Its Magic Bounce Baton Pass Espeon, Baton Pass Mega Absol, Speed Boost Baton Pass Scolipede, and Baton Pass Speed Boost Ninjask that get banned, nothing else.
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XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]
- Thread starter haunter
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That is what it is changed to? Nobody is saying that non-BP Espeon makes BP (insert mon here) broken.
No. I said that it banned those Pokemon only. As in, they (the Pokemon I listed) can no longer legally know Baton Pass. I have no idea where you're getting that BP Mon + Espeon / Scolipede w/out BP is even being considered, that ends the chain right there.
I'd just like to say, if anybody doubts BP's need for a nerf, just read round 2. All arguments were brought up and brutally fought over, and there's still some reason to vote option 1, but there won't be many that appreciate you for it.
Espeon is shit outside of full BP; you should never be using it for anti-hazard support when you're forced to switch into every goddamn thing that might have Stealth Rock, many of which can OHKO or 2HKO Espeon without her being able to fight back.
Also, why is it that it's just now that people are starting to care about collateral damage? Swagger had legit uses too and it still got banned.
Ahh I misread your post (or did you edit it?). Apologies then.
So for option number 3, it's that Speed Boost + Baton Pass is banned AND Magic Bounce + Baton Pass is banned? What about banning Baton Pass + Speed Boost + Magic Bounce on a team? That makes more sense to me. Because just having Speed Boost + Baton Pass without any other Baton Pass Pokemon isn't broken, and same with Magic Bounce + Baton Pass with no other BP pokes.
After playing a few days on the ladder, here are my initial thoughts. Baton Pass chains are annoying, there's no question about that. I've been getting around them by running Substitute Thundurus, going for the Nasty Plot as they can't do anything relevant with Scolipede, and then Thunderbolt ends up doing sufficient damage to punch a hole in the chain before Thundurus goes down. If they try to go to Sash Smeargle, I Substitute on the Spore and proceed to sweep. Leading with Sylveon is pretty much the only surefire way not to get wrecked, but that's an uncommon thing for a BP chain to lead with.
That said, though, regarding option 3, I have never had too much of an issue with Speed Boost + Baton Pass. Maybe it's just the fact that I've been running a semi-stall team throughout the test, plus Prankster Sableye to burn anything that's passed a boost, but it's Magic Bounce that I find to be the huge issue. Even then, though, virtually requiring every decent team to carry a Prankster Taunt user is not healthy for the metagame, IMO.
That said, though, regarding option 3, I have never had too much of an issue with Speed Boost + Baton Pass. Maybe it's just the fact that I've been running a semi-stall team throughout the test, plus Prankster Sableye to burn anything that's passed a boost, but it's Magic Bounce that I find to be the huge issue. Even then, though, virtually requiring every decent team to carry a Prankster Taunt user is not healthy for the metagame, IMO.
More or less what I was thinking. Prankster has a fair enough chance to check Speed Boost through status effects, but that's futile once the boosts are passed onto a Magic Bounce poke.
Because you're not really proving he's OP, you're proving he's able to compete. Quick passing speed and defense is good, but it's not some ultimate way to win, and it's a valid strategy which deserves to exist. I've used him for that purpose before as well, and while good, it still has similar issues to any other style of Quick Passing.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-124436796 You'll probably like that replay because it shows just Scoli + Espeon as a 'splashable' core destroying a team (me on an Alt), however you've always got to factor in the strength of the opponent, and that guy was simply pretty bad. It wouldn't have mattered what team I was using really and against the better players, it becomes a lot more difficult to pull stuff like that off.
And for that matter, why do people seem to be under the impression that the third option causes that much collateral damage in the first place?
For reference, here are the things affected by this ban:
Espeon
Scolipede
Mega Absol
Ninjask
Out of the four, one is completely unviable in OU, and one is perfectly viable without BP. That leaves Espeon, which is basically defined by its use in full BP teams, and Scolipede.
If Espeon and Scolipede are the things that make BP overpowered/overcentralizing/broken, then complex banning Speed Boost + Baton Pass and Magic Bounce + Baton Pass deals with the problematic aspects of BP effectively. (Scolipede + Espeon + Sylveon/another backup sweeper without the ban is still a broken core IMO, especially since you can use your last 3 teamslots to deal with BP counters (trappers for Haze users, SR setters for Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, etc.)
tl;dr the Speed Boost/Magic Bounce + Baton Pass complex ban fixes the problem far better than the BP user limit. Collateral damage shouldn't even be an issue at this point.
