Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Salemance]

not worth commenting to if I cant put what I want in writing ATM

You are asking Focus Miss to hit twice, which is a 49% chance of happening. The odds are in the counter's favor, if only slightly. Also, they only have to hit with Stone Edge once at 80% versus that 49% chance you need. You still need perfect prediction to beat T-Tar, who has been known to run Scarf and can Pursuit trap you.


Zard X can just Dragon Dance, problem solved. This is also assuming Y predicts PERFECTLY again and doesn't miss with Focus Miss once. Again.


Hazard removal is not tedious when you're weak to one of the most common attacks in the game that makes you lose half your health and practically doubles the number of things that check you. Also, fun fact; Bisharp will always OHKO after SR without a boost or without SR with a Defiant boost.


Gary himself said he needs Pursuit trapping support to function since it gets rid of things that stop you otherwise.


Keldeo has Secret Sword and Scald so being Specs locked isn't a problem.
Terrakion still has less things that wall it than Zard Y, and can still deal with Offense.



Azumarill can force a fuck ton of switches and get off a Belly Drum or punish them with Knock Off, which is one of its standard Band moves.


A wallbreaker that cannot break an important wall is a shit wallbreaker.


The difference is they all can actually do something against Offense and have a smaller number of things that check them, making them easier to fit onto your team. Hitting hard doesn't make you good if you don't provide good team synergy or it's useless against a significant number of opponents.



Terrakion is more versatile than Zard Y like I said in my previous post and is easily higher than wherever Zard Y ends up.

Well as I said, Focus blast is shaky in all regards. I do not deny that relying on such a move proven to miss at the worst of times is a horribly option, but the fact you are able to have an option of being able to attack a foe with coverage move instead of being in the same mentality of "Oh look, I'll Fire Blast everything" was the main point I was more referring too since that is what many people think of when they go running into Char Y. Never said TTar was not known to run scarf, I'd be an enemy for dismissing it, but I referred to the fact that one can go with one coverage move to take out both of its supposed counters quite well if need be.

And Zard X Dragon Dancing is fine yah, but it needs to have started in then and not switched in like I said or else having to Roost that turn while you have hampered a sweeper greatly. They can both start against each other ya which Char X wins as it can D Dance, Roost on switch out, and etc. but I was stating it as a counter, meaning that it can switch in at the best of opportunities and always win when it cant.
EDIT: Then that is a situation to wear both sides need to be predicting expertly then, as the two can either win and or lose if it came down to it with Char X switching in as regular Char and taking the hit as its base form while then mega Evolving to Char X to D Dance and get hit again, putting it in the scenario or hit or roost. The entire scenario is getting even sillier now that you can factor in regular Char in, and the thing can become a prediction fest on both sides of the field to wear one can hypothetically do this and the other can do that. In the Offensive DDance set, it wins as I've said, but its bulk counter part not entirely so even if in the end it has a higher chance of winning out against Char Y than Y does it.

Hazard Removal is still not nearly as crushing as it can be thought of. Yes we are suppose to always debate as if this is the worst case scenario to where what if it was switching in and took this much damage from SR, but it can be mitigated to the point where it is not that much of a problem.

Okay, guess if Gary said it then it has to be true then.

Keld having a move that has an immunity to it is not a problem being locked in. Alright then. I still believe Terrakion is still on the same level as a Wall breaker and has just as many relevant counters as Zard Y and can be Revenge killed as easily even if not by the Bird of doom.

Yes I know knock off is a move run by most Azumarill and is able to give it some utility against some of its usual counters, but it still doesn't change the fact is can be punished just as well as it can punish others.

And Terrakion and Azumarill cant break Lando-T and Mega Venusaur respectively so they are obviously shitty wall breakers too right?

I cant say anything there to the point on checks and team synergy as it really is opinion to me.

Sure its versatile, but versatility isn't all im saying here. Due to how well the two perform as wall breakers, and with Terrakion's versatility as giving it the ability to do many other things, I believe the two fit in the same ranking as Char Y can arguably break more of the walls it can break than Terrakion can even if Char Y can break a fat blob.

EDIT 2: Sigh, looking back over my last post, I didn't even write correct sentences for the most part. I'm getting a little worked up over the topic of Char Y dropping that low and sleep tired. I do respect all of your points Karxrida , but I do think Char Y is A rank minimum and at least hope to articulate my thoughts better in the morning to have a proper argument then to where im not making myself look worse through the writing than the actual argument itself.

 

[Durant]

I would like to preface this saying that I do not think Charizard Y is bad, just outclassed.

Charizard Y for B+

Let us look at the A Rank definition and see how it applies to Zard Y.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

The first thing that pops out here is the phrase "sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame", which does not apply to Zard Y. It has many more counters than the other wallbreakers in the tier in Lati@s, Talonflame, Heatran, Garchomp, Charizard X, Chansey, and Dragonite and has way more checks than other wallbreakers. It is unable to sweep or wallbreak most of the tier. His massive amount of checks also mean it can't do its job more than once and is unable to threaten more than one Mon on your opponent's team.

The second thing that pops out is "require less support than most other to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be easily overlooked when compared to their positive traits". Charizard Y REQUIRES Hazard removal and a Pursuit trapper, which eats up 2 of your teamslots just to support a wallbreaker. Not a sweeper, but a wallbreaker who can only do its job one time before becoming dead or useless. It is also restrictive on its user's teambuilding because now you have to take in the possibility of Drought being active when you have your other Pokemon out, meaning you can't slap a Water-type or Fire weak/neutral Pokemon on your team without possible repercussions. This is extremely inefficient.

"But that can't be your only reason to drop Zard Y," you may say. "It hits hard as fuck and nobody can do what it does."

Actually, there are several Pokemon that already do its job. And they are way better.

• Landorus-I
• Keldeo
• Kyurem-B
• Azumarill
• Terrakion

First of all, none of these bar Kyurem-B are weak to SR (Keldeo and Terrakion resist), meaning they can switch in freely and often.

Secondly, all of them have ways of fucking over a switch without much prediction. Lando can Knock Off, U-Turn, or Calm Mind, Keldeo can potentially get a Scald burn, Kyurem-B can set up a Sub and proceed to potentially wreck your opponent, Azumarill can Knock Off or Belly Drum, and Terrakion can use Swords Dance, Sub, Taunt, Rock Polish, or even Stealth Rock. Zard Y needs to predict perfectly otherwise a check comes in and you're immediately forced out while potentially giving your opponent a free Dragon Dance/Swords Dance/Whatever.

Thirdly, none of them require the level of team support that Zard Y does; since the list of things they want dead is small compared to Zard Y. Lando actually doesn't need anything dead as long as it is in front of something that it threatens the fuck out of and lets it start U-Turning/Knock Offing, Keldeo only needs the Latis gone, Kyurem-B only needs Chansey dead (or can kill her itself depending on the set Kube is running) when against Stall or anything faster than it that has super effective moves, Azumarill is only troubled by Mega Venusaur and Amoongus (who are dealt with similarly), and Terrakion is only really walled by Skarmory, Lando-T, Gliscor, and Aegislash without an Air Balloon. What does Zard Y need dead? Thundurus, Landorus, Bisharp/Keldeo/Azumarill/Deoxys-S if you can't get rid of SR for whatever reason, Garchomp, other Charizards (mainly X), Tyranitar, Heatran, Chansey, Talonflame, Deoxys-S, the Latis, Scarf Excadrill, Politoed, and Dragonite. Wow, that list is long.

Fourthly, none of these Mons are one dimensional (barring Keldeo, who is still hard to deal with thanks to Secret Sword). Landorus can be a Pivot, offensive SR setter, Calm Mind sweeper, and has several coverage options in Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Earth Power, and Psychic to go along with U-Turn or Knock Off. Kyurem-B can run Physical Scarf or Life Orb, Azumarill can Revenge Kill AND sweep, and Terrakion can sweep, set up SR, Revenge Kill, or even anti-lead. Zard Y has literally one set with massive 4MSS. You need Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Roost, but have to choose between beating Tyranitar (Focus Blast), beating Heatran (Earthquake), maybe beating the Latis (Dragon Pulse), or going kamikaze to get rid of Chansey (Flare Blitz lolololol).

Fifthly, these Mons do not have trouble with offensive teams like Zard Y. They have the bulk, power, speed, resistances, coverage, and/or priority to actually threaten many offensive Mons. Zard Y? It's stuck at unboosted Base 100 with no priority, Fire/Grass coverage that cannot be boosted and is easily walled, and has 3 common weaknesses in Rock, Electric, and Water.

