Gen 6 Swagger Clause?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Hugendugen

Hugendugen

Noam Chompsky.
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
This is an issue that's been boiling over recently. Especially since OU introduced their Swagger Clause, I've been getting inundated with requests for Ubers to do the same. As you're all aware, Ubers is historically very cautious when it comes to implementing any sort of clause, let alone ban, so before we start, I'd like to make a few things clear:
  1. Ubers is where we allow people to use the most powerful Pokemon around. We will not be balancing the metagame by banning Pokemon that we consider "too strong". Please don't use this thread as an opportunity or a precedent to suggest doing so.
  2. While it may be convenient, we don't need to use the same clauses as OverUsed. Evasion Clause, which we removed in Gen 5, is an example of this.
  3. There is precedent for using clauses to remove aspects of the game that can consistently force game changing dice rolls. Moody and OHKO Clause were examples of this. However, as we decided with Evasion Clause, the Move/Ability/etc. must actually have a significant impact on the game.
Now onto the actual discussion: Swagger. In case you've been living under a rock, Swagger confuses the target and boosts its attack by +2, essentially doubling the damage dealt by confusion. Confusion, of course, gives the Pokemon a 50% chance to attack itself with a 40 BP typeless physical attack. New Pokemon, mainly Klefki, and new strategies, including Swagger boosted Scarf Ditto, have made the move significantly more prevalent than it was in previous gens. While it hasn't really reached top level play, it appears to be especially common on the ladder. This is a good example of your standard Swagger team.

What I'd like from this thread, is to hear what the community thinks. In the end, as Ubers Leader, I will be deciding whether or not Swagger Clause will be implemented. However, I don't want to make the decision on my own. I've spoken about it at length with the other Ubers mods and will be reading all of your input here, before making my final decision.

Do you think Swagger has enough of an impact on the game to warrant it being removed? Is the luck element significant enough and is it the move actually used enough that we should implement Swagger Clause?

Please use common sense when posting. Be polite towards others, put thought into your post and, if you can, try to back up your arguments with data or examples, rather than simply throwing out assertions. We'll be heavily monitoring the thread and deleting anything that we don't deem helpful or appropriate.
 
I do believe that swagger clause should be implemented.

WAIT, I KNOW WHAT YOU'RE THINKING.

I've been a user/abuser of Swagger, very similar to Fixd, and it has won me crucial matches. I regard it as broken, based purely on luck, and an underhanded strategy (hence, why I used it) and should be removed from a game based on skill.
 
SwagPlay is a mindless, unskillful, and disrespectful way to battle in a tier that requires skill. It needs to be banned. It is making the most intense and fast paced metagame into a joke, and it is slowly beginning to ruin the competitive aspect of Ubers. I AM A VICTIM
 
YES.
Please remove it.
There is no competitive use for it, it forces extremely heavily luck-based games for which other clauses have been put into place even in Ubers, and it seems to cause more conflict than any other rule-abiding behaviour (and even some rule-breaking behaviour). There have been several incidents of considerable dissent between users, and while I would not defend public hostility that begins to cross over into bullying that has on occasion resulted from the use of this strategy, it should be evident that swagger is toxic both to competitive play and to the community.
 
Do you think Swagger has enough of an impact on the game to warrant it being removed?
While Swagger is not used at all in higher level play (At least not in UPL so far), it severely affects our ladder. People come onto the ladder and use Swagger purely to "Troll" other users, and while it serves some competetive use (Mainly Ditto uses it to its advantage), it is extremely unhealthy for the metagame to be turned into coinflips. People may see this and think "Ubers is a banlist, we ban nothing" but Swagger serves little competitive purpose and turns any match into luck reliant victories, for either side. We do try to steer away from bans but this is just too much for XY to deal with. Having it gone will greatly improve our ladder and make it enjoyable for all users.

