Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Karxrida]

Those sets are uncommon and still somewhat dealt with by Amoonguss. Head Smash Aegislash nearly dies using it on Amoonguss and SD Aegislash loses to Foul Play. In fact Amoonguss beats any Aegislash if it just lives one hit because it's slower and uses Foul Play. On SD Aegislash Iron Head isn't even the better option over Sacred Sword. Anyway, even assuming Amoonguss actually doesn't check the least common set, what would you say is the best switchin to Aegislash then? Mandibuzz also loses to Head Smash as well as the extremely common SubToxic set.

So I'll say it again just as a major point in favor of Amoonguss being bumped at least to A-. Amoonguss is the best as well as the only completely (sans Head Smash) reliable switch-in to the biggest threat in the meta.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 133-157 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- 56.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 267-315 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Aegislash-Shield: 90-106 (28 - 33%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Aegislash-Shield: 176-208 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 240 HP / 16 Def Aegislash-Blade: 328-386 (102.1 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

He's right. You can cherry tap it with Foul Play after Spore puts it to sleep if it doesn't attack you.
Huh.

 

[Srn]

Amoonguss should either stay the same or move up to B+ at most. Amoonguss is a Pokemon that looks fantastic on paper, Spore, Regenerator, a cool typing, but besides that it really sucks. It has 0 offensive presence and after it has put something to sleep it is so easily set up on by everything really. Clear Smog is cool for this and all, but it forces you to run it over Sludge Bomb, and Substitute blocks it just as well, and the amount of Steel-types that beat it are crazy. With Latios and Talonflame being common, it can't even wall amazingly. Ice-, Flying-, Fire-, and Psychic-types all spell doom for it, as even with its bulk it can't handle them. This requires team support (Yes, I acknowledge that this is kind of like >a Pokemon has a weakness), but Amoonguss is supposed to be supporting. It has so many common weaknesses, which makes it tough. It sucks ass against Stall because most carry clerics, making Spore moot and it is not powerful enough to damage them at all. Against Offense it puts something to sleep and then it... well... it just kind of gets set up on or dies. Now don't get me wrong, I love Amoonguss, it's a great Pokemon, it is a great pivot with access to Spore and Regenerator, it has several great qualities, but definitely enough flaws to prevent it from moving all the way up to A. You can't possibly tell me it's on the same level as Pokemon who are consistent such as Hippowdown and Landorus-T? Or even Breloom, Mandibuzz, and Rotom-W. Now on B+ it kind of is on the same level as Gliscor and such, but I'm not sure honestly.

Anyways, I'll be making a post about Quagsire for A- when I get back from vacation u.u

You're forgetting it has access to foul play, which can nail both latios, talonflame, and loads of other switch-ins for some respectable and consistent damage.

So I realized Amoonguss is rated so low because people think it's only good on stall. I don't know what more to say to emphasize how much of an edge Regenerator and 100% sleep give it over Megasaur as a switch-in to threats and a no-cost sponge while getting passive recovery from Black Sludge.

If anyone wants to get experience in its effectiveness on Balance I'd suggest trying an Amoonguss-Heatran-Mandibuzz defensive core. If played correctly I'm sure you'll be more satisfied with Amoonguss than if it was VenuTran. And having a solid defensive core which provides rocks, Defog, and doesn't take up a mega slot (VenuTranSire does not satisfy the latter two) allows for liberal teambuilding with the three remaining slots.

I personally like amoong outside of stall because of how well it deals with rotom-w. I'd argue it deals with rotom-w better than mega venu because of regenerator: when you switch in on a volt switch, the opponent can go into something that threatens mega venu out, and then when rotom-w comes in, it just volt switches on mega venu again. Slowly, mega venu is losing. But this doesn't work against amoong, even with a burn, thanks to regenerator, which is super nice. A defensive spread for amoong (the only one i'd recommend atm) can also take lando-t decently, so it's a pretty nice stop to the pokemon that take sand rush exca.

But there's one important thing that we like to forget with amoong.

most good amoongus sets REQUIRE this switch to gain back health (FoulPlay/GigaDrain/ClearSmog/Spore). So there's definitely opportunity cost that this is the way you activate regenerator. At first, this seems like a great thing, but then you realize that it gets warn down when the poke it is countering doesn't switch.

Saying it is better than Venu is so wrong I'm not sure how you're getting away with this. Over the past couple of days, I've been revamping my venusaur team and I tried amoongus for a while. Now, it's kinda fun because with that one change I move to have three regenerator mons. However, what you lose with Venusaur is sheer massive bulk. You also lose two type resistances, but we'll even ignore that. It goes without saying, but Amoongus cannot do anything Venu does on the physical side.

