XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

[Baharoth]

I think a major problem with BP is that its kinda broken for stall as they need stuff like Haze to beat it while balance and especially offensive teams dont need to prepare at all in order to beat it. Offensive pressure is not a 100% way to beat it, there is no such thing, but it does somewhat reliably.

This 100% thing is the next problem while we are at it..

The problem is that you're trying to have a single move that 6-0s against the entire bp team with zero difficulty. That's a wrong proposition from the start. Baton Pass is not a pokemon, it's a team, you can't beat it with just a single move.

But does that really work? If your opponent sees a Talonflame as a possible lead they wouldn't lead with Scolipede. Nothing 100% beats Baton Pass, because Vaporeon can wall Talonflame, Zapdos can wall Landorus and Thundurus.

"No matter what pokemon I use cant beat "insert any playstyle here" 100% of the time, it needs to be nerfed"

 

[RotomPoison]

Nothing beats 100% Hyper Offense.

Ban Hyper Offense.

By that logic nothing 100% beats anything, which means everything is broken, which is just not true. Baton Pass is different because unlike HO, everything can be a win condition, everything can switch in for free, or at least with less prediction thanks to switching being a higher priority. HO has no hope of doing all of that while maintaining a constant win condition and countering threats such as Landorus at the same time

 

[Ninja Charizard]

By that logic nothing 100% beats anything, which means everything is broken, which is just not true. Baton Pass is different because unlike HO, everything can be a win condition, everything can switch in for free, or at least with less prediction thanks to switching being a higher priority. HO has no hope of doing all of that while maintaining a constant win condition and countering threats such as Landorus at the same time

BP has one weak point. The amount of turns it needs to boost, while also using these turns to make switches into moves that it needs to wall.

Make one wrong prediction, and you're toast. If your opponent uses one Swords Dance or Nasty Plot, you now need to make a switch, survive the next move, then boost enough to wall, or use roar. It's not an easy job. The first 5-10 turns of a BP match are the most critical. You need to know every move the opponent can use against you, include all the taunts and roars that may force you into Espeon sooner than you wanted.

Of course, after the necessary boosts are grabbed, it's GG. That's the nature of Baton Pass matches, they are short. But that's besides the point, just like they can win soon, they can lose soon if one key mon such as Scolipede goes down. They have a strong win condition, but also a strong loss condition.

Now drop this 100% argument. It's bad and it prevents the discussion from moving foward. We should be discussing how hard it is to win against BP, not how hard it is to click into a perfect anti-bp move which wins the match on the first turn.

 

[Galladium]

Now drop this 100% argument. It's bad and it prevents the discussion from moving foward. We should be discussing how hard it is to win against BP, not how hard it is to click into a perfect anti-bp move which wins the match on the first turn.

Discussing how hard it is to win against Baton Pass was what the first thread was for. This one is for arguing for and against options 1, 2, and 3.

 

[Mavee Thunderboldt]

Baton Pass is broken. Actually it's in my top ten list most BROKEN pokemon moves

10. Wish/Softboiled
9. V-Create
8. Protect/Substitute
7. Taunt
6. Stealth Rock
5. Volt Switch/U-turn
4. Shell Smash
3. Baton Pass <---- that right there, ladies and gents. Baton pass is so far, one of the broken moves we see day-to-day
2. Spore/Dark Void
1. Rock Slide/Air Slash/Headbutt aided with Paralysis and Serene Grace

Be it a mixed attacker(smeargle shell smash), physical (scolipede sword's dance), or special attacker(Masquerain quiver dance/TailGlow ThunderWave Volbeat) Baton Pass is a deal you can't deny. There are a lot of gimmicks with it, it's for you to explore and exploit. Baton Pass chaining HOWEVER, is hard to pull off. But with the right prediction, you might bring an underpowered pokemon STRAIGHT to ubers.