Is the luck element significant enough and is it the move actually used enough that we should implement Swagger Clause?
If i remember the chance correctly, the combination of Swagger + Paralysis leaves your opponent with a 30% chance to move for the first 2 turns both effects are active. This essentially means the opponent has the same chance of hitting you with a OHKO move such as Sheer Cold as they do with retaliating back under the effects of Swagger + Thunder Wave. This is extremely one sided, and to add to that, you can simply use Substitute and fish for more self-hits. This is awfully broken and ultimately ruins our metagame in more ways than one.

Get it outta here.
 
"consistently force game changing dice rolls. Moody and OHKO Clause were examples of this. " In that case you would need to ban most confusion moves. Swagger is the worst confusion support move boosting attack but Flatter does the same though it doesn't cause as much recoil damage. One reason swagger was banned was because of pranksters who could out speed anyone and most of the time got thunder wave for more bullshit. I think Swagger ban should also include other confusion moves with decent chances to cause confusion (excluding moves like Signal Beam which have 10% and their main purpose is to give bug coverage).

Moody will always boost a stat and you just need to wait until Bidoof or Glalie gets a good hand. OHKO is just complete dice roll for a 1/3 free kill and no one serious will miss it. However confusion has always been a part of the game that has been considered unviable yet annoying. It either works and they don't get a move (type neutral paralyze) or you wasted your time and they aren't affected. Swagger just raises the payout (more recoil versus physical damage boost)
 
I'm usually not in favor of banning or removing elements of the game, especially in ubers which exists as a place to use elements of the game deemed overpowered by lower tiers. i am only in favor of eliminating elements of the game that can be considered degenerate. Strategies that heed no mind to a players opponent and allow said player to play without regard to their opponent. Swagger falls into this category with ease. There are many other luck based strategies in this game, but swagger has many things that they do not that allow it to be significantly more of a threat and danger to teams and game balance. Said factors are what got it banned in all lower tiers. Swagger allows the user to hinder the opponent in such a way that it turns the game into a series of coin flips. It, in most cases, allows for a comeback off of a 50% chance. OHKO moves, which were deemed uncompetitive in a similar way, had a significantly lower chance than that. Ubers is a tier that should have the minimal bans needed for the optimal competitive ban, and swagger should fall under that, as it allows players to ignore all skill this game has and essentially make it a crapshoot.
 
As an abuser of swagger, I think that swagger is extremely uncompetitive. A move as luck-based as swagger should never be allowed in a competitive metagame. With enough luck, you can literally plow right through the tier with this bullshit, and anyone can spam swagger and substitute. Swagger has literally no competitive use and just causes games to end up being coin flips. Although most people consider ubers to be a "banlist", that shouldn't stop it from being a competitive metagame just because broken Pokemon are allowed.

Ban this shit.
 
I am a firm believer that Swagger should be banned from Ubers. As some of you may know, I am rather... vocal about this issue.

Firstly, simply put, Swagger requires significantly less skill than playing normally. Similar to Moody and OHKO moves (both of which have been banned), the game boils down to a coin flip. It doesn't matter whether you're playing your first game, or if you've been playing competitive Pokemon since RBY. Swagger completely removes the skill aspect of the game, which is one of the reasons why it's so widely disliked.

Secondly, it has become increasingly prevalent and more and more of an issue. In tournament play, we haven't seen too much of it, partially because that would really bring out the pitchforks. But for those who have been laddering recently, I think that most will agree that even near the top, it's not uncommon to see at least one Pokemon with Prankster Swagger in every other game. In fact, it's been so successful on the ladder, that Fixed has recently topped the ladder with Swagger, and has posted an RMT about it.

Thirdly, compared to OU, full Swagger teams are even more successful in Ubers. Uber Pokemon generally have higher attack stats (even if they are special attackers), meaning that they'll hit themselves just that much harder when they get confused. Ubers is also home to a number of excellent wallbreakers that would otherwise prevent Swagger from being successful. Many defensive Pokemon (e.g. Blissey) that would otherwise be practically unaffected by Swagger can be easily cleared out with potent offensive threats like Mega Lucario and Yveltal, both of which are unavailable in OU.