Finally, none of them need Chansey dead to do their job and can actually fuck her hard. This is the main reason why Zard Y is outclassed, because it is a wallbreaker that cannot break the most common and important wall in the game and has trouble with Stall in general. Landorous has Knock Off, U-Turn, and Calm Mind + Focus Blast to muscle past it, Keldeo just murders you, Azumarill also has Knock off and has been known to run Superpower, and Terrakion can just set up in front of you. The only thing in my list that has trouble with Chansey is Kyurem-B, who can still win depending on the set and fucks Stall over as soon as it gets a Sub up while Zard Y still struggles against several Stall staples such as Heatran, Zard X, and Mega Venusaur (who can stall out the Sun thanks to it boosting Synthesis' recovery).


Onto the B Rank definition.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

Charizard Y fits this perfectly. It is powerful, but flawed and needs support to do its job. You can't slap it on a team like pretty much everything else in the A and S ranks, you have to build your team around it.

TL;DR
Zard Y is outclassed and needs too much support to be considered anywhere A rank; drop it to B+.

I await your hate.

Yes I have to agree with this all. Also seeing as how other wallbreakers like Mega Medicham and Mega Gardevoir are also in B+ he fits in there nicely. Charizard Y is still a great Pokemon but the flaws you mentioned make me think B+ is good for it.

 

[Karxrida]

not worth commenting to if I cant put what I want in writing ATM

Well as I said, Focus blast is shaky in all regards. I do not deny that relying on such a move proven to miss at the worst of times is a horribly option, but the fact you are able to have an option of being able to attack a foe with coverage move instead of being in the same mentality of "Oh look, I'll Fire Blast everything" was the main point I was more referring too since that is what many people think of when they go running into Char Y. Never said TTar was not known to run scarf, I'd be an enemy for dismissing it, but I referred to the fact that one can go with one coverage move to take out both of its supposed counters quite well if need be.

And Zard X Dragon Dancing is fine yah, but it needs to have started in then and not switched in like I said or else having to Roost that turn while you have hampered a sweeper greatly. They can both start against each other ya which Char X wins as it can D Dance, Roost on switch out, and etc. but I was stating it as a counter, meaning that it can switch in at the best of opportunities and always win when it cant.
EDIT: Then that is a situation to wear both sides need to be predicting expertly then, as the two can either win and or lose if it came down to it with Char X switching in as regular Char and taking the hit as its base form while then mega Evolving to Char X to D Dance and get hit again, putting it in the scenario or hit or roost. The entire scenario is getting even sillier now that you can factor in regular Char in, and the thing can become a prediction fest on both sides of the field to wear one can hypothetically do this and the other can do that. In the Offensive DDance set, it wins as I've said, but its bulk counter part not entirely so even if in the end it has a higher chance of winning out against Char Y than Y does it.

Hazard Removal is still not nearly as crushing as it can be thought of. Yes we are suppose to always debate as if this is the worst case scenario to where what if it was switching in and took this much damage from SR, but it can be mitigated to the point where it is not that much of a problem.

Okay, guess if Gary said it then it has to be true then.

Keld having a move that has an immunity to it is not a problem being locked in. Alright then. I still believe Terrakion is still on the same level as a Wall breaker and has just as many relevant counters as Zard Y and can be Revenge killed as easily even if not by the Bird of doom.

Yes I know knock off is a move run by most Azumarill and is able to give it some utility against some of its usual counters, but it still doesn't change the fact is can be punished just as well as it can punish others.

And Terrakion and Azumarill cant break Lando-T and Mega Venusaur respectively so they are obviously shitty wall breakers too right?

I cant say anything there to the point on checks and team synergy as it really is opinion to me.

Sure its versatile, but versatility isn't all im saying here. Due to how well the two perform as wall breakers, and with Terrakion's versatility as giving it the ability to do many other things, I believe the two fit in the same ranking as Char Y can arguably break more of the walls it can break than Terrakion can even if Char Y can break a fat blob.

EDIT 2: Sigh, looking back over my last post, I didn't even write correct sentences for the most part. I'm getting a little worked up over the topic of Char Y dropping that low and sleep tired. I do respect all of your points Karxrida , but I do think Char Y is A rank minimum and at least hope to articulate my thoughts better in the morning to have a proper argument then to where im not making myself look worse through the writing than the actual argument itself.

About Focus Blast and Zard X
The point I'm trying to make is that Zard Y is not consistent at beating the things it runs coverage for due to reliance on prediction (you mispredict and you're almost always forced to switch out, hence the Hazard removal being important) and Focus Miss.

About Pursuit Trapping
Please tell me you're not being sarcastic here X_X

About Keldeo
The only common things that are immune to Secret Sword, Gengar and Aegislash, do not want to switch into a Keldeo that just came in. I will concede to the fact that locking yourself into your move is not ideal.

About Walls
The difference is that Mega Venusaur isn't as prevalent on Stall as it used to be and Azumarill can sweep through a significant amount of the metagame, making the team support to remove the few things that do stop it more justified. Chansey is mandatory on Stall, while Lando-T and Mega Venusaur are not mandatory on any playstyle (at least they weren't last time I checked) and thus not as important when considering how good Azumarill/Terrakion are at wallbreaking.

About Versatility
The more viable options a Mon has, the more difficult it becomes to check/counter without knowing its entire moveset. Mons like Mega Pinsir are powerful but their lack of options means they have hard counters, while stuff like Lando-I and Charizard X are difficult to counter because they have several possible moves they could be running that you won't know about until it's too late.

 

[Baharoth]

I would like to preface this saying that I do not think Charizard Y is bad, just outclassed.

Charizard Y for B+

Let us look at the A Rank definition and see how it applies to Zard Y.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

The first thing that pops out here is the phrase "sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame", which does not apply to Zard Y. It has many more counters than the other wallbreakers in the tier in Lati@s, Talonflame, Heatran, Garchomp, Charizard X, Chansey, and Dragonite and has way more checks than other wallbreakers. It is unable to sweep or wallbreak most of the tier. His massive amount of checks also mean it can't do its job more than once and is unable to threaten more than one Mon on your opponent's team.

The second thing that pops out is "require less support than most other to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be easily overlooked when compared to their positive traits". Charizard Y REQUIRES Hazard removal and a Pursuit trapper, which eats up 2 of your teamslots just to support a wallbreaker. Not a sweeper, but a wallbreaker who can only do its job one time before becoming dead or useless. It is also restrictive on its user's teambuilding because now you have to take in the possibility of Drought being active when you have your other Pokemon out, meaning you can't slap a Water-type or Fire weak/neutral Pokemon on your team without possible repercussions. This is extremely inefficient.

"But that can't be your only reason to drop Zard Y," you may say. "It hits hard as fuck and nobody can do what it does."

Actually, there are several Pokemon that already do its job. And they are way better.

• Landorus-I
• Keldeo
• Kyurem-B
• Azumarill
• Terrakion

First of all, none of these bar Kyurem-B are weak to SR (Keldeo and Terrakion resist), meaning they can switch in freely and often.

Secondly, all of them have ways of fucking over a switch without much prediction. Lando can Knock Off, U-Turn, or Calm Mind, Keldeo can potentially get a Scald burn, Kyurem-B can set up a Sub and proceed to potentially wreck your opponent, Azumarill can Knock Off or Belly Drum, and Terrakion can use Swords Dance, Sub, Taunt, Rock Polish, or even Stealth Rock. Zard Y needs to predict perfectly otherwise a check comes in and you're immediately forced out while potentially giving your opponent a free Dragon Dance/Swords Dance/Whatever.

Thirdly, none of them require the level of team support that Zard Y does; since the list of things they want dead is small compared to Zard Y. Lando actually doesn't need anything dead as long as it is in front of something that it threatens the fuck out of and lets it start U-Turning/Knock Offing, Keldeo only needs the Latis gone, Kyurem-B only needs Chansey dead (or can kill her itself depending on the set Kube is running) when against Stall or anything faster than it that has super effective moves, Azumarill is only troubled by Mega Venusaur and Amoongus (who are dealt with similarly), and Terrakion is only really walled by Skarmory, Lando-T, Gliscor, and Aegislash without an Air Balloon. What does Zard Y need dead? Thundurus, Landorus, Bisharp/Keldeo/Azumarill/Deoxys-S if you can't get rid of SR for whatever reason, Garchomp, other Charizards (mainly X), Tyranitar, Heatran, Chansey, Talonflame, Deoxys-S, the Latis, Scarf Excadrill, Politoed, and Dragonite. Wow, that list is long.