"But Mavee... What about the Prankster/Speed Taunters?" Nope. A good Baton Pass Chainer can render your taunt USELESS, and use an offensive move to damage your prankster/speed-taunt to oblivion, or switch to an ally if no offensive move is available. This could be either a good move, or bad move. Seing your opponent switch could have you room for setup. The viable Prankster/Speed TAUNT is very predictable. And absolutely 99.9% of the trainers that read this, don't run a team with ALL pokemon equipped with taunt just to counter the BP chains. We run only ONE, or... Nothing at ALL.

"But Mavee, what about PHAZING?" Now, this is an effective strategy... If done early, and at the right time, this could render your opponent switching strategies to kill your phazer down. Beware, though, PHAZING is a large gamble on your part when the enemy had switched the trigger for the maun sweeper.

"Mavee, what about UNAWARE?" Could be a good solution too(Train your Quagsires everyone) with the meta focused on Sword's Dancing, Dragon Dancing and Priority, and bringing a Pokemon with Unaware is a good investment. HOWEVER, an UNAWARE pokemon can be worn down with various status problems our Baton Pass chainers are capable of doing. Not mentioning a wide array of pokemon capable of learning baton pass the pokedex has to offer.

"Mavee... Let's bring KIRBY I mean... Erhmm... DITTO and wreck the house DOWN!" Okay, Ditto is an answer to overpowered sweepers. Not only you can have the possibility of having two Mega evolutions in a team, but you can counter the main sweeper in a BP Chain. Not only you can tie in speed, but also the chance of using your opponent's pokemon as your own. Now let's grind the BP Chains, shall we?

Pros:
+ Very benificial if done correctly and successfully
+ Can upgrade mega evolutions to "UBER evolutions" if ya know what I am saying
+ Damage from opposing pokemon can be distributed evenly from chainer-to-chainer
+ Can be played with mind games
+ Sweepers will just worry about getting their STABs and Coverage. No setup moves needed for em, in a BP Chain team.
+ Very hard to stop if opponent relies on sheer sweeping power

Cons:
- Mostly, must be executed early on. It's more of a high risk-high reward
- The Chain is like this. Imagine you are building a house. If your opponent answers the backbone of your Chain, you have to start all over again, like a house with it's foundation removed
- Very hard to execute
- Opponent has a space to set up
- Chaining baton pass success rate is inversely proportional to the number of pokemon on your team. The more pokemon fallen, the less options you have later on
- Entry Hazards can be a nuisance
- Predictable as the game progresses. Using the same pokemon as the chain progresses can be used as a tool against you
- By chaining, we mean having two or more pokemon in the team able to baton pass. Opponent shuts them down, you lose the pokemon too
- Hard to alternate strategies, mostly, straightforward Baton Spaming
- If the opponent nails your carrier sweeper down... Mostly GG(Sweeper can be owned with Priority and Sash. Can also be SPORED to be shut down if vulnerable)

Overall, BP can be stopped, unlike the sash-spore(Breloom, I'm looking at you. Only taunt can stop you xD). But we should be prepared for it. Be wary of the chains. If this continues on-and-on, there will come a time where baton pass could be limited or be BANNED. If it would be limited, i suggest of cutting it down to ONE. Not only it is viable to use, it won't be that much abusable as it was. I don't know why baton pass, a move existing so long, would still be bugging us today. Truly, BP chaining is BROKEN, but doesn't mean it cannot be stopped.

 

[Rhaegar]

I hardly think you need Haze to beat BP, though. I've won many matches against bp teams and I've never used Haze before. Stallbreaker Gengar itself is also pretty good against bp, due to being able to beat Espeon and use Taunt on everything else.

The problem is that you're trying to have a single move that 6-0s against the entire bp team with zero difficulty. That's a wrong proposition from the start. Baton Pass is not a pokemon, it's a team, you can't beat it with just a single move.

Instead, having multiple pokemon who do well against BP, such as Talonflame, Landorus and Thundurus, can put the team into enough pressure that its defensive checks won't be able to hold on. That's how you beat bp. Trying to win the match on turn 1 with a single magical move won't work.

