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Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf
- Thread starter Arcanine is Regal
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Not... Really? Brick Break has insane distribution and it isn't like it's a dead attack. 75 BP isn't as bad as old Knock off's, what, 20; and deals the same damage as attacks like Drain Punch. If two teams are identical but one subs out Brick Break on one of their pokemon in place of an all ready low utility option it isn't a 6-0 shift in the non-BP prepared team's favor. They have a small advantage in the increased coverage on a support mon and, otherwise, are none the stronger.
Honestly this "teams that prepare for BP auto-lose to those that don't" mentality needs to go right out the door.
It's just Klefki lead.
This might be a slightly controversial opinion, but to me this doesn't look like some sort of broken playstyle getting free wins from advantageous matchups, but rather like a genuinely good player winning legitimate matches.
I honestly fail to see the problem.
e: Also can we please stop turning this into some sort of 'WE THE PEOPLE vsdenniSssSsSsSssSsS BP'-witch hunt. Fuck's sake.
I honestly fail to see the problem.
e: Also can we please stop turning this into some sort of 'WE THE PEOPLE vs
Brick Break has complete shit power without STAB. Knock Off is completely different with 65 BP, and a 50% boost when removing an item giving it effective 97.5 BP before STAB, and removes the opponent's item. The two are not even comparable. You do realize that almost no one used knock off in gen 4&5, just because of the shit power. Brick Break has the same problem, giving it an only niche of breaking screens in a metagame where dual screens BP is very rare and its dead weight against any other teams. Drain Punch gives recovery back while Brick Break just smashes screens. No self respective fighting type would ever use Brick Break over high powered moves such as Close Combat or Hi Jump Kick. Even Conk would rather use Drain Punch due to it giving semi-reliable recovery due to his massive attack stat.
Knock Off was boosted to 65 without an item. ~98 if it knocks off an item. Just a quick nitpick.
It has shit power without STAB, you didnt catch that? Good luck breaking a scoilopede's sub, especially when it starts to boost up iron defense boost on you and lose all semblance of momentum.
From what it's worth, having talked to Denissss about his new team, his opinion seems to be that his new team is actually pretty bad. Because it's more vulnerable to offence (particularly Talonflame and suchlike) and has no real defensive core to speak of, and he only got up top because his alt was already high to begin with, but yeah. Take that for what you will.
This is the point when you read the word "old" in post you quoted and feel silly.
Because, obviously, if you're using Brick Break it's your only attack.
The fuck, dude. Think before you type.
If one mon proves to be effective at this, since it won't be a heavy attacker, what prevents you from opening with scolipede or even espeon?
The fuck are you using Brick Break for anyways? You are using an attack that may or may not break a BP chain that costs a precious turn against a BP team that you absolutely cannot waste turns against. It still has shit power, I have absolutely no idea what utility mon can make room for brick break. Not to mention the fact that you missed: Brick Break is useless against other team archtypes. What in the hell does Brick Break do to a DeoSharp team? Or a Stall Team? or a regular HO team? It does nothing. You may as well put no move in that slot against those teams.
Generally even a non-heavy attack can still break unboosted subs on either of those. Worst case scenario you run BB on something with set damage like Seismic Toss, if it is strictly a support pokemon you have set the move on, or just have it as the 4th attack of an all out attacker, or even a user like TTar that has an advantageous matchup against both Scoliopede and Espeon. Best case scenario, you out predict their prediction to counter your lead and lead yourself with a pokemon like Talonflame or Mega-Pinsir and tear them apart.
May I make a request that you do not reply to my posts if you do not read them?
The current complaint is that Dual Screens suicide lead gives too much momentum to the BP player because the non-BP player "has" to waste two turns removing the screen. (One turn to bring in the defog user, a second turn to defog, possibly a third to bring the defog user back out and damage/speed based BP counter in)
The suggestion of Brick Break is to circumvent those defog turns by simply killing the Deoxy-S suicide lead at the same time that screens are removed, in a way that can not be Taunted. This neutralizes the aforementioned duel screens momentum lead, Deo is powerless to stop it, and Scoliopede, the standard BP lead, is near useless without a mental herb to protect it from Taunt.
You're missing the point and I might have worded with wrong. Knock Off--while also relatively low on BP if it isn't knocking off an item, does not give up viability for the sake of utility.
I think the best way to show how Brick Break is a gimmick is to refer to Subject 18 's post about gimmicks here. There is no reason to use Brick Break unless you are breaking screens. If you go up against an opponent who isn't use screens, you are essentially wasting a moveslot and potentially an entire Pokemon if Brick Break is the Pokemon-in-question's sole STAB (its plain stupid to use non-STAB Brick Break, especially when Defog exists.)
It's "plain stupid" in all ways except for much better distribution, can't be Taunted, and kills the turn the threat is removed so said threat can't be re-applied. So, yes, it's stupid for all of the opposite reasons defog currently is coming up short.
Damage isn't that important compared to what it allows your team to do. In this instance, it would allow your team to hose the current #1 on the ladder. Worth the tradeoff?
