We all know how Steelix, Camerupt, Shednija and Stunfisk can, in theory, counter Magnezone, but can we discuss something esle that are more viable in UU? For example, AV Snorlax, Rotom H and Mega Ampharous, things that aren't outclassed in their roles or don't do anything but counter Magnezone?
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np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]
- Thread starter kokoloko
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The biggest problem for Magnezone imo is the fact that all of its counters have no reliable recovery. In the case of AV Snorlax, it has no recovery. RestTalk generally prevents Mega-Ampharos from running Focus Blast... you know, the move that shits on Magnezone? But considering that Mega-Amps gets 3HKOed by Flash Cannon, you only have one shot to beat Zone if you don't run RestTalk (Zone can outspeed and 2HKO on the 2nd switch-in) Rotom-H has to run a SpDef set to hold up against Specs Magnezone, but this raises two issues. First, Overheat is stupid obvious and nothing is stopping the Magnezone user from bringing in a bulky Water-type to take an uninvested Overheat. The second is Pain Split. Again, it is generally really obvious when Rotom-H has to use Pain Split or risk having a response come in and letting Zone KO it next switch-in. Lanturn is perhaps the best as it 4x resists Flash Cannon, actually gets healed via Volt Absorb, but it is vulnerable to HP Grass and can't recover HP outside of a RestTalk set or Leftovers / Volt Absorb.
The other problem I have with Zone is its durability. It resists Rocks, is immune to Toxic, and will generally be heavily invested in HP to tank out more hits (and activate Analytic as much as possible) with its great defensive typing (3 weaknesses ,of which, only Ground-types are even semi-safe coming in directly)
The other problem I have with Zone is its durability. It resists Rocks, is immune to Toxic, and will generally be heavily invested in HP to tank out more hits (and activate Analytic as much as possible) with its great defensive typing (3 weaknesses ,of which, only Ground-types are even semi-safe coming in directly)
Probably not anything new, but it seems like Magnezone and mixed Hydregion would make for a pretty terrifying wallbreaking core. Sans the fighting weakness they have excellent type synergy, and can form a volt-turn duo if you want. Maybe couple it with Offensive Spikes Roserade to really make M-Amphy and Snorlax suffer.
I noticed this point having been touched on, but only in the slightest. In regards to how Magnezone will affect Hydreigon usage or vice-versa, Magnezone actually contributes to breaking Hydreigon.
The one reliable "counter" to Hydreigon, besides the dedicated special walls, is Florges. In fact, it's usually the go-to counter. At the same time, Flash Cannon from Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone absolutely destroys Florges; its either forced out and takes additional hazards damage without getting to heal up or it stays in and gets wrecked by the hit. At the same time, Hydreigon can happily and easily remove checks to Magnezone, such as Mega-Ampharos or Rotom-H. The combination of Volt Switch* and U-turn between Magnezone and Hydreigon already makes them hard to deal with, and their asinine power levels only make that issue worse. So essentially, adding a Meinshao or other Fighting-type [access to a pivot move is a plus] actually gives yourself a very potent core that at the end of the day, that has like one or two extremely obscure checks or counters.
The old VoltTurn team I ran took advantage of this, and I loved using that team, but at the end of the day, Magnezone isn't good for this tier unless Chansey / Blissey comes down with it.
*Nidoking and Nidoqueen already form a similar core with Hydreigon, as they can remove Florges with their STAB, but Magnezone's access to a pivot move, better typing, and significantly higher Special Attack makes it much more threatening.
The one reliable "counter" to Hydreigon, besides the dedicated special walls, is Florges. In fact, it's usually the go-to counter. At the same time, Flash Cannon from Choice Specs Analytic Magnezone absolutely destroys Florges; its either forced out and takes additional hazards damage without getting to heal up or it stays in and gets wrecked by the hit. At the same time, Hydreigon can happily and easily remove checks to Magnezone, such as Mega-Ampharos or Rotom-H. The combination of Volt Switch* and U-turn between Magnezone and Hydreigon already makes them hard to deal with, and their asinine power levels only make that issue worse. So essentially, adding a Meinshao or other Fighting-type [access to a pivot move is a plus] actually gives yourself a very potent core that at the end of the day, that has like one or two extremely obscure checks or counters.
The old VoltTurn team I ran took advantage of this, and I loved using that team, but at the end of the day, Magnezone isn't good for this tier unless Chansey / Blissey comes down with it.
*Nidoking and Nidoqueen already form a similar core with Hydreigon, as they can remove Florges with their STAB, but Magnezone's access to a pivot move, better typing, and significantly higher Special Attack makes it much more threatening.