The problem I'm seeing is that most people here don't want to play against bp at all. You all want to one perfect move that vaccines your team against it so you'll never have waste time playing against it. And if such a vaccine doesn't exist, you nerf it. Baton pass needs to be treated as any other playstyle, in which you have to think, use multiple pokemon, and make predictions to win.

+1. Although good BP players hold their own even against multiple Pokemon that do well against BP unlike stall which can hardly even touch the lone Gengar. Dennis is so well versed with every single possible threat to his team and manages to beat most players who carry the counters for it. Sure, he may be skilled but having any one team (not one playstyle, one team) that can stand a good chance against nearly all of it's counters when it's format is public knowledge is pretty broken.

 

[Seiterman]

Baton Pass is broken. Actually it's in my top ten list most BROKEN pokemon moves

10. Wish/Softboiled

I can't even be bothered with the rest of the post, when only two lines in you say something like that.

Moving on, then.

Looking at the three options presented in the OP, it seems clear that option 1 isn't the answer. So, the issue is whether it's best to limit the number of passers or limit who can pass. (Side note, is there a chance of option 1 winning in votes simply by having more than either 2 or 3, even if combined 2 and 3 have more votes? It seems unlikely regardless but it's something to keep in mind.)

The main issue with limiting who can pass is that it kills speed boosting, which is only broken on Scolipede and even then arguably only when supplemented by Espeon and friends. It also keeps Espeon from using BP to escape Pursuit, but that's a really minor nitpick. Meanwhile, limiting the number to 3 passers still means mini BP teams could be a potential threat, utilizing Scolipede, Espeon and one more passer (plus a selection of recipients or niche checks/counters.) Those teams would still likely be a lot more manageable, though.

My opinion mostly comes down to whether or not limiting the BP users to 3 solves the problem adequately. If so, it's a superior option due to not limiting any non-broken Pokemon. If not, though, then the other complex ban is necessary. Maybe some play on the suspect ladder will make it clear.

 

[TerraTF]

I'm gonna voice my opinion for Option number 2. Instituting a new clause seems to be the best option at this time.

At this point, Baton Pass is like Evasion boost. A select few utilizing a broken strategy just to cause as many ragequits as possible. Like has been said before, if you aren't prepared for Baton Pass you loose at the Team Preview.

However I still fell that 3 Baton Pass users is enough to institute the basic BP Core of Espeon/Scolipede/Smeargle. I feel that bumping the maximum number down to 2 would even still be generous leaving most BP team with Espeon and Scolipede. If the maximum number were to be lowered I would put all of my support into running just a single Pokemon with Baton Pass on a team.

Having a single Pokemon with Baton Pass on a team basically requires a BP user to decide if they want to use either Scolipede or Espeon just for quickpassing. If only quickpassing was allowed, BP teams would likely still run both Scolipede and Espeon but they would always lead with Scolipede then passing to an Espeon after 6 full turns where Espeon would use Calm Mind until Stored Power has a total of 24 buffs behind it. This strategy would be countered much easier than if there were what is basically a maximum of a half chain.

 

[Celticpride]

I would like to point out that Baton Pass teams can be adapted to be much more offensive. I remember seeing a replay of a team with Zapdos and Focus Energy Scizor (Focus Energy gets passed with BP) that showcased this potential. Scizor, Mawile, Absol (Mega can be used as a second Magic Bouncer), Mienshao, and Medicham can all learn BP, and all of them can hold their own if they get Taunted. Mega Mawile or Medicham at +4/6 Defense, Speed, and Special Defense is very scary. And if they run into a threat, they can BP to one of the five remaining team members from the normal team. Scolipede can also run SD on it's set to juice up any of those guys.

 

[the-bumper-car]

My opinion mostly comes down to whether or not limiting the BP users to 3 solves the problem adequately. If so, it's a superior option due to not limiting any non-broken Pokemon. If not, though, then the other complex ban is necessary. Maybe some play on the suspect ladder will make it clear.

