Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Valmanway]

What would people think about ranking Alomomola and/or Mantine. Both are borderline analysis worthy (Mega Luvdisc is getting one btw), so they're clearly worth at least the D rank. Alomomola is very useful as a Wish passer, it can Mirror Coat massive Special Attacks for the KO, and it recovers 33% of its health simply by switching out. It easily fits in FWG cores, and also works great with other Regenerator Pokemon, like Amoonguss. Mantine, on the other hand, is a niche Defogger that is able to very easily beat Landorus, Mega Charizard-Y, Keldeo, and other Special attackers. It's nice also as it has two immunities and lacks the nasty Grass weakness that most Water-types have. I'll tag these members, as they all know a bit about at least one of these two: Chillarmy TRC Jukain Dice alexwolf Agent Gibbs. Right now I'm thinking C rank for Alomomola and D rank for Mantine, but I'm not sure.

Mantine has no recovery whatsoever aside from Rest and Water Absorb, and a SR weakness makes this much more apparent, so his longevity is questionable at best. Due to this, his ability to take on special attackers is done so much better by most other special walls that are viable in OU, including Tyranitar, Latias, Chansey, Zapdos, Amoonguss, Sylveon, Togekiss, and even Slowking. It's really Mantine's lack of recovery outside of Rest and Water Absorb that stop him from getting any sufficient viability over his competition. Mantine does have the combination of Scald, Tailwind, and Defog, but I just don't think all that's worth using him over any of the above Pokemon. Unless I see some good arguments stating otherwise, I don't think Mantine deserves to be ranked.

 

[Jukain]

Hmm don't really feel like doing a detailed explanation but I like Momo in C+ or maybe C and Mantine in C-/D.

I think Clef's time in A+ should be over now. Simply put, it's really not that good. CM Magic Guard is excellent but difficult to fit into a team and honestly not that difficult to prevent from sweeping for a typical team, with stuff like Bisharp, Taunt/Flash Cannon Tran, Steel move Aegi, Charizard X, Sludge Wave Lando, Excadrill, Mega Maw, Mega Scizor, Talonflame, Mega Venu, Clear Smog Amoon...despite different coverage and w/e to hit certain things I just feel like there are so many matchups where the presence of certain threats is obstructing a Clefable sweep. Unaware and MG SR 2 attacks defensive sets are good, but not necessarily outstanding. Clef really just doesn't cut it for A+ anymore tbh.

The one thing that dissuades me from pushing Latios to A+ is the dominance of things like Aegi, Mega Maw, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, and Tyranitar that are enormous roadblocks to it/can Pursuit trap it. I mean it's definitely pretty damn good but the Pursuit trapping issue is to the point where I have it for a Keldeo or Landorus check, but I can't even rely on it because it ends up Pursuited or they have Icy Wind/Knock Off respectively. Like HP Fire has gotten some recent popularity to bypass Steel-type checks/counters, but that doesn't beat Aegi or Tar, and I just feel like Latios is sorta vulnerable and not that difficult t check/counter. Still A.

fwiw: I think Tini and Weavile are B-...maybe B for Weavile. Tini is really overrated...stuff like Chomp, TTar, and Zard X are common and Band isn't hard to take advantage of/revenge kill for offensive teams with all kinds of Waters and such, or even obscene to take on for stall as it's walled by Zard X. It has nowhere near the presence in the tier or viability of the B Ranks, like Mega Manectic is a fast momentum source, Thundy check/offensive threat, Torn-T is a source of momentum and solid Lando-I check/decent Keldeo check, Mega Hera annihilates defensive teams without Gliscor, Amoon should be B+, Sylveon should be B- or lower, Mew is a good stall breaker, Cune is a remarkably consistent CM sweeper and a defensive juggernaut...I can't even begin to compare Victini to these Pokemon. Weavile also just seems incomparable, although it's pretty anti-meta actually and has a lot of positives, like Speed, Knock Off, Pursuit, priority...I could maybe see it pushed up but there's absolutely no way Victini should be.

 

[MilkyWay]

1.) Those calcs aren't even accurate since Talonflame runs some HP EVs. It should look something like this:

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 107-126 (34.6 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If it's a Bulk Up set (don't know the spread off the top of my head) there's no way in hell you're winning, and you're set up bait.

2.) Talonflame can just Roost up as you're Ice Sharding it so you still lose.

3.) you can't KO Talonflame after SR with your Life Orb boosted Priority, which is fucking sad.

4.) E-Speed does make Luke better since it makes it harder to revenge and hits neutral targets harder than your neutral Ice Shard. Also priority matters a fuck ton in the this meta (why else would something as fast as Weavile carry a priority move?).

5.) Luke can get past Aegislash because Earthquake does not make contact, which means you don't have to play guessing games if you're carrying it.

6.) The speed doesn't matter since you lose to several significant threats like Keldeo and Greninja that Luke can get past anyway.

7.) Luke's resists give him chances to set up that Weavile doesn't have and his ability can give him a free boost against Knock Off happy opponents like Bisharp (which Luke counters and Weavile doesn't, another HUGE plus for Luke). Hilariously, Luke can check you if you're Knock Off happy and easily beats you otherwise if you're not running Low Kick.

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 235-277 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 201-238 (71.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your Life Orb recoil or SR damage means you dead bro.

