XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

[Chou Toshio]

Oh, also as a personal request to Haunter and the council, and I may be pointing out the obvious but... it's not expressly stated anywhere so--

If votes for 2 and 3 (together) get a super majority against 1, option 1 should be automatically ruled out.

Options 2 and 3 represent votes FOR action against BPass, so even if option 1 gets the most votes in total (2 and 3 see an even split), a super majority AGAINST baton pass (of some combination of 2 and 3) should throw out option 1.

thanks

 

[doughboy]

Oh, also as a personal request to Haunter and the council, and I may be pointing out the obvious but... it's not expressly stated anywhere so--

If votes for 2 and 3 (together) get a super majority against 1, option 1 should be automatically ruled out.

Options 2 and 3 represent votes FOR action against BPass, so even if option 1 gets the most votes in total (2 and 3 see an even split), it a super majority AGAINST baton pass (of some combination of 2 and 3) should throw out option 1.

thanks

On an educational note to all, this a common problem with the first past the post system! See here

Honestly option 2 is definitely the way to go. I don't want to rehash all the arguments for nerfing baton pass chains. Option 3 has the unintended(?) consequence of making Espeon unable to escape Pursuit if it decides to run Baton Pass alone with no boosting moves. It also stops quick passing with Scolipede.

 

[DTM]

Reiterating what Ninja Charizard said, Baton Pass teams I feel cannot simply be countered by a single Pokemon because they are just that: A team. You can't counter hyper-offense with a single Pokemon. No one Pokemon can counter an entire team. The real issue here is whether the Baton Pass strategy overwhelms entire teams of Pokemon. While Baton Pass is can definitely be countered, it is my belief that for the most part, full Baton Pass is overpowered to the point of exerting a negative influence on the metagame. I think Option 2 would be the best way to handle this as it restricts full Baton Pass chains while having only minimal collateral damage if at all.

 

[trc]

The options presented are the options to vote for. There will not be another option worth looking it so it should not be brought up in this thread. That being said, banning Stored Power + Baton Pass still allows a Pokemon to sweep with whatever coverage move it has, which is looking at being boosted by Calm Minds.

 

[Aquaslash]

Man, options 2 and 3 aren't really to my liking at all. I'd have preferred a ban on pass with speed boost AND magic bounce, not one or the other. Guess I have to qualify to vote #1 as it's the least offensive

 

[Karxrida]

Gonna have to go with option 2 here. Option 3 has more collateral damage, whereas option 2 only serves to nerf baton chain teams (and even then, they're still usable in the hands of a good player). I think I've mentioned it before in the last thread, but baton pass chains are indeed teams that are very hard to defeat without some dedicated niche counter, and even then, it often makes a team worse if it needs to include one. Baton pass chains also require relatively less skill to make and pilot than other OU teams, as the playstyle is very formulaic.

The only legitimate collateral from option 3 (as far as OU is concerned) is Scolipede, who is still viable outside of quickpassing.

Option 2 doesn't address the worst parts of Baton Pass: the free boosts to Speed and Magic Bounce making it impossible to stop the boosting. Limiting the number of BPers to 3 just means people now have room for 3 possible final recipients and/or axillary support for the chain.

 

[MikeDawg]

I know that I'm in the super-minority here (though I suspect from the poor arguments that the opinion proportions may be skewed by obligatory bandwagoning), but I don't think that baton pass as a whole is as incredibly broken and uncompetitive as people seem to think. Many make it seem like baton pass cannot be stopped without overpreparing, but I think otherwise, at least usually.

The main reason why I think that the required preparing is not OVER preparation is because the checks to bp can be fit easily into literally any teamstyle. Prankster taunt has been mentioned as a fantastic check (sure, you can predict and switch in espeon, but I can also predict and thunderbolt. In fact, first turn life orb thunderbolt itself has the potential to tear apart bp teams, taunt or otherwise), and thundurus happens to be one of the best offensive mons in the tier.

More balanced teams can (cleverly) utilize roar, as well as general hard-hitting special attackers which, first turn, can ko errting (especially if they have poison/steel coverage for sylveon. Think landorus)

Stall teams generally run haze quagsire who can indeed be played around, but the quag user can far more easily play around the baton pass user if we are to assume equal skill levels. Perish song also exists, and mr. mime is increasingly uncommon.