Several thing stop Pinsir, one of them being the most prevalent thing in the game in rocks. Skarmory laughs at anything Pinsir even thinks of doing. both of which are extremely common. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Pinsir isn't a threat, but it's no where near as broken as BP chains are. . .
When I said working as one, I didn't mean one team, I meant one Pokemon. . . It's essentially one HUGE Pokemon setting up until it feels it's time to start dealing damage. Pinsir can be phazed out, much like most set up sweepers. Good luck doing that with a competent player using a BP chain.
The thing is. . . People have began to prepare for it. . . Yet, BP and dEnIsSsS remain at least in the top two positions in the ladder (Not that great in your opinion, that's cute, you must be the greatest player ever). The thing is, if the person facing the BP chain makes one wrong move, it can lose them the game regardless of how "prepared" their team is, it's as simple as that. As I stated in my first comment on this thread, if you don't think BP chains are broken and uncompetitive, then you're one of two things, ignorant to what a COMPETITIVE meta game should look like, or biased.
If you don't see how BP chains are broken, then I'm not sure where you've been the last few months.
dEnIsSsS the Menace?
Incidentally, I am laddering to ban baton pass, haven't decided which option yet. Yeah, on the ladder, baton pass seems to be more prevalent than it ever was. I'm sitting at just over 2200 COIL right now, after going on tilt at least twice. I should be able to get the last 500 in the next couple of days. Baton Pass, as players get more and more skilled using it, can even stop things like stallbreaker Gengar if played correctly, which is what I am trying to use to beat it, with little success now. Honestly, it doesn't take skill to beat otherwise well-balanced teams with baton pass, and against things that are running stuff that is supposed to beat it, such as Mega Pinsir, stallbreaker Gengar, and prankster taunters, it can just play around them. It really isn't fun to play with or against, which is a pretty deciding factor in my mind, if not anyone else's.
Best of luck to everyone laddering to ban this too.
While all of this may sound good on paper, It really does not always work in practice.
For example: You mention prankster taunt being a thing. It is a thing (I use Thundurus and Whimsicott on both of my successful teams). However, Mental Herb is also a thing and the opponents can use that to their advantage. So basically if you're NOT running a taunter with prankster you're gonna lose out as the opponent subs up and passes their speed to Espeon, rendering taunt useless.
Roar kind of falls in the same unreliable boat. Yes you may get lucky and get a roar off, catching your opponent off guard.... but that is only avoiding the ineviatble. For example, let's say you have a Heatran with Roar. When ever your opponent sees that Heatran again, they will automatically BP to their Espeon and boost in your face. Good opponents don't make the same mistake twice.
You brought up a good point with Quagsire. I'm not sure if Haze goes through substitute or not, but Clef and Quag do have Unaware so they ignore boosts. However they can both be played around. It really depends on skill.
That being said, I really believe option 2 is the most feasible option at this point. BP itself is not completely broken... (Espeon and Scolipede have a nice niche) it is the chain that is broken in general and damn near impossible to beat after only a couple turns. I love Thundurus and Whimsicott but I should not have to carry them on a staple on my team just to beat the standard cookie cutter team we've all been seeing on the OU ladder lately. Last time I checked, that's what over-centralizing was.
Mold breaker Haxorus with roar can get rid of any baton passer without a taunter on their team and even then mental herb is an option, also a adamant poison jab can ohko Mr mime 100% of the time and will do 60.7 - 71.6% to this http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/genius-pass-standard-baton-pass-chain.3506272/ variation of Sylvion provided the have no def boosts up. i wouldn't say its the best counter but it still works, and if it doesn't work just use a bunch of priority and taunt that might work to.
Jaiho
bandy legged troll
I am NOT using such a subpar 'mon just to beat BP. If we have to stoop to that then BP is even more obviously broken.
We don't have to though. That's merely another (terrible) option at our disposal.
When somebody posts a crappy pokemon that beats BP, there's always someone who replies to that and tries to make the bad extrapolation that only pokemon like that are able to be effective against BP, when that's clearly not the case. In fact, the ones which are among the best against BP are already mostly S and A-ranked to begin with, like Thundurus-I, Lando-I and Pinsir.