8.) Just for fun.
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 64-76 (22.7 - 27%) -- 43% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 86-102 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 50.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 77-91 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 131-155 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

Yeah, totally can't switch into shit at all.
(An Outraging Garchomp is set up bait if you come in after something dies, btw)

There are so many things wrong with this post that I dont even know where to begin.

1. Weavile's Knock Off does about 50% to 252hp +1 def Talonflame so you're not really set up bait. If it keeps trying to roost you could also Swords Dance as well. And Talonflame could Roost once it's item is lost, but you could predict that and Swords Dance. Also Talonflame has a lot of different ev spreads so i just chose the standard one. Anyways, the original point I made is that Talonflame doesnt have to be dead for Weavile to sweep, just weakened. I never said Weavile could beat it 1v1.

2. Ice Shard would go before Roost for the same reason it would go before Brave Bird. So it would either die before it could Roost, and if it didnt die you shouldnt be ice sharding in the first place. Also, as I said before, it would come down to predicting a Roost and a Swords Dance, if the Talonflame isn't banded in the first place.

3. I never said I could OHKO it after Stealth Rock. The original point was that Weavile could finish off a weakened Talonflame so it wouldnt prevent its sweep.

4. Even though you literally just stated that Weavile has Ice Shard, you seem to be forgetting that Weavile has Ice Shard, which is priority. Meaning that Weavile is also "hard to revenge" like Lucario. So Lucario cannot be way better than Weavile for having the same thing (which is priority). And yes, E-Speed hits slightly harder than Ice Shard. It also has a +2 priority, but Weavile is literally the fastest pokemon that uses priority so +2 opposed to +1 really never makes a difference.

5. Lucario can get past a weakened Aegilash, not Aegilash, if it chooses to run Earthquake. Lucario's Adamant, Life Orb, max attack does at most 71.2% to 252hp Aegilash. Aegilash will then vaporize you with Sacred Sword. Weavile has a 50% chance to OHKO 252hp Aegilash after Stealth Rock, which Lucario can never do without a crit. And if Aegilash does Kings Shield, Weavile could either Swords Dance, or take the drop in attack and still beat a weakened Aegilash.

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 195-231 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-328 (85.1 - 101.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

6. The difference between a base 125 and base 90 speed doesnt matter!?! Have you ever even played on Pokemon Showdown??? And seriously, neither of them beat Keldeo or Greninja unless they are weakened. Keldeo will end Lucario's life with Secret Sword and Greninja can OHKO a completely healthy Lucario 68.8% of the time. But, Weavile will always beat Greninja as long as it doesnt resist Dark.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 558-656 (198.5 - 233.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 265-313 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

7. By no means is Lucario a counter to Bisharp, it has a great chance of dying from the combination of Knock Off + Sucker Punch before it can even move.

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 148-174 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 121-144 (43 - 51.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO

Also, why does it matter if Lucario can beat Weavile? That is mostly irrelevant to viability since neither of these guys are that common in the ou metagame. Many pokemon can beat Deoxys-D one on one yet Deoxsy-D is still S rank. Also, if Weavile was running Low Kick, it would be a guaranteed OHKO on Lucario.

8. You are missing my point. My point was not that you cant take those hits, but that you cant do anything to these pokemon. For example, Landorus-T destroy you with Earthquake after you switch in on Knock Off unless you are running Ice punch. Venusaur will either use Leech Seed, Hidden Power Fire, Earthquake, or Sleep Powder after you switch in on Giga Drain. And Garchomp will probably 2HKO you with Outrage (depends on the set) or Earthquake you if it hit you with Dragon Claw instead of Outrage. The point is that you can happily switch in on your many resists, but cant actually beat the pokemon you are switching in on.

Your arguments are flawed and bias. Even if Weavile deserves B- rank you would still be wrong on the majority of your points.

Also why do you keep bringing up Lucario? I only brought it up in the first place to compare Weavile to something similar to it...

 

[Nog]

I use Mantine more than anyone else in this thread guaranteed so I'll post my thoughts.

Pros:

- Walls popular offensive threats such as Keldeo, Landorus, Mega Charizard Y, and more
- Solid Defog user and pairs well with common stall Pokemon like Chansey and Mega Venusaur
- Uncommon as of yet and is less likely to be prepared for
- Extremely hipster :]

Cons:

- No reliable recovery
- Shallow move pool as opposed to other Defog users or Water types

Pretty much the basic breakdown. It performs well on every stall team I use it on and is such a good answer to Landorus allowing it to not be able to stall break as well as it had hoped. Mantine has the exact stats of Skarmory, just from a special side rather than a physical and plays pretty much the exact same. Running Mantine means you need a cleric (most stall teams already run this) and you pretty much need to run an Unaware Clefable as well because Quagsire is out of the picture. Not sure how the community will respond to this beast but I can vouch all day long for it. C- if real.

 

[alexwolf]

Update time:

Gliscor: B+ ---> A-
Amoonguss: B ---> B+
Dragonite: Stays in A
Hippowdon: Stays in A
Victini: Stays in B-
Weavile: Stays in B-
Arcanine: Unranked ---> C-
Mantine: Unranked ---> C-
Alomomola: Unranked ---> C

Gliscor has been agreed by all to rise so no need for any explanations.