Now, I'm not arguing that these things counter/check baton pass, making it not broken. I am arguing that these checks/counters can all be fit onto almost every team easily if not accidentally, and so they are not "overpreparing"

Whether or not these checks are sufficient is up for debate (some are more than others).

On another note, here's a few points off the top of my head about how I feel about baton pass after running it for a few weeks:

• First turn landorus is a bitch. Sludge wave kills sylveon, and zapdos can do nothing back.
• Haze is rough :(
• First turn talonflame can be rather problematic. Some run taunt now. oops
• Mold breaker gyarados taunt >>>>
• bpass teams are real susceptible to hax. One turn without a sub = 100% chance of crit
• Exploud/Bug buzz/Infiltrator is reall reall annoying. nothing can really tank ploud
• TR is fun!

I think that overall, Bpass does need to be nerfed as it can successfully circumvent its common checks/counters, but I am not dead set on either side because of all that^

 

[Andrew]

I know that I'm in the super-minority here (though I suspect from the poor arguments that the opinion proportions may be skewed by obligatory bandwagoning), but I don't think that baton pass as a whole is as incredibly broken and uncompetitive as people seem to think. Many make it seem like baton pass cannot be stopped without overpreparing, but I think otherwise, at least usually.

The main reason why I think that the required preparing is not OVER preparation is because the checks to bp can be fit easily into literally any teamstyle. Prankster taunt has been mentioned as a fantastic check (sure, you can predict and switch in espeon, but I can also predict and thunderbolt. In fact, first turn life orb thunderbolt itself has the potential to tear apart bp teams, taunt or otherwise), and thundurus happens to be one of the best offensive mons in the tier.

More balanced teams can (cleverly) utilize roar, as well as general hard-hitting special attackers which, first turn, can ko errting (especially if they have poison/steel coverage for sylveon. Think landorus)

Stall teams generally run haze quagsire who can indeed be played around, but the quag user can far more easily play around the baton pass user if we are to assume equal skill levels. Perish song also exists, and mr. mime is increasingly uncommon.

Now, I'm not arguing that these things counter/check baton pass, making it not broken. I am arguing that these checks/counters can all be fit onto almost every team easily if not accidentally, and so they are not "overpreparing"

Whether or not these checks are sufficient is up for debate (some are more than others).

On another note, here's a few points off the top of my head about how I feel about baton pass after running it for a few weeks:

• First turn landorus is a bitch. Sludge wave kills sylveon, and zapdos can do nothing back.
• Haze is rough :(
• First turn talonflame can be rather problematic. Some run taunt now. oops
• Mold breaker gyarados taunt >>>>
• bpass teams are real susceptible to hax. One turn without a sub = 100% chance of crit
• Exploud/Bug buzz/Infiltrator is reall reall annoying. nothing can really tank ploud
• TR is fun!

I think that overall, Bpass does need to be nerfed as it can successfully circumvent its common checks/counters, but I am not dead set on either side because of all that^

I really respect ur opinion, your post is very nice. However, I would like to make a general comment on BP Counters, and will use Landorus-I as an example. I love using this guy, he's op as fuk, and usually gets something done. So, I make a team and realize I'm weak to BP, and coincidently Lando-I fits in just perfectly. Now, you have to consider what moveset is best for this guy on your team? I've recently been running Calm Mind / Focus Blast / Earth Power / Psychic, and it works wonders, although I also love having U-turn, Rocks, Sludge Wave (being useful for sylveon on BP), and Knock Off. That aside, here is the real problem:

1. Having Lando does not guarantee a win against any playstyle. Losing Lando-I in a regular match also does not guarantee a loss. In a regular match, if Lando fails to do his job I have 5 other team members to pick up the slack.

2. I chose Lando-I so I should have a chance against BP right? The problem is, if Lando fails to do his job against BP, I've lost the game, as I didn't pack multiple checks/counters to Baton Pass. The rest of my team become useless, which is not the case in a match against any other playstyle (unless a v bad matchup).

I think this is the main problem, that you pack a check, or two, to baton pass, and if you lose them or they fail to do their job which is v possible, then the game can be already decided from there, as the rest of your team members can't break past the defensive boosts. I believe this is different than packing multiple checks to a threatening pokemon such as Char X, M-Pinsir etc, bc they are just one pokemon and a BP Chain is a 6 mon super collective. If I take Char X down to half health while he dances, then he ko's, i can easily revenge with Scarf Chomp, Deo-S Psycho boost, whatever. If I take Sylveon down to half health as she calm minds, bc of her speed and defenses she can pass or keep boosting, then pass, so the playability of taking out a poke is severely limited.

