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Chain Chomp

Man, I guess Garchomp will truly become a metagame menace now, possibly even worse then Salamence...

Be proud, Smogonites, you have unleashed a terror upon our metagame ;_;

So basically only Cresselia counters it? Isnt that overcentralizing the metagame, if anything is?
 
Phiphler said:
Man, I guess Garchomp will truly become a metagame menace now, possibly even worse then Salamence...

Be proud, Smogonites, you have unleashed a terror upon our metagame ;_;

So basically only Cresselia counters it? Isnt that overcentralizing the metagame, if anything is?
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Garchomp will never become "worse than salamence."

The only reason this idea was good in the first place was because it could potentially surprise a lot of people... But if everyone starts using it (like they have been,) uhh.... expect it to fall down to the popularity it deserves.

The idea needs to be uncommon in order to be effective, otherwise people will be reconsidering their Garchomp counters.
 
Garchomp will never become "worse than salamence."

The only reason this idea was good in the first place was because it could potentially surprise a lot of people... But if everyone starts using it (like they have been,) uhh.... expect it to fall down to the popularity it deserves.

The idea needs to be uncommon in order to be effective, otherwise people will be reconsidering their Garchomp counters.
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Regardless of the popularity of the set, the "surprise" factor will always be there in one form or another. Now I'm not going to say that Garchomp will necessarily become a bigger threat than Salamence (not that that's much of a stretch), but nevertheless this set will undoubtedly increase his versatility and therefore make him that much more of a threat, and that's in the long run too, when Chain Chomp's initial popularity has died down.

If people start expecting the Chain Chomp set, I could easily just run Choice Scarf/Band/pure physical Life Orb, and get really great results because, by your logic, nobody would really see it coming because they'd fully expect, and would proceed to attempt to counter, Chain Chomp. There will always be a degree of uncertainty when dealing with Garchomp, now more than ever, just like Salamence. It's really too soon to just say that Garchomp will "never be worse than Salamence" at this point.
 
No, you are right.
I think I did speak too soon after all. I didn't consider the possibility (reality) that Phiphler meant this would improve the effectiveness of Garchomp in general; Which I agree with. For some reason I thought that everyone was getting over-excited by the attraction of this new build in particular.

Anyway, I don't think the Chain-Chomp build will become as standard as the Specsmence because for me (everyone?) a lot of the viability of the CS Salamence build comes from the option of switching into Earthquakes (more common/easily anticipated than the electric attacks Garchomp would do the same for?)

+ Spikes dmg avoidance?
 
jUkes said:
Garchomp will never become "worse than salamence."
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Garchomp was worse than Salamence the instant Game Freak gave it 102 base Speed and buffed Outrage.

Anyway, this set's weaknesses are Meteor being a one-off deal and Life Orb quickly draining its health. It might be considered that Meteor and Fire Blast have a slight accuracy issue, as well. It's also slower than your typical Garchomp, lending it to be outsped by other Garchomps and +Speed pokémon in the 279-299 range plus the usuals (like Starmie).

In other words, you don't need Cresselia to protect you from the invincible new-fangled Garchomp.
 
Mr.E said:
Garchomp was worse than Salamence the instant Game Freak gave it 102 base Speed and buffed Outrage.

Anyway, this set's weaknesses are Meteor being a one-off deal and Life Orb quickly draining its health. It might be considered that Meteor and Fire Blast have a slight accuracy issue, as well. It's also slower than your typical Garchomp, lending it to be outsped by other Garchomps and +Speed pokémon in the 279-299 range plus the usuals (like Starmie).

In other words, you don't need Cresselia to protect you from the invincible new-fangled Garchomp.
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Noone said it was invincible. It's just Garchomp with the added ability of being able to take out physical walls.
 
In other words, you don't need Cresselia to protect you from the invincible new-fangled Garchomp.
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Well, not entirely. "Protect you" would imply that you won't be taking damage or casualties from Garchomp. Starmie, who you mentioned, is OHKO'd if it tries to switch into Draco Meteor with Stealth Rocks down. And the number of things that can outspeed Garchomp AND take one of his attacks is very small.

But you're spot on about the weakness being Draco Meteor's one off deal. Prediction is everything here.
 