Don't get me wrong, Amoongus is pretty good. Regenerator is cool, especially in a core of three. By itself, it might be a liability by forcing the switch as the only way of recovery. Doesn't need heal bell for burn, also very cool. In fact, it does take resisted attacks better than Venu by concept of chip damage and regenerator. However, when push comes to shove and you really have to take on a top tier physical threat, I'll take that extra bulk.

TL; DR amoong takes chip damage better, venu has raw bulk that some stall teams needs more.

 

[The Lonely Alula]

Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur just play differently for the most part, so being able to stay in longer because of higher bulk or being able to switch out and recover at the same time shouldn't be considered definitive advantages for neither Mega Venusaur nor Amoonguss. When using Amoonguss, you're mostly to switch it in, have it cripple something with Spore, Clear Smog, or Foul Play, and then switch out recovering health. Its job is to make threats easier to deal with for the rest of the team. When using Venusaur, you're going to bring it in later in the match when its counters and checks are gone for the most part and then use its bulk and recovery to stall out already Toxic'ed or burnt Pokemon.

As far as Krookodile goes I think it's ability to check most Dark-, Ghost-, Psychic-, Fire-, and Electric-types is worth more than C+. However, it really suffers from its lack of recovery, especially since it's not as bulky as some Pokemon and isn't nearly as bulky as it would like to be on the special side, although it can take some special supereffective hits. IMO that is what keeps it from going to B or higher which is why I think it should be B-. Also "lack of bulk" without any further explanation isn't really an argument against Amoonguss nor against Krookodile, as many defensive Pokemon such as Quagsire, Clefable, Sylveon, and Skarmory (on their physical and special sides, respectively for those last two) all don't have as much bulk as they'd like.

 

[Ajwf]

I've already given reasoning as to why it's better (as a defensive mon) and fail to see any valid argument against it. In short, Momentum.

I am not saying Amoonguss compares offensively to Venusaur but when it comes to facing offensive and hyper offensive teams which are everywhere, Venusaur gets overloaded and easily beaten while Amoonguss cripples them for free.

And Amoonguss isn't even meant to face off against Dragonite and even Venusaur isn't a great switch-in either so that's an irrelevant calc as you said. Amoonguss mainly checks special threats with few physical ones like Azumarill and Breloom.

It's true that Venusaur has the advantage of taking knock off better but it doesn't easily beat SD Bisharp 1v1 anyway. Amoonguss isn't a mega so you can run another mega that takes knock off well and can 1v1 Bisharp.

And you can't be serious about Aegislash. Amoonguss is the best switch-in to Aegislash in the game. Firstly it runs max SpD and then it either OHKOes with foul play on BladeSlash, Spores through the KS, or Spores the switch-in. It then just switches out with Regenerator as if it never got hit. Not to mention it has Black Sludge recovery which Venusaur does not so you should probably subtract 6.25% from any Amoonguss calc you care to run.
Now Venusaur comes into a Shadow Ball and then goes 'Hmm so I've lost over a third
of my HP. It would be wise to heal it off since I become quite ineffective if I just keep getting worn down. I'm just going to Synth-HOLY F*CK HE SENT OUT PINSIR.'

Amoonguss sponges a a threatening hit, puts a Pokemon to sleep, and gives its team momentum all at the same time while Venusaur sacrifices the momentum to the other team just to be able to sponge that hit.

Edit: Please bear with my impatience it's just that I've had to spend a lot of time on this topic and most counter arguments are just making me repeat myself. Comparing Amoonguss and Venusaur isn't as simple as posting calcs.

I used the two calcs as virtue of neutral damage on both sides and attackers known for pretty good attacks. But Amoongus isn't quite the best Aegi switch... that award by far goes to Sub Chesnaught who takes every set but Flash Cannon (and aegis who toxic instead of subbing first... Even then aegi is forced out).

I'm not sure the pinsir thing is relevant, given it can't switch into Venu and risk getting crushed by Sludge Bomb. Great check (probably perfect check), but a shaky counter given the bulk. Coupled with the fact that people realize Synthesis has limited PP and so Venu users tend to hold the uses close, you'd rarely find a time advantageous for pinsir to come in with absolute safety especially if Venu was running something to hit whatever just damaged it.