With all this said, when I get reqs I think I'll be voting #2 option, as it is the only one that has really made cents to me from the beginning. peace

 

[Chou Toshio]

Look, this discussion is not about finding holes in Baton Pass-- BPass does not have to be invincible or even top-tier to be bad for the metagame. Of course the strategy has problems-- fuck, a smart player with Sableye would have to TRY to lose (priority Taunt f's the strategy so bad, and it's immune to Stored Power and HP Fighting). Sableye fucks Bpass over like no one's business, and if Mega Kang was still in the meta, Bpass teams would be screwed. Mold Breaker Roar Pangoro > Baton Pass teams. NONE OF THAT IS THE POINT!

BPass's winrate has very little to do with the problems with it.

The problem is: a win condition too different from others for it to be reasonable for ALL teams to properly prepare for it. (if it's allowed, that's what we're saying: that ALL teams should be prepared for it, or can prepare for it reasonably easily-- simply not true)


This is the equivalent of having unlimited Exodia pieces available in Yu-gi-oh-- sure, who knows how often the deck would actually win, but most decks (with anti-monster traps and defensive monsters) are going to be so inefficient against it, the strategy is bad for the game. If we were playing Pokemon as a best 2 of 3 with a "side deck" of 1-3 Pokemon, sure Bpass would be totally reasonable... but that's not the case (especially on the ladder), so fuck.

 

[WebBowser]

Hey folks, back after an evening of testing. I'm about to go to bed, but I wanted to say that after getting into the top 20 of the suspect ladder with a very consistent win rate (most of my losses were at the hands of bumping into MikeDawg 2 or 3 times :P), I am almost certain that quick pass scoli is absolutely borked. I'll elaborate more later, but here's a quick replay dump.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-123968261

"Oh hey, I have talonflame so I win, right?" Nope, despite having talonflame and me losing 3 mons to it, scolipede was still able to come in and setup multiple times, even 1v1ing a taunt megados.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124004135

I vaguely recall CB terrakion being the standard that all walls are measured against. Does that make scolipede the best phys wall in the game? As I just used it as total setup bait.

252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Rock Slide vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 156-186 (48.1 - 57.4%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO

Also, espeon tanking that crit and still coming back to sweep was pretty impressive.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124007727

Made so many mispredicts here it's not even funny. Still managed to pull off an espeon sweep thanks to my barely alive scolipede.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124014789

Yet another replay showing how friggen fast a quick pass can get out of hand, all due to a misplay at turn 1 (dude went for SR instead of swapping to his obligatory scolipede counter)

I am not a good player. Heck, outside of UU, I'm actually pretty bad most of the time, I usually struggle to break 1.7K elo on the OU ladder with my BO team. Scolipede is the only reason why I'm up this far, and every team I've played if they don't have an immediate answer to him, they're done, dead, gone. Simple as that. Anyway, I'll argue theory tomorrow, I'm pretty friggen tired atm.

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

The only legitimate collateral from option 3 (as far as OU is concerned) is Scolipede, who is still viable outside of quickpassing.

Option 2 doesn't address the worst parts of Baton Pass: the free boosts to Speed and Magic Bounce making it impossible to stop the boosting. Limiting the number of BPers to 3 just means people now have room for 3 possible final recipients and/or axillary support for the chain.

Not necessarily. Option 3 has 3 things as collateral, regular Espeon that baton passes to avoid pursuit, offensive/support Scolipede, and boosting Ninjask. Option 2, on the other hand, serves to do what is needed: a nerf to baton pass chains. This forces people who rely on baton chains to change up their teams, allowing for more creativity, uniqueness, and diversity, and the only thing that's nerfed are baton chains. Scolipede, Espeon, and Ninjask aren't harmed from option 2, and that's the way they should be, as those are not the parts that make baton chains hard to handle, it's the ENTIRE chain of 5-6 pokemon that can pass back and forth powerful.

 

[haunter]

Oh, also as a personal request to Haunter and the council, and I may be pointing out the obvious but... it's not expressly stated anywhere so--

If votes for 2 and 3 (together) get a super majority against 1, option 1 should be automatically ruled out.