Fourthly, none of these Mons are one dimensional (barring Keldeo, who is still hard to deal with thanks to Secret Sword). Landorus can be a Pivot, offensive SR setter, Calm Mind sweeper, and has several coverage options in Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Earth Power, and Psychic to go along with U-Turn or Knock Off. Kyurem-B can run Physical Scarf or Life Orb, Azumarill can Revenge Kill AND sweep, and Terrakion can sweep, set up SR, Revenge Kill, or even anti-lead. Zard Y has literally one set with massive 4MSS. You need Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Roost, but have to choose between beating Tyranitar (Focus Blast), beating Heatran (Earthquake), maybe beating the Latis (Dragon Pulse), or going kamikaze to get rid of Chansey (Flare Blitz lolololol).

Fifthly, these Mons do not have trouble with offensive teams like Zard Y. They have the bulk, power, speed, resistances, coverage, and/or priority to actually threaten many offensive Mons. Zard Y? It's stuck at unboosted Base 100 with no priority, Fire/Grass coverage that cannot be boosted and is easily walled, and has 3 common weaknesses in Rock, Electric, and Water.

Finally, none of them need Chansey dead to do their job and can actually fuck her hard. This is the main reason why Zard Y is outclassed, because it is a wallbreaker that cannot break the most common and important wall in the game and has trouble with Stall in general. Landorous has Knock Off, U-Turn, and Calm Mind + Focus Blast to muscle past it, Keldeo just murders you, Azumarill also has Knock off and has been known to run Superpower, and Terrakion can just set up in front of you. The only thing in my list that has trouble with Chansey is Kyurem-B, who can still win depending on the set and fucks Stall over as soon as it gets a Sub up while Zard Y still struggles against several Stall staples such as Heatran, Zard X, and Mega Venusaur (who can stall out the Sun thanks to it boosting Synthesis' recovery).


Onto the B Rank definition.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

Charizard Y fits this perfectly. It is powerful, but flawed and needs support to do its job. You can't slap it on a team like pretty much everything else in the A and S ranks, you have to build your team around it.

TL;DR
Zard Y is outclassed and needs too much support to be considered anywhere A rank; drop it to B+.

I await your hate.

1. Just because wallbreaking isnt mentioned as a role in the description that doesnt mean that you cant be A+ because of that role.

2. Latis, Zard X, Chansey and Dragonite are the only real counters to Zard Y. Garchomp can only switch in once due to its lack of recovery, Talonflame cant switch in at all with rocks up and spd Heatran gets murdered by EQ and Focusblast not to mention that Stone Edge is not a common move on Heatran meaning that most of the Heatrans you will face cant do anything about Zard Y. Seeing that there are only 5 mons that can stop it reliably it DOES wallbreak most of the tier. Even more considering that all of these counters can be dealt with by TTar who makes a perfect teammate for Zard Y.
Saying that it has way more checks than other wallbreakers is also wrong as most of the things that can stop Zard also stop Landorus, Zard X beeing the exeption. Everything faster can take out both of them with ease and things like Garchomp can also switch into Lando without trouble. And unlike Lando Zard doesnt need 6 moveslots to cover everything it possibly can. It also has better special bulk and recovery, saying its outclassed is just plain wrong. The only things Lando has over it is his ability to cripple Chansey and the fact that it doesnt need a mega slot

3. Hazard removal is on EVERY team, no matter if it runs Zard Y or not, yes it needs that removal more than some others but its not like you have to go out of your way in terms of support, futhermore, there is another guy with 4x SR weakness in the A+ ranks and plenty of the A and S ranks are weak to rocks. And what makes you think that Zard can do his job only once? If you dont know the concept of switching out in front of a revenge killer or check thats sad but most people do so thats hardly an issue.

4. Keldeo is choice locked most of the time so its not all that good at wallbreaking and the LO set jeopardizes its bulk, Azu sucks at wallbreaking, the CB set can barely break Chansey and will never get past common walls like Venu, Amoonguss or Skarmory. Kyub is walled by Chansey unless it runs LO Outrage which can be countered easily by switching into Skarm or clef after it locked itself in, its also worn down very fast unless its running roost and that limits its coverage. Terrakion has the same issue as Keldeo, it needs a Band to wallbreak making it easy to counter.

5. Charizard doesnt need ANY prediction against switches as almost everything thats not Chansey or Heatran takes about 50% from Fire Blast, thats its big selling point over things like Lando. The best thing lando can do is Uturn/Knock off which maintains momentum/annoys its switch in but thats it. Its stab has to be used with caution as it gives a free switch to almost all of its checks and counters and its coverage moves are pathetic when not SE compared to Zards Fire Blast. And all of the mons you mention have to switch out once a check comes in, thats the nature of the game, but non of them can deal ~50% to almost everything without any prediction.

6. Do you realy want to tell us that Thundurus cant stop Landorus, Keldeo, Terrakion and Azumarill? For Zard Y your using things that can revengekill it such as Thundurus but the others only need their counters gone? And as mentioned before, most of the things that can switch into Zard can also switch into Lando and Keldeo as all three have very similar counters (Latis, Dragonite, Chansey to an degree)

7. So Lando doesnt struggle as much against offense as Zard Y does? What pokemon exactly do you have in mind that can stop Zard but not Lando? Thundurus, Keldeo, Dragonite, Latis, Garchomp, Azu, Talonflame... its just one point of speed between them, everything that can check/revengekill Zard will deal with Lando just as well, same is true for Keldeo, Terra and Azumarill though these 3 are far easier to deal with than Zard or Lando.

8. Lando can knock off Chansey, fine. But Chansey will still be alive after that and can still wall Lando with ease as Focus Miss barely 2hkoes so Chansey can just PP stall with Softboiled. The others may have a way to deal with Chansey (kyub aside) but they all have their own issues, Skarm for Terra and Azu, Amoonguss and Venu for Keldeo and these things are just as common on stall as Chansey is.

9. "You have to built your team around it" Yeah, because hazard support is such a rare sight on teams... Pursuit/TTar is ofc a good thing but its not mandatory, Zard will still fuck up a good deal of the meta and TTar is nothing more but a way to deal with its counters, something that every pokemon needs. The difference here is that TTar can deal with ALL of ZardYs counters so you need just one slot for that.

Honestly have you ever tried using Zard Y ingame or are you just talking out of your ass to make it look bad somehow? Most of your arguments are biased or outright wrong.

 

[boo118]

I would like to preface this saying that I do not think Charizard Y is bad, just outclassed.

Charizard Y for B+

Let us look at the A Rank definition and see how it applies to Zard Y.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

The first thing that pops out here is the phrase "sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame", which does not apply to Zard Y. It has many more counters than the other wallbreakers in the tier in Lati@s, Talonflame, Heatran, Garchomp, Charizard X, Chansey, and Dragonite and has way more checks than other wallbreakers. It is unable to sweep or wallbreak most of the tier. His massive amount of checks also mean it can't do its job more than once and is unable to threaten more than one Mon on your opponent's team.

The second thing that pops out is "require less support than most other to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be easily overlooked when compared to their positive traits". Charizard Y REQUIRES Hazard removal and a Pursuit trapper, which eats up 2 of your teamslots just to support a wallbreaker. Not a sweeper, but a wallbreaker who can only do its job one time before becoming dead or useless. It is also restrictive on its user's teambuilding because now you have to take in the possibility of Drought being active when you have your other Pokemon out, meaning you can't slap a Water-type or Fire weak/neutral Pokemon on your team without possible repercussions. This is extremely inefficient.

"But that can't be your only reason to drop Zard Y," you may say. "It hits hard as fuck and nobody can do what it does."

Actually, there are several Pokemon that already do its job. And they are way better.

• Landorus-I
• Keldeo
• Kyurem-B
• Azumarill
• Terrakion

First of all, none of these bar Kyurem-B are weak to SR (Keldeo and Terrakion resist), meaning they can switch in freely and often.

Secondly, all of them have ways of fucking over a switch without much prediction. Lando can Knock Off, U-Turn, or Calm Mind, Keldeo can potentially get a Scald burn, Kyurem-B can set up a Sub and proceed to potentially wreck your opponent, Azumarill can Knock Off or Belly Drum, and Terrakion can use Swords Dance, Sub, Taunt, Rock Polish, or even Stealth Rock. Zard Y needs to predict perfectly otherwise a check comes in and you're immediately forced out while potentially giving your opponent a free Dragon Dance/Swords Dance/Whatever.