 

[JFrost]

I think he was more asking how the conclusion was reached, not so much saying that Charizard Y should be moved. Maybe I interpreted his post wrong though, idk

Also JFrost Charizard Y is A+ because of its Stealth Rock weakness and the fact that it suffers as a wallbreaker due to Chansey being on nearly every stall team. It's also really hard to justify using Zard Y over a standard Mega DD user, such as Zard X/TTar/Gyarados, mainly because other non-Mega wallbreakers exist who can also do Zard Y's job similarly. Combine this with the fact that it's not very fast, and offensive teams can easily outspeed and revenge kill it, and Chariard Y is easily a A+ threat. Of course, it does have a ton of pros (which is why it's A+), but its flaws keep it from S Rank.

Thanks for contributing to what I had to say.

Completely understood though, but since we can't discuss him apparently (Obviously I'm not alone with thinking he's S Tier worthy if he's the lone pokemon banned from discussion), might as well drop the topic. But it's understandable why he's A+ instead.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Can someone clear up why the title says to focus on certain mons yet nobody is talking about them for pages on end? (bar the whole loom vs ferro thing on pg 106)
I wanted to re nominate mega saur for A+ due to it's role on balance and offensive teams as an excellent glue and for being an amazing stallmon this gen however I want to know if it's against the rule to nominate something currently not in the title. alexwolf

 

[alexwolf]

Nah, it's alright you can talk about anything you want, the 4 Pokemon i mentioned were supposed to give a focus to the thread for a while but we are past this now.

 

[KarateKoala]

How on earth is weavile in C+ rank right now? I've been using him recently, and although hes frail as shit, he just checks so much shit in the meta right now, not limited to landorus, thundurus, bisharp if running low kick, the latis, dragonite, and others. He differentiates himself from mamoswine with pursuit and a stupid strong knock off. He is also one of few pokemon other than scarftar and thundurus that can completely stop the latis from defogging, either by revenging them with ice shard, trapping them with pursuit, or straight up ohkoing them with knock off. He even outspeeds and checks greninja if hes changed type due to protean. In my opinion he's a really underrated mon right now, and even though he requires some skillful play, arguably more so than mamoswine, such as double switches, to utilize, he just does his job so well and checks so much shit at the moment. In short Weavile for B rank, if not B+.

 

[Ropeburn]

In short Weavile for B rank, if not B+.

I think C+ is very generous for such an unfriendly metagame has become towards Weavile. There's so much priority flying around right now, and Stealth Rocks are still easy to get up. Not to mention that weavile gets checked or flat out countered by several pokemon in the A tier. Pursuit trapping is nice, but it faces stiff competition from Bisharp ,Tyranitar, Aegislash and even Scizor as pursuit trappers that function well with little support, compared to a pokemon who has pitiful defenses and a terrible typing.

That's not to say Weavile is bad, STAB Knock Off and a fast Pursuit are nice, but I think Weavile is perfectly fine in C+. It's practically the definition of C rank. it has a notable niche, but a lot notable flaws as well.

 

[Rhaegar]

I used the two calcs as virtue of neutral damage on both sides and attackers known for pretty good attacks. But Amoongus isn't quite the best Aegi switch... that award by far goes to Sub Chesnaught who takes every set but Flash Cannon (and aegis who toxic instead of subbing first... Even then aegi is forced out).

I'm not sure the pinsir thing is relevant, given it can't switch into Venu and risk getting crushed by Sludge Bomb. Great check (probably perfect check), but a shaky counter given the bulk. Coupled with the fact that people realize Synthesis has limited PP and so Venu users tend to hold the uses close, you'd rarely find a time advantageous for pinsir to come in with absolute safety especially if Venu was running something to hit whatever just damaged it.

It would be a far too risky play by Venusaur to use a Sludge Bomb on an Aegislash predicting the Pinsir switch. Most Venus would Synthesis expecting the KS. Even if the Sludge Bomb turned out successful, Venu is still at going to get forced out at 60% which hinders it's ability to switch into things for the rest of the game.

If you don't want to take Pinsir as an example then take Latios. Your Venu took a hit just to be in a losing matchup. A decent player with the Latios would even double switch to end up in an even better position.

As usual I'm just repeating myself here but Venusaur has to take a hit and sacrifices momentum while Amoonguss sponges a hit, guarantees crippling a Pokemon, and then leaves it up to both sides switching into Pokemon of their choice meaning the matchup could go either way.

Venusaur is great offensively and is especially a beast with its 16 HP/252+ SpA/240 Spd set and a great as an Azumarill, Keldeo and Mawile check on offensive teams but defensive Venusaur can't compare to Amoonguss as a switch-in to threats.

And Sub Chesnaught? :/. By far? I'm embarrassed to even give reasoning here but if I don't I'm sure someone may actually state it again, seeing the sort of responses I'm getting. (Again, no offense. I just feel like my energy has been wasted here so far).

