Baton Pass - its role in the metagame and possible solutions to nerf full Baton Pass chains

[shedinja4eva]

It would make more sense to treat it like Species clause, and have it prevent you from entering a match with X Pokemon with BP. The difference between having two Pokes with Sleep inducing moves and having BP failing is that one will be entirely useless for the rest of the match. Where as sleep can be re induced when it wakes up.

Just make it so that you can't enter with X Pokes with BP, that number is dependent on what everyone agrees on, and call it a day.

Oh, I was thinking that the clause would reset if you switched out, the same way as if the sleeping pokemon woke up.

So scolipede passes to espeon. Your opponent switches something in, you switch out (just normally). Now you can pass again to or from anything (including espeon or scoped). That would also prevent the huge momentum gain that current baton pass teams have, where they can keep switching without losing their boosts.


Edit: so I guess the clause would be if the pokemon entered by baton pass, it can't use baton pass

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Oh, I was thinking that the clause would reset if you switched out, the same way as if the sleeping pokemon woke up.

So scolipede passes to espeon. Your opponent switches something in, you switch out (just normally). Now you can pass again to or from anything (including espeon or scoped). That would also prevent the huge momentum gain that current baton pass teams have, where they can keep switching without losing their boosts.

Why do that when you can completely avoid the more complex coding and limit the number of 'mons carrying BP on each team?
Besides, they wouldn't limit it to one BP until you hard switch. 3 or 4 is enough to do what you can without being too overwhelming for the opponent.

 

[Jukain]

have 9 replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114738298

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114739328

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114741246

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114744717

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114747286

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114751766

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114764793

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114770286

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114770286 (random dumb talk ignore that :V)

Broken garb :| The only reason you'll see that my rank actually goes back down is because there's so much ridiculous anti-BP it's rather hilarious, seeing shit like Ditto and actual MB Taunt/Roar Megados being actually used everywhere. If someone brings up the 'oh! people can adapt omg not broken!!!!!!' I'll slam :]

Funnily enough, I've actually found this more effective in some ways than 6-mon Baton Pass, in that you have these things that can totally wreck stuff that threatens you (Mega Aerodactyl is the main thing for this, basically singlehandedly fucks Fly spam). You also have the option to BP out to a superpowered Lando and shit all over everything because Lando is just that good, and Lando can break down a lot of stuff for you. I don't miss anything in my BP chain, it's not like losing Smeargle/Mime/Zapdos actually made that much of a difference, and I gained countermeasures to opposing anti-BP strats. This stuff is absolutely ridiculous.

I'm just gonna put this out there: if you're trying to get Pokemon bans, it's not going to happen. I 100% guarantee you of this, they will never happen. It's simply not an approach that makes any sense for the issue at hand. The debate is down to picking between 3 and 4, and based on this evidence I think it'd be a mistake not to cap at 3.

 

[Shoot For Zero]

The debate is down to picking between 3 and 4, and based on this evidence I think it'd be a mistake not to cap at 3.

I like the cap, and I like it at 3, but it does need suspecting.

 

[Mango Smoothie]

have 9 replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114738298

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114739328

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114741246

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114744717

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114747286

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114751766

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114764793

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114770286

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-114770286 (random dumb talk ignore that :V)

Broken garb :| The only reason you'll see that my rank actually goes back down is because there's so much ridiculous anti-BP it's rather hilarious, seeing shit like Ditto and actual MB Taunt/Roar Megados being actually used everywhere. If someone brings up the 'oh! people can adapt omg not broken!!!!!!' I'll slam :]

Funnily enough, I've actually found this more effective in some ways than 6-mon Baton Pass, in that you have these things that can totally wreck stuff that threatens you (Mega Aerodactyl is the main thing for this, basically singlehandedly fucks Fly spam). You also have the option to BP out to a superpowered Lando and shit all over everything because Lando is just that good, and Lando can break down a lot of stuff for you. I don't miss anything in my BP chain, it's not like losing Smeargle/Mime/Zapdos actually made that much of a difference, and I gained countermeasures to opposing anti-BP strats. This stuff is absolutely ridiculous.

I'm just gonna put this out there: if you're trying to get Pokemon bans, it's not going to happen. I 100% guarantee you of this, they will never happen. It's simply not an approach that makes any sense for the issue at hand. The debate is down to picking between 3 and 4, and based on this evidence I think it'd be a mistake not to cap at 3.

From watching the replays (also just a note the last two are the same) I think we get the gist that 4 isn't all that different from a 6-BP team. With 4, and we see, you get all you really need in way of boosting (2 Physical defense boosters, 2 special boosters, and speed boosts). Even in the battles where his 2 'other' options faint early on he still gets the boosts he needs to secure the game, and "Mold Breaker Taunt" fails to do much. He isn't missing much with the lack of Smeargle and Mr. Mime, and it actually looks like its working more efficiently without them.

