This happened due to people's ignorance and lack of understanding of BP in general. That is nobodies fault since the suspect test itself really didn't teach anyone anything, but instead the result of the suspect test is how everyone came to the conclusion that the old BP teams were overall inferior to a degree. Also when I, and I'm sure many others, start seeing things like "Is BP banned?" or "I thought BP was banned" that just furthers the argument that people are absolutely clueless of what's going on and don't even bother to stay informed. From what I could gather the majority picked Option 2 because they believed there would be less collateral damage, but most people who have seen BP outside of things like full dedicated teams kind of saw this coming but either didn't bother to get involved or was still pondering on the whole issue of BP in general.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other The effectiveness of Baton Pass teams after the nerf
- Thread starter Arcanine is Regal
- Start date
- Status
Ok so I peaked 1912 with this nonsense, and seriously the last 4 games I lost to were to hax, so there is no reason for me to progress any farther to prove that the best way to handle baton pass is to either get 4 full paras in a row, or get a crit when you only have 1 chance to do so. Either that or use crazy counters like haze honchkrow or perish song murkrow.
I am done posting in this thread because all the competent players realize how cancerous this new neo-bp is to the ladder, and I am sure in a few weeks we will do something about it. I am pretty sure I will never use Baton Pass again because it is sooo boring and feels like I am doing homework. (not to mention that everyone hates my guts)
The last things I wanted to say were that Im pretty sure the best counter to this new team, that can easily fit onto OU teams is thundurus. Just use life orb with taunt and twave, and the odds of you winning are pretty darn high. The other way is to use a combination of lando-i/aegislash/pinsir/tflame, in order to over power them before they can boost all the appropiate stats. Everything else feels gimmicky and doesnt even work all the time. Bisharp is also a reasonably good poke that applies pressure but maybe use him in conjuction with tflame to handle scolipede. But yeah rain offense with politoed is good because perish song shuts it down, and VERY Hyper offensive teams work ok as well. There are other counters I guess, but pretty much any S rank pokemon has a chance to help you beat baton pass, albeit a small chance, but hopefully we dont need to deal with it for much longer.
I hope this thread helped draw some attention to the issues and educated some people who were unaware of what was going on ( because some people couldnt even tell baton pass was nerfed, as am145 mentioned). And sorry to denisss if I was being to harsh to you and your level of skill, I was only doing so because I feel strongly about ridding the OU metagame of baton pass and you were the most prominent person I could target to get across my points.
There is too much controversy around this topic, and I dont like being in the middle, lol. But hopefully the meta keeps on developing in a healthy manner.
I am done posting in this thread because all the competent players realize how cancerous this new neo-bp is to the ladder, and I am sure in a few weeks we will do something about it. I am pretty sure I will never use Baton Pass again because it is sooo boring and feels like I am doing homework. (not to mention that everyone hates my guts)
The last things I wanted to say were that Im pretty sure the best counter to this new team, that can easily fit onto OU teams is thundurus. Just use life orb with taunt and twave, and the odds of you winning are pretty darn high. The other way is to use a combination of lando-i/aegislash/pinsir/tflame, in order to over power them before they can boost all the appropiate stats. Everything else feels gimmicky and doesnt even work all the time. Bisharp is also a reasonably good poke that applies pressure but maybe use him in conjuction with tflame to handle scolipede. But yeah rain offense with politoed is good because perish song shuts it down, and VERY Hyper offensive teams work ok as well. There are other counters I guess, but pretty much any S rank pokemon has a chance to help you beat baton pass, albeit a small chance, but hopefully we dont need to deal with it for much longer.
I hope this thread helped draw some attention to the issues and educated some people who were unaware of what was going on ( because some people couldnt even tell baton pass was nerfed, as am145 mentioned). And sorry to denisss if I was being to harsh to you and your level of skill, I was only doing so because I feel strongly about ridding the OU metagame of baton pass and you were the most prominent person I could target to get across my points.
There is too much controversy around this topic, and I dont like being in the middle, lol. But hopefully the meta keeps on developing in a healthy manner.
Last edited:
I just started laddering with this BP team, and I stand by my thoughts that Deoscreens are the actual broken element here. I doubt this team could function if it didn't basically have almost guaranteed 5-7 turns of increased physical or special bulk for Scolipede or Espeon to abuse. To me, Deo-S is just as mindless, automatic, and reliable a screen setter as Deo-D is a hazards setter. I'm not sure why it took so long for an HO team (because BP is basically a form of HO, I don't think there's any denying that at this point) to abuse DeoScreens well enough to break the metagame, but it's happened. Sure, we can and probably should ban BP or limit it to one user and that will fix this team, but I have no doubt that someone will find another broken team that is also broken specifically because of DeoScreens, so we need to tackle that as soon as possible. If there's any conclusive evidence that Deo-S is banworthy, than this is it right here.
Though, to be fair, someone actually pointed out that banning Deo-S will just cause this team to run Azelf, but eh, we'll deal with that when we get to it. Just get Deo-S out of OU.