Really, I don't see what the problem with a 210 BP move that is only resisted by one type...ohhh.

Anyway, this set is cool cos it has the whole surprise factor, but Mence has always had that. It is unpleasant switching in your Special wall only to get a Dragon Claw in the face.
 
For all of you whiners:

Counters:
Cresselia, mesprit, uxie, mismagius, celebi, claydol, zapdos, ludicolo, meganium (with light screen), milotic. Further, in sandstream stuff like lunatone and aerodactyl can work when you are in a tight spot.

A lot more stuff can take a few hits from this, but I left them out if they were outclassed in their own niche...Example: milotic vs suicune, milotic has higher SpDef, Recover, and more SpAtk. Some pokes than can go toe-to-toe with this set were left out because they aren't useful otherwise or their usefulness was ruined by the set-up they needed to counter this set and when that happens (IMO) the threat has won.
 
Its a nice moveset but its currently being seriously overrated especially by alot of people that dont use it correctly.
 
For all of you whiners:

Counters:
Cresselia, mesprit, uxie, mismagius, celebi, claydol, zapdos, ludicolo, meganium (with light screen), milotic. Further, in sandstream stuff like lunatone and aerodactyl can work when you are in a tight spot.
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A lot of those things depend on what they switch into to be fair.

Zapdos has no chance as he is slower, and after Stealth Rock is easily KO'd by Draco Meteor, so even if Garchomp was to EQ on the switch, he would be able to KO the next turn, unless Zapdos was +Speed.

Meganium's a nice one as it takes all his attacks rather easily, but for all it's sturdiness it can't really threaten Garchomp. It could do some free Psuedopassing though, so I guess it is one of the better Pokemon for handling this set but don't expect people to use it any more...

Mismagius could force it's way in and use it's speed to Will-o-Wisp, but it really doesn't take Draco Meteors well with it's low HP stat and it doesn't have many spare EV's after the obligatory speed and SpAtk.

The rest seem quite capable, but aside from Cresselia, Milotic and maybe Claydol and Celebi, they aren't particularly common so hopefully this will encourage the use of some of the other Pokemon.
 
I just looked at Garchomp's Analysis. Chain Chomp isn't there.

Really like the set, which makes it like Salamence in its mixed-ness. 'Course, Garchomp can't go all Special like 'Mence can. Please note, this post was not intended to start any Garchomp vs. Salamence fights.
 
Well Lee, I'm glad you thought about what you had to say before posting...

Lee said:
A lot of those things depend on what they switch into to be fair.

Zapdos has no chance as he is slower, and after Stealth Rock is easily KO'd by Draco Meteor, so even if Garchomp was to EQ on the switch, he would be able to KO the next turn, unless Zapdos was +Speed.

Zapdos isn't nearly KO'ed by a single draco meteor off that thing...your opponent would need stealth rock and sandstream to have a shot at taking out Zapdos (with the second draco meteor), and since zapdos has roost it wins usually...


Meganium's a nice one as it takes all his attacks rather easily, but for all it's sturdiness it can't really threaten Garchomp. It could do some free Psuedopassing though, so I guess it is one of the better Pokemon for handling this set but don't expect people to use it any more...

I'm not sure how useful Chain Chomp would be on an in game team, but I was taking about competitive pokemon on an online simulator and HP: Ice is fairly standard.

Mismagius could force it's way in and use it's speed to Will-o-Wisp, but it really doesn't take Draco Meteors well with it's low HP stat and it doesn't have many spare EV's after the obligatory speed and SpAtk.

Try running a damage calc before you say stuff like this!
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You, personally, might be having trouble EVing these pokemon if you think "Chain chomp" tears them apart.
 
Alright, since I have so much trouble with my EV's, I'll use the standards from the analysis section.

Zapdos runs 252HP and no Special Defence. A Life Orbed Draco Meteor deals 61.72% - 72.66%. As for Stealth Rock (which Zapdos takes a whopping 25% damage from, lest you forgot), the whole theory of Chain Chomp relies on it. They go hand in hand, so we assume Stealth Rock is up. Zapdos will barely survive granted - my manual calcuations were 5% out. As for "not nearly KO'd..." I think you may want to recheck your calcs on that one. Assuming minimum damage, Zapdos will land tidily on 14% health.