Options 2 and 3 represent votes FOR action against BPass, so even if option 1 gets the most votes in total (2 and 3 see an even split), a super majority AGAINST baton pass (of some combination of 2 and 3) should throw out option 1.

thanks

Yeah, don't worry. We're going to consider the votes for options #2 and #3 as a single vote. If options #2 and #3 together achieve the required supermajority, we'll rule out option #1 and adopt the option that gets more preferences among #2 and #3.

 

[Galladium]

Just a quick question, but does the 3rd option mean that Baton Pass is not allowed on a team that has a Pokemon with either Magic Bounce or Speed Boost, or both? Good choice of options, by the way.

Another thing, I know this thread hasn't been up for very long, but has anyone had any success with making a team that is designed to counter Baton Pass, rather than emulate it? I know that there aren't that many counters to it, but it would be interesting to see how well these counters specifically work against it.

 

[Rhaegar]

Contrary to what I thought a couple of months ago, and what people still seem to think, Baton Pass does take skill. Yes, it is broken, and should be nerfed, but it's not free wins for noobs. If you think you're getting beat by someone who's far less skilled than you just because they run a BP chain, then you're probably not as skilled as you think. There's a reason Dennis is the only BP user at the top. He and maybe a couple of others are the only ones who pose a challenge to any of my semi-prepared teams. The other BP players are generally noobs with low meta-knowledge and once they move up the ladder with BP they just get hit back down by experienced players.

 

[Bedschibaer]

Actually the Exodia comparison is pretty legit though, i stopped playing ygo ages ago, but when you played a deck that wasn't specifically prepared against exodia players you were kinda fucked from the beginning on. You can only try bringing his life points down while he spends all of his turns drawing like 20 cards and when you get unlucky/when you don't get lucky you are pretty much fucked. Unless you prepare for it of course, but you can't know what your opponent is going to play before you fight. Yea in ygo you have a side deck and all that jazz, but in pokemon you don't. You do not know who you are going to get matched up on the ladder, and when you bring some specific baton pass counter and you do not end up fighting a baton pass player it's just a waste of a pokemon slot/move slot. Because let's be real here, the counters or checks to baton pass teams are in many cases not really useful outside of countering baton pass teams (i think there is no need to list things specifically again because that has been done to death already).

About the skill thing: saying baton pass players are unskilled is just plain wrong. There are complete scrubs playing bp on the ladder and there are competent players playing bp on the ladder just as much as there are scrubs and competent players playing deosharp or stall or any "easy to build" archetype of team. The players who topped the ladder with bp teams in fact do know what they are doing. The only thing is that bp is formulatic as fuck, the team basically plays itself and is hugely matchup depending. Netteaming was always a thing in competitive pokemon and you can't stop people from using other people's teams, which just leads to arguably bad players having arguably good success simply because they are using a great team they didn't build.
A quote from earlier in this thread "Also players like Denisss spent lots of hours working on the team to make it well." I don't know this player personally and i highly doubt the person who made this statement does, but let's be honest, the formulatic bp team(s) was/were there in gen 5 already, and probably earlier. i don't know who "invented" that team, if anyone even did, but exchanging ninjask for scoliopede isn't that big of a thing and i really doubt it takes even one hour for anyone who heard scoliopede got speed boost to slap it onto a baton pass team. Same for throwing a Sylveon on there.

 

[haunter]

Winning because of luck and/or opponent's ineptitude is possible against any team archetype, Baton Pass included, but it's not really relevant in this thread.

 

[DracoNinja]

Another thing, I know this thread hasn't been up for very long, but has anyone had any success with making a team that is designed to counter Baton Pass, rather than emulate it? I know that there aren't that many counters to it, but it would be interesting to see how well these counters specifically work against it.

Sticky Web and DD Mega Gyarados+Taunt work really well against bp teams, the former slows down the opponent every turn they switch in another pokemon and pass the speed drop, the latter means even Espeon can't stop Taunt from shutting it down. Players have been adapting to Taunt Mega Gyarados though, more players are starting to run Dazzling Gleam just to hit it and not being completely stopped.