After much discussion in the previous BP thread, my opinion is that yes, limiting BP users to 3 max on a team is an adequate fix. This forces them to choose who they'll run in addition to the "core" of Espeon and Scolipede - do they add Sylveon for the Fairy typing + Pixilate Hyper Voice, Vaporeon as the back-up defense booster, or Smeargle for the Spore + Ingrain + utility? It also means they can't even consider running BP Zapdos anymore.

This opens up a lot more opportunities for HO, Balance, and Stall teams to counter BP without bending over backwards to fit in the counters. BP will be forced to actually switch more often, losing their boosts, and once a chain has been broken BP will have a hard time restarting it. It becomes a high risk, high reward strategy, which seems more appropriate for such a match-up dependent archetype.

 

[Baharoth]

+1. Although good BP players hold their own even against multiple Pokemon that do well against BP unlike stall which can hardly even touch the lone Gengar. Dennis is so well versed with every single possible threat to his team and manages to beat most players who carry the counters for it. Sure, he may be skilled but having any one team (not one playstyle, one team) that can stand a good chance against nearly all of it's counters when it's format is public knowledge is pretty broken.

Well obviously it isnt so much the team but the player. As you said, the team is public knowledge and despite that Denisss is the only player to have that much success with it. If it was that easy to succeed with BP the top 100 would be full of BP teams but thats not the case, not at all.

 

[Raiza]

Actually i'm laddering for the suspect and i'm almost done, I've used baton pass teams in some games, and I almost won them all because my opponents weren't prepared against it, fortunately when I used hyper offensive teams or balanced ones I didn't got matched up against Baton Pass and got surprised of that.
First of all I think Baton Pass should be banned because it only makes the metagame worse, with the new pokémons and abilities introduced in the 6th Gen( ex: sylveon, a really solid fairy type special booster and Speed Boost Scolipede, a better alternative to Ninjask ) baton pass teams need less skill to be played( pay attention: i'm not saying that Baton pass based teams don't need skill to be played, because you have to get a pre-game plan and you have to predict well the opponent's moves when you don't have so many boosts on your side, but they need less skill than a normal team )
So if I get the reqs on the ladder I think i'm gonna vote the second option which is:

2. Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team (complex ban);

The second option disables Full Baton Pass teams because it can't be build decently without at least 4 baton pass users with boost moves, permitting the use of baton pass for other strategies.
In my opinion the third option doesnt disable the baton pass teams, I mean, if you need magic bounce for roar you got mr.mime and for whirlwind you got ingrain for all of them, yes the lack of speed boost is huge too but you got pokémons like Gliscor that with boosts already on can put one agility without problems

 

[Ranger Mike]

Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team (complex ban);

Unless we hate scolipede and espeon that much then we should not ban magic bounce/ speed boost with baton pass because it is after a few baton passes that the playstyle goes out of hand. Also have been laddering for suspect almost done I have been using heart swap manaphy which is just hilarious.

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

Forbid the use of the move Baton Pass on more than 3 Pokémon on the same team (complex ban);

Unless we hate scolipede and espeon that much then we should not ban magic bounce/ speed boost with baton pass because it is after a few baton passes that the playstyle goes out of hand. Also have been laddering for suspect almost done I have been using heart swap manaphy which is just hilarious.

One of the only reasons Baton Pass is such a threat is because we can't Taunt Magic Bounce Espeon, and Speed Boost basically makes it impossible to outspeed and revenge kill, even with Scarfers. Heart Swap is reversed by Magic Bounce. You can't touch most BP teams with status moves if they pack a magic bouncer, and chances are, after speed boost, they can Baton Pass into Espeon really quickly.

 

[WebBowser]

BP has one weak point. The amount of turns it needs to boost, while also using these turns to make switches into moves that it needs to wall.

You think BP needs a lot of turns? Please see the following replay:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124014789

His only misplay is that he led wrong, and it caused him to lose the friggen game. I seriously think that scoli fits the support characteristic quite nicely.

The Shellder Smuggler Heart swap is not affected by magic bounce, as it effects both mons. It's like Haze.