Syberia Prankster WoW is nice and all, but what happens when a special setup sweeper like Togekiss or Manaphy get the def + speed boost? Sure you can try to taunt it to stop them from boosting their attack, but they are still fast af and are darn near impossible to kill. Heck even bulky talonflame can come in with that defense boost, absorb the burn, and use sable as setup bait (if it has enough defense boosts to live the foul play obv) or just outright kill the nuisance.
jbtc10 Here's the difference between scolipede and your run-of-the-mill quick passer, scolipede has (psudo-)bulk to quick pass multiple times. Assuming he has even one teammate who can take whatever hit is incoming (factoring in the defense boost ofc), that teammate basically gets a free turn to setup. Given the sheer number of sweepers in the tier that are dangerous with a single turn of setup, that free turn is frequently all they need to begin sweeping. Most teams can stop an ultra-powerful, un-outspeedable +2 sweeper once, but how many of them can do so twice? That is why Scolipede is so dangerous and imo broken. Also, having next to 0 counters and only checks is not cool. Being able to take a CB TFlame Brave Bird with SR up is not cool at all.
jbtc10 Here's the difference between scolipede and your run-of-the-mill quick passer, scolipede has (psudo-)bulk to quick pass multiple times. Assuming he has even one teammate who can take whatever hit is incoming (factoring in the defense boost ofc), that teammate basically gets a free turn to setup. Given the sheer number of sweepers in the tier that are dangerous with a single turn of setup, that free turn is frequently all they need to begin sweeping. Most teams can stop an ultra-powerful, un-outspeedable +2 sweeper once, but how many of them can do so twice? That is why Scolipede is so dangerous and imo broken. Also, having next to 0 counters and only checks is not cool. Being able to take a CB TFlame Brave Bird with SR up is not cool at all.
This isn't debating Pinsir, but rocks don't stop it, only slow it down. Also its only counters are pretty much, Skarm, RotomW, and Zapdos. Checks: Thundurus, Pinsir. That is about it, there is a few other checks, but not to much.
2 People have topped the ladder with baton pass, other than that it hasn't received that much success. Its beaten unprepared noobs, but so have MegaPinsir and MegaVenusaur, but the meta and most good players adjusted to them. I simply believe the meta should adjust to baton pass.
That is what I did a few months ago, adjusted to baton pass. I'm just wondering why everyone else hasn't and is instead complaining and just saying it should be banned without trying to adapt.
Baton Pass is a very good strategy, that obviously got a boost this generation. Yet, I don't think it is any more over centralizing than some other threats.
The difference here is that Baton Pass is overcentralizing, with its counters doing nothing outside of beating it while counters/checks to Pokemon like Mega Pinsir have other uses. There's also the fact that it is, for lack of a better term, an automatic win against any remotely defensive teams and turns the meta into nothing but Hyper Offense, shitty counter-BP teams, and BP.
just gonna say that bp isnt that good on the suspect ladder because people are ridiculously overpreparing with all their random shit bp counters, if that's your only bp experience ever know it isn't actually representative of the actual meta, where it is ridiculous to be so prepared for it.
I'll open the can.
Or it could show that BP is completely not over powered as much as people believed and the meta can adapt to easily handle it. I mean in a format where far more people are running BP than ever before it's still failing. Maybe the meta just needs to be let adapt. I mean if it's truly so overpowered it should probably be dominating no?
I have to say tho atm pure stall really isn't good (This may be a function of baton pass, but in general full stall struggles due to wall breakers like taunt gengar, which works pretty well vs baton pass to btw. Most good stall teams are semi-stall, which if built well, can also handle baton pass.
Mega Lucario was practically Not counterable. Mega Kang counters IronBarb Rocky Helmet Ferrothron (EQ caused trouble tho) Sableye (Sub sets caused trouble)
Genesect-R
Basically these had few options to counter them.
Status doesn't work since they are constant subs and espeon reflects it. Same with phazing
Strong attacks eventually can't break through due to iron defense and calm minds boosts. When they are about to die they just baton pass to another. Eventually espeon justs wrecks havoc with strong stored powered attacks.