Amoonguss takes on very important threats, such as Aegislash, Thundurus, Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, Clefable, Breloom, Mega Mawile, Terrakion, and Gengar, while being one of the best options for a bulky Grass-type on teams that have already used their Mega slot. Spore and Clear Smog make it almost impossible to set up on, so that's a plus too. It's really good right now, and B+ reflects this better than B.

Dragonite just barely didn't made it to A+. Its biggest flaws as an offensive threat is SR weakness, relatively low Speed, and reliance on Outrage to do damage, which can be taken advantage off with numerous ways (Fairy-types, Steel-types, revenge killers, priority), as well as competition with Charizard X as an offensive Dragon Dance user. As a defensive threat, the SR weakness is its only really big flow, as similarly to Mandibuzz, a Pokemon that also resides in A rank, Dragonite checks or counters a ton of things, has excellent mixed bulk, has reliable recovery, and is not easy to set up on. However, SR weakness really sucks on a primarily defensive Pokemon, especially in such a Deo-D and Deo-S ridden metagame, where SR is very easy to keep up.

Hippowdon stays in A because even though its a great wall and sand inducer, it's a bad SR setter that can't keep up SR against any team with a decent Defog user (Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Latios, you name it) and is a very passive Pokemon in general, which makes it easy to overwhelm and take advantage off.

Victini and Weavile stay in B- for the time being simple because they aren't good and reliable enough at doing their jobs, while also having more flaws than most of the B rank Pokemon. Also, most tour players i talked with don't like either of those Pokemon for B rank, and the arguments here haven't been very convincing either. I can personally attest to Victini being more suited to B- than B after using it extensively the last week, its stallbreaking set can be effective against stall teams but usually needs a lot of prediction and is hard walled if stall has Mega Zard X or Gliscor, both excellent Pokemon on stall. It is also kinda dead weight against offensive teams outside of the surprise burn against Bisharp and the ability to threaten Aegislash with a OHKO on 1 v 1 situations.

As for Arcanine, Alomomola, and Mantine, all the arguments about them are in the current page so check them out if you want.


Pokemon to discuss

Mega Mawile rising to S
Tornadus-T rising to B+
Mega Pinsir dropping to A
Mega Aggron rising to B-
Clefable dropping to A

 

[Askeia]

Why use mantine over Gyarados though? Gyara has marginally less special bulk, much better physical bulk, much better movepool. the only things mantine really has over it is defog and water absorb. Mantine isn't particularly a good defogger by any means, and it's not like as if defensive gyara cares about water attacks in the first place

 

[skies]

• Mega Mawile rising to S

Mega Mawile is extremely difficult to switch into, and is actually not extremely difficult, it is nearly impossible to safely switch into Mawile. It often runs Sub + Focus Punch, so Steel-types can be handled on the switch, and it is surprisingly versatile, with moves such as Play Rough, Sucker Punch, Fire Fang, Knock Off, Focus Punch, and utility in Substitute. It cannot safely be switched into, however, its Speed really sucks. This is Mega Mawile's main flaw, and it also has a severe weakness to Earthquake and Fire Blast, two extremely common moves. And despite all the nice things I've said about Mega Mawile, I don't believe it should move up to S Rank. It's perfectly fine where it is, just for a brief run down:
Pros:

• Nearly impossible to switch into.
• Fantastic typing.
• Decent bulk.
• Somewhat versatile.
• Priority.
• High-powered attacks.

Cons:

• Slow.
• If using Sucker Punch, very easy to play around.
• Weaknesses to common attacks.

Its pros are much better than its cons, but it should definitely stay in A+ Rank. I probably missed something but w/e n____n

Anyways, I don't agree with Clefable dropping, will write about later. Also, I'm going to make a post on Landorus dropping from S to A+ in a bit n_n.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Now, for that comparison you were after. Moltress is currently D rank, and I can definitely say with confidence that Arcanine is much better than it. Moltress has an almost inexcusable 4x SR weakness which basically completely destroys any defensive ability it may have otherwise had, as a single double switch with rocks up renders it useless. This isn't the case with Arcanine, as it can counter the things it's meant to even with rocks up and only 2x is much more manageable.

I like Arcanine and think that it should get a little more respect, but don't make Moltres sound worse than it really is. The Stealth Rock weakness is bad, but it's not like Stealth Rock is impossible to remove. You have more than enough viable Defog users around to keep it off the field, and Excadrill is a fantastic spinner. Besides, Moltres can still take on some things even with Stealth Rock up. For instance, Mega Mawile's Play Rough only does 46.7% max to specially defensive Moltres, so Moltres can switch in and tank one before healing back up. If it Swords Dances, Moltres can burn it before it can move and heal up after the +2 Play Rough.

Might as well use this opportunity to give a little support to Moltres moving back up into the C's. I mentioned this in the Victory Road version of this thread, but either no one paid attention or they thought my case wasn't strong enough for it, so I'll make a new case for Moltres. The single biggest flaw that everyone is probably aware of regarding Moltres is its 4x Stealth Rock weakness, but keep in mind that this is just a nomination for C Rank or so. Pokemon in those ranks are allowed to require significant support. That said, once hazards are off the field, Moltres makes a solid check or counter to a huge number of threats. I have used it on a couple of stall teams, and it seems that I'm constantly tempted to throw Moltres on simply because it checks so much stuff that I'd otherwise have trouble with. The set I'm talking about in particular is a specially defensive spread of 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe with Calm, enough speed to beat all Mega Mawile and the rest in special bulk. The moves are usually something like Flamethrower / Will-O-Wisp / Roost / Roar, but that last moveslot can change from time to time. Literally the only thing keeping me from using it more is that the Stealth Rock weakness can really get in the way sometimes, but even as a fairly mediocre player myself, I'm usually able to keep it off the field the majority of the time so that Moltres can do its job. Here's how Moltres does against some of the top threats. I've left out obvious losses like Thundurus and Gyarados.