Fourth, a number of Prankster Swagger users either resist or are immune to many common forms of priority. Klefki immediately comes to mind, resisting moves like Extreme Speed and Sucker Punch. Sableye is also immune to Extreme Speed. This means that even with priority, it is extremely difficult to take down these Pokemon before you get confused and paralyzed, meaning that it is extremely likely that the enemy Pokemon will be safely behind a substitute before you can attack it.

Finally, very few people actually like it. For anyone who has ever had to experience the frustration of Prankster Paralysis and Swagger, it is probably very obvious that it is not enjoyable to face. The "strategy" (if it can be called that) is generally met with hateful remarks (I am guilty of doing this), and in general, is toxic not only to the competitiveness of the tier, but also the community. As such, there is little reason to keep this move. It contributes nothing useful to competitive Pokemon, and contributes even less to the community.
 
Petrico94 said:
"consistently force game changing dice rolls. Moody and OHKO Clause were examples of this. " In that case you would need to ban most confusion moves. Swagger is the worst confusion support move boosting attack but Flatter does the same though it doesn't cause as much recoil damage. One reason swagger was banned was because of pranksters who could out speed anyone and most of the time got thunder wave for more bullshit. I think Swagger ban should also include other confusion moves with decent chances to cause confusion (excluding moves like Signal Beam which have 10% and their main purpose is to give bug coverage).
Click to expand...
I've never seen anyone have trouble with Prankster Confuse Ray before. I really think it's the boost in damage hitting yourself when swaggered does that pushed it over the edge.
 
People should bear in mind that this is regarding the move swagger on its own. I think it should not be banned since its +2 granted to the opponent is a double edged sword against a fair few pokemon. Confusion in itself is perfectly manageable, otherwise there would be uproar against that. From what i have seen, swagger does not over centralize the metagame nor have players seriously used it for that matter. The abuse that many are familiar with and use as a foothold for their arguments centers around its use in conjunction with prankster which is a different argument even if solved by the clause
 
When using a team of swagplay. There is no skill involved just pure luck and preset moves based on if the opponents is para'd, confused, and if you have a sub. Since smogon promotes healthy metagames with skill involed i believe swagger should be banned.
 
Blue Jay said:
Please remove it.
There is no competitive use for it, it forces extremely heavily luck-based games for which other clauses have been put into place even in Ubers
Click to expand...
Just to build on the uncompetitive argument,

Edgar brought up a very good point on a now locked and long gone thread. The gist of it was that your could turn a competitive tournament match for SPL, WCoP, UPL ect. that you think you will struggle in into a completely luck based game in order to keep yourself or your team in the tournament just doesn't feel right. This is only slightly more skill based than an activity coin flip which requires no skill at all.

I am a strong supporter of Swagger Clause. Thank you for hearing us out Hugen ^_^
I might post more here later
 
Last edited:
I'll probably post a wall of text later but for now, anything that has the possibility of making a game pretty much a continuous coin flip should be looked at accordingly and dealt with separately. On that note swagger is definitely worthy of a clause, as it not only makes the game a coin flip its add damage unto the wasted turn much more than confusion by itself. People generally bring up luck with moves like focus blast and status like t-wave, but with a thing like this around those incidents are minor.
 
I'm not going to say anything that everybody else already hasn't, but I'm going to go ahead and say that adding more uncompetitive, luck-based strategies to this game than there already is is a bad idea. And you can't make the argument that it's not a viable strategy like (supposedly) Evasion was, since Swagger has excellent distribution and has been shown (just ask the players here) to turn games around. This is a fact that was shown in OU to be worth banning and nothing about the Ubers tier makes it any different to this.
 
Yes, get rid of it. It is ridiculously easy to spam sub/twave/swagger with prankster, and the odds of getting free turns are heavily in the users favor. I believe it is extremely unhealthy for a strategy (if you could call it that) like this to exist in any game that strives to be competitive.

Yeah, ubers is a banlist first, but it is also a tier many people play and enjoy, and as long as it's still legal people are gonna abuse it. I vote for a quick ban if possible.
 
