Other Speed Tiers in OU

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Jojobobo said:
Jolteon isn't on the list, I think he deserves a mention as he outspeeds a lot of pains in the elite tier (Noivern, Greninja, Talonflame) and can OHKO the lot of them with Specs or LO Volt Switch/HP Ice.

It might also be nice if you listed relevant +1 speeds for common DDers or Scarfers, I appreciate it's trivial to do the math but it would make this a more superior reference material.
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Both Raikou and M-Manectric painfully outclass Jolteon in every class (Except Jolteon has slightly more speed than Raikou). That's probably why it's not here.
 
Just a minor thing, but sitting at Base 30 Speed, I think Reuniclus deserves a mention, being one of the best Offensive Trick Room users.

Since the whole thread is about speed tiers, it's really awesome how you've added the "Scarf-Bait" as well. Shows a lot of mons that are viable in TR in the OU meta game.
 
I think swift swim pokemon in rain should be added because those pokemon will almost always be in the rain once they enter the battlefield. Same for sun and chlorophyl sweepers and sand rush pokemon in the sand.
 
I'll add some stuff in a bit, still compiling what I want to add. In the meantime, how have you guys been liking the faster but lesser used mons? Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Alakazam are sitting way at the top of the list but don't see much usage. What's holding them back?
 
When teambuilding, I often need to know speed stats of bulkier pokemon which usually don't run max speed (50-100 Base Speed), so maybe that's an option to include in the OP? I'll list some examples below. Keep in mind to outspeed the following you need to add one point.

136: 0 Spe Mawile, 0 Spe Mawile-Mega
156: 0 Spe Aegislash, 0 Spe Clefable, 0 Spe Sylveon, 0 Spe Empoleon
158: 0 Spe Tyranitar
164: 0 Spe Chesnaught
166: 0 Spe Scizor
176: 0 Spe Bisharp, 0 Spe Skarmory
177: 76 Spe Tyranitar
186: 0 Spe Scizor-Mega, 0 Spe Heracross-Mega
191: 4 Spe Heatran
192: 0 Spe Blastoise, 0 Spe Blastoise-Mega
196: 0 Spe Venusaur, 0 Spe Venusaur-Mega, 0 Spe Mandibuzz, 0 Spe Goodra, 0 Spe Togekiss
198: 0 Spe Gyarados
199: 252 Spe Azumarill, 252 Spe Mawile, 252 Spe Mawile-Mega
206: 0 Spe Heracross, 0 Spe Suicune
208: 0 Spe Rotom-W
209: 252 Spe Crawdaunt
212: 0 Spe Excadrill
218: 252+ Spe Azumarill, 252+ Spe Mawile, 252+ Spe Mawile-Mega
219: 44 Spe Rotom-W, 4 Spe Landorus-T, 252 Spe Aegislash, 252 Spe Magnezone
221: 252 Spe Tyranitar
226: 0 Spe Gliscor, 0 Spe Kyurem-Black
229: 252+ Spe Crawdaunt, 252 Spe Gothitelle
236: 0 Spe Zapdos, 0 Spe Tentacruel, 0 Spe Shaymin, 0 Spe Celebi
239: 252 Spe Bisharp, 252 Spe Breloom
240: 252+ Spe Aegislash, 252+ Spe Magnezone
241: 252 Spe Tyranitar-Mega
253: 252 Spe Heatran
255: 252 Spe Diggersby
259: 252 Spe Togekiss
261: 252 Spe Gyarados
262: 252+ Spe Bisharp
271: 252 Spe Rotom-W
275: 252 Spe Excadrill
278: 252+ Spe Heatran
280: 252+ Spe Diggersby
281: 252 Spe Landorus-T

Of course you're not guaranteed to outspeed those because they can speed creep, but the Evs listed are what is commonly used on the ladder.
 
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Manectrifier I just added your post to the OP, this is a great example of what I was looking to get discussion on! Interesting that 4 spe Landorus-T just barely outspeeds jolly max Mega Mawile, I guess every EV counts.
 