Hide

S

Aegislash: Tank sets can't even break 40% with Shadow Ball, and even Life Orb sets have a very minimal chance to break 50%. If the opponent doesn't have Head Smash, then they need Stealth Rock down to have any chance of winning with Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak. SubToxic hurts, but that's kind of true for a lot of defensive things, lol.

Charizard X: Moltres isn't built to take on this guy. Still, it can take a +1 Adamant Dragon Claw from offensive variants and Roar it away or poison it or something, which helps a little.

Deoxys-S: As long as Moltres is at pretty high health, it can switch in and tank 2 Psycho Boosts whilst healing itself with Roost.

Landorus: Outside of Rock Slide I guess, Moltres shuts down non-Calm Mind Landorus nicely. Even Sludge Wave can't break 40%. Calm Mind sets have a chance to 2HKO Moltres from full health, but it can at least take a hit and phaze Landorus away or burn/poison it.

A+

Bisharp: If you run more speed investment (96 EVs, I believe), you can outspeed Adamant Bisharp and burn it before it can move. You still can't really switch directly into it safely, though.

Clefable: CM Clefable with Moonblast + Flamethrower is completely shut down. I can Roar it away early in the game, and if I get into last Pokemon situations, Moltres can PP stall with Pressure. Even Stored Power sets can't even 2HKO until they have 3 Calm Minds, so it's possible to play around those.

Excadrill: You lose to Rock Slide variants, but a few don't carry the move, in which case Moltres outright wins.

Garchomp: If you can switch in on Earthquake or Stealth Rock or something, you can tank an Outrage, burn Garchomp, and tank a second Outrage before Roosting. However, you have to be at high health to do this, and you still lose to those with Swords Dance, Rock coverage, or Life Orb (although none are used majority of Garchomp).

Mega Mawile: As I mentioned earlier, Moltres can switch in and beat Mega Mawile even with Stealth Rock up.

Mega Scizor: Worst case scenario, Moltres loses its Leftovers to Knock Off and then gets a free Roost or Will-O-Wisp, or it just outright KOs with Flamethrower.

Venusaur: Moltres can burn Venusaur and slowly wear it down with Flamethrower while Roosting off what little damage Venusaur can do in return.

A

Charizard Y: Moltres completely curbstomps Charizard Y.

Dragonite: Moltres generally loses to Dragonite. It can take a +1 Dragon Claw and burn in return, but Lum Berry often messes with that. However, it does escape the 2HKO from CBBNite's Dragon Claw and burns, crippling it for the rest of the match.

Ferrothorn: Probably don't have to explain this one.

Gengar: Gengar needs significant prior damage to 2HKO with Sludge Bomb, even with a Life Orb. SubWoW + Taunt sets fail to guarantee even a 4HKO with Shadow Ball, while Moltres easily 2HKOs with Flamethrower.

Heatran: Unless it's running Ancient Power, Moltres can just phaze it away or PP stall it with Pressure.

Hippowdon: These often do run Rock coverage, but if they don't, they can only really poison Moltres or phaze it away. You can block Toxic if you run Substitute > Roar, and even in the case of Whirlwind, you can always burn or poison it and start wearing Hippowdon down.

Landorus-T: Most of these run Rock coverage, but those that don't are easily switched into and burned.

Mandibuzz: Moltres outspeed Mandibuzz's Taunt and burns or poisons it before wearing it down between that and Flamethrower. Toxic and Whirlwind can hurt, but Substitute again blocks Toxic, and neither are super common on Mandibuzz.

Latias: Although not guaranteed, Moltres can possibly win 1-on-1. LO Psyshock fails to 2HKO a full health Moltres, although it does come close. Draco Meteor will also fail to 2HKO if Moltres is healthy. As long as Moltres is healthy enough, it can sort of check any Latias that lacks Thunderbolt.

Rotom-W: Moltres can actually stall out defensive Rotom-W's Hydro Pump PP with Pressure, after which Rotom-W will be forced to use a pretty weak Volt Switch.

Terrakion: Moltres get pummeled by Stone Edge, but since even Choice Band Terrakion fails to 2HKO with Close Combat, it can at least keep it from spamming is Fighting STAB all over your team.

A-

Breloom: Rock Tomb is pretty common, but outside of that, Moltres hard walls Breloom once something else has taken the sleep.

Chansey: As long as Chansey doesn't have Toxic, Moltres can easily stall it out. Will-O-Wisp and Toxic force Chansey to burn through Heal Bell PP if it wants to stay alive without switching out, and Moltres easily PP stalls Seismic Toss and such.

Mamoswine: You have to be careful about bringing Moltres directly into Mamoswine, but it can take a LO Icicle Crash (and Icicle Spear, as long as it isn't 5 hits) and burn Mamoswine, which makes it far easier for the rest of your team to handle.