@ folks who think limiting the number of BPers will fix anything: The fact that scolipede can setup +2 defense on darn near any physical mon in the game, let alone OU, is what allows BP to be broken. Scolipede can easily provide any mon the ability to be unrevengable with the combination of defense and speed, due to the lack of special priority (vacuum wave does not count). Given even one turn of setup (and trust me, Scolipede WILL find an opportunity to setup, I was not joking when I said he can setup in front of any physical mon in the game), I have had scolipede give any mon on my otherwise horrid HO team the ability to swap in, setup, and then tank SE priority moves like a bawz while sweeping the enemy team clean. This is bad.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I think most everyone here will agree option 2 is the best option to go with. Clearly, BP chains are a problem which kind of kicks Option 1 out of the way. (If you deny that, you're biased, or ignorant to the way the game should be played in competitive settings) Option 3 the only way I can see that going over well is if Espeon gets that end of the nerf, or. if you do a ban like "Baton Pass + Magic Bounce" AND "BP + Speed Boost". The problem with that is, it makes things Like Ninjask and Combusken irrelevant again (Combusken less so), and why nerf things that don't need to be nerfed? Limiting the amount of 'mons carrying BP to 3 forces the BP user to drop a detrimental 'mon thus giving a weakness some where. Want Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon? That's fine, but you now have a huge problem to talonflame, no more going into Vaporeon to sponge hits and BP back to continue the set up. People come here acting like it's one Poke that is the problem. . . That's not the case, it's a team of six Pokemon working as one.
Nine times out of ten, you take out one of those six, and they have a huge gaping hole in their "strategy" allowing for you to work a way around it.

 

[jbtc10]

You think BP needs a lot of turns? Please see the following replay:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124014789

His only misplay is that he led wrong, and it caused him to lose the friggen game. I seriously think that scoli fits the support characteristic quite nicely.

The Shellder Smuggler Heart swap is not affected by magic bounce, as it effects both mons. It's like Haze.

@ folks who think limiting the number of BPers will fix anything: The fact that scolipede can setup +2 defense on darn near any physical mon in the game, let alone OU, is what allows BP to be broken. Scolipede can easily provide any mon the ability to be unrevengable with the combination of defense and speed, due to the lack of special priority (vacuum wave does not count). Given even one turn of setup (and trust me, Scolipede WILL find an opportunity to setup, I was not joking when I said he can setup in front of any physical mon in the game), I have had scolipede give any mon on my otherwise horrid HO team the ability to swap in, setup, and then tank SE priority moves like a bawz while sweeping the enemy team clean. This is bad.

You've already shown that replay btw. He didn't have a steel move on Aegislash and he didn't have T-Wave on Thundurus, which was kinda silly on his behalf. He also led Mawile for some weird reason. Any fast attacker, regardless of how the boosts were obtained, whether it be SmashPass, QuiverPass, GeoPass etc, would have swept that guy. His team can't really handle anything at +2/+2.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I think most everyone here will agree option 2 is the best option to go with. Clearly, BP chains are a problem which kind of kicks Option 1 out of the way. (If you deny that, you're biased, or ignorant to the way the game should be played in competitive settings) Option 3 the only way I can see that going over well is if Espeon gets that end of the nerf, or. if you do a ban like "Baton Pass + Magic Bounce" AND "BP + Speed Boost". The problem with that is, it makes things Like Ninjask and Combusken irrelevant again (Combusken less so), and why nerf things that don't need to be nerfed? Limiting the amount of 'mons carrying BP to 3 forces the BP user to drop a detrimental 'mon thus giving a weakness some where. Want Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon? That's fine, but you now have a huge problem to talonflame, no more going into Vaporeon to sponge hits and BP back to continue the set up. People come here acting like it's one Poke that is the problem. . . That's not the case, it's a team of six Pokemon working as one.
Nine times out of ten, you take out one of those six, and they have a huge gaping hole in their "strategy" allowing for you to work a way around it.