Thirdly, none of them require the level of team support that Zard Y does; since the list of things they want dead is small compared to Zard Y. Lando actually doesn't need anything dead as long as it is in front of something that it threatens the fuck out of and lets it start U-Turning/Knock Offing, Keldeo only needs the Latis gone, Kyurem-B only needs Chansey dead (or can kill her itself depending on the set Kube is running) when against Stall or anything faster than it that has super effective moves, Azumarill is only troubled by Mega Venusaur and Amoongus (who are dealt with similarly), and Terrakion is only really walled by Skarmory, Lando-T, Gliscor, and Aegislash without an Air Balloon. What does Zard Y need dead? Thundurus, Landorus, Bisharp/Keldeo/Azumarill/Deoxys-S if you can't get rid of SR for whatever reason, Garchomp, other Charizards (mainly X), Tyranitar, Heatran, Chansey, Talonflame, Deoxys-S, the Latis, Scarf Excadrill, Politoed, and Dragonite. Wow, that list is long.

Fourthly, none of these Mons are one dimensional (barring Keldeo, who is still hard to deal with thanks to Secret Sword). Landorus can be a Pivot, offensive SR setter, Calm Mind sweeper, and has several coverage options in Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Earth Power, and Psychic to go along with U-Turn or Knock Off. Kyurem-B can run Physical Scarf or Life Orb, Azumarill can Revenge Kill AND sweep, and Terrakion can sweep, set up SR, Revenge Kill, or even anti-lead. Zard Y has literally one set with massive 4MSS. You need Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Roost, but have to choose between beating Tyranitar (Focus Blast), beating Heatran (Earthquake), maybe beating the Latis (Dragon Pulse), or going kamikaze to get rid of Chansey (Flare Blitz lolololol).

Fifthly, these Mons do not have trouble with offensive teams like Zard Y. They have the bulk, power, speed, resistances, coverage, and/or priority to actually threaten many offensive Mons. Zard Y? It's stuck at unboosted Base 100 with no priority, Fire/Grass coverage that cannot be boosted and is easily walled, and has 3 common weaknesses in Rock, Electric, and Water.

Finally, none of them need Chansey dead to do their job and can actually fuck her hard. This is the main reason why Zard Y is outclassed, because it is a wallbreaker that cannot break the most common and important wall in the game and has trouble with Stall in general. Landorous has Knock Off, U-Turn, and Calm Mind + Focus Blast to muscle past it, Keldeo just murders you, Azumarill also has Knock off and has been known to run Superpower, and Terrakion can just set up in front of you. The only thing in my list that has trouble with Chansey is Kyurem-B, who can still win depending on the set and fucks Stall over as soon as it gets a Sub up while Zard Y still struggles against several Stall staples such as Heatran, Zard X, and Mega Venusaur (who can stall out the Sun thanks to it boosting Synthesis' recovery).


Onto the B Rank definition.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

Charizard Y fits this perfectly. It is powerful, but flawed and needs support to do its job. You can't slap it on a team like pretty much everything else in the A and S ranks, you have to build your team around it.

TL;DR
Zard Y is outclassed and needs too much support to be considered anywhere A rank; drop it to B+.

I await your hate.

It is a shame that such a great mon has been suggested for B. Nevertheless, i will have to counter argument to this.

OK, first of all, zard y's niche is that it is a wall breaker, if you are staying in on a talon flame with a zard y, then you have little to zero chance of winning that match in general.
Secondly, lets bring up some calcs barring the other mons on your list.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 210-248 (54.4 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery There goes the heatran that walls it
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 408-480 (119.2 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO there goes the ttar
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 144-171 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO Latios doesnt usually carry recovery anyway
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 2hko after rocks, latias doesnt carry recover/roost usually, either.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Yes, i used solar beam and the sun in this example. Reason being is that you should be able to use a filler move in the switch into a politoad, then mega up and solar beam. Ofc, this is all theory, but usually works in practice.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur in Sun: 270-318 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Mega venu is hardly a 'check'. As it gets 2hko'd so can't exactly switch in. and if you are weird enough to run spdef venu 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur in Sun: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in Sun: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- 97.8% chance to 4HKO Forgot to put in the d nite calc. It hits that much on the switch and
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite in Sun: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO that stock, so a pretty decent chunk as soon as multi scale is broken. You have to also take in the fact that roost/lefties bulky d nite has gone out of fashion, so being able to get its multi scale back is pretty rare.
So thats possibly all of you so called 'checks' bar one being neutered, which is pretty damn good if you ask me.
When you talk about the other mons. Lando i - gets walled by balloon aegi, spdef rotom (unless gravity set which you did not mention), d nite. And can be revenged killed by talon, garchomp, keldeo, etc. Keldeo gets walled by mega venu (252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO). Also gets walled by def rotom, spdef aegi, some more that i can't think of atm. Furthermore, gets revenged by talon, scarf chomp, mega manectric. It also is choiced into a certain move. So it is completely viable to sack a mon, say to stealth rocks, then bring in a suitable counter that keldeo is choice locked into. Obvious not all keldeo's are specs, but the majority are. Kyurem B is a very good stall breaker and is extremely hard to wall, but get revenged by many offensive mons due to its speed being sub 100.
Our friend zard y can easily do this job 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-B in Sun: 382-450 (97.6 - 115%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO. As well as talon, scarf chomp. Onto azumarill, that too gets walled by mega saur, rotom w to a certain extent ferro thorn, if it isn't banded with superpower. (252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 284-336 (80.6 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery) still doesnt kill tbh. Terrakion is a very good mon imo, as it can be an extremely good choiced mon, banded or scarf. However, it gets revenged by the usual mons, scarf chomp, talon flame, and gets walled by lando t (one of the most common def walls). Im not trying to say that these mons should be demoted viability wise, what i am trying to say, is that every mon has their faults and can't beat every single poke. You put a huge stress on chansey. Which is 1 mon, and is (| 28 | Chansey | 7.855%) via usage statistics
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-june-2014.3508291/. Meaning that you will not come across a chansey for over 92% of the time. Basically meaning that zard y will not be completely walled 92% of the time. You have to realise, that when you come across a chasey, the opposing player will be forced to keep chansey at a reasonable amount. Otherwise zard y can just come in and nuke one mon at a time. Sure there are stops to zard y, and it does need support. But to do its primal job, break walls for others to exploit, it does do a damn good job.
The problem of SR is tricky, because you will need to make sure that SR doesnt stay on your side for long, so that you have optimum time nuking the opposing mons with 110 STAB in the sun fire blasts. However, considering how omnipotent defog is and the usual mons that work great with zard y. Being ttar, therefore excadrill, which is probably the best spinner in the tier, i don't think it would be particularly hard to get rid of SR. what people also forget, is the fact that zard y takes on one of the best revenge killers in the tier, being greninja. 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 174-205 (58.3 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Overall, i do not think zard y should move down so drastically to B+. Possibly A-, but it definitely is a great support in any team and is only outclassed by a few, if any, mons.

I shall enjoy reading your reply :)

 

[Nog]

Charizard Y for B+

TL;DR
Zard Y is outclassed and needs too much support to be considered anywhere A rank; drop it to B+.

I await your hate.

I admire your courage and can do attitude friend. In the same vein I would like to say you are wrong, terribly wrong, and I encourage you to learn more about the meta or just stop posting y/n? Charizard Y is nowhere near dropping to B rank and for good reason. It has decent speed, a great ability, solid special attack and a good move pool (not too many moves but all find their use). It's wall breaking potential is strong af and the only team support it requires is hazard control and a trapper which most good HO teams carry anyway. You don't have to go out of your way to support it and if you don't have a check to Chansey on offense you're a terrible team builder. The only Pokemon you compared Mega Char Y to that is actually comparable is Keldeo because they are special wall breakers that appreciate the trapping team support and are more often than not ran on the same team. Azumarill is either a set up sweeper or a physical wall breaker and if you are using physical Mega Char Y, stop posting as you probably have nothing relevant to say. Landorus and Kyurem-b are stall breakers and what they can handle depends on their move set for that team as opposed to Mega Charizard Y who literally runs the same four moves because they are the best.