Meganium very rarely ran HP Ice last gen and even less so now it has the essential Aromatherapy to play with. It takes a back seat to HP Fire 9 times out of 10 and I don't see Garchomp changing this since he is hit by Grass Knot, whereas Steels lol at Grass Knot and HP Ice.

Mismagius? Damage calculation? As you wish. Standard Mismagius = 116HP, no Sp Def EV's. Life Orbed Draco Meteor deals 72% - 84%. And yet you were so quick to disagree with my simple statement that "Mismagius doesn't take Draco Meteors too well?" Maybe you should be whipping out the damage calculator?

Good to see you put so much thought into your post though!
 
Yeah, that EV remark of mine was there for a reason...if you aren't investing in HP and SpDef you aren't going to take draco meteors well. I don't think any of the analysis' were written after the creation of this set...so clearly they were written without "chain chomp" in mind and are therefore it isn't the best idea to look to them for counters. It's common sense really...though I now know why some quality players refrain from posting. I'm done here too.

On the subject of damage calcs... I performed some for each of the pokemon I thought would work.
 
Okay, since husk won't do it, I feel like shooting down Lee. And in the process proving that Zapdos is actually a vary defensive Pokemon.

252 HP / 16 SDef Calm Zapdos taking aforementioned Garchomp's Draco Metoer twice (aka a 315 BP neutral move off of 259 SAtk):
63~74% Yah, no 2HKO, even in Sandstream.... Wait, is it? eh, it still survives two of them so you can Roost of the damage. That's not a very big investment for a Defensive Zapdos to make. 16 EVs. Whoo!

I will come back with a Zapdos spread that handles this and is still physically defensive. The special defensive version is the analysis Roosting one, except you give it 228 SDef EVs and a Calm Nature. For reference:

252 HP / 228 SDef Calm Zapdos taking aforemention Draco Meteors:
51~60%

Edit/Part 2:
Optimal EV spread for a Zapdos that you want to just barely survive 2 Draco Meteors from Chain Chomp and live to Roost off the damage:

Bold Nature; 252 HP / 120 Def / 104 SDef / 32 Speed (coincidentally giving you 259 Def, ChainChomps SAtk... Random fact....)

What else was this Zapdos meant to take originally? It can't take any Outrages with any reliability (47-55% off Jolly Garchomp). Same thing from CB Dragon Claws.... Eh..... I don't feel like doing more random calcs...
 
*is shot down*

I had been looking at it from the standpoint of using already existant spreads to counter it, but if this is as dangerous as it looks on paper, you're probaby right to propose new EV spreads and natures for the sole purpose of countering it.
 
I always used Special Defensive Zapdos in Adv, I ran 252 HP / 176 SDef, so that's taking on ChainChomp rather well IMO.
 
Mence said:
Is Mantine also a possible counter to this specific moveset?

Ice Beam is a 2hko with Expert Belt correct?
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Depends on how many EV's you are using, but with a small investment it is fairly easy to OHKO, not 2.

Mantine seems to work fairly well actually. Obviously the fire/ground moves are ruled out by typing. With 252 HP and +Special Defence (leaving tons of Special Attack for the OHKO), Mantine isn't 2HKO'd even with the 25% from Stealth Rock.
 
But Spanky, what else does Mantine do? I guess you could say Infernape, depending on it's set.... And Manaphy, lol, Bullet Seed for the kill. Otherwise, Vappy/Lapras are better for walling bulky waters.
 
Mantine: Leftovers/Expert Belt

Ice Beam
Toxic
Taunt
Surf

Prevents Rest/Substitute/Tail Glow Manaphy, ResTalk/Calm Mind Cresselia/Suicune, also Handles Dragons effectively:

Salamence's AG

Hydro Pump
Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Fire Blast

Absorbs #1, Handles #4 and # 3. Draco Meteor is strong, but with enough HP/SP D. it can survive.

Flygon CB:

Dragon Claw
Earthquake
Fire Blast
Stone Edge

Handles #2, and # 3 effectively.

handles Chain Chomp as you can already tell.
 
Flygon doesn't handle Chain Chomp at all, seeing as how Chain Chomp is faster and will OHKO with Draco Meteor.

Please discuss Manaphy in another thread.
 
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