To me, swagger seems to win or lose based on team archetypes. I mean, stall teams, especially with ground types can make swagger lose 6-0. But against something like a hyper-offense team, swagger really can destroy them. It's similar to sticky web, depends on the type of team its facing, it gets the upper hand against offense, but stall and some balanced teams have the upper hand. But swagger is a fair bit more luck-based than sticky web, but can be useless, so I want to support Steve Angello's idea of a complex ban, which isn't allowed. That means I have to go with swagger should be banned.
 
I'm very vocal about this. It should be clear what I'd be in favor of.

YES.

Do you think Swagger has enough of an impact on the game to warrant it being removed?
It's very difficult for me to not encounter a swagplay team during a laddering session. And honestly, it's better for me to forfeit these battles and win other battles instead of trying to PP stall them to death, just because going for 50% chance of not inflicting massive damage oneself is an unacceptable risk. While, it's rarely to never used in ubers tournaments because most people have decency to not use it. However, given time, we probably would eventually see people using swagplay wins tournaments. In fact, a such instance recently happened- in XY Ubers Tournament, Haruno lost to Krauersaut because Krau brought swagplay for the deciding game. To paraphrase what Optic said before- if you know that you'll lose, just bring swagplay since you'll have ~50% chance of winning. Such sentiment is very uncompetitive.

Is the luck element significant enough and is it the move actually used enough that we should implement Swagger Clause?
Yeah. Just go on ladder, and I guarantee that you'll see Swagger within 10 matches. It's tremendously annoying and frustrating when you lose to it lol.

Steve Angello
I have to disagree with Prankster+Swagger ban. Swagger itself is the cause of problem. Swagger has no place in competitive pokemon.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zf
Will elaborate more later, but yes Swagger Clause should be implemented because it is heavily luck based, which completely removes the competitive and skill base that most of us like having. It's not about being gimmicky, it's about annoying the opponent. Noncompetitive, and unskillful.
 
It should be banned.
I don't see how this in Ubers is different from OU.

In both tiers, it is completely luck-based and uncompetitive, not to mention gimmicky. Please implement Swagger Clause. Thank you.

It's not so much about how an aspect (in this case swagger) is different in ubers than it is in OU as much as Ubers has a completely different viewpoint on what should and shouldn't be allowed in the metagame. ~MM2
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Alright, there's really not much to add that hasn't been said already; but yes I would be completely in favor of swagger being banned from the Ubers meta. It is ridiculous how little it adds to the metagame skill-wise, in fact it adds NOTHING skill-wise. It is entirely reliant upon luck and it has an unfair advantage vs. Hyper Offense teams. All it takes is two or three unlucky times hitting yourself and you're beyond fucked unless you're running a damn stall team. Otherwise the whole match is just praying you don't hit yourself/get para'd, and we all know the odds ARE NOT in your favor at all.

Ban this stupid shit
 
Okay, time for my opinion:

Swagger teams are gaining prominence on the ladder, so much so that a Swagger team has even reached #1. Swagger also doesn't necessarily need to be on Prankster Pokemon to be annoying - the aforementioned team used it on GeoXern to potentially cheese its way through its checks (even hard checks like Aegislash), and I've even seen it used on Pokemon such as Lugia (keep in mind every single competitively viable Pokemon learns Swagger) meant to simply stall alongside Toxic while it heals and Subs off the generated free turns. Combined with stuff like Mega Gengar to take out the few counters to Swagger teams and Scarf Ditto copying +2 Groudon or Ho-Oh to punish physical attackers, Swagger is an incredibly cheap way to force luck-based situations that usually leave your opponent on the losing end of the deal, and it is capable of defeating any team or player regardless of matchup or skill level based on luck alone. In short, Swagger functions completely independently of skill and is extremely uncompetitive like Moody before it, so much so that I feel banning it in Ubers is not only warranted but necessary to preserve fair competition in the metagame.

tl;dr Swagger is stupid and it should be banned
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top