About Baton Pass itself, I find it really overcentralising the tier, even more so when players are literally slapping Haze on everything that can learn it, and I'm talking about pokemon with better moves but are shoved aside for Haze simply for bp, and such pokemon are Greninja and Gengar. While I am not saying Haze is a bad move or the only solution to bp, but really if you are going to have to sacrifice a moveslot just for a playstyle, you know its unhealthy for the metagame. Secondly bp as said by above user it is incredibly team match-up reliant, you either have a answer to it or you don't. This limits the teambuilding aspect itself if you want to prepare not to be swept by a bp team. I understand that well-built teams usually have a good answer to it such as CB Talonflame or the above-mentioned Taunt Mega Gyarados, but counters to bp teams are few.

TL;DR if you are going to have to resort to using terrible movesets just to "beat" bp, it probably should be banned. And even having haze isn't a guarenteed win for the haze user, the bp user could still remake the chain if all of the members are still healthy.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Sticky Web and DD Mega Gyarados+Taunt work really well against bp teams, the former slows down the opponent every turn they switch in another pokemon and pass the speed drop, the latter means even Espeon can't stop Taunt from shutting it down. Players have been adapting to Taunt Mega Gyarados though, more players are starting to run Dazzling Gleam just to hit it and not being completely stopped.

About Baton Pass itself, I find it really overcentralising the tier, even more so when players are literally slapping Haze on everything that can learn it, and I'm talking about pokemon with better moves but are shoved aside for Haze simply for bp, and such pokemon are Greninja and Gengar. While I am not saying Haze is a bad move or the only solution to bp, but really if you are going to have to sacrifice a moveslot just for a playstyle, you know its unhealthy for the metagame. Secondly bp as said by above user it is incredibly team match-up reliant, you either have a answer to it or you don't. This limits the teambuilding aspect itself if you want to prepare not to be swept by a bp team. I understand that well-built teams usually have a good answer to it such as CB Talonflame or the above-mentioned Taunt Mega Gyarados, but counters to bp teams are few.

TL;DR if you are going to have to resort to using terrible movesets just to "beat" bp, it probably should be banned. And even having haze isn't a guarenteed win for the haze user, the bp user could still remake the chain if all of the members are still healthy.

That's debatable, I see people sacrificing not only moveslots, but entire team slots, just to deal with stall. Stallbreaker Gengar, for example, exists just because it deals with stall very well, otherwise it wouldn't be used. Things like Taunt are added to moveslosts just to deal with stall too. If the metagame is getting dominated by a playstyle, it's only natural for people to prepare against it. Specially if they are using pokemon that are not exactly bad, such as Greninja and Gengar.

Every playstyle centralizes the meta. We can't remove a playstyle just because it forces some adapting from players. If Baton pass is beatable, then people who are playing to win should have to adapt to it.

The question is how much centralizing is too much, and how much are you losing against other playstyles just to adapt to BP. In my personal opinion, not much.

 

[RotomPoison]

That's debatable, I see people sacrificing not only moveslots, but entire team slots, just to deal with stall. Stallbreaker Gengar, for example, exists just because it deals with stall very well, otherwise it wouldn't be used. Things like Taunt are added to moveslosts just to deal with stall too. If the metagame is getting dominated by a playstyle, it's only natural for people to prepare against it. Specially if they are using pokemon that are not exactly bad, such as Greninja and Gengar.

Every playstyle centralizes the meta. We can't remove a playstyle just because it forces some adapting from players. If Baton pass is beatable, then people who are playing to win should have to adapt to it.

The question is how much centralizing is too much, and how much are you losing against other playstyles just to adapt to BP. In my personal opinion, not much.

What? If something such as Baton Pass is forcing you to run obscure counters then it's overcentralizing. Haze Greninja and Gengar is a wasted moveslot otherwise, and if my Greninja has to run Haze over Taunt just because there's an Espeon BPing everywhere then this is a problem. Considering most BP teams lead with Scolipede they will have enough Speed in Espeon to outspeed Greninja and then that's it unless you run a bad move like Haze.

Baton Pass in itself is not broken, the abusers combined are, which is why, unfortunately, we need a complex ban. Regardless of what I said before, I'm considering banning Baton Pass on what is essentially Scolipede and Espeon, even if that would remove the viable option of escaping Pursuit.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

What? If something such as Baton Pass is forcing you to run obscure counters then it's overcentralizing. Haze Greninja and Gengar is a wasted moveslot otherwise, and if my Greninja has to run Haze over Taunt just because there's an Espeon BPing everywhere then this is a problem. Considering most BP teams lead with Scolipede they will have enough Speed in Espeon to outspeed Greninja and then that's it unless you run a bad move like Haze.