Though, to be fair, someone actually pointed out that banning Deo-S will just cause this team to run Azelf, but eh, we'll deal with that when we get to it. Just get Deo-S out of OU.
Neither pre-nerf or neo-BP teams qualify as HO for one simple reason: they deal no damage at all for the first 6-10 turns. HO treams can potentially start KOing stuff right from turn 1 if they lead with something like Charizard or Mamoswine, or turn 3 at worst if they use a suicide lead like Deo-D.
There is a reason why people were so uninformed when they voted. During the last suspect test, Haunter told people to use Baton Pass so they could make a more informed decision, but instead everyone did the opposite and loaded up to stop Baton Pass which made Baton Pass look bad when it really was good. All the suspect ladder showed is how people let their pride get in the way of their judgement. Everyone wanted to counterteam Baton Pass to feel good instead of either using Baton Pass itself or using their standard team to see how it performed against Baton Pass. WebBowser deserves some credit for actually trying to see what a 3 mon Baton Pass could do on the suspect ladder, but everyone else thought they were too good to use Baton Pass, and worse, they were all foaming at the mouth to stop Baton Pass and they had no idea how Baton Pass performed on the regular ladder against regular teams.
don't ban baton pass, just limit it to only one mon with baton pass in a team.
Please, I beg you ;;
Please, I beg you ;;
WebBowser and I both called it (and I never used BP myself lol) but few people listened. Then again I am horrible at putting my thoughts into written words so my explanations were more than likely subpar or incomplete.
Some of you are laddering with Baton Pass and recieving hate and wondering why? You are using baton pass, The most despised thing in ou. You say you are "laddering to show its broken" but get upset when you are talked about and get negative feedback but thats what you signed up for right? From watching Denisss and the many others we all know its broken.Im not going to lie I've been an ass to Baton pass users but i wont apologize for it. The fustration playing baton pass is unbelievable. Knowing that the odds are against you from the jump alone makes you want to quit. Baton pass should be limited to one user. I think everyone can agree on it being broken. No need to keep getting your "feeling hurt" or getting "mad" when you get hate from using bp.
BP needs the priority it got. it was immediately more of a problem than zard x. also lol @ mega venu getting a suspect.
We try to avoid quick bans on controversial topics like Baton Pass. As for the priority SwagPlay and Baton Pass got, everyone has his priorities. The fact that yours don't match with ours, isn't really relevant here. Also don't assume that we're gonna test all of the Pokemon you mentioned, cause that's very unlikely. Let's focus on Baton Pass and avoid off topics like this, thank you.
Capitalist
Guest
Mega Venusaaur simply needs a specific move to check, which are quite common. It's week to Psychic and Flying, most teams carry those particular moves.
As for the topic, on baton pass viability after the nerf, Baton Pass had some really efficient checks however they were very uncommon in the current metagame and forced the team to use specific Pokémon to deal with that. Once a chain is going, it's really hard to stop without phazing. The nerf simply negated full baton pass teams, while still allowing it to be in usage for competitive play, still holding some decent strategies, and Baton Pass is definitely viable. A reasonable example in the OU metagame is Scolipede, it still can abuse Baton Pass singlehandedly without caring about the nerf, giving that boost to a Physical Pokémon to try and seal a sweep. Baton Pass still works, however one of the most broken strategies with it is simply no longer viable.
As for the topic, on baton pass viability after the nerf, Baton Pass had some really efficient checks however they were very uncommon in the current metagame and forced the team to use specific Pokémon to deal with that. Once a chain is going, it's really hard to stop without phazing. The nerf simply negated full baton pass teams, while still allowing it to be in usage for competitive play, still holding some decent strategies, and Baton Pass is definitely viable. A reasonable example in the OU metagame is Scolipede, it still can abuse Baton Pass singlehandedly without caring about the nerf, giving that boost to a Physical Pokémon to try and seal a sweep. Baton Pass still works, however one of the most broken strategies with it is simply no longer viable.
I'm thinking we should pinpoint the problems here and how to solve them:
1) Screens: The Deo's provide almost flawless support in this regards, and match ups that are clearly in the hands of most offensive teams are now being lost because the time the screen buys for BP teams, otherwise how is a 3 chain BP team winning with stuff like MPinsir and CharX flying around?
2) Even without screens, Stall is royally screwed with a Ingrain user + Magic Bounce. I guess Dragon Tail can be adopted along with hazard damage but that remains to be seen.
The Deos were simply overshadowed by the myriad of overpowered stuff we had to endure and suspect over the past months but right now I think we should tackle them first before we go back and blame BP without reason, because in reality Screens + Set up users is even a more deadlier and more consistent playstyle atm.
1) Screens: The Deo's provide almost flawless support in this regards, and match ups that are clearly in the hands of most offensive teams are now being lost because the time the screen buys for BP teams, otherwise how is a 3 chain BP team winning with stuff like MPinsir and CharX flying around?