The counters you listed are a bit odd as well considering under normal circumstances you have to be able to swap into p much any move reliably and either KO it first or force it out. Talonflame can't reliably swap in if rocks are up (falls under normal circumstances btw) and the banded set has no recovery so you would KO both meaning = check. Heatran takes around 60% from Focus Blast so not sure how that's a counter either. Clean 2HKO when factoring in Leftovers recovery and Stealth Rocks. Latios takes a solid 40% from Fire Blast in the sun, with SR and some prior damage it can be 2HKO. Obviously you would not stay in as Char Y, but if you have 80% HP or above you can live a a Psyshock and KO back with Fire Blast assuming you hit. And of course there is the off chance of Dragon Pulse which fucks half that list but then you are walled by Heatran. Decisions decisions. Your second point makes 0 sense tbh. "Hey my Keldeo can burn Mega Venusaur so it doesn't counter, hey my Landorus can Calm Mind on a switch so Chansey doesn't counter" and you saying that like Char Y #can't get hax as well. Fire Blast can't burn right? Focus Blast can't get the SDef drop right? Nice logic, 10/10 post man. Your abundant courage allows me to overlook your limited knowledge. Good job

EDIT: whoops didn't realize there was another page of replies in which everyone in their mother said the same thing, smh

 

[Flamer]

I admire your courage and can do attitude friend. In the same vein I would like to say you are wrong, terribly wrong, and I encourage you to learn more about the meta or just stop posting y/n? Charizard Y is nowhere near dropping to B rank and for good reason. It has decent speed, a great ability, solid special attack and a good move pool (not too many moves but all find their use). It's wall breaking potential is strong af and the only team support it requires is hazard control and a trapper which most good HO teams carry anyway. You don't have to go out of your way to support it and if you don't have a check to Chansey on offense you're a terrible team builder. The only Pokemon you compared Mega Char Y to that is actually comparable is Keldeo because they are special wall breakers that appreciate the trapping team support and are more often than not ran on the same team. Azumarill is either a set up sweeper or a physical wall breaker and if you are using physical Mega Char Y, stop posting as you probably have nothing relevant to say. Landorus and Kyurem-b are stall breakers and what they can handle depends on their move set for that team as opposed to Mega Charizard Y who literally runs the same four moves because they are the best.

The counters you listed are a bit odd as well considering under normal circumstances you have to be able to swap into p much any move reliably and either KO it first or force it out. Talonflame can't reliably swap in if rocks are up (falls under normal circumstances btw) and the banded set has no recovery so you would KO both meaning = check. Heatran takes around 60% from Focus Blast so not sure how that's a counter either. Clean 2HKO when factoring in Leftovers recovery and Stealth Rocks. Latios takes a solid 40% from Fire Blast in the sun, with SR and some prior damage it can be 2HKO. Obviously you would not stay in as Char Y, but if you have 80% HP or above you can live a a Psyshock and KO back with Fire Blast assuming you hit. And of course there is the off chance of Dragon Pulse which fucks half that list but then you are walled by Heatran. Decisions decisions. Your second point makes 0 sense tbh. "Hey my Keldeo can burn Mega Venusaur so it doesn't counter, hey my Landorus can Calm Mind on a switch so Chansey doesn't counter" and you saying that like Char Y #can't get hax as well. Fire Blast can't burn right? Focus Blast can't get the SDef drop right? Nice logic, 10/10 post man. Your abundant courage allows me to overlook your limited knowledge. Good job

EDIT: whoops didn't realize there was another page of replies in which everyone in their mother said the same thing, smh

I think your overdoing it a bit here, sure Zard Y has a lot of pros but honestly it boils down to the mega slot, speed tier and overall effectiveness. Zard Y uses a sometimes vital Mega slot that could be used on a more unique and dangerous mega, exists in a crowded speed tier with no effective way to boost its speed (don't anyone dare say something like Flame Charge or Tailwind) as well as being outsped and KOed by a myriad of offensive mons, and can only break one mon on offense if you mispedict the mega before being forced out, compared to Zard X, who can and will wreck if given any leeway. This wasn't even mentioning a crippling SR weakness, which affects it more than many other SR weak mons due to the need to switch because of its many checks. I know "but hazard control is easier now", but just by the mere presence of SR on the field you're neutralising Zard Y's power, forcing him to accommodate lest he cripple what could be a crucial mon, while you rack up damage on the rest of his team. While I don't think Zard Y should drop all the way down to B+, it is getting less and less effective as time progresses, A or A- is where I think it deserves to be until the metagame becomes less hostile to it.

 

[Jukain]

Alright, everyone's taking this too far. There's no way Char Y is below A. It's still really threatening and difficult to deal with. Look at this replay:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-12000

Here, Bloo uses a Char Y team, and you can easily see Char Y putting in work, despite two of the better ways of dealing with it (Latias and Tyranitar) on the opposing team. Despite having a lot of checks, it forces many balanced and even offensive teams into a difficult position, where they basically have to make switch-ins based on predicted attacks and can easily be nailed if they don't have a Lati. Although it does have a bunch of checks, especially on the revenge killing side of things, Char Y still stands out as very difficult to deal with, especially in the right team that sets the stage for it. The Char Y team is an archetype on its own, and you can see it teams like Bloo's, teams like the one by Valentine that was archived, that these teams can be absolutely devastating if used well.

And everything Nog said~

 

[Cinco Swift]

Okay now this is insane. I don't see how you guys are arguing Diggersby to A and saying Heliolisk isn't even viable when Diggersby isn't even that much better than Heliolisk! Diggersbys defenses are just as bad, he's slower, and doesn't have a water immunity! However both of them hit hard and gain momentum for your team. Diggersby just hits a little harder and has quick attack and swords dance and agility allowing him to use boosting sets. Heliolisk on the other hand is faster and doesn't need to boost his speed to hit fast and hard. He does it right off the bat.

 

[Skankovich]

Diggersby hits faaaarrrrr harder than Heliolisk, he hits 464 attk while heliolisk hits 348 spattk at most.

Idk much about ou but I could only see heliolisk getting use in a sun team or something.

 

[Palpitoad707]

Okay now this is insane. I don't see how you guys are arguing Diggersby to A and saying Heliolisk isn't even viable when Diggersby isn't even that much better than Heliolisk! Diggersbys defenses are just as bad, he's slower, and doesn't have a water immunity! However both of them hit hard and gain momentum for your team. Diggersby just hits a little harder and has quick attack and swords dance and agility allowing him to use boosting sets. Heliolisk on the other hand is faster and doesn't need to boost his speed to hit fast and hard. He does it right off the bat.

Saying that Diggersby hits "a little harder" is a huge understatement. Thanks to Huge Power, it hits stupidly hard. SD can easily break stall, and Quick Attack at +2 can pick off many offensive threats after a bit of prior damage, like Latios or Greninja. Heliolisk is completely and utterly outclassed as a pivot by Mega Manectric. Mega Manectric has more useful and reliable coverage (Overheat > Focus Blast), a better ability (Intimidate works usually), and is one of the fast things in the meta. Also, why are you even comparing Diggersby and Heliolisk? They have completely different roles!

 

[theV8man]

Okay now this is insane. I don't see how you guys are arguing Diggersby to A and saying Heliolisk isn't even viable when Diggersby isn't even that much better than Heliolisk! Diggersbys defenses are just as bad, he's slower, and doesn't have a water immunity! However both of them hit hard and gain momentum for your team. Diggersby just hits a little harder and has quick attack and swords dance and agility allowing him to use boosting sets. Heliolisk on the other hand is faster and doesn't need to boost his speed to hit fast and hard. He does it right off the bat.

Diggersby is a lot better than Heliolisk. I don't even see why you're comparing these two things seeing as they both do different stuff. Heliolisk is literally a worse Raikou or Rotom-W, gaining momentum through Volt Switch, while Diggersby wallbreaks or sweeps. Oh no what is this? Diggersby doesn't have a water immunity! Well Heliolisk doesn't have a Electric or Ghost immunity if were arguing about this! Heliolisk has 109 Spa. Diggersby has the equivalent of >160 Atk. I believe this is a notable difference in power. Also, Diggersby's quick attack makes up for speed, KO'ing stuff like Latios, Greninja after a SD.

 

[Skankovich]

A few things though, heliolisk probably has better coverage than manectric as it gets grass knot and surf, so it doesn't have to use hp whatver for grounds. And it is actually immune to ghost :p

 

[QuickBH]

Guys can we just blacklist Heliolisk please? This is getting really ridiculous.

 

[Srn]

I know the % that EQ does to Tran, no need to bring it up. Stone Edge and Ancient Power are actually quite viable in average-high level matches due to the ability to hit both Talonflame and ZardY, who you can comfortably wall. The thing is that ZardY has an extreme case of 4mss, if it runs EQ, it can do something to Tran, but loses to others because it has to give up a different coverage move.

Physical ZardY is really sub-par. You run Flare Blitz to beat Chansey, but you die to recoil in the process, not to mention that Chansey can Softboil stall your precious HP.