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Only reason I'd bring that up is because the person mentioned it. Stunfisk is terrible we all know that. It's like suggesting dusclops to tank anything in OU, I know.
what would you think if blissey came down, seeing as it appears much more likely to drop than chansey
Mazz edit: That'd work too. Added that to my post.
pif edit: LOL I WANT BLISSEY
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I hope everyone understood that I was joking with that (I did say "for the lols"). Anyway, on to more experienced and better players' suggestions...
Things that I've noticed have fallen out of favor since Magnezone dropped:
Slowbro: Gives a completely free switch in for Magnezone's number one partner in crime, Hydreigon, and can't take a Volt Switch or Flash Cannon too well. Suicune a lot more common now
Darmanitan: Doesn't outspeed Hydreigon, so many have chosen to use Victini instead
Mienshao: Probably the best Poke in the tier right now since Slowbro is gone. Fastest Scarfer, beats up on Hydreigon, Magnezone, and the Umbreon attempting to wall Hydreigon. No ghosts around because of Hydreigon so its HJK hurts face. Also switches in to Dark Pulse.
Will be interesting to see if Hydreigon + Magnezone are both allowed in the tier, as the combination is so brutal I had to stop running Stall.
Slowbro: Gives a completely free switch in for Magnezone's number one partner in crime, Hydreigon, and can't take a Volt Switch or Flash Cannon too well. Suicune a lot more common now
Darmanitan: Doesn't outspeed Hydreigon, so many have chosen to use Victini instead
Mienshao: Probably the best Poke in the tier right now since Slowbro is gone. Fastest Scarfer, beats up on Hydreigon, Magnezone, and the Umbreon attempting to wall Hydreigon. No ghosts around because of Hydreigon so its HJK hurts face. Also switches in to Dark Pulse.
Will be interesting to see if Hydreigon + Magnezone are both allowed in the tier, as the combination is so brutal I had to stop running Stall.
man, i wanted so badly to retest magnezone and vote UU for it because i'd love to finally use the evo of my favorite mon, but it's SO GODDAMN powerful. it's really easy to get it in with those 70 (fully invested) hp / 130 defense / 90 special defense and those whopping 12 resistances and start firing off "life orb" special attacks from 591 sp.atk. basically all the support it needs is stealth rock really, since it can simply volt switch out of its counters (which are REALLY REALLY REALLY limited).
you guys should already start thinking about how to counter magnezone, cause i don't want it banned, but... :/
you guys should already start thinking about how to counter magnezone, cause i don't want it banned, but... :/
You can't "counter" Magnezone in the strictest sense of the word. Volt Switch is just ridiculous for this thing. Sure, you can use shit like SpDef Rotom-H and SpDef Mega-Ampharos, there is absolutely nothing stopping the Magnezone user from thinking "oh, I'll just click Volt Switch because I can't break Rotom-H / Mega-Amps with Zone". These two have no reliable recovery, Rotom-H is weak to Rocks, and Mega-Amps has no Leftovers. I think you get the idea of how fucking easy it is to just click Volt Switch and force these counters out with something that can outright destroy these two (Hydreigon, Nidoking, Reckless Mienshao) No Ground-type is safe against Zone because of Flash Cannon. Sure, you can use Lanturn to block Volt Switch and 4x resist Flash Cannon, but to even think about using something as obscure as that should tell you how centralizing Magnezone is capable of being. Due to Zone's bulk and typing, virtually any wall is a free switch-in for it bar Hippowdon.
And if you thought all you had to worry about was Specs, well, Assault Vest lets Zone hold up a bit better against offensive teams by bolstering its special bulk to take a few more special attacks to make up for its low Speed. It may not hit as hard as Specs, but it still can hit about as hard as many other wallbreakers currently in the tier thanks to Analytic giving it an effective Life Orb boost. In short, you don't counter Magnezone. You find something to outspeed it and hope and prey it can't cause too much damage to you for the cleaner its paired with to finish you off (think Scarf Shao, Scarf Hydra, Scarf Cross, etc.)
And if you thought all you had to worry about was Specs, well, Assault Vest lets Zone hold up a bit better against offensive teams by bolstering its special bulk to take a few more special attacks to make up for its low Speed. It may not hit as hard as Specs, but it still can hit about as hard as many other wallbreakers currently in the tier thanks to Analytic giving it an effective Life Orb boost. In short, you don't counter Magnezone. You find something to outspeed it and hope and prey it can't cause too much damage to you for the cleaner its paired with to finish you off (think Scarf Shao, Scarf Hydra, Scarf Cross, etc.)
well there are ground pokemon and shedinja and manectric (preevo) and i guess jolteon
not that I dont think maggy isn't broken
Even lanturn can't safely switch in on mag if it runs the usual set. it can't survive two specs hp grasses.