 

[Karxrida]

From watching the replays (also just a note the last two are the same) I think we get the gist that 4 isn't all that different from a 6-BP team. With 4, and we see, you get all you really need in way of boosting (2 Physical defense boosters, 2 special boosters, and speed boosts). Even in the battles where his 2 'other' options faint early on he still gets the boosts he needs to secure the game, and "Mold Breaker Taunt" fails to do much. He isn't missing much with the lack of Smeargle and Mr. Mime, and it actually looks like its working more efficiently without them.

It's kind of like SwagPlay in that regard; the best SwagPlay teams only had 2-3 SwagPlayers, while everything else was support (Ditto, Gothitelle, etc). It seems to be apparent that 3-4 Baton Passers can still be overpowered (arguably more so than 6 because they are more efficient) and that we should limit the amount of them to 2 or 3 (or even 1 if 2 is still overpowered).

 

[Over Zealous]

A replay filled with mistakes doesnt illustrate anything. If your opponent has absolutely no idea what to do against baton pass, then your replay is completly useless. I am almost expecting you to post someone shell smashing thrice in a row while the opponenet sets up hazards and then say "shell smash is clearly broken, mistakes or skill in general doesnt matter."


Yeah, the staple of baton pass teams for 3 generations has absolutely no place in the discussion about banning his replacement.
Dont even try to refute anything, just keep saying no one can mention him anymore. That will work against every possible argument.


You didnt even read my post, did you? Keep fighting your strawman that has no idea how protect + sub works.


Woah. I am wrong because I am wrong. Scolipede is uncompetitive because it is uncompetitive. This opened my eyes.


I never said there wasnt a problem with baton pass. In fact, all my last posts were debating against a Scolipede ban because it wouldnt be enough of a nerf. Not that I expected you to know this, you're clearly not reading anything and has resorted to dodging every point with half assed generic responses.

Concluding a player "has absolutely no idea what to do against Baton Pass" because he opted for a second Dragon Dance is ignorant and cowardly. "There were mistakesLOL!" doesn't refute the illustrations of the replays. Read this over and over until you understand: the replays demonstrates Scolipede's effortless x3 Speed and x2 Def, regardless of what you do, and by himself, he can restart the chain with equally no effort several times during the course of a single match.

Ninjask has already been discussed. It lacks the bulk, stats, and reliability that Scolipede possesses; it's inferior in every way. The argument "you can replace Scolipede with Ninjask!" has already been defeated. Ninjask has existed since Gen 3, and only now, because of Scolipede, is Baton Pass archetype dominating and overcentralizing the OU metagame.

You truly don't believe a Pokemon that can boost 2 stats simultaneously, and reboost several times over the course of the match, and ensure speed initiative for the entire chain, isn't the problem? There's literally nothing you can do to stop 1-3x Speed and x2 Defence, between Mental Herb, Iron Defence, and Protect. Switch to a counter? He's now behind a Substitute, able to Protect again.

Seriously answer how Scolipede isn't a problem whatsoever, and perhaps enlighten us on what is.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Banning Scolipede (and Ingrain Smeargle to a lesser degree) will mean that Offensive teams will have to rely on strong Physical Attackers/wallkbreakers to deal with BP Abuse, and means Stall teams are still SOL since Espeon, Sylveon, and Vaporeon are still nearly impossible for them to get past.

 

[Awagarb]

Bonus addition since it was bothering me :

Concluding a player "has absolutely no idea what to do against Baton Pass" because he opted for a second Dragon Dance is ignorant and cowardly.

Taking out 2/3 of my reasons (dragon claw to break subs when baton to mime + encore could happen and a third dance when he saw a sub up) and concluding I am an ignorant coward with just the first one is ignorant and cowardly.

You truly don't believe a Pokemon that can boost 2 stats simultaneously, and reboost several times over the course of the match, and ensure speed initiative for the entire chain, isn't the problem?

Seriously answer how Scolipede isn't a problem whatsoever

Read this over and over until you understand: I dont think Scolipede is the ONLY problem. I already stated multiple times he is the biggest offender in BP Teams.

Baton Pass requires two Pokemon: Scolipede and Espeon, to top-rank ladder and be successful.

I have established Speed Boost Scolipede and Magic Bounce Espeon in conjunction with Baton Pass exacerbates the metagame; it is unhealthy for the development of the metagame. Baton Pass is high on the ladder for a reason, and those two reasons are Scolipede and Espeon.

See? Even you agree with me. Also Sylveon.

I would love to enlight you about how these 3 cores are broken together instead of exclusively Scolipede, but you're not listening.
You simply repeat the same thing over and over and over again no matter how many times I break down your post and point out what is wrong.
Seriously, I am tired of hearing you say that Scolipede is broken because [the same argument about free speed and maybe a defense boost that you used over 20 times in this thread] and call it a day, without even considering that we agree about it, just not with the effectiveness of a single poke ban.