Long story short, ZardY is pretty outclassed by top tier wallbreakers like Lando-I and Specs Keld, who have superior coverage (well Keldeo doesn't really but Secret Sword is an amazing peice of utility), are not SR weak, have bery few concrete counters, and have superior speed tiers to beat the crowded as fuck base 100 club. I'm not and no one else, including Karxrida, actually want it to drop to the depths of C, its still pretty good, but A+ is overselling. IMO A or A- is the place to be.

Char-y has extreme case of 4mss hello? Where the hell did you pull that shit out of?
Fire/Grass coverage hits everything except dragons, tran, talon, and tar, and focus blast hits tar and tran. Seeing as how roost>dragon pulse by far, and that dragon pulse is total shit anyway, I really don't understand what you're trying to say. Sure, without dragon pulse, its hard walled by char-x, but as for the others....
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 144-171 (47.6 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite in Sun: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame in Sun: 212-250 (71.1 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not to mention that from full health, char-y can take an LO draco from latios and roost right back up, thus forcing it out.
So without dragon pulse you lose out on hitting char-x, and with roost you tremendously increase your survivability and win TONS more 1v1 matchups. Js that when you have "an extreme case of 4mss," usually both of your options are just as good. Clearly, roost>>>>>>>>>>>>dragon pulse, so its not really even 4mss, much less "an extreme case" of it.

Comparing specs keld to char-y tho for real. Specs keld is so ridiculously easy to check its not even funny. Water/Fight stab could be walled by fucking eviolite gloom for all I care.
252 SpA Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Eviolite Gloom: 92-110 (28.3 - 33.9%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO
Meanwhile, the only real answer to char-y on some stall teams out there is chansey and char-x. Even offense can pretty easily check keldeo by running latias, talon, offensive mega venu, mega gyara (not mega'd yet ofc), dnite, you get the point.
And i can agree that lando does not have a lot of concrete counters ( <3 sp. def gyara) but are you seriously tellin me that keldeo has very few concrete counters. The only versatility that thing even has in terms of movepool is a change in hidden power and a possible cm.

I agree that char-y is weak to rocks and all, but lando-i and keld dont' really have superior coverage, and lando-i is only 101, which is still pretty damn slow. If anything, char-y has better coverage, since char-y+bisharp hits just about everything sans dnite and char-x, no other mon can really boast such efficiency in terms of power when simply paired with a bisharp. This isn't even to mention that char-y is only running one real set, lando has to run several different variants to throw its checks off balance, which further proves its simply inferior in terms of wallbreaking.

I also agree that physical char-y sucks :P, and that chr-y should move down in general, but I disagree with your reasoning for it.

I would like to preface this saying that I do not think Charizard Y is bad, just outclassed.

Charizard Y for B+

Let us look at the A Rank definition and see how it applies to Zard Y.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

The first thing that pops out here is the phrase "sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame", which does not apply to Zard Y. It has many more counters than the other wallbreakers in the tier in Lati@s, Talonflame, Heatran, Garchomp, Charizard X, Chansey, and Dragonite and has way more checks than other wallbreakers. It is unable to sweep or wallbreak most of the tier. His massive amount of checks also mean it can't do its job more than once and is unable to threaten more than one Mon on your opponent's team.

Then why in the world is lando-i S rank? That thing doesn't sweep, support, or wall, it breaks walls :I
You could say that it sweeps with rock polish, but in theory, char-y could sweep with a flame charge too.
Point is, the definitions for Letter rankings are incredibly flawed, and really shouldn't be used in an argument at all lol.

Latios doesn't coutner, it gets 2hko'd and doesn't OHKO with a draco, from where char-y can roost and force it out.
Heatran gets 2hko'd by eq and has to be wary of focus blast.
4/0 Garchomp also gets 2hko'd by fire blast, although it is faster and can force it out. Even solarbeam has a 96.1% chance to 2hko lol.

Char-x and dnite are respectable checks, although dnite needs multscale to be intact otherwise that gets 2hko'd by fire blast as well (4/0).
And can you really say a special attacker sucks because its walled by chansey? Come on.
Not to even mention that after a bisharp pursuit and rocks, chansey is 2hko'd by fire blast.

The second thing that pops out is "require less support than most other to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be easily overlooked when compared to their positive traits". Charizard Y REQUIRES Hazard removal and a Pursuit trapper, which eats up 2 of your teamslots just to support a wallbreaker. Not a sweeper, but a wallbreaker who can only do its job one time before becoming dead or useless. It is also restrictive on its user's teambuilding because now you have to take in the possibility of Drought being active when you have your other Pokemon out, meaning you can't slap a Water-type or Fire weak/neutral Pokemon on your team without possible repercussions. This is extremely inefficient.

Some form of hazard removal should be on every team imo, and most teams try to fit it in anyway. And several pokemon need help from bisharp to help trap aegislash and what not. Bisharp is incredibly common on teams anyway, so I think its fine. This isn't even to mention the incredible efficiency of char-y+bisharp offense, there's literally nothing that isn't 2hko'd by char-y and not pursuit trapped in upper level play except for dnite and char-x. So effectively, unless you carry one of these mons (and dnite needs to be bulky/have multiscale intact, AND you need to keep rocks off) your team basically crumbles.

"But that can't be your only reason to drop Zard Y," you may say. "It hits hard as fuck and nobody can do what it does."

Actually, there are several Pokemon that already do its job. And they are way better.

• Landorus-I
• Keldeo
• Kyurem-B
• Azumarill
• Terrakion

First of all, none of these bar Kyurem-B are weak to SR (Keldeo and Terrakion resist), meaning they can switch in freely and often.

Ok
only kyu-b even has reliable and consistent recovery (and roost is uncommon on it), which makes up for rocks weakness a little.
Second, how in the world are you calling keldeo a wallbreaker. It hits hard, that's really it. Its stabs are ridiculously easy to check and no, i mean NO stall out there will have trouble with keldeo (will pack a counter to it).

Char-y is good because of how efficient char-y+bisharp offense is, and there is none of those mons can boast to be part of a two-mon core that destroys the entire meta sans char-x.

Secondly, all of them have ways of fucking over a switch without much prediction. Lando can Knock Off, U-Turn, or Calm Mind, Keldeo can potentially get a Scald burn, Kyurem-B can set up a Sub and proceed to potentially wreck your opponent, Azumarill can Knock Off or Belly Drum, and Terrakion can use Swords Dance, Sub, Taunt, Rock Polish, or even Stealth Rock. Zard Y needs to predict perfectly otherwise a check comes in and you're immediately forced out while potentially giving your opponent a free Dragon Dance/Swords Dance/Whatever.

Imo the lack of prediction just shows how much more ridiculous char-y is. When your stab is basically 2hko'ing resists with respectable special bulk like latios, who the fuck needs to predict. Just click fire blast and win.
Besides, the opportunity for prediction is also a bad thing. What if the opponent actually keeps their char-x in on your azu (for whatever reason) and just flare blitzes predicting you to belly drum? Then you're the one that's screwed. There's none of that with char-y, you just click fire blast.

If the player is skilled enough to take advantage of a switch by setting up a Cm or BD, then its safe to assume he can predict the switch in and nail it with the right move. Not to mention char-y can also just roost, which none of the otehr wallbreakers you listed (sans kyu-b) can do.

Thirdly, none of them require the level of team support that Zard Y does; since the list of things they want dead is small compared to Zard Y. Lando actually doesn't need anything dead as long as it is in front of something that it threatens the fuck out of and lets it start U-Turning/Knock Offing, Keldeo only needs the Latis gone, Kyurem-B only needs Chansey dead (or can kill her itself depending on the set Kube is running) when against Stall or anything faster than it that has super effective moves, Azumarill is only troubled by Mega Venusaur and Amoongus (who are dealt with similarly), and Terrakion is only really walled by Skarmory, Lando-T, Gliscor, and Aegislash without an Air Balloon. What does Zard Y need dead? Thundurus, Landorus, Bisharp/Keldeo/Azumarill/Deoxys-S if you can't get rid of SR for whatever reason, Garchomp, other Charizards (mainly X), Tyranitar, Heatran, Chansey, Talonflame, Deoxys-S, the Latis, Scarf Excadrill, Politoed, and Dragonite. Wow, that list is long.

Lando actually runs u-turn? wtf? wow
And char-y really only needs a pursuit bisharp alongside it to win, because some light hazard removal should more or less be on every team.
When you say that lando can just start knock off'ing, you're inferring that knock off allows lando to weaken its checks and counters. Well what the hell do you think char-y fire blast does.