Sub Chesnaught coming into Aegislash using a Sub has nothing to do. Aegislash then proceeds to defeat it with the Toxic or Flash Cannon which together comprise over 50% of Aegislash's usage. Even if Chesnaught comes into Shadow Ball, BladeSlash is hardly going to tremble at getting hit by its only attacking move Hammer Arm.
Ironically, Sub Aegislash is a free switch-in to Sub Chesnaught unless it gets hit by Leech Seed coming in in which case it can just switch out and try coming in again no big deal.

How does Sub Chesnaught force Aegislash out? If you're talking about Roar Sub Chesnaught that's just a terrible set and doesn't switch into Aegislash either because it has to take flash cannon or Toxic before phazing.

So Sub Chesnaught, far from being by far the best switchin to Aegislash is in fact a free switch in and set up for Sub Aegislash.

And even if Sub Aegislash, Sub Gengar, and Mega Gardevoir didn't exist, Sub Chesnaught still sucks.

Assuming it wasn't ass in general, how is it the best switch-in to Aegislash when Mandibuzz takes Flash Cannon better and can break Subs with Foul Play instead of being walled by them.

So Chestnaught is not even the second best switch-in or even the tenth.

Amoonguss on the other hand, checks every single set that Aegislash has the potential to run (this has been discussed a few posts ago so if anyone disagrees please look it up before responding). If anything needs to be considered a better switch-in it should be able to reliably switch in to all of Aegislash's sets better than Amoonguss. Not to mention actually do something after that which can match an OHKO with Foul Play or a guaranteed sleep.

The Amoonguss discussion is going in circles now so could a mod please look through my posts from the beginning (please do this, you can ignore this one though) and come to a decision or state their opinion? Almost all the relevant counter arguments are mostly quoted in those posts as well. Amoonguss for A- at the least.

 

[jbtc10]

Those sets are uncommon and still somewhat dealt with by Amoonguss. Head Smash Aegislash nearly dies using it on Amoonguss and SD Aegislash loses to Foul Play. In fact Amoonguss beats any Aegislash if it just lives one hit because it's slower and uses Foul Play. On SD Aegislash Iron Head isn't even the better option over Sacred Sword.

Anyway, even assuming Amoonguss actually doesn't check the least common set, what would you say is the best switchin to Aegislash then? Mandibuzz loses to Head Smash as well as the extremely common SubToxic set.

So I'll say it again just as a major point in favor of Amoonguss being bumped at least to A-. Amoonguss is the best as well as the only completely (sans Sacrificial Life Orb Head Smash on a high roll After Rocks) reliable switch-in to the biggest threat in the meta.

SubToxic is a pretty bad set imo because it gets walled by too many things, including Chansey of all things (which gives it free turns to Wish Pass, set Rocks and cure the team of status) so it's just bad against stall and against offense you're better off with coverage to nail things like Bisharp and T-Tar and priority to pick off weakened stuff. Mandibuzz doesn't even lose to Head Smash (unless it's LO and rocks are up, and Amoongus loses there as well), which is also another poor move because it basically sacrifices your Aegislash in the process, has poor accuracy, and nobody uses it anyway because of that.

252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 361-426 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Then unless you're also running speed to outspeed Mandi (which means recoil is going to be even more huge and will cause you to die after Head Smash + LO and another round of LO recoil), Mandi can either just Foul Play you or Roost in your face until you die from recoil.

I really like Amoongus, I use it on a lot of my Stall teams lately and it should definitely move up to B+ at least and A- at most, but it does experience problems against Aegislash depending on what defensive stat you invest in:

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 214-253 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

That said, it still scouts the Aegislash set better than anything else and after taking the Iron Head it can switch out into something else that can handle it better and regen back up to good health while doing so (I actually use a physically defensive Amoongus anyway, but most don't seem to). Mandibuzz is still better at handling Aegislash overall imo because it doesn't really care whether it's a special or physical attacker as much as things like Chesnaut and Amoongus do, and it has a better speed tier which means it only has to take 1 hit before being able to retaliate unlike Amoongus (and it has Taunt to check SubToxic as well). But yes, move the shroom up to at least B+ immediately.

 

[Ajwf]

And Sub Chesnaught? :/. By far? I'm embarrassed to even give reasoning here but if I don't I'm sure someone may actually state it again, seeing the sort of responses I'm getting. (Again, no offense. I just feel like my energy has been wasted here so far).