Can someone explain to me how its okay that in matches with two banded victini's the opponents just take turns OHKOing eachothers teams because absolutely nothing can deal with it?
If you don't have a way to stop Victini, whether it be Slowbro, Mega-Ampharos, Suicune, or Pursuit (from Krow, Krook, and Cross) then you should be dying every time Victini comes in. It's A+ in the Viability Rankings for a reason; if you don't have a way to deal with it, you will get wrecked. This is why a lot of offensive teams run Pursuit on Choice Band Heracross. Victini gets a kill with V-create and then it's dead no matter what it does once Hera comes in for the kill. There's also Hydreigon, a new offensive check to Victin as well as Mega-Houndoom, who is actually immune to both STABs before mega evolving thanks to Flash Fire.
Yeah but...
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 232-274 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 176-207 (45.8 - 53.9%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO (still faster at -1)
Assuming Ampharos is already evolved, its a goner if it isn't.
Pursuit is the only solid way to deal with victini and its pretty flimsy from what I can see. -1 Victini is still considerably bulkier than most offensive threats in the metagame right now. (puts him at 61, above mienshao, houndoom, honchcrow, darmanitan) Especially when you consider victini's very solid base 100 HP.
But every example you've given requires a sacrifice. And if you're prediction is off with the pursuit, Victini can likely end up taking the pursuit user out as well. Even banded heracross can't take victini out at -1 unless it switches out. So it's really a game of chance.
Considering Hydreigon which absolutely can be dealt with very easily was "Potentially broken" I'm just curious why victini was never considered for this as its counters are all very flimsily and it its not afraid of un-boosted pursuits even at -1.
The hazard (and likely Pursuit) weakness is the biggest factor holding Victini back, as it often switches out a lot and absolutely needs anti-hazard support to be able to keep on wrecking. Also its counters are bulky as shit (physically defensive Mega Ampharos pls); Victini would need prediction in order to catch the bulky Waters on the switch, and even then Slowbro can simply Regenerate that health right back to survive a future V-Create or two. Suicune is a more unfortunate case, as it cannot outspeed -1 Jolly Victini, but it does still have enough health to take 2 more V-Creates to KO, which is all any Pursuit user needs to finish Tini. While they are switching away from the Bolt Strike, an Electric resist / immunity would be sent in and cost Victini further momentum. It doesn't help that most Ground-types set up Stealth Rock, not to mention Swampert is among them, meaning you'd have to focus not only on getting Victini back in, but also get rid of SR before you do so.
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If you switch into Slowbro and realize Victini's locked into Bolt Strike then that's essentially a free-switch in to any electric resist/ground-type on your team. Your Slowbro will also not be taking much damage assuming no rocks on the field thanks to lefties + regen.
Victini was always fine in UU in 5th gen and it's fine now, really.
Victini is very versatile and hard to beat, but not impossible. Last gen i ran rhyperior and it was a great check to physical tini, but grass knot screwed him over completely. Houndoom is typically a great poke to straight up check victini. If youre worried about scarf tini, then you coukd run sucker punch.
Victini is good, but i think you should be more concerned about magnezone tbh...
Victini is good, but i think you should be more concerned about magnezone tbh...
I agree Magnezone's presence increases Mienshao's viability also as they form a good VolTurn core together. Magnezone's slow Volt Switches can bring Mienshao safely in to outspeed and either finish the job Volt Switch started or continue to grab momentum via U-turn.
The only major downside I see of zone's is it's low speed. Meaning if it can't force switches it's health will be chipped away and thus through the match worn down until it can be ko'ed by faster defensive 'mons. Also, netting an HP Grass on counters like Swampert is usually only possible if Swampert is a predicted switch-in, since otherwise it should run some speed Ev's to outspeed zone and zone shouldn't as it damages it's own Analytic.
Magnezone is majorly just a nuker and volt switcher. Although it's excellent defensive typing, max EV invested health and good bulk, it can't really work well as to switch it in on resisted attacks. Even if it can survive a 2hko, after it nets a kill/volt switches, It doesn't have enough HP yet to be nothing but an HP fodder. A prime example I had when my Magnezone scored nothing was switching it in on a predicted Honchkrow's Sucker Punch only to be surprisingly 1hko'd by a Superpower.