Mr. mime just encores boosting moves so that usually doesn't work. It also stops perish song.
Things that seem to at least semi-work:
Priority taunt: It will stop them from switching out via baton pass. They could switch to espeon but will lose the boosts.
CM unaware Clefable, Takes little damage from anything can do large damage itself. (can be roared away)
Priority attacks work to some extent but 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 186-218 (57.4 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO once boosted a supereffective attack doesn't work then it can just baton pass to Vaporeon 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 117-138 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Mega pinsir does work pretty well with its ability to set up and priority
Other options haze+clear smog (but both have few niches outside of stopping baton pass) also clear smog doesn't work through subs and doesn't affect steels.
Dragontail is an option, but doesn't hurt fairies doesn't go through subs. Circle throw also phazes, but again doesn't go through subs
Surprise phazing (phazing on things that don't normally have it)
Mold breaker whirlwind/roar/taunt
Dark types get a certain nod for being immune to stored power but fear hyper voice and dazzling gleam.
Shedninja can't be hurt at all also it works pretty good vs rain offense
Curse works ok, but they can switch out. Best to use with trevevant for its reliable recovery
Red card can break the chain once (must survive attack tho so sturdy recommended
Multihitting moves also work well as they breaks subs and focus sash. Rock blast get a nod for not being resisted by anything on team.
Trick can cause problems, but not full stop.
Ditto can copy boosts
priority encore
Manaphy can cause problems with its sheer power or even use heartswap
Most boosting special attackers in general.
Trace gardevoir or mega alakazam.
Topsy Turvy
Strong attacks eventually can't break through due to iron defense and calm minds boosts. When they are about to die they just baton pass to another. Eventually espeon justs wrecks havoc with strong stored powered attacks.
Mr. mime just encores boosting moves so that usually doesn't work. It also stops perish song.
Things that seem to at least semi-work:
Priority taunt: It will stop them from switching out via baton pass. They could switch to espeon but will lose the boosts.
CM unaware Clefable, Takes little damage from anything can do large damage itself. (can be roared away)
Priority attacks work to some extent but 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 186-218 (57.4 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO once boosted a supereffective attack doesn't work then it can just baton pass to Vaporeon 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 117-138 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Mega pinsir does work pretty well with its ability to set up and priority
Other options haze+clear smog (but both have few niches outside of stopping baton pass) also clear smog doesn't work through subs and doesn't affect steels.
Dragontail is an option, but doesn't hurt fairies doesn't go through subs. Circle throw also phazes, but again doesn't go through subs
Surprise phazing (phazing on things that don't normally have it)
Mold breaker whirlwind/roar/taunt
Dark types get a certain nod for being immune to stored power but fear hyper voice and dazzling gleam.
Shedninja can't be hurt at all also it works pretty good vs rain offense
Curse works ok, but they can switch out. Best to use with trevevant for its reliable recovery
Red card can break the chain once (must survive attack tho so sturdy recommended
Multihitting moves also work well as they breaks subs and focus sash. Rock blast get a nod for not being resisted by anything on team.
Trick can cause problems, but not full stop.
Ditto can copy boosts
priority encore
Manaphy can cause problems with its sheer power or even use heartswap
Most boosting special attackers in general.
Trace gardevoir or mega alakazam.
Topsy Turvy
I realize some of these are niche and useless vs other teams or aren't full stops, but this is just to show there is a lot that can mess with Baton Pass.
Even going niche etc other things banned didn't have nearly as many options to stop it.
bp is a strategy that succeeds because it is not logical to carry its counters on every team and still be successful. i only win bp matchups because i'm using a fuck mega gardevoir, otherwise it's like cm lando or maybe check it with pinsir or that ass taunt np thundy, or i'm screwed with an offensive team. stall is using lolhaze even still losing if the bp player is good. in the suspect ladder, you can expect lots of bp so it is logical to overprepare, but on a normal basis where people aren't (BAN ME PLEASE)s you're placing yourself at a disadvantage. let's say this stuff all becomes common, bp falls, stuff becomes uncommon because little bp, bp is an issue again. the suspect ladder is not a state of meta that would maintain.
So your point is if people stop using counters stuff would be broken? I'm not seeing the point. If mega gard counters a significant portion of the meta game I'm not seeing the problem.
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