Sub Chesnaught coming into Aegislash using a Sub has nothing to do. Aegislash then proceeds to defeat it with the Toxic or Flash Cannon which together comprise over 50% of Aegislash's usage. Even if Chesnaught comes into Shadow Ball, BladeSlash is hardly going to tremble at getting hit by its only attacking move Hammer Arm.
Ironically, Sub Aegislash is a free switch-in to Sub Chesnaught unless it gets hit by Leech Seed coming in in which case it can just switch out and try coming in again no big deal.

How does Sub Chesnaught force Aegislash out? If you're talking about Roar Sub Chesnaught that's just a terrible set and doesn't switch into Aegislash either because it has to take flash cannon or Toxic before phazing.

So Sub Chesnaught, far from being by far the best switchin to Aegislash is in fact a free switch in and set up for Sub Aegislash.

And even if Sub Aegislash, Sub Gengar, and Mega Gardevoir didn't exist, Sub Chesnaught still sucks.

Just saying, Chesnaught gets EQ. Now good game Aegislash. I've been using it as a counter for months, I don't think I'd mislead you on something so basic.

To be honest, at some point in time, I could see chesnaught at B+. An underrated partner for Quagsire, Chesnaught handles both mold breaker mons commonly seen in OU (Gyara-m and Excadrill). He's a great stop to sand rush Excadrill teams, a beautiful Aegislash counter, and on stall, he's a really nice Terrakion check (as that's how you should play against a terrakion). The Sub set is uniquely good at attacking, taking advantage of good coverage moves (EQ, Rock slide, Shadow claw) to hit (and ohko many) switch ins. Things like Heatran, Volcarona, Talonflame, Latios, Pinsir-mega, Alakazam (psyshock sets [-dazzling gleam] lose to sub Chesnaught w/Shadow Claw) Greninja and both Charizard forms frequently come in on Chesnaught. Using the appropriate attack (generally rock slide if you have a good aegi check, eq if not), you easily gain KOs that you just couldn't manage without the protection of a sub. Volcarona's bug buzz does 60% from lefties set max, so you're fine there as long as you've stayed healthy.

He has downside vs a lot of fairies even with that sub set. Obviously Hyper Voice sucks. However, the two fairies that bother his sub set aren't something you'll see on every team. Chesnaught can run Poison Jab (though recommended with spiky shield to avoid losing free HP) to hit fairies on switches and deal a solid 2hko to Gard or any specially defensive fairies. Outside of fairies, pokemon that get in while he doesn't have a sub can easily force him back. However, his walling potential is such that even then many physical SE attacks (Besides fairy and flying) can be absorbed.

For example
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 276-328 (72.6 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

There is literally nothing Aegislash without flash cannon can do to dismantle to Chesnaught. Toxic is cute, but if Chesnaught comes in on a sub or Shadow ball, he steals a sub and forces his momentum. Even then, Toxic takes long enough that Chesnaught can finish Aegi long before (he outspeeds Aegislash, one of the very nice things about that base 64 speed).

In B+, he'd be paired with Amoongus if it moves up, a grass wall that I think is top three option for stall for the grass spot with Chesnaught. Slowbro, the other main regenerator mon, is not only a good partner but shares some of the same level of niches. Slowbro with foul play is an excellent check to ZardX. Also a good Terrakion/Excadrill switch, his AV set makes him able to mess with Keldeo and disregard one Solar Beam from Charizard-Y. As a water mon on stall, competition from Quagsire (also B+), Gyarados-mega, and general Gyarados (also B+). Diggersby is an excellent wallbreaker (Thanks Gary2346 ). It's plagued by slow speeds, a bit of a weakness to its counterpart's priority (Azum) and perhaps the presence of gengar, which is completely immune to the LO SD set.

In my opinion, B+ is good company for Chesnaught.

 

[Rhaegar]

Just saying, Chesnaught gets EQ. Now good game Aegislash. I've been using it as a counter for months, I don't think I'd mislead you on something so basic.

To be honest, at some point in time, I could see chesnaught at B+. An underrated partner for Quagsire, Chesnaught handles both mold breaker mons commonly seen in OU (Gyara-m and Excadrill). He's a great stop to sand rush Excadrill teams, a beautiful Aegislash counter, and on stall, he's a really nice Terrakion check (as that's how you should play against a terrakion). The Sub set is uniquely good at attacking, taking advantage of good coverage moves (EQ, Rock slide, Shadow claw) to hit (and ohko many) switch ins. Things like Heatran, Volcarona, Talonflame, Latios, Pinsir-mega, Alakazam (psyshock sets [-dazzling gleam] lose to sub Chesnaught w/Shadow Claw) Greninja and both Charizard forms frequently come in on Chesnaught. Using the appropriate attack (generally rock slide if you have a good aegi check, eq if not), you easily gain KOs that you just couldn't manage without the protection of a sub. Volcarona's bug buzz does 60% from lefties set max, so you're fine there as long as you've stayed healthy.