Hell_Above said:
Both Raikou and M-Manectric painfully outclass Jolteon in every class (Except Jolteon has slightly more speed than Raikou). That's probably why it's not here.
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I don't know, Raikou forgoes Volt Absorb to obtain its best moves (Aura Sphere mainly) and M-Manectric can't learn Shadow Ball. Plus I'd say that as Jolteon's speed is blazingly fast, it's a more comfortable specs user than Raikou; especially with Talonflame, Greninja and Noivern out-speeding and being quite popular. Specs Jolteon also out-damages M-Manectric, albeit at the cost of coverage.

Though it's definitely niche, I'd say it's a better revenge killer for the most part than the other two. It all depends what you're looking for.
 
Stoo said:
351 is the magic number for offensive pokes in ou, it puts you above the base 110s and everything that isnt scarfed, talonflame, greninja, or deoxys-s. this is why thundurus-i at base 111 has such an annoying speed tier, because max plus it hits 353.

when it comes to speed tiering scarfers, with rotom-w ill always run modest every time because the gap between max modest and max timid (406-447) has literally nothing useful in it except adamant scarf lando-t, while scarfchomp is a toss-up between adamant and jolly for whether you need to revenge kill zard x at +1. for the same reasons its usually optimal to run adamant natures on speed boosting sweepers like DD mega gyara and dragonite. mega gyara running adamant at +1 speed will be outsped by mega manectric if it already mevod earlier in the match though, so something to look out for.

personally i would almost always run max speed on everything between 110 and 100, the list of big ou threats in here is pretty significant.
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Technically 105 and up need max speed always. This includes Mega Pinsir, Galvantula, Infernape and the musketeers. Although like it was said, if you're insanely faster than Greninja, like the few Megas and Deoxys-S, then you obviously have some liberty in regards to what you choose to outspeed. Deoxys for example could run max speed on the off chance of only speed tying with one pokemon, itself. This is only really worth considering though if with different nature or EVs you can definitively net new one OHKO/2HKO or survive something after hazards or something. It a matter of probability. Are you more likely to need to speed tie other things, or are you more likely to need that particular extra damage/defense?

As I've said, there's this nebulous gray area for everything between Dragonite (base 80) and Garchomp (base 102). Everything outside of this range tends to run min or max speed, and is easier to account for. While base 100 used to be the old cutoff where you HAD to run Jolly/Timid from the sheer amount of pokemon in that tier, actual sweepers in that range are becoming far less common. It's because the bulk and offensive stats for pokemon in this range vary wildly. Pokemon like Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Kyurem-B, Mew and Celebi have great bulk and defensive abilities where more bulk benefits more than speed. And ironically, the more people acknowledge and understand this trend, the more likely it is to perpetuate. CharX has bulky sets with WoW and Roost or simply Adamant with Dragon Dance. Staraptor likes Adamant with Choice Band for wall breaking. Mew can often go bulky for unique Defog sets. Dragonite with Multiscale and Extremespeed can often afford not to go Jolly with the option of Dragon Dance. This area, this "speed pocket", is where I see speed fluctuate the most and is still the hardest to account for. I STILL don't know how to EV my KyuB I'm considering for these reasons.

Below this is the "speed creep" zone, where most things either run no speed, or only enough to bypass a significant obstacle, usually within 10 base speed points. Heatran for example sits at an unusual base 77. With just a little investment it can outspeed Mega Venusaur at base 80, which is not a bad idea if you want to burn it or get up Substitute before a possible Leech Seed/Sleep Powder. Mega Heracross is below him, either 70 or 75 offhand can't quite remember. But the point is whoever goes first in this matchup will easily win, so Mega Heracross often can not afford to be slower than him.

And than there is the anomaly Aegislash. This creature has fucked up how we think about speed entirely. Because would be checks for him entirely depend on if you attack after he does because of his ability, which is really awkward. It's why checks in Aegislash' range often consider running negative speed to go after him! That's relatively unprecedented, barring Trick Room teams.
 