Also

Keldeo only needs the Latis gone

LOOOOOOOOL
every stall must run latias then because that's the only thing in the game that can stop it LOOOLOLOLOL
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Gloom: 104-124 (32 - 38.2%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO
Based latias pls save us from keld ur the only thing that can stop it ;____;

Your lists of pokemon that stop wallbreakers is just incredibly inaccurate and misleading man.

Kyu-b actually needs sylveon dead too, for one, and we ALL know how easy it is to revenge kyu-b. Since you listed mons to revenge char-y that it "needs out of the way," how come you only listed chansey for kyu-b? Kyu-b needs keldeo, terrak, any dragon not named unboosted nite, mach punch, bullet punch, and a fuckload of otehr stuff gone to "do its job" too. You didn't even mention ferrothorn or scizor in terms of stopping kyu-b lol.

Azumarill actually has a little bit of trouble with skarm (oh ferrothorn exists too), and w/out CB (rare) it doesn't even beat quagsire lol. And then comes the list of mons that are faster than it and hurt it, like megaman, raikou, breloom, etc.

The mons you listed don't even wall terrak lol, CB terrak smashes skarm and LO terrak with HP ice can hit lando-t and gliscor.

What does Zard Y need dead? Thundurus, Landorus, Bisharp/Keldeo/Azumarill/Deoxys-S if you can't get rid of SR for whatever reason, Garchomp, other Charizards (mainly X), Tyranitar, Heatran, Chansey, Talonflame, Deoxys-S, the Latis, Scarf Excadrill, Politoed, and Dragonite. Wow, that list is long.

Nothing you even listed except char-x and chansey even switches in safely. Every thing else revenges, and that's totally besides the point from the start. Char-y isn't a sweeper, its a wallbreaker, and when everything but two mons in this list can't even switch in you're just proving my point.

Fourthly, none of these Mons are one dimensional (barring Keldeo, who is still hard to deal with thanks to Secret Sword). Landorus can be a Pivot, offensive SR setter, Calm Mind sweeper, and has several coverage options in Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Earth Power, and Psychic to go along with U-Turn or Knock Off. Kyurem-B can run Physical Scarf or Life Orb, Azumarill can Revenge Kill AND sweep, and Terrakion can sweep, set up SR, Revenge Kill, or even anti-lead. Zard Y has literally one set with massive 4MSS. You need Fire Blast, Solar Beam, and Roost, but have to choose between beating Tyranitar (Focus Blast), beating Heatran (Earthquake), maybe beating the Latis (Dragon Pulse), or going kamikaze to get rid of Chansey (Flare Blitz lolololol).

Allright, so char-y is rather predictable, but who cares? The wallbreakers you listed need to run different sets to work around different checks adn counters, but char-y doesn't, and that's good. Char-y, a lot like mega pinsir, only needs one moveset to smash through everything it does, sans a few move variations, and the lack of versatility really doesn't prevent either of them from being that bad.
Also, Azu aqua jet isn't exactly a reliable way of revenge killing unless CB.
And i already adressed char-y's moveset, it does in no way have 4mss, why do people think it does lol. Check that nice pokemon damage calculator before saying you need dragon pulse to beat latios.

Fifthly, these Mons do not have trouble with offensive teams like Zard Y. They have the bulk, power, speed, resistances, coverage, and/or priority to actually threaten many offensive Mons. Zard Y? It's stuck at unboosted Base 100 with no priority, Fire/Grass coverage that cannot be boosted and is easily walled, and has 3 common weaknesses in Rock, Electric, and Water.

Uh, sun boosts fire pretty damn well son, and its actually a better method of boosting seeing as how it requires no free turns.
Fire/grass coverage itself is easily walled, but again, check the damage calculator before actually saying that latios counters char-y or something like that, because it is cleanly 2hko'd by fire blast lol.

Finally, none of them need Chansey dead to do their job and can actually fuck her hard. This is the main reason why Zard Y is outclassed, because it is a wallbreaker that cannot break the most common and important wall in the game and has trouble with Stall in general. Landorous has Knock Off, U-Turn, and Calm Mind + Focus Blast to muscle past it, Keldeo just murders you, Azumarill also has Knock off and has been known to run Superpower, and Terrakion can just set up in front of you. The only thing in my list that has trouble with Chansey is Kyurem-B, who can still win depending on the set and fucks Stall over as soon as it gets a Sub up while Zard Y still struggles against several Stall staples such as Heatran, Zard X, and Mega Venusaur (who can stall out the Sun thanks to it boosting Synthesis' recovery).

>saying that chansey is the main reason char-y is bad against stall
>char-y struggles with mega venu
>no mention of char-x on stall whatsoever

This basically just shows how much you know about stall and the meta overall atm.

Onto the B Rank definition.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

Charizard Y fits this perfectly. It is powerful, but flawed and needs support to do its job. You can't slap it on a team like pretty much everything else in the A and S ranks, you have to build your team around it.

TL;DR
Zard Y is outclassed and needs too much support to be considered anywhere A rank; drop it to B+.

Oh like you can just slap mega pinsir, deo-s, bisharp, landorus, or azu on any team whatsoever and just call it a day. please.
You have to build your team around ANYTHING you add into a team, because otehrwise, that assumes taht there is one mon with no weaknesses and requires support, and taht's not true.

I await your hate.

No hate here, just logic with a pinch of bias and experience. In case you were looking for hate:

I encourage you to learn more about the meta or just stop posting y/n?Nice logic, 10/10 post man. Your abundant courage allows me to overlook your limited knowledge. Good job

EDIT: whoops didn't realize there was another page of replies in which everyone in their mother said the same thing, smh

Nog pls

 

[dialganet]

I disagree with Charizard Y going any lower than A+. A is already underselling it, in my opinion. And, sincerely, B+? Are we really comparing this monster to Mega Garchomp and Mega Medicham, to stay with wallbreakers?

He's simply a special nuke that runs Earthquake to get around one of his supposed hard-counters, and is basically countered beforehand only by Chansey. He can basically pick it's own counters choosing which moves to run. Yeah it's piss-weak to SR but so are Pinsir and Thundurus. Even the mighty Charizard X would have trouble setting up after having lost a quarter of health (best scenario, altready mega-evolved) and the Bulky Will o'Wisp set won't appreciate to have likely to waste a turn Roosting. Yeah, Zard X has less trouble with SR and Thundurus can always fire off a nasty T-wave, but I guess that's the reason they're S and Charizard Y is A+, isn't it?

I also find the majority of comparisons with Landorus-Incarnate to be particularly one-sided. Yeah, Landorus can run a variety of moves that can screw some supposed to be counters, like U-Turn, Knock Off, CM, Rock Polish and even put up Rocks, but Charizard Y isn't helpless. He can run Dragon Pulse to deal with the Lati@s and Dragonite, leaving Heatran and Tyranitar to a team mate (but Focus Blast can do the job either way). He basically always runs Earthquake. Hell, you can even try an obscure DD set with Fire Blast (which is the only given move, such as Earth Power on Landorus, in my opinion), and Earthquake to deal with Heatran DDancing on the switch and then proceed to kill him. After that, your opponent is in a very difficult situation, as at +1 Zard Y is very, very difficult to handle, especially if you have to guess the last move. Yeah, I know, an all out offensive set has to give up Roost, but Landorus doesn't even have the option to heal himself. Landorus has a better all-around damage output (thanks to LO-SheerForce), although doesn't have that Fire Blast. It has a more obscure flat out counter than Chansey (specially defensive Mandibuzz), and is neutral to Rocks, but I'm going in circles here: he's S for a reason and Zard Y isn't, no? Hasn't Landorus to choose between Psychic, HP Ice, Focus Blast, Sludge Bomb, and one of the aforementioned Moves? Zard Y can almost do the same, not exactly the same, but he's great.

Zard Y uses his sun to fire Fire Blast but can also remove a crippling weakness for a teammate like Terrakion or Gliscor, he's a standalone great Wallbreaker and a good team player. Basically, you pick your counters and take a suitable teammate to deal with them, and you're done. That's not a lot of support. That's the support that Mega Gyarados, Mega Mawile, Mega Tyranitar need. A+ megas. Specs Keldeo is great, but he's locked in, far easier to exploit.