He has downside vs a lot of fairies even with that sub set. Obviously Hyper Voice sucks. However, the two fairies that bother his sub set aren't something you'll see on every team. Chesnaught can run Poison Jab (though recommended with spiky shield to avoid losing free HP) to hit fairies on switches and deal a solid 2hko to Gard or any specially defensive fairies. Outside of fairies, pokemon that get in while he doesn't have a sub can easily force him back. However, his walling potential is such that even then many physical SE attacks (Besides fairy and flying) can be absorbed.

For example
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 276-328 (72.6 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

There is literally nothing Aegislash without flash cannon can do to dismantle to Chesnaught. Toxic is cute, but if Chesnaught comes in on a sub or Shadow ball, he steals a sub and forces his momentum. Even then, Toxic takes long enough that Chesnaught can finish Aegi long before (he outspeeds Aegislash, one of the very nice things about that base 64 speed).

In B+, he'd be paired with Amoongus if it moves up, a grass wall that I think is top three option for stall for the grass spot with Chesnaught. Slowbro, the other main regenerator mon, is not only a good partner but shares some of the same level of niches. Slowbro with foul play is an excellent check to ZardX. Also a good Terrakion/Excadrill switch, his AV set makes him able to mess with Keldeo and disregard one Solar Beam from Charizard-Y. As a water mon on stall, competition from Quagsire (also B+), Gyarados-mega, and general Gyarados (also B+). Diggersby is an excellent wallbreaker (Thanks Gary2346 ). It's plagued by slow speeds, a bit of a weakness to its counterpart's priority (Azum) and perhaps the presence of gengar, which is completely immune to the LO SD set.

In my opinion, B+ is good company for Chesnaught.

The Sub set needs Leech Seed, Substitute and Spiky shield so can only run one attacking move. If it gives up Hammer Arm it can't hit Balloon Drill. If it gives up EQ it can't hit Aegislash. And if it gives up Poison Jab it can't hit fairies.
If anything Hammer Arm is probably the best choice followed by EQ but both sets still get walled by Grass types. You can't dedicate a whole teamslot exclusively for coming into Aegislash when the set is otherwise barely effective. If you're worried about Sand Drill then just run a one click kill on it like LO Breloom or CB Azumarill.

That being said, Chesnaught is quite good outside a sub set with Leech Seed and Spiky Shield. Just that Sub makes you take the trouble of setting up just to get walled by most Grass types and other opposing Subs.

 

[jbtc10]

Bringing up what alexwolf was saying a while ago, Espeon actually needs to move up to B+.

A lot of people were saying that Espeon was mostly trash outside of BP (including me, admittedly) but after mucking around with some quick-passing teams I've found that it can actually act as a better stall breaker than Magic Guard Clefable (who should drop to A by the way) in many situations because it can't be Phazed or Taunted, 2 things which really shut down Clefable, and most of the time Magic Bounce also covers the things that Magic Guard does anyway, like being unable to be Toxic'd or Seeded. This is in addition to the obvious benefit of being able to bounce hazards and status moves back throughout the game and it's existence in team preview puts pressure on the opponent and forces them to play more carefully. Being what makes Full BP playable is already enough for that rank, but being an excellent quick-pass recipient in the Scolipede + Espeon core and being a standalone threat against stall can't be overlooked either, all of which justify this rank.

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Morning Sun

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-125618521

 

[theV8man]

If you're using Amoonguss as opposed to Mega-Venusaur on a stall team, you have no reliable answer to Mega-Mawile unless you use something obscure like Tentacrual. When it comes to stall, Mega-Venusaur is honestly the better choice. When it comes to balance, Amoonguss is probably better because of it's ability to take small hits better, pivot, and allow you to use another mega.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Nah, it's alright you can talk about anything you want, the 4 Pokemon i mentioned were supposed to give a focus to the thread for a while but we are past this now.

ok thanks

Anyways

• Mega Venusaur for A+ (I would say S if it wasn't a mega but eh, can't use it with potent stuff like Zard X what are you gonna do?)

Mega Venusaur is one of the best glue pokemon in the entire meta, it can be defensive either way or mixed defensive EVs or it can be bulky offensive with a choice between the moves: leaf storm, giga drain, sludge bomb, hp fire, sleep powder, and or synthesis (tbh you mainly should be using synthesis unless sleep is that much needed).