I don't see why the condescending tone when referring to BP teams. I haven't used them personally but I don't consider them "broken" or "n00b strats". It's just a well thought team archetype just like Obi's stall team became super popular back in pre-Pt Gen 4. The problem I see is, as mentioned before, people try to address this as the move itself was the problem. The problem is a whole team working together to achieve a Magic Bouncer (read: unphazable) poke to get like 16 combined boosts. It's not different than trying to support an endgame sweeper, this case you just happen to have 5 good support pokes with 3-4 of them being tanky. I'm close to get the reqs, I've beaten some BP teams by just boosting along and/or using hazards with something that can hit Espeon pretty hard so it puts them into a 50/50 all the time. People complain about the "lack of prediction" BP teams need when they got the speed advantage. I say it's no different when playing against stall. You have a phys attacker obviously Blissey is gonna switch to Skarm or Hippo. It wasn't until the use of wallbreakers or mixed attackers that would make stall to be in these 50/50 situations that takes away the initiative from them. Same thing about using a powerful phazer (something that has dark/ghost/steel move plus maybe a boosting move) or a Taunt user who hits Espeon for SE dmg would put BP teams into a 50/50.

 

[Inglorion]

I think most everyone here will agree option 2 is the best option to go with. Clearly, BP chains are a problem which kind of kicks Option 1 out of the way. (If you deny that, you're biased, or ignorant to the way the game should be played in competitive settings) Option 3 the only way I can see that going over well is if Espeon gets that end of the nerf, or. if you do a ban like "Baton Pass + Magic Bounce" AND "BP + Speed Boost". The problem with that is, it makes things Like Ninjask and Combusken irrelevant again (Combusken less so), and why nerf things that don't need to be nerfed? Limiting the amount of 'mons carrying BP to 3 forces the BP user to drop a detrimental 'mon thus giving a weakness some where. Want Scolipede, Espeon, and Sylveon? That's fine, but you now have a huge problem to talonflame, no more going into Vaporeon to sponge hits and BP back to continue the set up. People come here acting like it's one Poke that is the problem. . . That's not the case, it's a team of six Pokemon working as one.
Nine times out of ten, you take out one of those six, and they have a huge gaping hole in their "strategy" allowing for you to work a way around it.

No offense, but please dont assume that everyone planning on voting n Option #1 is ignorant or biased. Unlike 90% of posters in this thread foaming at the mouth for a ban, some of us wish to keep the integrity of game mechanics intact, and this ban is really pushing things over the edge. You guys won me over with the Swagplay debate but this is getting absurd IMO. And my distaste for this particular suspect test is only compounded by the fact that no one has batted so much as an eyelash over Deo-D still to this day.

This gen seems to see the Council favoring banning "unfair", "cheap" whole strategies as opposed to singular pokemon that highly disrupt OU's general power level (i.e. Deo-D, possibly Deo-S, Bisharp, and Aegislash).

 

[Andrew]

i think several ppl are for an impending Deo-D suspect....so...
LGI 2700 COIL I'm at 1947 yo vote #2 if ur real

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I don't see why the condescending tone when referring to BP teams. I haven't used them personally but I don't consider them "broken" or "n00b strats". It's just a well thought team archetype just like Obi's stall team became super popular back in pre-Pt Gen 4. The problem I see is, as mentioned before, people try to address this as the move itself was the problem. The problem is a whole team working together to achieve a Magic Bouncer (read: unphazable) poke to get like 16 combined boosts. It's not different than trying to support an endgame sweeper, this case you just happen to have 5 good support pokes with 3-4 of them being tanky. I'm close to get the reqs, I've beaten some BP teams by just boosting along and/or using hazards with something that can hit Espeon pretty hard so it puts them into a 50/50 all the time. People complain about the "lack of prediction" BP teams need when they got the speed advantage. I say it's no different when playing against stall. You have a phys attacker obviously Blissey is gonna switch to Skarm or Hippo. It wasn't until the use of wallbreakers or mixed attackers that would make stall to be in these 50/50 situations that takes away the initiative from them. Same thing about using a powerful phazer (something that has dark/ghost/steel move plus maybe a boosting move) or a Taunt user who hits Espeon for SE dmg would put BP teams into a 50/50.