Skarmory: Kinda like Ferrothorn, just another defensive Steel that Moltres smashes.

So as you can see, there are quite a few Pokemon in the S and A Ranks that Moltres does great against (such as Aegislash, Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, Mega Charizard Y, and non-Calm Mind Landorus), there are some that Moltres can still check depending on the opponent's set (although some examples are really situational). The single greatest problem with Moltres is, as mentioned before, its 4x Stealth Rock weakness. If Stealth Rock is down, Moltres can struggle to counter some of the things it would otherwise beat with ease. However, even though this is a huge thorn in Moltres's side, it isn't the end of the world. We have viable Defog users aplenty that can work alongside it and guarantee that Stealth Rock will be removed, and Excadrill is an option if you're using it on a more balanced team rather than stall. In addition, we have things like the Mega Charizards and Mega Pinsir in high ranks that are also 4x Stealth Rock weak in at least one of their forms while other Pokemon such as Thundurus are 2x weak to the move and still ranked high, so it's obvious that being weak to Stealth Rock doesn't instantly kill something's rank. Due to the solid number of threats that Moltres can handle despite the diligent Rapid Spin or Defog support it requires, I want to nominate Moltres for C- Rank at the very least (although my personal preference would be C). It doesn't have an enormous niche, but it certainly is better than D Rank.

As far as Mantine goes, I've already talked it to death in the OU analysis index thread. I just don't see any serious reason to use one. I'd probably really like it if it had Roost or something, but it doesn't. As a special wall, it doesn't even beat all the stuff that it's supposed to depending on the sets that Mantine and its opponent are running. As a Defogger, it's weak to Stealth Rock and doesn't have reliable recovery to make up for it. I honestly think it should be no higher than D Rank if you have to rank it. Mantine might have a small niche in Defogging and sort of checking stuff like Keldeo and Landorus (both of whom it really can't even counter as well as you'd think it could), but it's such a small niche that it really doesn't need to be any higher.

EDIT: Well, alexwolf beat me by a few minutes. Oh well, keep this post in mind for the next update.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm just going to say that I am sad that Gary is no longer running this thread because there has been a lot of grade inflation since he left. He had the balls to say that something isn't that good, and now it just seems like everyone is trying to make every Pokemon look awesome.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

I believe MegaMawile should move to S because:
1. It has unbelieveable power being able 1hko most of the meta with just play rough and take on the rest with coverage. Skarmory and other steels killed by fire fang or focus punch. Iron head destroys mega Venu.
2. It can further boost this power with sword dance
3. Its slow, but has priority in Sucker Punch which has great coverage with play rough.
4. Its bulk is pretty good. 50 125 95. Add on intimidate. It can take any nuetral attack and some super effective ones.
5. Its only safe switch ins are fire types that have SR weakness

I believe Mega Pinsir should stay
1. It is an incredible powerhouse with good speed.
2. Anything faster than it can be dealt with by quick attack or feint.
3. It also has great bulk 65 120 90
4. Its common counters are limited to Skarmory, Zapdos, Thunderus, Rotom-W Granted they are all pretty common, but the later 2 lack recovery and can be worn down. Skarm can be trapped by Magenzone. And all can generally be worn down by birdspam. Mega Pinsir really only needs them at half health to kill them.

 

[Valmanway]

I think Mega Mawile going S Rank is a little much. Sure, she has some variety with her sets, sure, she has the highest Attack stat in the game (factoring in Huge Power), and sure, she's pretty much the bane of stall's existence, but I'm not too sure about her moving up to S Rank. First, while her Fairy / Steel typing is pretty good, it leaves her with common Ground and Fire weaknesses, and her low Speed basically forces her to run Sucker Punch if she wants to sweep offensive teams anytime soon. Being slow and vulnerable to burns is a recipe for disaster for a physical attacker, and with Will-O-Wisp and Scald as popular as they are, Mega Mawile will either be forced to switch or have the devil's luck that she doesn't get burnt. Rotom-W, Heatran, Mega Charizard X, Keldeo, Manaphy, Politoed, Slowbro, and more can really pressure Mega Mawile with burns, and she has no defense against them unless she's behind a sub in advance, so either she has to predict the switch and set up a sub, or she has to beat a Pokemon while the sub is intact; a scenario not easily made when against an offensive or balanced team. Physical walls such as Hippowdon and Skarmory can avoid a 2HKO from unboosted hits, and can Roar/Whirlwind her out and will force her to set up all over again.

tl;dr Mega Mawile is fantastic when against stall, but she's shaky when against offensive and balanced teams, and certainly not without some flaws that keep her out of S Rank. I say keep her A+ Rank.

 

[Aragorn the King]

I'm just going to say that I am sad that Gary is no longer running this thread because there has been a lot of grade inflation since he left. He had the balls to say that something isn't that good, and now it just seems like everyone is trying to make every Pokemon look awesome.

Don't just call alex/nog out; have some substance. What Pokemon do you think were incorrectly placed? All arguments will be responded to, but atm you don't really have an argument.

Mega Mawile rising to S: It's too slow and frail to be S rank. It's a monster, but it doesn't rule the metagame completely.