The metagame hasn't been nice to Charizard Y lately. He has a monster of a brother who can perform loads of differents sets compared to ZardY base wallbreaking set that can basically only change a couple of moves, but he's no MegaManectric. Given that, he still does his job greatly. He's in the same boat as Mega Pinsir, in my opinion. There aren't mons the meta is more prepared for than this two, and they still perform very, very well. I honestly think this confirms he's A+ material. Keep in A+, just my two cents.

 

[Cinco Swift]

Diggersby is a lot better than Heliolisk. I don't even see why you're comparing these two things seeing as they both do different stuff. Heliolisk is literally a worse Raikou or Rotom-W, gaining momentum through Volt Switch, while Diggersby wallbreaks or sweeps. Oh no what is this? Diggersby doesn't have a water immunity! Well Heliolisk doesn't have a Electric or Ghost immunity if were arguing about this! Heliolisk has 109 Spa. Diggersby has the equivalent of >160 Atk. I believe this is a notable difference in power. Also, Diggersby's quick attack makes up for speed, KO'ing stuff like Latios, Greninja after a SD.

UMMM Heliolisk DOES have a ghost immunity... Nor is he a worse Raikou as he has a superior movepool and therefore more options to run. For example he can't run Hp ice and grass at the same time whereas Heliolisk can run Grass knot and HP ice to beat Quagsire and Gliscor at the same time. Heliolisk even has Surf to nail a ground type switching in expecting a volt switch. Not to mention Raikou doesnt even have a water immunity. Rotom-W fills an entirely different role as Heliolisk as he doesnt hit nearly as hard and is far slower. He fils a different role than Heliolisk and is nowhere near better than him at what he does.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Helioisk's water immunity is not enough to give it a good (and rank-worthy) niche in OU. Basically every relevant thing that uses Water STAB, can insta-gib it with any move that's not their water STAB if they predict Helioisk to switch in. Manaphy, Rotom-W, Slowbro, and Suicine are pretty much the only ones it can safely switch in on, and none of these pokes are threatening enough (or hard to counter) to warrant using Helioisk. And everything that uses Ghost STAB also insta-gibs it, they don't even need to predict since Aegislash tanks a hit and OHKOs with Sacred Sword, and Gengar outspeeds and does whatever.

If we ignore those two immunities (which it can barely utilize,) Helioisk is really mediocre.

I don't think a comparison to Raikou and Mega Man is apt. All they share it an electric typing and the utility of Volt Switch. IMO Greninja is a better comparison, as a fast and frail special attacker with good coverage and a delayed switch (U-Turn.) And Helioisk is just utterly eclipsed by it. Even Tornadus-T, in B rank, is a lot better imo, as it can use physical moves and has a stellar ability (it also sports an immunity.)

Helioisk is just way too niche. Very few people are in the market for a frail-as-balls Electric-type/Special attacker with an immunity to water and ghost attacks. Now STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

Chances are if a pokemon hasn't been added to the list at this point AND it's thread has been locked (for not being viable) then it probably doesn't need to be ranked. Just saying it gets old reading this thread and seeing people nominate pokemon that anyone with knowledge of the metagame knows isn't viable.

I'd like to see what people think of dropping Manaphy to B+ Rank. On one hand, it can become a MONSTER in the rain, after a Tail Glow boost it 2HKOs Chansey which is an insane feat for a special attacker to do after just one boost. Yet on the other hand, it's not fast enough to sweep offense and it's not quite powerful to break stall, theres a plethora of faster pokemon that can revenge kill it or 2HKO it while it tries to set up a sweep on Offense and for defense, depending on it's moveset, Chansey, Mega-Venusaur and Unaware Clefable all can wall it. It can still be great but I just don't see it as a top level threat as A rank pokemon should be.

 

[Cinco Swift]

Helioisk's water immunity is not enough to give it a good (and rank-worthy) niche in OU. Basically every relevant thing that uses Water STAB, can insta-gib it with any move that's not their water STAB if they predict Helioisk to switch in. Manaphy, Rotom-W, Slowbro, and Suicine are pretty much the only ones it can safely switch in on, and none of these pokes are threatening enough (or hard to counter) to warrant using Helioisk. And everything that uses Ghost STAB also insta-gibs it, they don't even need to predict since Aegislash tanks a hit and OHKOs with Sacred Sword, and Gengar outspeeds and does whatever.

If we ignore those two immunities (which it can barely utilize,) Helioisk is really mediocre.

I don't think a comparison to Raikou and Mega Man is apt. All they share it an electric typing and the utility of Volt Switch. IMO Greninja is a better comparison, as a fast and frail special attacker with good coverage and a delayed switch (U-Turn.) And Helioisk is just utterly eclipsed by it. Even Tornadus-T, in B rank, is a lot better imo, as it can use physical moves and has a stellar ability (it also sports an immunity.)

Helioisk is just way too niche. Very few people are in the market for a frail-as-balls Electric-type/Special attacker with an immunity to water and ghost attacks. Now STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.

Aegi may tank a hit but doesnt even have the chance to touch him with SS cause Helio already switched out using VS leaving a dent in Aegi. Also if Heliolisk safely gets in on Azumarill, he either scores a KO with VOlt Switch or gains momentum for your team. None of these other Electric types can survive a +4 Aqua Jet. Saying Pokes 'Insta-Gib' it is not an argument because he will VOlt switch and leave a dent before the other POe can hit it unless the other poke is faster. However sporting a great base 109 speed Heliolisk outspeeds a huge portion of the tier. Heliolisk is a poke that keeps coming in and out and leaving dents in the opposition just like those other electric types but unlike them has great immunities and a solid base 94 SPd to take resisted electric attacks and gain momentum while hitting hard with a powerful Volt Switch. Greninja is a good Pokemon but his U-turn simply doesnt hit as hard as Heliolisks Volt Switch and cant take repeated Water hits due to his poor bulk. Heliolisks VOlt switch which is his primary move is far more powerful than Greninja's u-turn not to mention he won have to take ilfe orb recoil as he's running specs. Also his water immunity is an incredible asset and to say he BARELY utilizes it is a huge understatement.

 

[Cinco Swift]

Chances are if a pokemon hasn't been added to the list at this point AND it's thread has been locked (for not being viable) then it probably doesn't need to be ranked. Just saying it gets old reading this thread and seeing people nominate pokemon that anyone with knowledge of the metagame knows isn't viable.

I'd like to see what people think of dropping Manaphy to B+ Rank. On one hand, it can become a MONSTER in the rain, after a Tail Glow boost it 2HKOs Chansey which is an insane feat for a special attacker to do after just one boost. Yet on the other hand, it's not fast enough to sweep offense and it's not quite powerful to break stall, theres a plethora of faster pokemon that can revenge kill it or 2HKO it while it tries to set up a sweep on Offense and for defense, depending on it's moveset, Chansey, Mega-Venusaur and Unaware Clefable all can wall it. It can still be great but I just don't see it as a top level threat as A rank pokemon should be.

You know who completely WALLS Manaphy? Heliolisk

 

[Mowtom]

You know who completely WALLS Manaphy? Heliolisk

So does Vaporeon, Jellicent, and Parasect. Your point?

 

[Anty]

You know who completely WALLS Manaphy? Heliolisk

Im pretty sure the replay you posted shows it was a draw, despite heleolisk being the 'perfect counter' you only one because your opponent was bored although they could have one.

Heleolisk is completely outclassed, just because it has a good ability doesnt mean it is good. Raikou is bulkier, faster, hits harder and isnt walled by megasaur - something heleolisk can never do. Mega mane hits much harder, is much faster and has access to overheat. Thundurus has better coverage and a type to give it a niche immunity. Even rotom-w is better because its water move does damage.

Can we please move to a different subject as everybody has concluded that it isnt viable.

 

[boo118]

A few things though, heliolisk probably has better coverage than manectric as it gets grass knot and surf, so it doesn't have to use hp whatver for grounds. And it is actually immune to ghost :p

Manectric has flamethrower/overheat which is EXTREMELY good for beating mons like ferro, as you don't have to rely on focus miss. Grass only hits like rotom w if you are talking coverage wise, which only takes around 10% since it is light as a feather. Surf is its niche, as it helps against heatran. You should probably still run hp ice on it though. Manectric also has intimidate which can be extremely useful, godly speed, great spatk and decent bulk. Furthermore, immune to ghosts mean nothing considering the most used ghost is aegislash, which tanks anything heliolisk can throw at it, aswell as hit it with sacred sword/toxic it/sub on it. I don't even know why heliolisk would even be compared to mega manectric tbh

 

[Skankovich]

Oh I know Manectric is far better, I was just correcting what was said in the previous posts. Heliolisk is just a typical electric type with some nice quirks, really.