• • Role as offensive glue

It's role as offensive glue is potent to both balance and offense. It can easily check or counter top threats to such teams like azumarill and keldeo (beware of hp flying, especially in tour play) and landorus-t (252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 163-193 (44.7 - 53%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO)
that lack key stall mons like quagsire to take on these threats. The set used by user CrashinBoomBang in the team analysis project is a great example of mvenu as offensive glue, the set optimizes venus role as glue and makes sure to use it to it's potential. There are so much times I've just slapped Thundurus and Mvenu on a balance team and thought "what sweeper (aside from like, lando-i or some shit) is going to get through this team with this solid anti sweeper core". also it isn't weak, especially for a defensive mon with such titan like defenses, giga drain 2hkos 4/0 ddance mttar in sand and sludge bomb 2hkos sdeff sylveon after rocks (
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 186-222 (47.2 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) something even specs keld hpump cannot achieve (granted it's super effective but you get the point, this shit is not weak) and that sheer force LO lando can achieve in the same damage range with sludge wave(252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery). I think this is the most underrated role of mvenu yet

• • Defensive Glue

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 48 SpA / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Sleep Powder / Roar / Filler

This is the set people generally should be using, again credit to CrashinBoomBang the god of using msaur on offense/balance. a quick quote from the article "watchu got"

Giga Drain and, at least in my opinion, Sludge Bomb are mandatory on Venusaur and so is the instant recovery provided by Synthesis. Sleep Powder is my favorite 4th move because it takes out any of its usual switchins, not just select ones such as Earthquake for Heatran (which leaves you unable to do anything at all to Scizor). Of course, it's limited to one Pokémon at a time but its utility is just invaluable for offensive teams. Defense is preferred over Special Defense as it allows Venusaur to check Pokémon such as Garchomp, Landorus-T and even Talonflame (Choice Band Brave Bird never OHKOes) much better while still taking on Psychic-less Manaphy, Keldeo, Extrasensory-less Greninja, and HP Flying-less Thundurus, all of which threaten offense a lot. The only Pokémon you really miss out on is Aegislash, and you can't hurt it without Earthquake or Hidden Power anyway.

It's hard to beat this description and there's little to explain aside from this. Mega Venusaur prevents many things from tearing up balance and offense.

• • Stall Saur

It's no joke when you realize this is the pokemon that honestly changed the face of stall forever. Mega Venusaur revolutionized the stall playstyle and how we deal with it. This pokemon changed useful 4th slot coverage moves for entire types into psychic just for it on offensive mons. Mega Venusaur was stall until about March or so, where it originally dropped from S rank. Mega Venusaur has great synnergy with pretty much everything on stall, Chansey, Quagsire, Clefable, Heatran, Skarmory, etc. Pretty much anything on your stall team with easy to exploit holes can use a mega venusaur to become nigh untouchable. Chansey-Quagsire-Heatran-Mvenu teams are the reason we have spots on stall for filler, these 4 mons combined can take on just about anything with an addition of SKarmory for mega pinsir. While this is it's oldest role, it's definitely bad by any means it's the most consistent, strongest, bulkiest and generally useful of all bulky grass types, and if you seriously think Amoonguss belongs in A- while this thing is currently in A I really don't know what to say. Sure the mega slot to use zard X can be cool but you literally achieve the same thing with the venutran core with more general bulk to support the core. Amoong can never be a true replacement to mvenu. It's irreplaceable.

Overall Mvenu is such a good XY mon I can rarely ever find a reason to not use it on my teams, however using it does give up a mega slot which can be annoying on offense, and keeps it from S rank

 

[jbtc10]

If you're using Amoonguss as opposed to Mega-Venusaur on a stall team, you have no reliable answer to Mega-Mawile unless you use something obscure like Tentacrual. When it comes to stall, Mega-Venusaur is honestly the better choice. When it comes to balance, Amoonguss is probably better because of it's ability to take small hits better, pivot, and allow you to use another mega.