Tornadus-T rising to B+: It's not mandatory on rain; it's simply a good choice. However, it often fights its position with an Electric-type. Its position on rain teams is too much for B rank. However, as a standalone AV Pokemon, it's borderline B+. Defensively, it's very similar to Zapdos, as it takes hits based often on its typing, and then hits back hard. However, it has more bulk and speed in exchange for power. Offensively, it is nowhere near as good as Kabutops; however, it is similar to Scizor and Gyarados. All three are Pokemon that are good but face fierce competition. Therefore I think it should move up.

Mega Pinsir dropping to A: It's very easily revenge killer and easy to wall, granted that you pack a dedicated counter. The one think making me think it belongs in A+ is that you need a dedicated counter if you're running a defensive team (maybe dedicated is too strong a word. However, Ttar, Zappy, Rhyperior, etc wouldn't be as good without Pinsir). However, it's kinda feeling miniature Volcarona syndrome... the metagame is simply hostile to it. I think it should drop to A.

Mega Aggron rising to B-: Very borderline. It's very similar to Rhyperior; same ability, same stat distribution. However, in exchange for a better typing and more bulk, it costs a mega slot. It also only has one set. Not sure.

Clefable dropping to A: It's too much of a threat for BO teams. You really need a nuke, a strong Poison move, or a strong Steel move, or it will ruin your day.

I also agree with AgentGibbs in that Moltres should get a move up, for every reason he said.

 

[TFL]

• Mega Mawile rising to S

Mega Mawile is extremely difficult to switch into, and is actually not extremely difficult, it is nearly impossible to safely switch into Mawile. It often runs Sub + Focus Punch, so Steel-types can be handled on the switch, and it is surprisingly versatile, with moves such as Play Rough, Sucker Punch, Fire Fang, Knock Off, Focus Punch, and utility in Substitute. It cannot safely be switched into, however, its Speed really sucks. This is Mega Mawile's main flaw, and it also has a severe weakness to Earthquake and Fire Blast, two extremely common moves. And despite all the nice things I've said about Mega Mawile, I don't believe it should move up to S Rank. It's perfectly fine where it is, just for a brief run down:
Pros:

• Nearly impossible to switch into.
• Fantastic typing.
• Decent bulk.
• Somewhat versatile.
• Priority.
• High-powered attacks.

Cons:

• Slow.
• If using Sucker Punch, very easy to play around.
• Weaknesses to common attacks.

Its pros are much better than its cons, but it should definitely stay in A+ Rank. I probably missed something but w/e n____n

Anyways, I don't agree with Clefable dropping, will write about later. Also, I'm going to make a post on Landorus dropping from S to A+ in a bit n_n.

I'm a defensive player first and foremost and would support both Landorus-i and Mega Mawile for S rank. They are huge roadblocks for non offense teams, so much so that crap like Moltres, Arcanine, and Mantine are getting ranked because of their presence. If you aren't really prepared for them, you are gonna be losing a lot of matches. And, unlike most stall breakers, they are both pretty good vs offensive teams. They bring everything to the table and leave nothing behind, don't see why they shouldn't be S.
Supporting

-> S

 

[Nog]

Don't just call alex/nog out; have some substance. What Pokemon do you think were incorrectly placed? All arguments will be responded to, but atm you don't really have an argument.

Just like to point out that I don't feel called out at all. I miss grant as well because he was a real nigga, but tbh I pretty much speak my mind if you make shit arguments or use trash pokes. Sorry for derail but I needed to end this before it began.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Just like to point out that I don't feel called out at all. I miss grant as well because he was a real nigga, but tbh I pretty much speak my mind if you make shit arguments or use trash pokes. Sorry for derail but I needed to end this before it began.

Yeah, I miss him too. His post just seemed out of place in this thread. Sorry if I was unnecessarily defending you :P

Carry on :)

 

[Jacks0n]

Yeh I have already mad a post for mega mawhile to go to S. I really think it should move up. Its got amazing sets in sd and sub, can get past its checks with coveredge, and as well as being the besy physical wallbreaker in the tier , it does a ton against offence. Mega mawhile is a definant S rank pokemon.

 

[Pagoose]

What does Mantine have over Gyarados? Legitimately curious, I cannot think of anything except water absorb and defog. Gyarados has slightly worse special defense but almost double the defense, as well as decent offensive presence due to 125 base attack.

Only 2.1% worse special defense:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 87-103 (26 - 30.8%) -- 4.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 110-130 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
But nearly double the defense:
-1 252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 316-374 (94.6 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

[Jaiho]

What does Mantine have over Gyarados? Legitimately curious, I cannot think of anything except water absorb and defog. Gyarados has slightly worse special defense but almost double the defense, as well as decent offensive presence due to 125 base attack.

Only 2.1% worse special defense:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 87-103 (26 - 30.8%) -- 4.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gyarados: 110-130 (27.9 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
But nearly double the defense:
-1 252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 316-374 (94.6 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

defog and roost is about it

 

[Valmanway]

defog and roost is about it

Mantine doesn't even get Roost.