Aegislash is definitely interesting, although I've found it can be useful to be faster than some threats on his end. A good example would be Clefable. Sets not expecting Iron Head are easily dispatched if you are faster, but if you're slower you can get Moonlight stalled or even roasted by flamethrower. It's pretty much the only reason I'd consider speed on Aegislash though.
 
Scolipede should probably in the Elite speed tier because one speed boost on him will outspeed everyone in his current tier, considering speed boost is the most viable ability, and it is guaranteed one boost if it can stick around for a turn.
 
Vengeance417 said:
The accuracy and flinch chance in Iron Head makes it a decent option. I had a battle where it was down to my Scarfchomp vs a half health Terrakion and a Latios. I could have went for EQ, but then I'd lose to Latios. So I went with Iron Head. Killed the Terrakion, then I managed to flinch the Latios and clutch the win.

I know I won by flinch hax, and Iron Head itself isn't as strong as Stone Edge, but Stone Edge can miss (and it misses a lot for me :I ) and Iron Head has that chance of a flinch.
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You could have run Outrage and not have to rely on flinch hax, Iron Head is a pretty poor move on just about anything that doesn't get stab on it and even some that do.

Cube is the only thing I can think of where Iron Head can provide valuable coverage and even on him its not really the best choice.
 
Mitchhhhhh said:
You could have run Outrage and not have to rely on flinch hax, Iron Head is a pretty poor move on just about anything that doesn't get stab on it and even some that do.

Cube is the only thing I can think of where Iron Head can provide valuable coverage and even on him its not really the best choice.
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The only reason Cube is using iron head is because he has a poor movepool for his gigantic attack. If Cube got something like fire punch or fire blast he would have used that. Iron head is generally poor coverage and STAB is really the only reason to use it.
 
Snotjoch said:
The only reason Cube is using iron head is because he has a poor movepool for his gigantic attack. If Cube got something like fire punch or fire blast he would have used that. Iron head is generally poor coverage and STAB is really the only reason to use it.
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Of course that's the reason, although Iron Head would be used to get past Clefable/Sylveon, for which a fire move would do nothing the only reason for Cube to use a fire move would be to get past Scizor/Ferrothorn as it already beats other steel types with Earth Power or Fusion Bolt.
 
Mitchhhhhh said:
You could have run Outrage and not have to rely on flinch hax, Iron Head is a pretty poor move on just about anything that doesn't get stab on it and even some that do.

Cube is the only thing I can think of where Iron Head can provide valuable coverage and even on him its not really the best choice.
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I was running Dragon Claw at the time, and I didn't think it would have done enough damage to kill Terrakion at its health level.
 
Just a question, is there a constant difference between a + Speed Nature and a Neutral Speed Nature? For example an Adamant Mega Tyranitar has 241 Speed and a Jolly Mega Tyranitar has 265 Speed. Is the difference for all 25?
 
No, and maybe that's something I should mention. Each nature boosts one stat by 10% and drops another by 10%. In this case Mega Tyranitar increases 24 speed points with jolly, which is 10% of its final speed when not boosted, 241. +Spe natures help more on faster pokemon because the 10% gets you a lot more, and thus its very easy to get outsped by something many base speed points below if you arent using jolly/timid.
 