If duel screens become a problem in the meta, then using a move that relieves yourself of them is not a huge sacrifice, especially if it breaks the crux of your opponent's team. The fact that it is still fighting coverage with an ok 75 BP when threats like Heatran, Tyranitar and Bisharp exist in the meta is a bonus.
The nerfbat and the banhammer will be waiting.
Much better distribution in the fact that most things that learn it are OHKO's by Psycho Boost from Deo-S--the main setter of screens? Taunted? The current trend is offensive defoggers who can beat Deo-S 1v1. Lati@s 1-2HKO with Draco Meteor if Deo-S tries to Taunt after setting screens up, MScizor just straight up OHKO's with Bullet Punch before Deo-S has a chance to get off a Reflect or a Taunt, and Mandibuzz forces Deo-S to decide between setting up screens and taunting it.
"kills the turn the threat is removed so said threat can't be re-applied" -- What does this even mean? Who exactly do you expect to use Brick Break to ensure screens will not be up again? Every viable Pokemon that doesn't mind giving up a moveslot for a situational move (read: none but I'll humor you with Conkeldurr, Excadrill, and Bisharp) are all OHKO'd by either Psycho Boost or can't perform their job against the rest of the team.
For the coverage part, keep in mind that MMawile doesn't even OHKO Heatran with Brick Break. Its just too weak of a move to be used as coverage.
The bolded is straight talking out your ass. Here, a list of all applicable pokemon to fill this capacity. I'm sure you can find one, or ten, not OHKOed by psycho boost. http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/search?move=@us,move:Brick Break&move=&move=&move=
Likewise, I'm not sure where you're getting your damage statistics.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Deoxys-S through Light Screen: 150-177 (49.3 - 58.2%)
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%)
4 Atk Mandibuzz Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S through Reflect: 81-96 (26.6 - 31.5%)
None of these actually are threats to a suicide lead.
Unsurprisingly it means you kill Deo-S the turn screens are removed so he can't set them up again. I'd be horrified if every single pokemon in the game's movesets were locked in stone.
Is there something wrong with mutilating something with a coverage option? Even if it isn't a 1hko, Heatran isn't exactly happy to take it to the face and I highly doubt he'd take it twice.
Attempting to stall out the screens turns can backfire if the opponent predicts you're going to do that and starts building the chain.
You're deliberately trying not to KO Deoxys-S until turn 8 by spamming Rapid Spin/Toxic/whatever doesn't kill it? Opponent sends Scolipede in and you're screwed.
All it takes is one free turn to lead to the snowball effect BP teams are notorious for.
You're deliberately trying not to KO Deoxys-S until turn 8 by spamming Rapid Spin/Toxic/whatever doesn't kill it? Opponent sends Scolipede in and you're screwed.
All it takes is one free turn to lead to the snowball effect BP teams are notorious for.
Agreeing with many if the people above; this form of Baton Pass isn't broken, it's just a genius with talents for teambuilding most of us can only dream of, that's sitting at the other end of the team.
Since he is also a fantastic player, the team becomes problematic. I believe it's more the mind behind the team and not the concept itself that's the trouble. In my opinion, this is just a well built team, which takes skill to pull off (like quickpassing).
I have mad respect for dEnIsSsS and what he has done. WP man, come troll the entire OU community once again when the Deo's have been suspected :]
Lmfao the best I could find, why ain't I good at Photoshop ;_;
Since he is also a fantastic player, the team becomes problematic. I believe it's more the mind behind the team and not the concept itself that's the trouble. In my opinion, this is just a well built team, which takes skill to pull off (like quickpassing).
I have mad respect for dEnIsSsS and what he has done. WP man, come troll the entire OU community once again when the Deo's have been suspected :]
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He's male, look at his profile. -_-
INB4 Denis is Verlisify in disguise coming here to troll Smogon's admins and mods. :P
Seriously tho, I also have respect for you Deniss cause it takes one heck of a mind to create two ultra successful teams that change the entire metagame in a row, hats off.
P.S: just coming in here and laughing at everybody in this thread was gold lol
I'm curious to find out the community's answer to the following question:
Before this neo-BP team came into existence, which utilizes dual screens Deo-S, how broken did you find Deo-S? Was it on the same level as Deo-D?
Because I've never found Deo-S to be as broken as Deo-D, and I'm worried that if the two of them are suspected at once, an unfortunate ban may occur on something that is only really broken on denisSsS's BP team.
Before this neo-BP team came into existence, which utilizes dual screens Deo-S, how broken did you find Deo-S? Was it on the same level as Deo-D?
Because I've never found Deo-S to be as broken as Deo-D, and I'm worried that if the two of them are suspected at once, an unfortunate ban may occur on something that is only really broken on denisSsS's BP team.
To be fair? IIRC, there has not been a Gen where Deo hasn't been uber. I don't see why that'd change this generation either.
In fact, I'm kinda weirded out that Deoxys comes down from Uber every generation to play before its inevitable ban.
This would be Golden
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