd say the whole "full pass" strat is gone. Short chains, lasting maybe 6-8 turns before switching, or passing small boosts and subs to sweepers, is what BP will be reduced to.

answer

 

[Jarrod]

lol if you want more proof baton pass isn't broken as people think it is, you just have to be able to think like a passer to counter it. here is another vid. Yes I am Dr.Seus just for reference:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114978357

here is the team setup:

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Waterfall

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Dance
- Flame Charge
- Roost

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Destiny Bond

Klefki @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Reflect
- Draining Kiss
- Light Screen

Espeon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Grass Knot
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Crobat @ Black Sludge
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Defog
- Taunt


For the record this team isn't made to counter baton pass specifically, its just meant to be defensive.

This by no means constitutes "proof" that baton pass is not broken. Your opponent had no idea how to utilize one of the greatest team assets (Espeon), hence your phasing was sufficient to counter the strategy. Not to mention, the obvious switch in for Crobat was Zapdos, not Mr. Mime who would have also been an asset against roar.

 

[Albacore]

lol if you want more proof baton pass isn't broken as people think it is, you just have to be able to think like a passer to counter it. here is another vid. Yes I am Dr.Seus just for reference:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114978357

The fact that someone actually got to 1600 ELO using one of the worst BP teams I have ever seen (no Sylveon or Vaporeon? Really?) and consistently making absolutely terrible plays says a lot about how broken this playstyle is.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

The fact that someone actually got to 1600 ELO using one of the worst BP teams I have ever seen (no Sylveon or Vaporeon? Really?) and consistently making absolutely terrible plays says a lot about how broken this playstyle is.

Baton Pass was a very viable playstyle last gen and Sylveon didn't even exist at the time. While I would advise against forgoing Vaporeon, Mew can also pass defense boosts and phaze and Zapdos could also take the role as a phazer. If anything it shows how terrible the ladder is on Smogon and that rankings don't mean much in the end.

 

[WebBowser]

jbtc10 Ah yes, I meant to reply to that post, thank you for reminding me. Here's the difference between mew and smeargle (in relation to fighting stall). Smeargle does not need to be out to heal off his allies passive damage or prevent phasing, he just needs a single free turn to ingrain with and nothing more. For mew to taunt an enemy, he needs to be already out, putting himself at risk. This is a huge difference that should not be marginalized. Furthermore, like most BP memebers, mew has some serious 4MSS issues. Here's a list of things that mew would like to do, in rough order of importance.

1. baton pass
2. taunt
3. reliable recovery (usually roost)
4. boost defenses (barrier and amniesa)
5. boost offenses (calm mind, nasty plot, maybe SD)
6. boost speed (agility)
7. have an offensive presence (no stored power, so likely some random special attack like aura sphere)
8. random creative stuff that I'm missing.

Realistically, mew can do 1, 2, and either 3 and half of 4, or skip 3 and just do 4. If he skips out on reliable recovery, he's vulnerable to getting status'd on swap in and/or getting s-tossed to death. If he does run reliable recovery, you'd still have to justify him over other defensive passers like vap, who have their own niche and don't share weaknesses with espeon.

Basically, mew is no more broken to stall then zapdos is to offense, they still need a free turn to do what they do and are not entirely uncounterable while doing it. Furthermore, taunt is far less permanent then ingrain and is easier to work around.

As for arguing that offense has a fair/positive matchup versus BP, I am not entirely convinced. The fact is that scoli can set up against a wide variety of threats on all sides of the spectrum, defensive, offensive, physical, special, you name it, and once he gets his +2 defense and his +1-2 speed, that makes the rest of his team near impossible to check on the physical side, meaning that they will almost certainly have to rely on special attackers to check the team. A decent majority of special attackers are checked if not outright countered by sylveon, especially a speed boosted sylveon. This is the basis of my argument that BP is too powerful against offensive teams and that iron defense scoli is what is making it so.

Since I have shown calcs of prominent physical threats failing at stopping scoli from setting up, I'll be focusing on the special side (I can repost the calcs if you feel like calling me out on it)

252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 195-229 (60.1 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (I realize he has taunt, but that's not the point)
252 SpA Life Orb Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 216-255 (66.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Analytic Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 285-336 (87.9 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 250-296 (77.1 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 207-244 (63.8 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 204-241 (62.9 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So on the special side, you need investment AND a super effective attack to ohko him, otherwise he just sets up his iron defense, passes to sylveon, and you've got a mon whose exceptionally bulky on both defense AND special defense, faster then most of the meta, and is ready to setup in the face of an even MORE impressive array of threats, repeatedly. This is why iron defense scoli is broken. Sylveon is not broken without the speed and free iron defense, nor is vaporeon, nor is espeon or anyone else on BP.

 

[Arca10]

lol if you want more proof baton pass isn't broken as people think it is, you just have to be able to think like a passer to counter it. here is another vid. Yes I am Dr.Seus just for reference:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114978357

/snip


For the record this team isn't made to counter baton pass specifically, its just meant to be defensive.

Your opponent was a terrible player, and your team is fairly well-suited to handling BP. The fact that they got to 1600 at all, much less with that team, is arguing against your point.