I might as well step down to your level and save some time : A Scolipede ban has already been discussed and defeated. We have already established the problem spreads farther than a single core. This discussion has no further relevance to this thread.

I hope you continue to enjoy painting plusle faces into strawmen and pretending you were actually arguing with me. Have a good day. I am done with this brick wall.

 

[Over Zealous]

Read this over and over until you understand: I dont think Scolipede is the ONLY problem. I already stated multiple times he is the biggest offender in BP Teams.



See? Even you agree with me. Also Sylveon.

I would love to enlight you about how these 3 cores are broken together instead of exclusively Scolipede, but you're not listening.
You simply repeat the same thing over and over and over again no matter how many times I break down your post and point out what is wrong.
Seriously, I am tired of hearing you say that Scolipede is broken because [the same argument about free speed and maybe a defense boost that you used over 20 times in this thread] and call it a day, without even considering that we agree about it, just not with the effectiveness of a single poke ban.

I might as well step down to your level and save some time : A Scolipede ban has already been discussed and defeated. We have already established the problem spreads farther than a single core. This discussion has no further relevance to this thread.

I hope you continue to enjoy painting plusle faces into strawmen and pretending you were actually arguing with me. Have a good day. I am done with this brick wall.

So we agree Scolipede is A problem, the BIGGEST offender.

Smogon avoids complex bans and specially engineered clauses unless absolutely necessary. This is thread to postulate how to make Baton Pass, the strategy, more manageable, not relinquish the archetype.

A Scolipede ban has not been defeated; no one can refute his overwhelming support for the chain.

A Baton Pass clause of 3 or 4 might be a solution, but 3-4 members is still overcentralizing on account of Scolipede.

And so we really have nothing further to discuss; a Suspect Test should be invoked.

 

[Jukain]

So we agree Scolipede is A problem, the BIGGEST offender.

Smogon avoids complex bans and specially engineered clauses unless absolutely necessary. This is thread to postulate how to make Baton Pass, the strategy, more manageable, not relinquish the archetype.

A Scolipede ban has not been defeated; no one can refute his overwhelming support for the chain.

A Baton Pass clause of 3 or 4 might be a solution, but 3-4 members is still overcentralizing on account of Scolipede.

And so we really have nothing further to discuss; a Suspect Test should be invoked.

When are you going to get it through your head that a suspect test is not happening. It's not. It's been stated that it's not. What you're saying at this point doesn't even make any sense.

 

[Punchshroom]

Well, what are we doing at this point? I'm not saying that a Suspect test should be conducted, nor am I even going to bring up my Clause again should we finally decide on the optimal restriction of BPers per team.

 

[Over Zealous]

When are you going to get it through your head that a suspect test is not happening. It's not. It's been stated that it's not. What you're saying at this point doesn't even make any sense.

When did Haunter, or specifically Smogon, go from alluding to a possible Suspect Test to dismissing the possibility entirely?

they never goddamn alluded to it, it's been stated from the start that there wouldnt be a test. just read, its not that damn hard.

Yeah, so where did Smogon state "there will be no Baton Pass Suspect Test, and there will be no ban of any Pokemon"?

Preliminary notes: this is by no means a suspect thread, nor it is guaranteed that the move Baton Pass will ever be brought up for a formal suspect test.

With or without a Suspect Test, Scolipede is still open to the possibility of a ban just as much as a complex ban or clause.

 

[trc]

they never goddamn alluded to it, it's been stated from the start that there wouldnt be a test. just read, its not that damn hard.

 

[CyclicCompound]

Pardon me if I'm missing something, since I'm just jumping into this thread, but why are we even discussing possibly banning Scolipede? It has a completely non-broken revenge killer set that doesn't even involve Baton Pass. Banning Scolipede altogether would prevent players from using this other, completely harmless set.

Besides, Quick Pass isn't even a problem. Full Pass is.

 

[Jukain]

When did Haunter, or specifically Smogon, go from alluding to a possible Suspect Test to dismissing the possibility entirely?



With or without a Suspect Test, Scolipede is still open to the possibility of a ban just as much as a complex ban or clause.

Vertex, I've made pretty clear that suspect testing Baton Pass (or its components) won't come down to a community vote. We'll take into consideration the discussion that is currently taking place in this thread, then decide on our own.

Also, I'd like those who're suggesting to limit the move Baton Pass to 2-3 members on any given team to elaborate on their proposal. Why would 3 baton passers be acceptable and 4-5 wouldn't? From what I've seen, full Baton Pass teams need 6 dedicated baton passers to be successfull and every Pokémon is pretty much essential to set up Espeon for the sweep.

Scolipede and Espeon can't sweep teams on their own lol. Come on man. The real issue for me is whether it should be restricted to 3 members or 4.