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 322-382 (93.6 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Another thing, I agree Magnezone probably belongs to BL, but I really hate the mindset of 'X pokemon is a viable counter but it's generally not a welcomed 'mon in the tier so it's absurd to think about using it'. Shedinja would be terrible to use, no doubt, but something like Lanturn is a good and viable Pokemon in UU even outside of Magnezone's presence and if being it's counter is what it needed to jump that jump to UU, I welcome it. Lanturn is by no means a bad 'mon and if it's welcoming is what needed to keep Magnezones (probably not enough), so let it come and let the tier adjust itself to the obviously new top tier threat. That's what they do, top tier threats, they help shape the metagame so it's ok if they raise, otherwise underrated ,Pokemon into usage.
Team preview kind of prevents this though. Just like you don't go spamming volt switch if you know the opponent has a bunch of ground types. I am saying the amount of teams that don't have slowbro + ground type is very high and all I'm being told without a certain mix of very specific pokemon (Or sacrificing one) Victini remains borderline impossible to deal with, but that's totally fine for some reason? That's what I don't understand.
Hazards are much less of a deal to keep away this gen because of defog, which I've been using with my victini team, great success ensures.
I don't normally call people out, but fuck it. I'm going to because I'm a bit annoyed with the ignorance and lack of knowledge of a real battle situation shown:
Ok, there's a lot of things I find wrong with this, so I'll break it down. Yes, Victini can use Bolt Strike to predict a Slowbro / Suicune switch-in. While this will aid in breaking Suicune, Slowbro has Leftovers and Regenerator. This means it will heal off ~39% of the damage instantly just by switching out after Tini hits it. So, in essence, you're doing 21.4%-32.5% damage. Not a whole lot and it means not even a second prediction with Bolt Strike will beat Slowbro later (though Rocks does make this a bit riskier for Slowbro)
You obviously have not read any of my posts about Mega-Ampharos, whether it be in my Mega-Ampharos discussion thread or earlier on in this thread. Most people know by now that I'm a big fan of physically defensive Mega-Ampharos because of its ability to absolutely hard check any Victini, and counter any set that isn't CB. Obviously, when I see Victini in team preview and I have physically defensive Mega-Ampharos, I'm going to get that mega evo ASAP, maybe even turn 1 if I can. This is basic stuff.
Next is the Pursuit issue. You think that all of Heracross, Honchkrow, and Krookodile can only use Pursuit on Victini? Hell no. Krook and Cross also have Knock Off, so it's a damn big risk for Victini to stay in against them. It's no safer against Honchkrow either thanks to Sucker Punch. Odds are, Victini can't chance this and will be forced out by the sheer threat of a Knock Off / Sucker Punch from these 3, which is why I listed them as the Pursuit users that are best to take out Victini. Because they put Victini in a mind-game. Most of the time, they come out on top.
Also, I absolutely love how you just ignore Stealth Rock. If you see Victini in team preview, this should be one of your first goals; get Rocks up and keep them up to limit Victini's ability to switch-in. Sure it has decent bulk thanks to that base 100 HP, but it isn't going to look so hot at 75% starting out. Sure, it may still be bulkier than some offensive threats at -1 thanks to 100 / 100 / 100 defenses, but the Speed drop can't be ignored either. Anyway, I've elaborated enough. Just gonna leave you with these Mega-Ampharos calcs, which uses the spread you should have used in the first place because this makes sure Victini will have a near impossible time breaking Slowbro, Suicune, and other bulky Waters:
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 127-150 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 85-101 (22.1 - 26.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock... yikes
As for Bolt Strike and Grass Knot...
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 31-36 (8 - 9.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Ampharos: 43-51 (11.2 - 13.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock
In short, hope you have LO / Specs Psychic. Am I trying to say Victini isn't a threat? Heavens no. It is a threat. It's A+ for a reason; you need to be ready for it, but it's perfectly capable of being beaten if you know what you should be doing against it.
Ok, there's a lot of things I find wrong with this, so I'll break it down. Yes, Victini can use Bolt Strike to predict a Slowbro / Suicune switch-in. While this will aid in breaking Suicune, Slowbro has Leftovers and Regenerator. This means it will heal off ~39% of the damage instantly just by switching out after Tini hits it. So, in essence, you're doing 21.4%-32.5% damage. Not a whole lot and it means not even a second prediction with Bolt Strike will beat Slowbro later (though Rocks does make this a bit riskier for Slowbro)
You obviously have not read any of my posts about Mega-Ampharos, whether it be in my Mega-Ampharos discussion thread or earlier on in this thread. Most people know by now that I'm a big fan of physically defensive Mega-Ampharos because of its ability to absolutely hard check any Victini, and counter any set that isn't CB. Obviously, when I see Victini in team preview and I have physically defensive Mega-Ampharos, I'm going to get that mega evo ASAP, maybe even turn 1 if I can. This is basic stuff.