Baton Pass in itself is not broken, the abusers combined are, which is why, unfortunately, we need a complex ban. Regardless of what I said before, I'm considering banning Baton Pass on what is essentially Scolipede and Espeon, even if that would remove the viable option of escaping Pursuit.

What about stallbreaker Gengar, with Shadow Ball + 3 support moves? Everybody knows it struggles against offensive teams, but people still use it to be able to beat stall. Should we nerf stall?

 

[RotomPoison]

What about stallbreaker Gengar, with Shadow Ball + 3 support moves? Everybody knows it struggles against offensive teams, but people still use it to be able to beat stall. Should we nerf stall?

Of course not, but there has to be a line drawn at some point, which obviously goes past Baton Pass. The idea is using bad or otherwise completely unusable sets just to counter something like Baton Pass is why it needs a nerf. Stallbreaker Gengar is at least somewhat effective against offense (not much, but more than Haze)

 

[Dark G]

About time this suspect has come into fruition as baton pass has been inherently broken since BW. When I (hopefully) make requirements, I will be supporting option #2.Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team (complex ban).
That seems like the simplest way in nerfing this extremely broken playstyle. By limiting the amount of baton passers to three, it would ensure the unviability of baton pass teams that were unhealthy for the metagame. The most disgusting thing about XY baton pass though, is that it's literally the same exact fuckin team (Espeon, Scolipede, Smeargle, Sylveon, Zapdos, Vaporeon in most cases) every time that you won't be able to anything about if team matchup is even slightly in favour of your opponent.

Ooooohh, I can't wait to support nerfing and ultimately killing this shit :]

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Of course not, but there has to be a line drawn at some point, which obviously goes past Baton Pass. The idea is using bad or otherwise completely unusable sets just to counter something like Baton Pass is why it needs a nerf. Stallbreaker Gengar is at least somewhat effective against offense (not much, but more than Haze)

I hardly think you need Haze to beat BP, though. I've won many matches against bp teams and I've never used Haze before. Stallbreaker Gengar itself is also pretty good against bp, due to being able to beat Espeon and use Taunt on everything else.

The problem is that you're trying to have a single move that 6-0s against the entire bp team with zero difficulty. That's a wrong proposition from the start. Baton Pass is not a pokemon, it's a team, you can't beat it with just a single move.

Instead, having multiple pokemon who do well against BP, such as Talonflame, Landorus and Thundurus, can put the team into enough pressure that its defensive checks won't be able to hold on. That's how you beat bp. Trying to win the match on turn 1 with a single magical move won't work.

The problem I'm seeing is that most people here don't want to play against bp at all. You all want to one perfect move that vaccines your team against it so you'll never have waste time playing against it. And if such a vaccine doesn't exist, you nerf it. Baton pass needs to be treated as any other playstyle, in which you have to think, use multiple pokemon, and make predictions to win.

 

[RotomPoison]

I hardly think you need Haze to beat BP, though. I've won many matches against bp teams and I've never used Haze before. Stallbreaker Gengar itself is also pretty good against bp, due to being able to beat Espeon and use Taunt on everything else.

The problem is that you're trying to have a single move that 6-0s against the entire bp team with zero difficulty. That's a wrong proposition from the start. Baton Pass is not a pokemon, it's a team, you can't beat it with just a single move.

Instead, having multiple pokemon who do well against BP, such as Talonflame, Landorus and Thundurus, can put the team into enough pressure that its defensive checks won't be able to hold on. That's how you beat bp. Trying to win the match on turn 1 doesn't work with a single magical move won't work.

But does that really work? If your opponent sees a Talonflame as a possible lead they wouldn't lead with Scolipede. Nothing 100% beats Baton Pass, because Vaporeon can wall Talonflame, Zapdos can wall Landorus and Thundurus.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

But does that really work? If your opponent sees a Talonflame as a possible lead they wouldn't lead with Scolipede. Nothing 100% beats Baton Pass, because Vaporeon can wall Talonflame, Zapdos can wall Landorus and Thundurus.

Nothing 100% beats Hyper Offense.

Ban Hyper Offense.