 

[Bandicot']

Hello , let me introduce myself.
I'm a player from another server ( Pandora) that is constantly watching and trying to see the changes of the current metagame for quite some time, and as a prominent within that community player I will bring a grain of sand on the issue , so you have to start at the beginning.

Baton Pass is an extremely useful and versatile motion - swagger- unlike that allows spending increases / reductions or flee to the pokemon that uses it. Generally I was outclasseado by U-turn/Volt Switch in the fifth generation , which perhaps , Espeon Celebi and were most prominent users of this TTAR to escape and Scizor , among others ( depending on your set) .

Also remember last ban Shell Smash + Baton Pass in UU due to the imbalance that created in this tier .

Now, I think it's still too early to " ban " something like Baton Pass, and am convinced that it is necessary to limit and / or ban other things that centralize the game even more , since it must be understood together .

Definitely the Baton Pass this centralizing presently too competitive play , where that style of play is very effective against most other styles ; where once a pokemon does make your Set- Up ( in most cases, Scoli and Smeargle ) and pass it , it's GG . This, as in the past " suspects " Mega Kan and Ggar , forcing players to be able to cover those pokemon equipment sets that happen to be (most of the time) useless .
I see it this way , as in teams based on SwagPlay (before the ban of swagger ), where you can be a "pro" , have a very solid team and be a great player , you could be defeated and be laughter of the community where you play, or you could win and your victory is taken as less. This suggests that if you win , it was not very difficult and if you lose you will be a shame. I think everyone has at some point played against teams Full BP , and if you break a BP chain , the owner of that team leaves the battle. That's the point , there is no merit in the victory . It's Broke.

I've seen great players using BP , to which respect for his talent with them, but that style of play usually shows rarely playability of a person. (see replays that have been previously released )

I suggest the Baton Pass has a low limit , so that their use for short chains (Shell Smash + BP , BP SD + RP + BP etc). this will facilitate the " tiering " in the future , plus it will keep a limited use of it and is easier to check.

 

[gnr61]

Scolipede with Baton Pass is not inherently broken. It is the rest of the team that makes it broken. Quick Pass Scolipede is absolutely fine, and is relatively common.

I agree that banning Scolipede is not the answer, but on the grounds that Baton Pass as a playstyle is unique in having next to no interaction with the metagame and therefore requires special solutions to deal with it compared to other troublesome playstyle cores; however, I do seem to recall 'The rest of the team makes it broken' being a moot argument when discussing Keldeo's partnership within certain archetypes, especially Pursuit users, toward the end of BW. Under normal conditions I think it's dangerous to suggest there's precedent for preserving a problematic Pokemon on the grounds of it having other, not-so-problematic sets we'd like to see it hold onto (surely Blaze Blaziken would have some colorful use in OU). Again, as someone with a lot of experience using Baton Pass and hating myself, I support a 3-user cap and under no circumstances a ban of Scolipede or even of Scolipede + Espeon; I just don't want people to getting the wrong idea about broken support/core mons being exempt from the ban hammer just because they don't obliterate with their own offenses like your typical Blaziken/Kanga/Luke suspect.

 

[Flamebot]

Well, this thread blew up (again) overnight. For the record, I do NOT agree with Over Zealous proposal of banning scoli as a whole, however, I DO think that banning ingrain/aqua ring smeargle AND banning iron defense scoli would be enough to solve the issue. I have made arguments for this about 3-4 pages ago, including analyzed replays of fairly high level games to support my opinion.

A TL;DR for folks who don't feel like going back

Ingrain/Aqua Ring smeargle: Ingrain does 2 things for BP, it makes every single member immune to phasing, and it severely reduces / negates passive damage from things like scald burns and seismic toss, which are stalls primary weapons to fight BP. Without that passive health, Espeon is in fact quite easy to wear down with a burn or repeated seismic tosses to the face. Once espeon is out of the way, stall can shuffle, taunt and status their way to victory with relative ease.

Iron Defense scoli: Simply put, with speed boost and a way to boost his defense by not one but two stages, scoli actually has some pretty stupid phys bulk (comparable to phys defensive deo-d, who was ubers last gen and is considered suspect material this gen). Scoli can set up +2 defense in the face of threats like LO latios, any non taunt/roar ttar, mega heracross, terrakion, and pretty much any other physical threat besides the ultra powerful fire/flying type wallbreakers like darm, rapter, and tflame. I argue that the almost gaurenteed +2 defense and +1-2 speed against most physical threats and many walls is broken on ANY team, but is particularly broken on teams built around it, not unlike wobbuffet from gens 3 and 4.

Over Zealous Also, can you do me a favor and stop it with the ad hominum attacks? You are actually weakening my argument by burying my posts underneath replies to your blatantly inflammatory posts that are accomplishing little other then making others mad. Thank you. If you want, we can discuss points that you want to talk about and try to construct an argument around them, but. Know I don't questioning the legitimacy of other people's posts is not getting you anywhere.

I agree with the first part, and you already know I don't like the second part.
So solution, ban Ingrain/Squaring smeargle, and cap at 3. This solves the problem even more than what most people have suggested. Because as I said banning Iron defence Scolipied doesn't seem right as some frail attackers could appreciate that boost.

Also can you send me an improbable of a baton pass team? I might be able to bring other options to the table