Next is the Pursuit issue. You think that all of Heracross, Honchkrow, and Krookodile can only use Pursuit on Victini? Hell no. Krook and Cross also have Knock Off, so it's a damn big risk for Victini to stay in against them. It's no safer against Honchkrow either thanks to Sucker Punch. Odds are, Victini can't chance this and will be forced out by the sheer threat of a Knock Off / Sucker Punch from these 3, which is why I listed them as the Pursuit users that are best to take out Victini. Because they put Victini in a mind-game. Most of the time, they come out on top.
Also, I absolutely love how you just ignore Stealth Rock. If you see Victini in team preview, this should be one of your first goals; get Rocks up and keep them up to limit Victini's ability to switch-in. Sure it has decent bulk thanks to that base 100 HP, but it isn't going to look so hot at 75% starting out. Sure, it may still be bulkier than some offensive threats at -1 thanks to 100 / 100 / 100 defenses, but the Speed drop can't be ignored either. Anyway, I've elaborated enough. Just gonna leave you with these Mega-Ampharos calcs, which uses the spread you should have used in the first place because this makes sure Victini will have a near impossible time breaking Slowbro, Suicune, and other bulky Waters:
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 127-150 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 85-101 (22.1 - 26.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock... yikes
As for Bolt Strike and Grass Knot...
252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 31-36 (8 - 9.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Life Orb Victini Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Ampharos: 43-51 (11.2 - 13.3%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock
In short, hope you have LO / Specs Psychic. Am I trying to say Victini isn't a threat? Heavens no. It is a threat. It's A+ for a reason; you need to be ready for it, but it's perfectly capable of being beaten if you know what you should be doing against it.
Alright so tell me what mega (with no recovery) I absolutely need to tank Mega Houndoom or hydreigon. Because they were considered potentially broken. Or how about Zygarde? Slowbro deals with him much better than mega Ampharos deals with Victini. Especially since all sets need to be considered when looking at something from a balance perspective And an unexpected victini would send his "Counters" flying.
I wouldn't be pressing the issue if I didn't have experience first hand. Using a victini team recently and I've had no problem plowing though most teams.
But yes, letting my opponent get stealth rock up and aimlessly bringing victini in countless time while I can see a pursuiter on their team as well as spamming choiced bolt strike over u-turn while there is still ground types around is an average battle situation because you obviously think I'm an idiot.
I know Victini is pressured by those three, but it comes down to a 50% chance. So I don't really see how the pursuiters have a huge enherient advantage unless the Victini user does not know they're own threats. If you go for anything but pursuit and Victini stays in you win, but you lose if you go for pursuit and vice Versa. Against heracross, victini has a better chance to stay in since megahorn only kills him 85% of the time while pursuit would 100% of the time. Should I also mention that scarfed victini is still faster than all these guys banded at -1? They're great at countering ONE set, that's really useful...
So for the 5% of M-Ampharos that actually run bold max defense, banded victini is tankable But I can't believe you're only bringing attention what I brought up and not the several other potential sets victini has, Including special sets. While not as wall breaking, still deserve some mention. Since the same argument has been used against other banned pokemon in the tier. And I really fail to see what MAmpharos does outside soak up V-Creates, nothing does over 50% to victini, which is especially bad on special sets that can ruin your day.
I'm just confused how something with several solid counters is considered potentially broken but this guy with half counters that are obliterated by different sets that are still very viable. But its fine because banded pursuit kills him half the time.
hold on, what? since when the fuck does slowbro deal with zygarde, unless it's carrying ice beam (which non AV variants really shouldn't)? zygarde can just set up a sub, and start setting up, and phaze out slowbro if it tries to get up boosts of its own, while an unboosted scald can't even take out a sub.
also, mega amph soaks up other sets as well lol, specs psyshock and blue flare both do roughly 30% with the phys def set. I don't know how the fuck you got the idea that Mamphy can't handle victini that well, but slowbro can handle zygarde just fine.
also, mega amph soaks up other sets as well lol, specs psyshock and blue flare both do roughly 30% with the phys def set. I don't know how the fuck you got the idea that Mamphy can't handle victini that well, but slowbro can handle zygarde just fine.
Usage stats are out. Any drops o.o?
http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-04/
I am not sure what OU stats to look at
http://sim.smogon.com:8080/Stats/2014-04/
I am not sure what OU stats to look at
ou stats wont matter, as the changes will be implemented next month iirc. raikou, shaymin, croaker, and milotic (lol ?_?) all rose from ru, though.
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