These posts should speak for themselves.

 

[The_Derpy_Chicken]

Well. I think the pro-ban arguments are finally getting through (most) peoples thick skulls. Finally, we're getting somewhere! As for the nerf, I think it should be three BP'ers allowed. The Scolipede/Espeon/Sylveon trio has obvious strength, and seem to pretty much do all the heavy lifting, which means it won't become completely unviable. They can have three supporting teammates who will not be able to use BP, and in my mind, this qualifies as a BP team, since it is based around a BP core. Only having three BP'ers will also mean that the overall rate at which the chain is worn down will be twice as high.

(Hmm... there was something else I was going to address... I can't think of what it was. Maybe I'll think of it later.)

 

[TheDuckChris]

The debate is down to picking between 3 and 4, and based on this evidence I think it'd be a mistake not to cap at 3.

This is definitely good work, someone get this man a beer. Can you speculate on whether or not your team would have worked with only 3 passers? Also do you think this version of the team is as "autopilot" as full BP, or does it take more skill to play? Does it still fulfill all the reasons we are discussing nerfing Baton Pass in the first place or have some things been mitigated?

 

[Jukain]

This is definitely good work, someone get this man a beer. Can you speculate on whether or not your team would have worked with only 3 passers? Also do you think this version of the team is as "autopilot" as full BP, or does it take more skill to play? Does it still fulfill all the reasons we are discussing nerfing Baton Pass in the first place or have some things been mitigated?

Meh I don't think the same type of thing would have worked with 3 BPers. Your best bet for 3 BP is multiple quick pass w/ Scoli + Espy + Smearg probably like Albacore was doing, I think at that point it's been mitigated enough.

There's a little less autopilot, but it's still extremely easy to win/straightforward to play.

 

[Over Zealous]

Meh I don't think the same type of thing would have worked with 3 BPers. Your best bet for 3 BP is multiple quick pass w/ Scoli + Espy + Smearg probably like Albacore was doing, I think at that point it's been mitigated enough.

There's a little less autopilot, but it's still extremely easy to win/straightforward to play.

But is guaranteed x3 Speed and x2-3 Def + 2 Passers like Sylveon and Espeon more manageable than 6 Passers that lack reliable and simultaneous stat boosts, and must run stat boosts separately?

If Scolipede shouldn't be banned (which is in the realm of possibility) why not? A Baton Pass core of Scolipede, Espeon and/or Smeargle and/or Sylveon is still incredibly effective.

 

[Jukain]

But is guaranteed x3 Speed and x2-3 Def + 2 Passers like Sylveon and Espeon more manageable than 6 Passers that lack reliable and simultaneously stat boosts, and must run stat boosts separately?

If Scolipede shouldn't be banned (which is in the realm of possibility) why not? A Baton Pass core of Scolipede, Espeon and/or Smeargle and/or Sylveon is still incredibly effective.

No, it really isn't. From personal experience I can say that this sort of core does not work consistently at all.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

If Scolipede shouldn't be banned (which is in the realm of possibility) why not?

because for the Umpteenth time, Speed Boost Scolipede is not broken outside of BP chains. . .
Holy hell. . .

 

[Over Zealous]

because for the Umpteenth time, Speed Boost Scolipede is not broken outside of BP chains. . .
Holy hell. . .

And for the trillionth time, Speed Boost Scolipede is used in conjunction with Baton Pass chains. Smogon bans for a specific uncompetitive/broken/overcentralizing set, and doesn't concern itself with preserving its other niches. That's why Blaziken was banned, and not Speed Boost.

 

[CyclicCompound]

And for the trillionth time, Speed Boost Scolipede is used in conjunction with Baton Pass chains. Smogon bans for a specific uncompetitive/broken/overcentralizing set, and doesn't concern itself with preserving its other niches. That's why Blaziken was banned, and not Speed Boost.

Scolipede with Baton Pass is not inherently broken. It is the rest of the team that makes it broken. Quick Pass Scolipede is absolutely fine, and is relatively common.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

And for the trillionth time, Speed Boost Scolipede is used in conjunction with Baton Pass chains. Smogon bans for a specific uncompetitive/broken/overcentralizing set, and doesn't concern itself with preserving its other niches. That's why Blaziken was banned, and not Speed Boost.

Oh, so if it's used in conjunction with BP chains it needs to be removed?

Here's the thing, you remove the BP chain, you remove Scoli's "Broken-ness" when used in a BP chain. Why ban something that isn't broken. . ?

Ah, Blaziken was banned for an ENTIRELY different reason. . .
After setting up, it's nearly impossible to stop. Priority? What's that? It's THE prime Late Game sweeper.
EDIT: Inb4 you bring up TFlame. That's the only thing able to stop it from running through teams. . .

See the reasons for mKanga getting the boot.