hey, thought I'd bump this with an updated list of Manectrifier 's

136: 0 Spe Mawile, 0 Spe Mawile-Mega, 0 Spe Chansey, 0 Spe Azumarill
156: 0 Spe Aegislash, 0 Spe Clefable, 0 Spe Sylveon, 0 Spe Empoleon
158: 0 Spe Tyranitar
164: 0 Spe Chesnaught
166: 0 Spe Scizor
176: 0 Spe Bisharp, 0 Spe Skarmory
177: 76 Spe Tyranitar
186: 0 Spe Scizor-Mega, 0 Spe Heracross-Mega
191: 4 Spe Heatran
192: 0 Spe Blastoise, 0 Spe Blastoise-Mega
196: 0 Spe Venusaur, 0 Spe Venusaur-Mega, 0 Spe Mandibuzz, 0 Spe Goodra, 0 Spe Togekiss
198: 0 Spe Gyarados
199: 252 Spe Azumarill, 252 Spe Mawile, 252 Spe Mawile-Mega
206: 0 Spe Heracross, 0 Spe Suicune
208: 0 Spe Rotom-W
209: 252 Spe Crawdaunt
212: 0 Spe Excadrill
218: 252+ Spe Azumarill, 252+ Spe Mawile, 252+ Spe Mawile-Mega
219: 44 Spe Rotom-W, 4 Spe Landorus-T, 252 Spe Aegislash, 252 Spe Magnezone
221: 252 Spe Tyranitar
226: 0 Spe Gliscor, 0 Spe Kyurem-Black
229: 252+ Spe Crawdaunt, 252 Spe Gothitelle
236: 0 Spe Zapdos, 0 Spe Tentacruel, 0 Spe Shaymin, 0 Spe Celebi
239: 252 Spe Bisharp, 252 Spe Breloom
240: 252+ Spe Aegislash, 252+ Spe Magnezone
241: 252 Spe Tyranitar-Mega
244: 72 Spe Gliscor
253: 252 Spe Heatran
255: 252 Spe Diggersby
259: 252 Spe Togekiss, 252 Spe Dragonite
261: 252 Spe Gyarados
262: 252+ Spe Bisharp
265: 252+ Spe T-Tar
271: 252 Spe Rotom-W
275: 252 Spe Excadrill
278: 252+ Spe Heatran
280: 252+ Spe Diggersby
281: 252 Spe Landorus-T
289: 252 Spe Kyurem-B
306: 252+ Spe Deo-D
----------------------------------
323: 252 Spe Scolipede
328: 252+ Spe Base 100
331: 252+ Spe Landorus-I
333: 252+ Spe Garchomp
339: 252+ Spe Pinsir-M
346: 252+ Spe Keldeo/Terrakion
350: 252+ Spe Lati@s, 252+ Spe Gengar
351: 252 Spe Talonflame
353: 252+ Spe Thundurus
355: 252+ Spe Scolipede
361: 252 Spe Tyranitar-M (1.5x)
377: 252+ Spe Greninja
-------Boost/Scarf-------
388: 252 Spe Dragonite (1.5x)
391: 252 Spe Gyarados-M (1.5x)
399: 252 Spe Alakazam-M
405: 252+ Spe Manectric-M
406: 252 Spe Rotom-W (scarf)
454: 252 Spe Garchomp (scarf)
499: 252+ Spe Garchomp (scarf)
504: 252+ Spe Deoxys-S

Thank you Manectrifier for the original list, it is a great framework that I work from constantly
 
What a great list, added it to the OP, thanks a million.
Another scarf mon that isn't on the list right now is Choice Scarf Kyurem-B. Pretty unexpected and plenty of speed to back up its immense power.
What other things are useful that aren't on these lists?
 
SirDizzyIII said:
How many Evs are required for (mega)Mawile to outrun 0 Spd Aegislash?
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Mega Mawile needs 0 EVs to outrun 0 Spe IVs + 0 Spe EVs + Brave Aegislash.
Mega Mawile needs 0 EVs to outrun 0 Spe IVs + 0 Spe EVs + Adamant Aegislash.
Mega Mawile needs 20 EVs to outrun 31 Spe IVs + 0 Spe EVs + Brave Aegislash.
Mega Mawile needs 84 EVs to outrun 31 Spe IVs + 0 Spe EVs + Adamant Aegislash.

Hope this helped! In the future, however, ask all questions of this nature (lol) in the Simple Questions + Simple Answers thread. Thanks!
 
Kind of a PSA, but whenever I max out two stats other than Speed, I always put the remaining 4 into Speed (unless you want lower Speed on stuff like Aegislash and Gyro Ball users) because it's the only place it ever really matters.
 
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