2) Even without screens, Stall is royally screwed with a Ingrain user + Magic Bounce. I guess Dragon Tail can be adopted along with hazard damage but that remains to be seen.
The Deos were simply overshadowed by the myriad of overpowered stuff we had to endure and suspect over the past months but right now I think we should tackle them first before we go back and blame BP without reason, because in reality Screens + Set up users is even a more deadlier and more consistent playstyle atm.
I'll contribute to the BP discussion: it seems to me players are winning with skill and not mindlessly spamming one team, they are more diverse and take more skill to use. Is a nerf really needed? It's a waste of time, imo, to be wasting another three weeks on the same suspect when we can move on, and come back to this later. It's only been a few weeks let the metagame deveolp a bit, eh? We should be spending our time more wisely!
Last edited:
I like how no one gets that the whole point of the suspect was to nerf baton pass and not to make it unviable/unusable.
Definition: In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change.
Just skimming through the thread, people complain that bp still works albeit less effectively than before. Hence achieving the goal of the suspect and yet people still bitch. EFFFS you people are never happy.
Definition: In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change.
Just skimming through the thread, people complain that bp still works albeit less effectively than before. Hence achieving the goal of the suspect and yet people still bitch. EFFFS you people are never happy.
The bigger Problem at hand is Deoxys speed. I have pondered what is the broken aspect of baton pass now? At first I thought its Scolipede and Espeon. Lets take Deoxys speed from the equation, Things Like TalonFlame/Pinsir would have a fair chance against a team that can't set up defences. Sure something would be put to sleep but you could switch it back in and continue the bird spam but that's beside the point. The point is Deoxys speed has always been a huge problem. The way it is currently being used just highlights that fact. I'm sure other screen setters will come into play but a Deoxys suspect is the real thing that's needed right now. While I do get why everyone is so ready to get baton pass out , the screen setter is what is really giving it the momentum to baton pass.
I'm not saying Deo-S isn't broken, but I'm starting to agree with WebBowser's sentiment that the problem is and has always been the Scolipede/Espeon core. For all Deo-S's speed, it can never outspeed a Prankster Taunt, which shuts down its Screens strategy. The only thing that makes Deo-S truly broken atm is this neo-BP team.
I completely agree with this. Having been laddering with a BP team myself for a while, it does seem to me like I get a lot of easy wins ... because nobody is even trying to stop me. I've found that HO teams can easily take my team down, and an early roar/whirlwind+offensive presence is enough to stop the BP chain early and take me out from there. But I'm laddering quite fast because people keep disconnecting without even trying. People keep talking about counters to BP and I'd like to start, you know, seeing those counters on the ladder.
In other news, it could just be my own style, but my favourite part of the team is Unaware Clefable. I have been able to sweep with Unaware Clefable alone but I doubt anyone is going to say Unaware Clefable needs a ban any time soon.
I have both Espeon and Clefable capable of sweeping with some boosts.
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Wish
- Moonblast
- Substitute
Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
Both of these are standard sets for BP sweepers afaik. I think Vaporeon runs similar to Espeon, but maybe with Scald instead of Calm Mind, for Dark-type Pokemon immune to Stored Power. But Stored Power is the preferred move since its power is based off of boosts.
Did anybody mentioned this already?
The main Problem with Baton Pass is, that people rellativly easy accumulate stat boosts which results more often than not in a Stored Power sweep from espeon.
So the problem lies in the impossibillity to remove them. Why is that so?
Because of the combination of Ingrain and Magic Bounce.
So we have to make phazing a viable option against Baton Passing again.
Now what about this..
We allow people to use up to 6 Baton Passing mons again BUT we forbid the use of magic bounce and more than 1 Baton Passer on a team and completly ban the move Ingrain.
Now every archtype can just phaze them out, espeon can still use Baton Pass to escape a possible pursuit and everyone can use 6 BPmons on his team again.
Also this causes very little collateral dmg, because outside of BP noone uses Ingrain and basicly noone has more than 1 mon with bp on his team especially if they use espon.
The main Problem with Baton Pass is, that people rellativly easy accumulate stat boosts which results more often than not in a Stored Power sweep from espeon.
So the problem lies in the impossibillity to remove them. Why is that so?
Because of the combination of Ingrain and Magic Bounce.
So we have to make phazing a viable option against Baton Passing again.
Now what about this..
We allow people to use up to 6 Baton Passing mons again BUT we forbid the use of magic bounce and more than 1 Baton Passer on a team and completly ban the move Ingrain.
Now every archtype can just phaze them out, espeon can still use Baton Pass to escape a possible pursuit and everyone can use 6 BPmons on his team again.
Also this causes very little collateral dmg, because outside of BP noone uses Ingrain and basicly noone has more than 1 mon with bp on his team especially if they use espon.
It's disingenuous to Baton Pass to SwagPlay. SwagPlay literally turned matches into coinflips, and couldn't really be countered by anything except Own Tempo mons (zero of which are OU viable) or counter SwagPlay. BP does have counters in OU.
Many Ubers have counters in OU, that doesn't make them not broken.
- Status