 

[MilkyWay]

Mega Mawile should stay at A+. It is bulky, strong, has good moves, a nice defensive typing, a few good sets, but it way too slow for S and is held back greatly by this. Sure, it can play around its speed by using Sucker Punch. But honestly a base 80 move that isnt STAB isnt exceptionally powerful, even coming from Mega Mawile. Therefore, sucker punch doesnt really solve its speed problems and can be played around easily, especially by will-o-wisp users. While Mega Mawile is great and all, its speed just holds it back too much. A+ is fine

 

[Nog]

yeah wtf gamefreak no roost, help me out here pls :[ anyway type immunity and hazard control are both huge when talking about stall. Defog allows you to alleviate pressure off of another one of your teammates who generally has it as well and Water Absorb allows you to gain HP every time they use a water move. Another key thing is Scald. Mantine can cripple physical attackers, wall special attackers, and Toxic nuisances all the while supporting its teammates defensive synergy wise. No one really cares about an offensive presence when using full stall so that point is irrelevant. Lastly I don't really see the reason why you all are arguing Gyarados vs Mantine when they don't perform the same roles and typically aren't even on the same team archetype. The only correlation I see is same typing, which is like comparing Scizor to Genesect ?_?

 

[Pagoose]

He means alomomola.

yeah wtf gamefreak no roost, help me out here pls :[ anyway type immunity and hazard control are both huge when talking about stall. Defog allows you to alleviate pressure off of another one of your teammates who generally has it as well and Water Absorb allows you to gain HP every time they use a water move. Another key thing is Scald. Mantine can cripple physical attackers, wall special attackers, and Toxic nuisances all the while supporting its teammates defensive synergy wise. No one really cares about an offensive presence when using full stall so that point is irrelevant. Lastly I don't really see the reason why you all are arguing Gyarados vs Mantine when they don't perform the same roles and typically aren't even on the same team archetype. The only correlation I see is same typing, which is like comparing Scizor to Genesect ?_?

Yeah I wasn't arguing for it to go down or anything I just didn't know what it did lol.

 

[Salemance]

I'm confused, we can discuss Arcanine and alomomola on the next few pages or they were done on previous ones?

On to other topics:

Every week there seems to be something being proposed to S Rank and surprise surprise it is Mega Mawile...again. While I can not deny this three mouthed demon is something that must be feared, she is not S Rank worthy. She is very comparable to her fellow A+ mon Azumarill in many ways and moving M Maw above Azu when the are neither able to outclassed one another is a little ridiculous. They are both held back by being slow creatures often being held back by being susceptible to the favored status of burns. M Maw defeats Azu in raw power, but one would be wise to remember outside of a somewhat equal typing, that's all it has over the blue bunny.

It nullifies all of its fairy weaknesses and one steel to be left with only two weaknesses which doesn't sound bad right? You'd be right if those two weaknesses were not the omnibus present Fire and Ground attacks which have often been seen as some of the greatest offensives moves possible. They are literally the bare coverage moves to abuse as the are indespensible in aiding your pokemon to better cover the various threats it will find itself against, and the fact M Maw is weak to them means that anything could have a chance at hurting it. Many would say this is where the non Megan's ability in intimidate comes in, but a one trick pony with horrendous defended even when factoring intimidate in. Meaning when it can get in, it will be hit hard (even some resisted hits can take a pretty chunk off).

Really, I understand M Maw is one of the most prolific wallbreakers in the tier, but it is held back by being unable to account for its susceptibility to common moves and under non sufficient bulk it is saddled with. Sucker Punch is a topic I may get into later but its pros and cons have been brought up enough through Bisharp alone so its not needed to be brought up much further outside of the tortureish mind games it induces on your opponent.


Then Mega Pinsir moving down to A+? I find a tad silly tbt. It, unlike Char Y who was recently dropped, is not so easily revenged as it is capable of running a priority move almost equal to that of a non STABed E-Speed. It fits a similar mold to Azure and M Maw actually in the fact that they themselves are held back by speed and mitigate it through typing, Pinsir is saddled with horrendous typing mitigated by speed while all three are saved by their abilities.

Pinsir horrendously hard to wall at times with the might of a +2 Return/Frustration holding over your head but it can be helped sedated by weaknesses to fire, ice, rock, and electric type attack to where it may be begged, what may not be able to hit him and why isn't he ranked below those two physical wallbreakers?

In comparison to M Maw, it comes down to two things: it is at a higher speed tier so it may be able to hit stuff with something other than priority in the form of an almost 200 BP move and the fact it has a reliable form of recovery. While M Maw's S-Punch hits for considerably more, it is so unreliable to the point that it might be playing a game of throwing darts at a board to see if it will succeed this turn. With it only working on the turn your opponent attacks, means that in essence, one has given his opponent a free turn to sub and or set up while Mega Pinsir is able to hit without fail at his desired target. The two of them both occupy desirable niches as physical wallbreakers (with one being possibly the strongest physical attacker in our tier while the other is one of the strongest physical wallbreakers in the game with the greatest speed of any of them) makes them both seem capable of occupying the same rank in my eyes. Hope it all made some sense to y'all there.


Only other one I would like to discuss (based on my use) besides a possible Arcanine is Meggron going to B-. In that ranking, similar Mega's have moved up as they themselves have been seen as better than initiatlly suspected. While one could be said the same for Meggron, it might be more difficult to get him to B- than the others. The Steel Titan can tank and shrug off most physical attackers from not even being 2HKOed by +2 Pinsir EQ but the titan is not nearly as gifted as Hippowdon in the regard of being blessed with reliable recovery. Rest and Sleep Talk is indeed a great tool to abuse for recovery, but altogether it is very unreliable at times having to wait two turns to heal while possibly giving the opponent time to set up to kill you all the faster.