Mega Venusaur doesn't exactly scream reliability against Mega-Mawile either;

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 154-183 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 307-363 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Which means it can lose quite easily to both Swords Dance and Sub variants if they carry Iron Head, and can't really do much back;

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 108-128 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It fares better than Amoongus, granted, but it's still not really much to write home about in this regard, so you still need to carry other checks/counters to Mawile on your stall team regardless, so it's not that much of a plus over Amoongus.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Mega Venusaur doesn't exactly scream reliability against Mega-Mawile either;

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 154-183 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 307-363 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Which means it can lose quite easily to both Swords Dance and Sub variants if they carry Iron Head, and can't really do much back;

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 108-128 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It fares better than Amoongus, granted, but it's still not really much to write home about in this regard, so you still need to carry other checks/counters to Mawile on your stall team regardless, so it's not that much of a plus over Amoongus.

lol no good mawile set runs iron head, it's fire fang or knock off/sucker punch/sd/play rough or for the sub set: sucker punch/sub/focus punch/play rough

Also if your using mvenu as offensive glue to handle things you should be using 216 spA EVs at least and modest nature, and at least 16 EVs on defensive glue

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

just posting to say that mvenu is definitely A+ for the offensive set that thing is probably the single most underrated mon on offense because it just covers so much shit offensive teams usually have trouble with (azu, conk, keldeo, non hp fly thund to name afew) while still being a stellar offensive presence. very few things want to deal with STAB poison/STAB grass/fire off of 376 special attack and it even 2HKOs mons such as latios. it's just ridiculously efficient and, unless you're facing a team made specifically to capitalize off of mvenu on stall or something, probably does a lot every game.

mvenu on stall is garbage idk why people still run it lol

 

[theV8man]

Mega Venusaur doesn't exactly scream reliability against Mega-Mawile either;

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 154-183 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 307-363 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Which means it can lose quite easily to both Swords Dance and Sub variants if they carry Iron Head, and can't really do much back;

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 108-128 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It fares better than Amoongus, granted, but it's still not really much to write home about in this regard, so you still need to carry other checks/counters to Mawile on your stall team regardless, so it's not that much of a plus over Amoongus.

Iron head is a pretty bad move on Mega-Mawile. The best set is SD/Sub, Play Rough, Sucker Punch, Fire Fang, which lets it 2HKO pretty much everything besides Mega-Venusaur and Tentacruel (lol)

 

[Jukain]

lol no good mawile set runs iron head, it's fire fang or knock off/sucker punch/sd/play rough or for the sub set: sucker punch/sub/focus punch/play rough

Also if your using mvenu as offensive glue to handle things you should be using 216 spA EVs at least and modest nature, and at least 16 EVs on defensive glue

actually iron head is a good option and has been used on good teams, don't knock it.

agreeing with cbb offensive venu is a monster.

 

[jbtc10]

Iron head is a pretty bad move on Mega-Mawile. The best set is SD/Sub, Play Rough, Sucker Punch, Fire Fang, which lets it 2HKO pretty much everything besides Mega-Venusaur and Tentacruel (lol)

It's mostly used for Mega Venu specifically, I know it's not the most common move to see on it, but people do use it for that purpose to help bring Venu undone.

 

[President Shinra]

just posting to say that mvenu is definitely A+ for the offensive set that thing is probably the single most underrated mon on offense because it just covers so much shit offensive teams usually have trouble with (azu, conk, keldeo, non hp fly thund to name afew) while still being a stellar offensive presence. very few things want to deal with STAB poison/STAB grass/fire off of 376 special attack and it even 2HKOs mons such as latios. it's just ridiculously efficient and, unless you're facing a team made specifically to capitalize off of mvenu on stall or something, probably does a lot every game.

mvenu on stall is garbage idk why people still run it lol

Mvenu on stall is actually amazing if used properly, with Seed + Synthesis + Thick Fat it can stall for days, with powerful STAB attacks to help wear them down. However, it still takes up a mega slot, a very valuable thing for a defensive team, and has no lefties, meaning I think A is good.

Can't comment on offensive though.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Mega Venu is amazing on any playstyle, really. It checks so many things it's hilarious. I don't know why it was allowed to get lower than A+.

I think everyone was like "Mega Venu is unbreakable!" in the beginning of the gen. Then eveybody and their mother started packing psychic and flying moves, so suddenly venu started getting underrated. But the fact that everyone is packing those moves, and how well mega venu walls teams if the pokemon who use those moves go down, should make it A+. It's just the best defensive pokemon in the meta, hands down.

 

[Magicfire]

Offensive MegaSaur is a beast, but MegaSaur itself started being a bit underrated when Greninja started running Extrasensory, Landy started running Psychic, etc. People were all like, "MegaSaur can be beaten, it's not amazing anymore." The fact that Pokemon will run one move just for it shows how good MegaSaur is and its presence in the metagame. MegaSaur is that even as an offensive mon, it's still so bulky. It also has so many options, from Defensive to Specially Defensive to offensive. If the amazingness of Offensive MegaSaur isn't enough, think about all the things it checks: Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Mawile, Thundy, etc. Move it to A+