The reason I tend to put the quotes around strategy is because I don't exactly consider clicking (insert boosting move) a strategy. It's like saying clicking toxic until something scares you out is a strategy. Don't get me wrong, I've beaten BP teams as well, Talonflame is a god send when coupled with Lando, but just because I can win a few games doesn't make it "un-banworthy". In the right hands, it can be a battle forcing you into the corner and there's nothing you can do about it. There's a reason dEnIsSsS is #1 and has continued to be. He is there ONLY because of his BP team (not implying he's skill-less that's the only team he's used to get there). The difference between stall and BP is quite obvious, Stall isn't one Big Pokemon "Running train" on a team of six.

No offense, but please dont assume that everyone planning on voting n Option #1 is ignorant or biased. Unlike 90% of posters in this thread foaming at the mouth for a ban, some of us wish to keep the integrity of game mechanics intact, and this ban is really pushing things over the edge. You guys won me over with the Swagplay debate but this is getting absurd IMO. And my distaste for this particular suspect test is only compounded by the fact that no one has batted so much as an eyelash over Deo-D still to this day.

This gen seems to see the Council favoring banning "unfair", "cheap" whole strategies as opposed to singular pokemon that highly disrupt OU's general power level (i.e. Deo-D, possibly Deo-S, Bisharp, and Aegislash).

I wasn't saying ignorant in general, I stated so actually. If you disagree with nerfing BP in some way, then you're one of two things, ignorant to what a competitive metagame should look like or biased. If some game mechanics remained intact, this would not be much of a competitive game, it'd be more of a "look, I know how to click the win button".

The reason no one has batted said eyelash is because this is a discussion about BP, and Deo - D isn't as huge a problem as BP is at the moment. People were saying the same thing about mKanga when mGengar got banned, what happened? We got to it. . .

 

[Ranger Mike]

The one thing that really pisses me off about this suspect is that it was completely avoidable. Had the announcement that bp is a both not been announced people wouldn't be spamming the ladder with bp ( also we need a clever name for this suspect stage)

 

[Inglorion]

You are not the only person who wants Deo-D gone, don't worry about that. It's probably the next in line for a suspect test...

Good to know man. Right now I'm going through the suspect ladder with my main team, that isn't necessarily tailored to beat BP but has a good fighting chance. I lost TWave in favor of NP on Thundurus, and I was already running Taunt. Anyway I'm still leaning more toward option #1 at this point, for reasons stated above.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Good to know man. Right now I'm going through the suspect ladder with my main team, that isn't necessarily tailored to beat BP but has a good fighting chance. I lost TWave in favor of NP on Thundurus, and I was already running Taunt. Anyway I'm still leaning more toward option #1 at this point, for reasons stated above.

Just to be clear, I'm not the authority on this or anything. But I've been seeing a lot of people complaining about Deo-D, so I'm just making an educated guess.

And I'll stop talking about this before I get moderated...

 

[WebBowser]

You've already shown that replay btw. He didn't have a steel move on Aegislash and he didn't have T-Wave on Thundurus, which was kinda silly on his behalf. He also led Mawile for some weird reason. Any fast attacker, regardless of how the boosts were obtained, whether it be SmashPass, QuiverPass, GeoPass etc, would have swept that guy. His team can't really handle anything at +2/+2.

Ok, fair point. Here's a more competent player who had the misfortune of using draco meteor on a non-mixed mon to kill talonflame. However, despite the fact that killing talonflame would normally be a very nice trade for him, and the fact that he happened to have SR AND one of the best scolipede counters in the game, CB talonflame, he could not stop me from passing +2 speed and +2 defense to excadrill, who proceeded to wreck his team in a manner reminiscent of good ole sand-rush exca from gen 5.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-124224420

Aj is a competent player that I have a lot of respect for, he is much better then I am and there was no way I should have won that. Scolipede is literally the only reason I won, nothing more.