If Meggron does go up, it will probably be based on how well it is capable of functioning with a semi reliable form of recovery in my mind.




And that's all I got for now. Lot more than I thought I would start with.

EDIT: Stupid phone and misspellings. To think I wanted to post and then sleep...

 

[trc]

I'm confused, we can discuss Arcanine and alomomola on the next few pages or they were done on previous ones?

They were discussed on previous pages and both moved up due to the discussion regarding them. I'll quote the posts for reference:

Arcanine:

Let's get something straight; Arc was blacklisted basically at the start of the gen and the circumstances have greatly changed since then. I'd be willing to bet that the reasons for that occurrence were very far from being valid right now because Arcanine has a nearly competition-free niche in being virtually the only true counter to Mega Mawile. Mega Venusaur isn't as good because it doesn't usually have much to hit Mawile with for starters, and it also gets OHKO'd by a +2 Iron Head after SR, which makes it a bit shaky and Venu is often overloaded making it easy to wear down. Arc is actually underrated as a bulky fire-type with access to recovery, a great ability in Intimidate, and priority. It can cripple switch-ins with WoW and finish off weakened foes with E-Speed, which is actually surprisingly useful for Stall teams.

I have a replay here against one of the most common modern HO teams (Deo/Sharp/Aegi/Lando/Thundy/Mawile) in which Arcanine was easily the MVP; he crippled Aegi with WoW, rendered Mawile dead weight and eliminated it, and finished off two big threats with E-Speed in dire circumstances:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-135852796

He is a legitimate option for a member of a FWG stall core and so far I've in many cases preferred him over Heatran because of access to reliable recovery, intimidate, priority, and not getting destroyed by SubPunch Mawile sets. It can also invest in a small amount of speed to outspeed Bisharp so it can get in a WoW or Blitz before it can strike.

Arcanine @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Extreme Speed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

Now, for that comparison you were after. Moltress is currently D rank, and I can definitely say with confidence that Arcanine is much better than it. Moltress has an almost inexcusable 4x SR weakness which basically completely destroys any defensive ability it may have otherwise had, as a single double switch with rocks up renders it useless. This isn't the case with Arcanine, as it can counter the things it's meant to even with rocks up and only 2x is much more manageable. Furthermore, we see other things like Gourgeist-Small in C, Gastrodon and Toxicroak in C- and Snorlax in D and there's just no way that any of those can claim to have a more important role than what Arcanine can fill. You yourself have had experience with "Stalltini", and Arcanine is basically a more reliable version of that because of having access to recovery, intimidate, and not having an extra psychic typing which is generally a burden. Arcanine for C-.

Alomomola:

What would people think about ranking Alomomola and/or Mantine. Both are borderline analysis worthy (Mega Luvdisc is getting one btw), so they're clearly worth at least the D rank. Alomomola is very useful as a Wish passer, it can Mirror Coat massive Special Attacks for the KO, and it recovers 33% of its health simply by switching out. It easily fits in FWG cores, and also works great with other Regenerator Pokemon, like Amoonguss. Mantine, on the other hand, is a niche Defogger that is able to very easily beat Landorus, Mega Charizard-Y, Keldeo, and other Special attackers. It's nice also as it has two immunities and lacks the nasty Grass weakness that most Water-types have. Right now I'm thinking C rank for Alomomola and D rank for Mantine, but I'm not sure.

In general though, I'd like to dissuade the use of Mirror Coat on Alomomola. Mirror Coat was used on a balance team by Branflakes to surprise Mega Charizard Y by surviving a Solar Beam and OHKOing it back, helping against what was a major team problem. However, is is actually a rather poor choice in practice. The typical stall / balance teams Alomomola is found on should be prepared for general special attackers with their other teamslots, so the use of Mirror Coat just takes away from either of Scald or Protect (Toxic and Wish are mandatory). By not using Scald, you have no way of preventing Mega Mawile and Mega Scizor from setting up all over you, which is incredibly important, and without Protect, you lose out on guaranteed Wishes, extra Leftovers recovery, the ability to solidly Toxic stall the likes of Garchomp / Excadrill, and a way of scouting for moves from possible Choice Band / Specs / Scarf user, all for something that can be easily covered by another teamslot! However, something worth giving up these moves for that I'd like to advocate is Magic Coat. Magic Coat really annoys hazard leads such as Garchomp and Terrakion, but particularly Deoxys-D, which can't touch it if it just spams Magic Coat, it isn't like Superpower is going to do much.

I'm also interested to see what people think about Froslass after a potential Deoxys-D ban, but that can wait a week or so ;)

 

[Jukain]

Mega Mawile is a god and easily worthy of S in my opinion. I partially speak from a defensive mindset but also from an offensive mindset; it is an absolute horror to deal with given both types of teams. Offensive teams have few if any switch-ins, defensive teams too...Mega Mawile is easily the most threatening breaker in the tier. A Pokemon with such power and dominance is easily worthy of S Rank. The only argument I'm seeing against it is its low Speed, which is like...it has extremely powerful priority, possibly SD-boosted, and can set up a Sub on forced switches and then get an easy free kill at the least. I really don't see Speed as some large crippling factor that it can be used as a sole argument. Anyways basically what TFL said, ungodly defense breaker + solid vs offense = insanely good =
S Rank.